No thank you.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| fewt Sep 13, 2011 6:45 AM EDT |
Been there done that, life has been much better since I stopped trying to follow that moving target. |
| helios Sep 13, 2011 12:10 PM EDT |
That's about right. Canonical, or at least the Ubuntu branch of Canonical has become just like any other proprietary code sweatshop. Leave your creativity at the door. "Ideas? we dun need no stinkin' ideas". "Here's the blueprint of what we want, now write it." At least applicants will know that going in the door...you might say they will work in Unity. I should be ashamed of myself for that. I'm not, but at least I know I should be. |
| fewt Sep 13, 2011 1:48 PM EDT |
Quoting:That's about right. Canonical, or at least the Ubuntu branch of Canonical has become just like any other proprietary code sweatshop. Leave your creativity at the door. "Ideas? we dun need no stinkin' ideas". Even proprietary sweat shops learn from their mistakes and ultimately deliver a product their customers want. (Examples: Vista -> Windows 7, Adobe Flash, NVidia, etc) Canonical does only what Canonical chooses, yet expects to retain a fan base ala Apple. They are bleeding users like mad (I implied this would happen in my open letter to Mark circa 9.10), and they don't seem to care. It may take a while before they lose them all, but on their current track it will happen. In the next 3-4 years if there isn't a significant change in direction and refocus on the needs of their users over new and shiny, they will be replaced by something else. Quoting:"Here's the blueprint of what we want, now write it." Yes, here is a product that sort of works, but changes every 6 months. Here is a blueprint, now write for it. Don't worry, the blueprint only changes every few days. Quoting:At least applicants will know that going in the door...you might say they will work in Unity. Indeed. All your source are belong to Canonical. Quoting:I should be ashamed of myself for that. I'm not, but at least I know I should be. Why? You didn't turn Ubuntu into a garbage salad, Mark and team did. |
| herzeleid Sep 13, 2011 2:38 PM EDT |
The anti-ubuntu hysteria seems to be reaching comic proportions. While unity in its current form is not what I'm looking for in a UI, I'm going to wait and see how it all plays out. In the meantime oneiric offers a plain gnome-fallback UI, as well as xfce, lxde, and kde 4.7 I'll check back on unity from time to time to see if it's something I can live with, but there's no panic on my part. I'm sure that if we give the unity devs as much time as we gave the kde devs to get it together, there will be something usable to show for it. |
| Grishnakh Sep 13, 2011 3:10 PM EDT |
herzeleid wrote:I'm sure that if we give the unity devs as much time as we gave the kde devs to get it together, there will be something usable to show for it. "We" didn't give the KDE devs time to get it together; tons of users defected to Gnome(2), and many like me stayed with KDE3.5.10 as long as possible. Users don't have years of extra time to wait around for unpragmatic developers to test out and fix their experimental code. That's why you're supposed to have a "stable" branch and an "experimental" branch, so that you don't screw up the workflow of users who depend on your software. Imagine what'd happen if Microsoft tried to foist some buggy POS version of Windows (buggier and more of a POS than normal), which completely broke their users' workflow. Oh right, they did; it was called "Vista", and it was a disaster, and all the users stuck with XP (and to be fair, even Vista didn't significantly change the UI from XP, it was just slower, crappier, and really buggy). Unfortunately, Linux distros don't make it nearly as easy to stick with an older version of Gnome or KDE unless you stick with an old distro that has an old kernel (and no support for newer hardware), old versions of all the other apps, an old version of Firefox, etc. For some reason, the Gnome and Unity devs (and before the KDE devs) all think that the users need to be their bug testers, not just for minor bugs but for giant rewrites too. No thanks. The KDE guys look like they might have learned their lesson, but the others obviously didn't learn from the KDE4.0 debacle. |
| Fettoosh Sep 13, 2011 3:14 PM EDT |
@herzeleid, Very well said. and agree 100% @helios, I understand your frustration, but Unity is not for me and you, it is for the masses. Give it a chance to mature and I am sure your users would love it. @fewt, Adding fuel to the fire doesn't really help or takes you nowhere. |
| fewt Sep 13, 2011 3:20 PM EDT |
Quoting:@fewt, Adding fuel to the fire doesn't really help or takes you nowhere. @Fetoosh - I'm just telling it like it is. Quoting:@helios, I understand your frustration, but Unity is not for me and you, it is for the masses. Give it a chance to mature and I am sure your users would love it. WOW, way to take being an apologist to a new level. |
| herzeleid Sep 13, 2011 5:03 PM EDT |
Let's all check back in a year and see how things played out, OK? |
| lcafiero Sep 13, 2011 5:05 PM EDT |
helios most poignantly wrote:"At least applicants will know that going in the door...you might say they will work in Unity." Ken -- Remind me to slap you for saying that, next time I see you. :-) |
| techiem2 Sep 13, 2011 5:59 PM EDT |
Quoting:Let's all check back in a year and see how things played out, OK? Or we could check back next alpha..then the next alpha..then the next alpha...then the first beta...then the next beta....since that's what everyone seems to like to blog about between *buntu releases. :P |
| Grishnakh Sep 13, 2011 8:02 PM EDT |
@herzeleid: So what are users supposed to do for the next year? Put up with a sh*tty DE, or just not use their computer at all while waiting for things to "mature"? Why should users put up with a POS DE for a year when they had something before that worked just fine for them? |
| jdixon Sep 13, 2011 9:26 PM EDT |
> Wasn't W95 supposed to be the first Windows with proper pre-emptive multi-tasking? Ubuntu users? Use 10.04. That's what it's for. What version of Ubuntu do you think I'm running on my Dell Mini 9? |
| Fettoosh Sep 13, 2011 9:29 PM EDT |
Quoting:Why should users put up with a POS DE for a year when they had something before that worked just fine for them? You are contradicting yourself. If they have something that works fine, there is no need to use the new buggy software until it matures and gets to a better shape than what they already have. |
| gus3 Sep 13, 2011 9:30 PM EDT |
Whoa....thread confusion? |
| tuxchick Sep 13, 2011 10:21 PM EDT |
No confusion, gus3, just the same old recycled apologetics. |
| vainrveenr Sep 13, 2011 11:05 PM EDT |
Quoting:Or we could check back next alpha..then the next alpha..then the next alpha...then the first beta...then the next beta....since that's what everyone seems to like to blog about between *buntu releases. :PTo a certain extent, aren't Lubuntu project developers perpetual alpha and beta testers of their own variant of Ubuntu based upon LXDE ?? The Lubuntu project homepage is http://lubuntu.net/ and its 'about | lubuntu' page highlights the following: Quoting:...The objective of the lubuntu project is to create a faster, more lightweight and energy saving variant of Ubuntu by using LXDE, The Lightweight X11 Desktop Environment, as its default GUI. The ultimate goal of the lubuntu project is to earn official endorsement from Canonical. Members of the lubuntu team take care of LXDE and other packages that are part of the lubuntu installation. ...(from http://lubuntu.net/about ) Maybe Canonical will soon come to its senses and officially endorse Lubuntu, in order to gain some of the "Independent Developers for Ubuntu Linux" it so seeks. Then again, maybe not.......... |
| lcafiero Sep 13, 2011 11:13 PM EDT |
vainrveenr wrote: Maybe Canonical will soon come to its senses and officially endorse Lubuntu, in order to gain some of the "Independent Developers for Ubuntu Linux" it so seeks. I thought it already had become part of the family. Wasn't there an article here about it last week or the week before? |
| helios Sep 14, 2011 1:09 AM EDT |
Yep, welcomed into the family last week... Now the question is, how much will Canonical try to influence or impede the direction of said distro? There's a lot to be said for independence..... Unless independence doesn't come with a paycheck. |
| herzeleid Sep 14, 2011 2:14 AM EDT |
Grishnakh said: Quoting: So what are users supposed to do for the next year? Put up with a sh*tty DE, or just not use their computer at all while waiting for things to "mature"? Why should users put up with a POS DE for a year when they had something before that worked just fine for them?As others have pointed out, if you have something that works, why change it? My desktop at work is still ubuntu 10.04 LTS. I saw no need to move to 10.10 or 11.04, because, as you so aptly put it, it works "just fine" and it will probably keep running 10.04 just fine for a couple more years. Then we look around at the distro landscape and decide which way to go. However, I do have a netbook and unity is not a bad fit there, so I'm installing the ubuntu 11.10 beta. I'll look at kde 4.7 too - who knows, that might even be a better netbook interface than unity. |
| r_a_trip Sep 14, 2011 5:13 AM EDT |
Give it a chance to mature and I am sure your users would love it. Ah but that is the sore spot, isn't it? "We" are not giving the current crop of touch tablet experiments a chance. "My" users won't love it, because I'm sure as heck not going to recommend it to them. If I get "my" users on Unity or Gnome 3, I will have to use it too to be able to support them. I don't see it happening. These interfaces are tablet based. My users have full-fledged desktop PC's. I have a full-fledged desktop PC. I'm not willing to deal with a tablet interface on a non-tablet device. Apart from the ill fitting use case, these new environments are fickle with the hardware and drivers they require. Hardware was finally becoming less of an obstacle and then our GUI Overlords decide we need 3D capable hardware and drivers just to display a GUI. That is a trap I'm not willing to step into just right now. So who is going to push these glorious new interface onto newbies? I'm not. What I support is what I use. So "my" users will probably (and eventually) move to XFCE if the Mint team is unable to make something sane out of Gnome 3. |
| dixiedancer Sep 14, 2011 7:51 AM EDT |
Only Ubuntu and Kubuntu have paid developers. The other 'buntus (Xubu and Lubu) are independent, community developed distros. "Official endorsement" only means that they can use the trademarked logo and their own tags and whatnot in the support forums. Xubuntu has been around for years, but Canonical never gave out Xubuntu LiveCDs in their old ShipIt service. Only Ubu and Kubu were available, and Xubu made their own separate arrangement. It will be the same for Lubu and E17tu and whateverelse 'buntu. |
| Fettoosh Sep 14, 2011 9:26 AM EDT |
Quoting: because I'm sure as heck not going to recommend it to them. Where is the choice you enjoy for your users too? You think they don't deserve it or not capable? Don't underestimate the power of freedom. Quoting:So who is going to push these glorious new interface onto newbies? I'm not. How long you think you will be able to keep them under your control? Not for long, I think. |
| fewt Sep 14, 2011 10:14 AM EDT |
Quoting:Where is the choice you enjoy for your users too? You think they don't deserve it or not capable? Don't underestimate the power of freedom. Trololol |
| jdixon Sep 14, 2011 11:29 PM EDT |
> How long you think you will be able to keep them under your control? You really don't understand how this works, do you? It's not a question of control. It's a question of trust. |
| vainrveenr Sep 15, 2011 2:27 AM EDT |
Quoting:TrolololWhat is Trololol? From definition #3 of a strikingly similar word at http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trololo (the profanity within is slightly edited here): Quoting:"Trololo" is any b*sh* (or other) speech which is completely unfounded in reality, contains absolutely no truthful substance but is spoken in a happy, optimistic way. Generally, the speaker is not aware that they are completely full of sh* - this is most common amongst clueless businessmen or entrepreneurs pitching venture capitalists on lame business ideas. "Trololo[l]" as its clearly intended meaning of "b*sh*" would then apply to the quote that immediately precedes it: Quoting:Where is the choice you enjoy for your users too? You think they don't deserve it or not capable? Don't underestimate the power of freedom. |
| fewt Sep 15, 2011 6:29 AM EDT |
@vainrveenr - We can always count on you to show up in defense of Fettoosh's ridiculous comments. |
| Fettoosh Sep 15, 2011 8:39 AM EDT |
Quoting:Trololol @fewt === Sewage tank, poke it with a stick and it stinks the whole neighborhood. |
| fewt Sep 15, 2011 9:12 AM EDT |
Quoting:@fewt === Sewage tank, poke it with a stick and it stinks the whole neighborhood. trololol |
| helios Sep 15, 2011 6:11 PM EDT |
In reference to new users, we put computers in about 400 homes a year. That number will increase by 50 percent at the current rate of project expansion. Trust was mentioned and as myself and many others have brought to light. This isn't about code. This isn't about features or individual choices. This is indeed about trust. It's been quoted here a dozen times so I am going to assume most everyone here has read it. One Gnome Dev/Knight-of-the-Round-Table stated that no community extensions or hacks would be accepted into Gnome3 because it would taint the direction and vision the Gnome Team has for #3. This tells me that if left to the Gnome Devs, there will be NO features introduced into the Gnome shell/Gnome3 unless they originate from the Devs. And we've seen their vision of the future and that vision is keyboard shortcuts where they are just friggin' goofy. But to my point. Am I going to introduce my kids to an environment where their needs are secondary to the developer's "vision"? No...We've begun working with the Xfce folks and if what I read is indeed what will take place, Xfce is about to undergo some fantastic improvements...improvements based on user input...not on a handful of narcissistic devs. When 10.04 reaches end of life, we will have our Xfce distro ready to go. I don't care how good Unity or Gnome may have gotten by then. If I don't trust you, I don't work with you...period. |
| herzeleid Sep 15, 2011 6:15 PM EDT |
@helios - thanks for the insights on xfce, I'll be watching that project more closely now - |
| tracyanne Sep 15, 2011 6:38 PM EDT |
as will I |
| DrGeoffrey Sep 15, 2011 7:36 PM EDT |
Make that 3 (and I'll bet there are more). |
| fewt Sep 15, 2011 7:48 PM EDT |
@Helios - We just announced (moments ago) at Fuduntu that we are just going to stay with GNOME 2. If it ain't broke don't fix it, and RedHat supports GNOME 2 in 6, so if anything critical hits we can just diff. |
| Fettoosh Sep 16, 2011 11:07 AM EDT |
Quoting:This is indeed about trust. ... No one can disagree with either of those statements. On the other hand, Trust goes both ways. Most who use FOSS, especially the old timers, had to put some trust in the developers to start using their software. For a long time, no one knew whether they would succeed or not, but the trust was there and developers in general, in one way or another, delivered. Now we are at a turning point where new innovations and concepts are changing the hardware landscape, which consequently is also changing the software paradigm. So why are we losing this trust? Some see drastic changes in the DE and they don't believe it is going to add any value to what is already in existence, but have we given them enough time to prove their plans? I certainly do think so and we ought to. Just like KDE went through a very rough development period, close to three years I believe to reach a good level of usability, reliability, and elegance; for various reasons, I don't expect it to take that long for Gnome 3 & Unity. So why are we jumping the gun again with Gnome 3 & Unity? I am not saying the complains and discontents are not warranted, on the contrary, they are important and essential to influence the direction the developers are taking. But what is also as important is to make sure we don't destroy the trust and the support we give to the developers. I believe these are the life line for them, and without trust and support, we might be contributing to the destruction of good technology and losing a chance to make the Linux Desktop better suited for various devices that would help it to proliferate faster. KDE suffered an onslaught of criticism and bashing for a while, but they tenaciously persisted and eventually succeeding in their efforts. Whether Gnome & Unity are going to survive theirs I can't tell, but I suggest it is better to wait and see how things are going to develop, especially when there are many other options still available to us. One thing KDE had going for it is making major changes in the back end while keeping the front end basically the same. That is something Gnome & Unity overlooked and made a mess of. We don't know whether this is going to be detrimental or not, but if they had to do that, at least they should have kept Gnome 2.x fully supported and as long as the new GUI is still in development. |
| skelband Sep 16, 2011 12:47 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh "... but if they had to do that, at least they should have kept Gnome 2.x fully supported and as long as the new GUI is still in development." That certainly would have been my preference for what they should have done. It seems to me that the Gnome devs had two different agendas going on here. Firstly, they justified the move to Gnome 3 by claiming that aspects of the old DE's behaviour were klunky and bug ridden. Then they go on to change the entire desktop paradigm beyond all recognition. There is something strange going on here. A commentator on one of the the blogs featured on LXer stated that Gnome have only limited resources to work with, but they still managed to justify writing Gnome Shell instead of just tackling the inadequacies of the underlying Gnome architecture. I find a big contradiction there. If they have limited resources, they should be far more frugal as to what they devote their time to. Instead of fixing the bugs, they have rewritten the GUI and ended up with a Beta-class product that is less reliable than Gnome 2. They're not moving forward, they've taken a big step back. |
| vainrveenr Sep 16, 2011 1:29 PM EDT |
Quoting:I suggest it is better to wait and see how things are going to develop, especially when there are many other options still available to us.It is probably better for those particular end-users who have ALREADY LOST the necessary trust in Gnome 3 & Unity to explore on an earlier basis rather than on a later basis, those "many other options still available". Furthermore, such end-users might even wish to seriously consider abandoning ship A.S.A.P. (assuming that they haven't done so already!), while just sitting around waiting to "see how things are going to develop" with the aforementioned end-user complaints concerning Gnome 3 & Unity development. Granted there may be a diminishing number of persons, such as the trusting commentator quoted here, who will no doubt disagree with the actual timing of the abandonment of Gnome 3 & Unity. So be it. |
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