Power Management?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Jeff91 Dec 25, 2011 9:58 PM EDT |
"Power Management – If you’re a laptop user, you may find Window’s power management options a bit more useful than Linux’s offerings. Power management is a work in progress in Linux at the moment. The current functions are sleep, hibernate (if you’re lucky and your battery doesn’t give out on you first), and dim display." What other power saving features do you want?... Well I guess there is CPU scaling - oh wait, Linux has that. Beyond this any power optimizations Windows has are based on drivers written for particular hardware - if Linux has those same drivers available to it, it will work just as well. If Linux doesn't have those same drivers, well you should return said hardware and get something Linux friendly (and write the hardware maker a note explaining why you will no longer user their products). ~Jeff |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 26, 2011 3:44 PM EDT |
If one distro out there would make a genuine effort at getting preloaded onto computers for sale from one or more major manufacturers, I bet we could make a lot of progress in terms of hardware recognition and things like power management. |
| DrGeoffrey Dec 26, 2011 4:41 PM EDT |
I often wonder if people who claim MS's power management features are 'more advanced' have ever actually compared Linux and Windows (any version) on a laptop. Or, do they count features, and not usability? In which case I must ask, what good is a feature if it makes Windows move even slower? |
| fewt Dec 27, 2011 3:31 PM EDT |
@Jeff - Quoting: if Linux has those same drivers available to it, it will work just as well. This isn't necessarily true. Just because the kernel has the support, that doesn't mean there is anything in user space triggering it. Take SHE for example, ASUS provides it and the Linux kernel has hooks. There isn't anything in any of the major distributions that utilizes it out of the box. @DrGeoffrey - Quoting:I often wonder if people who claim MS's power management features are 'more advanced' have ever actually compared Linux and Windows (any version) on a laptop. I have. That's what drove me to write Eee PC Utilities and then Jupiter. Out of the box on pretty much any hardware, OEM Windows is grossly superior to all major distributions in terms of power management. Jupiter helps, but since I don't have hands on all hardware types, it is sub optimal. Jupiter also doesn't help with kernel specific tuning like the parameters required for good power management of newer Intel chipsets. There are contributors that send tweaks along, but not on the scale needed. |
| Jeff91 Dec 27, 2011 4:07 PM EDT |
Your nit picking at what I said FEWT - but then I guess I should have been more clear. I was over reducing when I simply said "Drivers". When I intended with this is that the hardware can perform just as well on Linux as Windows if the hardware vendor provides the software (drivers and controllers for said drivers) to do so. ~Jeff |
| fewt Dec 27, 2011 4:11 PM EDT |
@Jeff - I don't disagree with that. I don't expect the vendors to do that any time soon though outside of distributions that they ship on their hardware. With that said, we can have the capability without them doing so, as long as the hooks are in the kernel and we improve the existing technology that can take advantage. :D |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 27, 2011 5:11 PM EDT |
You would think that the quest for more power-efficient servers, which almost always run Linux, would trickle down to the lowly desktop ... |
| gus3 Dec 27, 2011 5:45 PM EDT |
A little delay in a server's response is not nearly so noticeable as a little delay on a desktop. Power management on a server can be much more aggressive, without degrading a user's experience. |
| DrGeoffrey Dec 27, 2011 5:51 PM EDT |
Quoting:OEM Windows is grossly superior to all major distributions in terms of power management That does not square with my experience. I've compared LMDE, Mint, Ubuntu, Sabayon, SalineOS, and Mandriva to Windows XP and 7 on 4 different laptops (HP, HP, Samsung, and Asus). In each and every case the only way you could get a noticeably longer battery life out of Windows was to employ steps that disabled key features of Windows and/or ground Windows down to an impossibly slow speed. Now, I've not been a gamer for years, and use primarily office applications and web browsers. So I will easily concede my experience is limited to the applications I use. But to say Windows is grossly superior is flat B.S. (And yes, I've used Jupiter, too. For about 3 months, and I could find no appreciable benefit.) |
| fewt Dec 27, 2011 6:22 PM EDT |
Quoting:But to say Windows is grossly superior is flat B.S. I didn't say "Windows" I said "OEM Windows" which includes the OEM specific utilities to manage power. Quoting:And yes, I've used Jupiter, too. For about 3 months, and I could find no appreciable benefit. You mean, you didn't find any benefit to the common powertop recommendations being applied to your computer automatically whenever you went to battery? ;) |
| JaseP Dec 27, 2011 6:41 PM EDT |
Don't forget that M$, has had a lock on OEMs and manufacturers of motherboards, etc. One of the major reasons Linux power management has lagged behind is the lack of hardware (information) support from the manufacturers, especially when things deviate from "standards." |
| DrGeoffrey Dec 27, 2011 7:23 PM EDT |
Quoting:I didn't say "Windows" I said "OEM Windows" which includes the OEM specific utilities to manage power. Fine. Given that all the laptops unfortunately came with windows pre-installed, I should have said OEM Windows. Quoting:You mean, you didn't find any benefit to the common powertop recommendations being applied to your computer automatically whenever you went to battery? Powertop had a benefit, albeit not terribly huge (30 minutes on a 10 hour battery may be useful depending upon circumstances). And, unlike Jupiter, Powertop could be easily exited leaving no residual in memory. OTOH, Jupiter, once exited, left a boatload of unnecessary garbage still in memory. The inevitable result being increased swap, memory, and battery usage. And yes, I'm referring to battery usage (system unplugged). |
| DrGeoffrey Dec 27, 2011 7:51 PM EDT |
BTW, my initial point remains. There may be features that increase battery life under OEM Windows, but for non-gamers only at the extreme expense of usability. OEM Windows power management is by no means 'grossly superior'. Indeed, my experience suggests a more appropriate word might be 'competitive'. |
| fewt Dec 27, 2011 8:20 PM EDT |
@DrGeoffrey - Quoting: Jupiter, once exited, left a boatload of unnecessary garbage still in memory. Like what? Jupiter uses less than 20MB of resident memory, if it left anything behind it would be less than 20MB which is hardly a "boatload". Did you report your findings as bug(s), I haven't seen them. Details please, if you are finding problems, complaining about them doesn't help me make them go away, I'm happy to help if you can.. Quoting:Powertop had a benefit, albeit not terribly huge (30 minutes on a 10 hour battery may be useful depending upon circumstances). I don't believe that for a minute. Quoting:unlike Jupiter, Powertop could be easily exited leaving no residual in memory. Oh, sure you can run powertop make all the settings changes and exit, but how does that improve anything? Unplug and go vs unplug, open a shell, sudo powertop, scroll, for i in recommendation; do apply; done. By the way, you don't have to run the Jupiter applet to benefit from Jupiter in fact you can delete it and Jupiter will still work just fine. Quoting:There may be features that increase battery life under OEM Windows, but for non-gamers only at the extreme expense of usability. As for the expense of usability, that's arguable. If it were 1/10th as bad as you claim people would be complaining all over the place about it, but they aren't. If you can give some examples of how OEM Windows with OEM power management (Thinkvantage, ASUS SHE, etc) tools compare to any big name distribution like Fedora and Ubuntu out of the box, I'd love to see how they compare (mainly because I already know). |
| DrGeoffrey Dec 27, 2011 9:45 PM EDT |
I knew once I opened my mouth that, sooner or later, we would get around to providing hard data. But, unfortunately, I did not spend any time collecting detailed data. My observations are based on personal experience across the laptops and distros noted above. If it was only my Asus (the lappy with the 10 hour battery), I would dismiss my observations as an anomaly. However, I make it a practice to test each new laptop acquired by my household, and over the last 5 years the results have varied somewhat, but are consistent enough for me to dismiss any claims that MS (or the OEMs) provide significantly better power management support than is readily available in Linux. Lab results may suggest otherwise, but such results do not square with my experience. As always, YMMV. My advice (not clouded with puffery) is to not take the word of anyone else (including yours truly). Test, test, test. If you use your system with heavy reliance on the battery (with my Asus: 9 - 10 hour days at work, unplugged, with 2 - 3 daily one hour presentations using Libreoffice/OpenOffice and typical office use for the remainder of the day, leaving work with 30 - 40% reported as remaining battery life), you may be pleasantly surprised at what Linux can do, without crippling the system by using Windows and OEM 'enhancements'. BTW, my experiments with Jupiter ended over a year ago. Also, IIRC memory use was related to Mono. And, quite honestly I do not have the time to fiddle with Jupiter again. A good, long-life battery matched with a laptop that focuses on minimizing battery use works quite well for me. Thankyouverymuch. |
| JaseP Dec 27, 2011 10:24 PM EDT |
OEMs under the direction of M$ have made the power management in Linux the "nightmare" some claim it to be. Example?!?! The Viliv S5 (the manufacturer if the Viliv line, YukYung, like many M$ partners, is now defunct). The S5 had special power management utilities that gave it long battery life (6+ hours, long for an early Atom based Ultra Mobile). These utilities were never released by YukYung for Linux. We had to get them 3rd hand from an Intel tech who helped develop them. They also controlled the devices, which were turned off at boot (to "save power," yeah, right... like turning off the touch screen on a no keyboard unit has any power saving utility). I still don't have my S5 running at 100% in Linux. The same story can be told a million times over (Foxconn, anyone?!?!), with manufacturers who intentionally screw up power management specs so that Windows has an advantage over Linux. So, don't say that M$ power management is "better." You can't compete on a level playing field when the deck is stacked. So, it is a totally unfair comparison. It's only fair to compare them when you add that Linux developers have had to overcome obsticles to get it where it is in Linux. |
| fewt Dec 27, 2011 11:05 PM EDT |
@DrGeoffrey - Quoting:I knew once I opened my mouth that, sooner or later, we would get around to providing hard data. But, unfortunately, I did not spend any time collecting detailed data. Well, it should be obvious that one would expect ones claims to be substantiated. ;) Quoting:My observations are based on personal experience across the laptops and distros noted above. If it was only my Asus (the lappy with the 10 hour battery), I would dismiss my observations as an anomaly. However, I make it a practice to test each new laptop acquired by my household, and over the last 5 years the results have varied somewhat, but are consistent enough for me to dismiss any claims that MS (or the OEMs) provide significantly better power management support than is readily available in Linux. Lab results may suggest otherwise, but such results do not square with my experience. ASUS laptops and netbooks are my thing, it isn't possible to get 10 hours out of one with any non-Eee Linux distribution except mine. At best expect 5-6. If you are getting more, you did something to help it get there. Quoting:As always, YMMV. My advice (not clouded with puffery) is to not take the word of anyone else (including yours truly). Test, test, test. If you use your system with heavy reliance on the battery (with my Asus: 9 - 10 hour days at work, unplugged, with 2 - 3 daily one hour presentations using Libreoffice/OpenOffice and typical office use for the remainder of the day, leaving work with 30 - 40% reported as remaining battery life), you may be pleasantly surprised at what Linux can do, without crippling the system by using Windows and OEM 'enhancements'. I test on a large variety of systems including multiple ASUS models, Thinkpads, and more. Test cases include writing documents, playing music and video, and many other tasks except gaming. Quoting:BTW, my experiments with Jupiter ended over a year ago. Also, IIRC memory use was related to Mono. And, quite honestly I do not have the time to fiddle with Jupiter again. A good, long-life battery matched with a laptop that focuses on minimizing battery use works quite well for me. Thankyouverymuch. I haven't made any significant changes to the Jupiter Applet in over a year, and have over 20,000 users at last attempt to count which was some time ago. If there was a problem of this magnitude I would know about it. ;) @JaseP - You lost me at "M$". |
| DrGeoffrey Dec 27, 2011 11:42 PM EDT |
Quoting:ASUS laptops and netbooks are my thing, it isn't possible to get 10 hours out of one with any non-Eee Linux distribution except mine. At best expect 5-6. If you are getting more, you did something to help it get there. It's an ASUS UL30A-A2, purchased from Amazon. The current installations of SalineOS, Xubuntu, and Sabayon have NOT had Jupiter installed on them (all are XFCE). Powertop was installed in SalineOS, but not in Xubuntu or Sabayon. Sabayon, being my first experiment with a Gentoo derivative, is as close to plain vanilla as possible, with only Firefox, XFE, and some basic games (Supertux, gnome-games). And, I've been using this system (starting with LMDE) for over a year now. All 4 distributions have achieved similar battery performance. I picked this unit after reading multiple reviews from Linux users who also achieved 10+ hours. Possibly those same reviews are still available on-line. Quoting: I test on a large variety of systems including multiple ASUS models, Thinkpads, and more. Test cases include writing documents, playing music and video, and many other tasks except gaming. Perhaps your testing isn't as real world as it should be. -- Edited by DrGeoffrey to eliminate potential TOS violations. |
| fewt Dec 28, 2011 9:33 AM EDT |
Quoting:It's an ASUS UL30A-A2, purchased from Amazon. The current installations of SalineOS, Xubuntu, and Sabayon have NOT had Jupiter installed on them (all are XFCE). Powertop was installed in SalineOS, but not in Xubuntu or Sabayon. Sabayon, being my first experiment with a Gentoo derivative, is as close to plain vanilla as possible, with only Firefox, XFE, and some basic games (Supertux, gnome-games). And, I've been using this system (starting with LMDE) for over a year now. All 4 distributions have achieved similar battery performance. Oh look at you with one of the few models that doesn't use SHE. Still, that model is rated for 12 hours with the 8 cell battery, something that's been discussed as being achieved at Ubuntu forum using 7. There are reports of that machine idling for 16 hours. You said you get what, 9-10? Still not as nice as Windows. You could improve it, if you weren't so closed minded. Quoting:I picked this unit after reading multiple reviews from Linux users who also achieved 10+ hours. Possibly those same reviews are still available on-line. But, as I don't do the leg work for my students, I'm not going to do it for a shill, either. I'm talking about methods to improve battery life and bring it to parity with Windows, yet I'm a shill? Unbelievable, are you retarded? I feel sorry for your students. Quoting:Perhaps your testing isn't as real world as it should be. In any event, much like all too many Windows users I've met (not to mention weak students), I cannot help someone whose mind is closed. Maybe you are just too stupid to realize that I am talking about methods to improve battery life. I'm not shilling Windows, but since I mentioned it your head automatically went into your @as. I get more than the rated battery life on every single one of the machines that I test with Jupiter and a few kernel tweaks. My point is that distributions don't do enough, my point isn't that Windows is better NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH, moron. |
| JaseP Dec 28, 2011 9:43 AM EDT |
OK, let's settle down, here, ... before we end up with another "Gris-like" situation. OK!?!? ... Guys?!?! Oh, and fewt, what I said, before you dismissed my missive against Redmond, was that hardware manufacturers have made the Linux power management the lackluster thing it is,... by changing specs, and throwing intentional roadblocks in Linux developers' paths. |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 28, 2011 11:05 AM EDT |
I guess I should get my own data, but I don't really notice any increase in battery life in Windows 7 vs. Debian on this AMD-running Lenovo G555. Then again, I'm hardly ever in Windows, but when I am, I don't find myself saying, "Man this thing runs for hours and hours on the battery." |
| DrGeoffrey Dec 28, 2011 11:13 AM EDT |
My apologies to all. At my age, I should know better. In a way I miss the old usenet, where ignoring such posts could be enforced by software at the user level. |
| RichardLinx Dec 28, 2011 11:27 AM EDT |
I'd just like to point out that in addition to having his posts blatantly censored, fewt was banned without warning for seemingly no reason. Here is a thread for further details: http://omgcheesecake.net/index.php?/topic/1577-censorship-at... Personally, I find it appalling that a website such as Lxer would take such a poor approach to an open discussion. |
| JaseP Dec 28, 2011 1:06 PM EDT |
For the record,... I neither complained about any "mud slinging" to the admins nor did I interpret anything to be directed at me. I merely asked the relevant parties to return to civility (as is done in parliamentary rules). So, please, cast no aspersions my way, anyone. ... And how do I get off this soap box? |
| jdixon Dec 28, 2011 1:33 PM EDT |
> And how do I get off this soap box? That can be difficult. :) A quick jump usually suffices, but minor physical ailments have been know to result from such an approach. I think most people recommend climbing down gingerly. > Personally, I find it appalling that a website such as Lxer would take such a poor approach to an open discussion. In recent history, there have only been two such bans that I'm aware of. Both have been in the past few weeks. I think either Scott or his higher ups are losing patience with some people, and have decided to start taking quicker action before things escalate. But that's pure speculation on my part. To be fair, I've been surprised at the quick trigger myself. I can only hope I don't run afoul of the new standards, as they haven't yet been clearly articulated. As for the censoring, the reasons are clearly stated in the message left behind. While I haven't read the response, I doubt I would disagree with their reasoning. I'd also point out that if LXer were seriously trying to stifle discussion, RichardLinx's comment and link would quickly be history. > My apologies to all. At my age, I should know better. Welcome to the club. :) The only thing I could see that you did wrong was the shill comment, which it looks like you've removed. |
| gus3 Dec 28, 2011 2:43 PM EDT |
I have read the censored comment. I stand with the editor(s) on the matter. As if they need my approval. |
| lcafiero Dec 28, 2011 3:02 PM EDT |
Hand me that soapbox, will you, jdixon? RichardLinx -- First, welcome to the LXer board, since it looks like you're a first-timer. Much of what's lost in this discusssion is not only fewt's presence, but a simple concept that you can disagree with someone without being disagreeable. I learned that the hard way years ago, so I'm never shy about reminding people about this when the opportunity arises. About your link: An interesting read, but if fewt violated the TOS and LXer.com is hammering down on it (at long last -- thank you!), then he only has himself to blame; to say nothing of the fact that his contributions to FOSS, while many and appreciated, does not give him a license to be abusive. Additionally, you might expect someone who is a distro lead developer and a lead developer of other software projects to carry himself with a little more diplomacy and maturity, with the clear and obvious understanding that what he does or says reflects on these projects, not to mention the people working with him on these projects. This is where leadership kicks in, and if he wants to exhibit some leadership skills, fewt might want to e-mail Scott and apologize for violating the TOS and see how he can get back in LXer's good graces. Since you guys seem to be friends, would you forward that message to him, with my best regards for a Happy New Year, please? Finally, there probably should be an oath that people take before using/developing FOSS and it should start out with: "I swear not to be an a--hole, and should I find myself in disagreement with someone, I will solely argue the issues." If people keep that pledge, we would have a lot less problems in forums, both here and elsewhere. Soapbox, anyone? |
| gus3 Dec 28, 2011 3:12 PM EDT |
lcafiero wrote:Soapbox, anyone?Thanks, but I carry my own. |
| JaseP Dec 28, 2011 6:49 PM EDT |
Apparently, fewt sees this as not an issue regarding civility, but of a culture that is hostile towards anyone who is critical of any aspect of Linux superiority. I'm not going to address that ... since that is an opinion based squarely on one's point of view and experience. But I will say that I've looked into his involvement in Linux,... Fuduntu and Jupiter in particular, and he's got some expertise in the subject of power management ... particularly as it relates to mobile devices. In fact, I just installed Jupiter on my Dell Inspiron Duo, and must say that I've noticed a difference in the very short time I've been running it. For what my opinion is worth,... I think a ban without warning is a bit harsh. I'm not condoning his choice of language, but after a sufficient cooling off period, I believe he should be allowed to return. Of course, this is only my opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth... |
| gus3 Dec 28, 2011 7:06 PM EDT |
We don't know that there was no back-channel communication. We only know that fewt stated as much. And if the editor(s) involved keep silent on the matter, that's all we'll know. And I'm fine with that. |
| tuxchick Dec 28, 2011 7:08 PM EDT |
My opinions are pure gold. The rest of you can only hope to aspire to such lofty worth. I didn't see the deleted comment; I've seen enough of fewt's pointless savagery to be happy that an editor took action. Power management in Windows isn't that great. Half the time you're lucky if Windows wakes in a usable state, or wakes up at all. I'm a diehard Thinkpad user because having good hardware makes a difference, and I haven't had any laptop suspend or hibernate problems in years. Linux desktop systems can get bizarre because there are multiple places to configure power management-- screensaver, standalone power manager, and system BIOS. All of the distros can do a better job of harmonizing redundant configuration tools. |
| sofisticated Dec 29, 2011 2:18 PM EDT |
I'm a lurker, of sorts. I tend to stick around mailing lists (where drama is less frequent), but I also like to read what users are thinking about a particular subject. I think most people call that news. Anyway, I'll introduce myself. My real name is Matt, I go by the pseudonym Sofisticated. If you need a reason why I think I have a say, well, I've done work with FreeBSD for some projects with some companies that, unless you want to be my next employer, I can't really say too much about. (: I think I remember Tuxchick from Linuxtoday. You're Carla, aren't you? Even if you aren't, I remember seeing your stories around here for years. Anyways, it makes me sad to see someone who I held in relatively high esteem go and call someone a "savage". I don't think I could call somebody else a "savage" unless, well, they were Stalin, maybe even Genghis Khan. Well, if I compared him to Genghis Khan, I'd also call him a player... I mean... I digress. Both you, Tuxchick, and lcafiero I've seen nice to fewt. I have no affiliation with fewt, though I do subscribe to him on Google+, but I also subscribe to a lot of other developers. Maybe I just have a bit of a different attitude toward companies like Microsoft, Apple, and IBM, and maybe that's an inclination for some of the attitudes presented here. I know fewt is more sympathetic towards Microsoft for certain things, such as power management. I've also seen him commend the developments of Mono, which has a lot to do with Microsoft too. Well, I'm a FreeBSD guy, which I say hypocritically as I type this on a netbook running Lubuntu, and I guess I just don't see anything wrong with that. I'm not going to go into what Windows is good for, even though we all know that Linux doesn't touch FreeBSD on the server (/humor). I'm just sad to see people write him off so quickly. I would really like to see something like Jupiter in desktop FreeBSD systems. I'm using it right now on this netbook, and I do see a difference. Now, I'm not defending fewt and saying you're all wrong for throwing him away so quickly (which you kinda are), I'm just saying that fewt does have a point. He's really good at what he does, in this case power, and he's just having trouble defending his position in front of users. As a developer myself, I never come in contact with other users, because most users are not able to see something from your perspective. The main difference between a site like this and, say, a mailing list is that on a mailing list, I'm backed up by several other developers vouching for my position, such as lack of time or inabilities with in a domain. On a board like this, you're likely surrounded by a bunch of users who think they know better just because they haven't met much resistance before. It's easy to gripe at developers and accuse them of not knowing what they're doing, but it's hard to get a user to understand from a developers point of view, especially from what I've seen on boards like this where there is a lot of hesitance towards Microsoft and "the Microsoft way" as opposed to "the Linux way". Lcafiero was talking about how, as a project leader, fewt should have more maturity and diplomacy. For a business, you're absolutely correct, but diplomacy and maturity are not things you find in the FOSS space for software leads. Stallman is not the nicest person to work around. He's been known to lash out at those who work hard against what he works for, which includes Microsoft and Apple. Pidgin for the longest time had a team that would spit in your face before they would, say start developing for other networks or change their goals. Last I remember this being the case was around 2006 when Sean Egan, who now works for Google, was project lead. I think it had something to do with passwords being stored in plaintext and the team pretty much saying "Do it yourself" with what sounded like a bit of hostility. Of course, you have opposite ends of the spectrum on that note. You have people like Stallman that are praised, yet he's been known to have bad attitudes for proprietary software and those who make it. But, you also have people like Miguel de Icaza of the Gnome and Mono projects who attracts a lot of hate, but I don't think I've ever met such a highly respectable person in my life. He's very friendly, and even though there are very rabid, disdainful people of his, he keeps himself in good standing. I could probably name quite a few cases where the project lead is not the nicest person. It's good to know that kindness, dignity, nor respect make a good leader. A good leader gets the job done, and even then, they're not perfect. The only perfect leader I knew was Kim Jung Il, but he's dead (/humor). Nobody likes reading long posts, so I'll wrap it up here. I like fewt, he's a nice guy, I've talked with him a few times before and I'm a fan of his work. Now, my opinion isn't enough to see him back in, but hey, he's human. He's no more or less human than anybody on this board. Besides that, he's super active in the Linux ecosphere, providing various fixes here and there, providing software that helps patch in the holes where the capabilities exist but the triggers do not, and managing a distribution which I imagine is anything but simple, and if his G+ is any indication, managing big, exciting changes in his own life. |
| JaseP Dec 29, 2011 2:52 PM EDT |
Thanks for your contribution to this discussion, Matt. "Lurkers" tend to be more dispassionate, and more objective. |
| number6x Dec 29, 2011 2:53 PM EDT |
I really do not think that fewt's statement regarding power management being better implemented in Windows than in Linux has anything to do with the deletion of comments or of his account. The language used caused his comments to be deleted due to TOS violations. I would assume that repeated TOS violations would result in an account being deleted. In terms of the subject... I have access to one windows laptop, an HP elitebook 2530p. It is provided by my current employer. I do not believe I have enough knowledge to judge windows vs linux implementations of power management. However I do know that my one windows laptop does not do a good job of managing itself. This could probably be fixed if I had admin rights to the machine and could keep trying solutions until finding one that works. If I suspend it, everything seems fine, until I open the lid or "un-suspend" it. It always crashes trying to come out of suspend. I have sent it to our help desk and they cannot resolve the issue. I do not have administrative rights so I cannot adjust the settings. If I close the lid while it is on, I know it will crash when I open it up and I will have to reboot. A subset of fellow employees here at work experience the same issues as I do, but not all. This one failure is certainly not enough to condemn Windows in general as being a failure when compared to Linux in terms of power management. I used to have an IBM thinkpad t42 from a previous employer that was dual boot Windows/Linux. I observed similar battery life under either operating system. I had no problems with suspend or hibernate under either operating system. I booted from a usb-key into a live version of linux on my current work laptop. Suspend worked fine in bodhi linux 1.2.1 so I do not believe it is a hardware issue. |
| JaseP Dec 29, 2011 3:00 PM EDT |
Point taken ... But. 2 wrongs don't make a right,... 3 lefts do,... &, a right, a left, and another right can often score a knockout. Sorry for the un-punny comment, but I'm saying that it's often better to cure a cancer by operating on the cancer, not by shooting the patient in the head. |
| tuxchick Dec 29, 2011 4:03 PM EDT |
sofisticated, nice guys don't post rude mean comments and attack people who disagree with them like they're mortal enemies. fewt's habit of scorched-earth "rebuttals" is tiresome and unnecessary. He could be the greatest brainiac of all time and there will still be people who don't agree with what he says. That's life, and abusive personal attacks do not increase his persuasiveness. Instead that leaves me thinking 'what a jerk, do not read.' I haven't read his comments here for a long time because they are so obnoxious, and when I see he is active in a thread I often skip it entirely. I guess you didn't read his comments that are still in this thread...he's the only one going ballistic. |
| Linux_Youth Dec 29, 2011 4:23 PM EDT |
@tuxchick He wasn't just disagreed with, he was called a "shill." That is a personal attack. As far as I'm concerned, don't dish it out if you can't take it. http://www.fewt.com/2011/12/heil-lxer.html |
| tuxchick Dec 29, 2011 4:38 PM EDT |
Awesome. One person calls fewt a shill, then apologizes and retracts the comment. Which somehow justifies all the nasty comments fewt has made on LXer the past few months, culminating in what happened in this thread. |
| Linux_Youth Dec 29, 2011 4:43 PM EDT |
He edited the post, but I have a copy of the line where he made the remark: "I picked this unit after reading multiple reviews from Linux users who also achieved 10+ hours. Possibly those same reviews are still available on-line. But, as I don't do the leg work for my students, I'm not going to do it for a shill, either." |
| Linux_Youth Dec 29, 2011 4:45 PM EDT |
Apologizes after he got banned, yes. |
| Linux_Youth Dec 29, 2011 4:49 PM EDT |
And just when did I say it justified comments he made in the past? Can you send me the link for that? Don't put words in my mouth. |
| sofisticated Dec 29, 2011 5:27 PM EDT |
@tuxchick: Well, point taken. :) All I'm saying is, judge a man by his work an not by his speech. Now, I'm not trying to change the discussion, but give an example. One that we might more relate to is RMS's disposition towards Torvalds. Outside the exclusively-FOSS realm, Torvalds is a nice guy, the "have a beer" with kind of guy, but around RMS, his attitude is joking, perhaps terse towards the cause. Just give the guy a break. He's carrying a lot on his shoulders, and some people become very compassionate of their work. When it's your tears in the product, you tend to treat it like it's your child, and defend it as such. I'm just asking to lay off the "he's a mad lunatic" stuff. It keeps the board civil and respectable, as no one has ever won a war through screaming and accusations. I'm sure you wouldn't like someone writing you off as just a fanatic of GNU/Linux, throwing anything out that you might have said that's credible. Just because somebody's stubborn doesn't make them an idiot. It just makes them stubborn. At a risk of going completely off topic, here's my thoughts on the subject: I agree with fewt that Windows has much better power strategies than Linux. That's not to say that Windows machines will stay alive longer than Linux machines. For instance, the netbook I'm on now has a few hours more battery life under Linux than Windows 7. That's a giant leap! What really makes the difference is the overall demand on the system. When you rule out the obvious parts that don't cause high power consumption, such as RAM, you're left with the most probable parts for high consumption, which is most likely the display, processor, and HDD. OEMs are possibly the best people at figuring out the best methods of power consumption. This is aided by the OS, for instance Microsoft, knowing the best ways at reducing power consumption by modifying the system facilities. But moreover, Windows just has better support for hardware than Linux. For instance, the largest, if not the problem for the power regression of Linux reported by Phoronix back in June (link at bottom of post), was due to ASPM, or Active-State Power Management. The big reason was that the kernel refused to touch the ASPM registers if the BIOS said it didn't support it. What happened? The BIOS enabled ASPM anyways and said it didn't support it. The kernel only had to assume that ASPM wasn't evident on this system and ignored it. The PCI-E devices never went into low powered mode and the system, coincidentally, used more power, It was actually less of a case of hardware support and more about misconfigured BIOS's, but the same "OEM knows more than the hackers" story nonetheless. This is the sort of issue that wouldn't happen as often if OEMs had more access through a less restricted means to the kernel. (That's the BSD guy in me talking) Now, let's say these "misconfigurations" didn't exist. Windows has the better power management. It's hard to compete with guys that have nearly every device the product will run on at their disposal, 8-hours per day, overtime on weekends, and a sweet paycheck to incentivize the deal. But, at the end of the day, it's much easier to assume a lower powered system under Linux than under Windows. The answer to why is a complicated one at best, but it's best to put as that, Linux, unlike Microsoft, isn't under the same pressures. It doesn't have to provide a lightning fast search system, nor does it have to keep up with competitors or the constant pressure to improve. Linux is in a position where it can provide facilities that don't require fancy services or extra processing to present a pretty result. I use Lubuntu, which is basically a Debian-like LXDE system. LXDE doesn't do anything special. It's barely more advanced than the user interface in Windows 98. This could also be extended to any lightweight system. Give me a Haiku netbook with full access to the hardware power management facilities and it will run for longer than Windows 7 (which is what I'm comparing it to, for future reference). I use Chrome, leafpad, old Penguin games, and PCManFM. Do they index? No. Do they do special things that would require any sort of even-slightly-intensive system processing? I don't think so. Microsoft, on the other hand, works to please their audience. People want flashy things, that do cool tricks, do it well, and for a long time. Give me a system that provides all the facilities of Windows 7 under a Linux box and I can almost assure you that Windows will last longer than the Linux substitute. Neither KDE or GNOME have the money behind it to achieve that, but I do commend their results thus far. Apps like Jupiter help, but aren't a magic bullet. As long as Firefox keeps having memory leaks, lightweight machines will swap, and that will spin the disk. Spinning the disk costs power, and usually lots of it. To the person who didn't like the extra memory taken up by Mono, taken comfort in that the more Mono apps are running, the less overall memory they'll take per application. Also take comfort in that, if the entire payload stays in RAM, that the power consumption of the load is negligible. You'll probably spend more power in keeping the RAM active over the lifetime of the system then you will by subsequent accesses. RAM is power cheap when compared to the graphics, processor, or storage. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux_263... |
| tracyanne Dec 29, 2011 5:40 PM EDT |
Once again Mountains out of molehills. |
| jdixon Dec 29, 2011 6:25 PM EDT |
> He wasn't just disagreed with, he was called a "shill." That is a personal attack. If you consider being called a shill a personal attack, you have very thin skin. It's an insult, yes, but not anything to go into a diatribe over. > He edited the post, but I have a copy of the line where he made the remark. Yes, he edited the post. That''s why he put the line -- Edited by DrGeoffrey to eliminate potential TOS violations. at the end. He's not trying to hide anything. And since LXer hasn't deleted the link to the captured posts, neither are they. Fewt violated the rules of the site, and his post was removed for doing so. And rather than either cooling off or going to the moderators and discussing the matter with them, he kept posting the same things. You seem surprised that this resulted in the removal of his account. I'm not, and I don't have a problem with it, even if LXer does it to me. It's their site, not mine. My posts are allowed at their discretion. I'd appreciate it if they would contact me before suspending my account, but they have no obligation to do so, and we have no way to know they didn't in fewt's case. |
| lcafiero Dec 29, 2011 10:49 PM EDT |
Indeed, TA: Mountain, meet molehill. |
| fatriff Jan 02, 2012 10:17 AM EDT |
After installing KDE (Kubuntu) on a spare laptop this morning I immediately noticed the easily accessed power management features, you can set them to performance, power saving and aggressive power saving and create your own, you can dim the screen, set timeout options etc.. This is so much more than what I have on Ubuntu with Gnome Shell, why don't all distros have this already handy for the user? |
| tracyanne Jan 02, 2012 7:04 PM EDT |
I installed fewt's jupiter application on Saturday, on one of my netbooks, subjective impressions after 3 days are that it does indeed improve power performance. Interestingly I note it's written in C# mono, so I applaud him on that score also... at last an actual useful application using mono. |
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