Zareason and System76 must love this
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| BFM Mar 26, 2015 10:41 PM EDT |
Linux hardware vendors have a ready made business opportunity with this one. That is especially true with laptops. We have been building our own desktop workstations for years. I don't think motherboard vendors are stupid enough not to put a UFEI disable in their BIOS settings for folks like us. Complete machine vendors might be that stupid. If they are, vendors like Zareason and System76 may cleanup selling folks like me laptops. |
| JaseP Mar 27, 2015 4:15 AM EDT |
Their machines are too expensive... at least $100 above what a similar system would get you with a "top brand" OEM... (not that we may have much choice in the future). BTW,... The main reason I posted the article was to highlight the fact that this was brought up in a conservative, mainstream media outlet... So, this issue is getting attention from all corners. Last time, MS backpedaled after negative feedback from the media. Let's see what they do this time (not holding my breath for a change). Currently, the MS apologists/shills are in full force... If it weren't so ire producing, it would be comical... |
| pmpatrick Mar 27, 2015 8:03 AM EDT |
I doubt this will see the light of day. MS's legal department must be having fits over this. A protracted antitrust suit is almost a certainty if MS goes down this path on x86 hardware. Also, if vendors want to sell to big business, you can forget about locking down the OS to Windows 10. Large business enterprises invariably want to install their own OS image and that will be Windows 7 for he foreseeable future. |
| JaseP Mar 27, 2015 8:48 AM EDT |
They bought their way out of the first one,... What makes you think they won't try again??? Plus, when they were subject to the consent decree, they violated it numerous times without consequence,... especially in foreign countries. |
| jdixon Mar 27, 2015 11:10 AM EDT |
> Large business enterprises invariably want to install their own OS image and that will be Windows 7 for he foreseeable future. For the next 5 years or so, yes. But once Windows 7 goes off support that will change. |
| JaseP Mar 27, 2015 5:01 PM EDT |
In my brief experience dealing with Windows versions (forced to, as part of the post-bac degree program I'm in), Windows 8.x is actually more internally stable and more SAMBA friendly than Win7. Plus, the later versions have adopted more of the advanced multi-threading model that MS has been touting (and is arguably easier to program with than POSIX threads). IT departments would help themselves by adopting the more recent versions of Windows, if they are going to be running Windows at all,... User rejection/objection of the newer GUI aside. |
| CFWhitman Mar 30, 2015 8:49 AM EDT |
Well, for desktops, businesses are probably never going to accept Windows 8. Also, the idea that businesses will switch to 8 or any other version of Windows once 7 goes off support is backwards. 7 will not go off support until businesses accept a replacement. That's the cause and effect relationship there. XP was kept on support until 7 came out and was accepted by businesses. The same will be true of 7. If Windows 10 does not prove acceptable to businesses (though I suspect it will), then 7 will be kept around till Windows 11 (or whatever) comes out. |
| Jeff91 Apr 03, 2015 11:18 AM EDT |
Quoting:Their machines are too expensive... at least $100 above what a similar system would get you with a "top brand" OEM I actually own this laptop -> https://system76.com/laptops/galago Can you please provide some specific links to examples of "top brand" laptops that are better than this for a similar price point? I did a lot of research at the end of last year and even with my wife's corporate discounts Dell, Lenovo and other brands I checked couldn't come close to this power level in the 14" form factor. |
| jdixon Apr 03, 2015 6:41 PM EDT |
The problem isn't the middle and high end of the market ($1K and up). The problem is the low end. The cheapest laptop that System76 currently sells is the $599 Lemur. They don't have anything in the sub-$500 range. Neither does ZaReason, whose low end model is $699. The last laptop I got was purchased new from Dell, with Ubuntu 8.04 installed, for $200. It's now something like 5 years old and still works fine. |
| Jeff91 Apr 03, 2015 6:55 PM EDT |
If you need a cheap laptop today get a Chromebook. I don't think anything can compete with those devices on price point. |
| jdixon Apr 03, 2015 6:59 PM EDT |
> If you need a cheap laptop today get a Chromebook. Didn't we just have a thread on that subject a bit ago, Jeff? I don't want a machine that's that much trouble to reload with Linux. Not that I'll be in the market till my current laptop dies. |
| CFWhitman Apr 06, 2015 10:08 AM EDT |
It certainly was trouble getting my Chromebook to the point I wanted it at as a Linux laptop. However, I have to admit that the result right now is pretty nice. My only problems with it really are the lack of an IPS screen (which some of the newer ones have) and the fact that it's turquoise (though some people love that and I often get compliments on it). However, to get my Chromebook to this point I bought a 128 GB solid state drive (the biggest NGFF drive I could get that would fit), removed the write protect screw, put it in developer mode, changed firmware settings and loaded Linux from a USB drive. I also calibrated the screen which had a fairly typical blue cast. Edit: I should point out that the parts I really considered "trouble" to do were the hardware parts, particularly taking the Chromebook almost completely apart to get to the NGFF drive. Part of me is tempted by the new Chromebook Pixel LS just because a 3:2 IPS screen like that would be really nice. Of course the issues are, besides price, the non-upgradeable 64GB SSD and the fact that such a high resolution screen can still be problematic to use with Linux. With a sizable SD card for storage, though, the 16GB of RAM and fairly powerful processor could theoretically make it a machine that would cover all my laptop needs. Still, it is expensive. The more frugal part of me says that maybe I should get a refurbished mobile workstation class machine for my home (and some particular occasions on the road) use and just continue to use the HP Chromebook for my portable uses. Of course, the temptation to replace the HP with the new Toshiba Chromebook 2 with an IPS screen is also there. The only problem is that I feel that I've barely used the HP, and it really does work great other than my dissatisfaction with non-IPS screens at this point. Edit: Upon some investigation, I've found that the Toshiba Chromebook 2 doesn't properly support SeaBIOS, so until/unless there is a workaround for that, I doubt I'd be interested. |
| ljmp Apr 06, 2015 10:14 AM EDT |
@Jeff91: I had never looked at system76's offerings before you mentioned it here... And, I've briefly compared the Galago to several other small screen, but powerful machines... and you are absolutely correct... And, since I'm in the market for a small screen power machine -- I'm sold. Thanks for the link - especially for the lazy people like me who sometimes don't do a very thorough search before purchase. |
| JaseP Apr 06, 2015 10:39 AM EDT |
Quoting: Can you please provide some specific links to examples of "top brand" laptops that are better than this for a similar price point? I did a lot of research at the end of last year and even with my wife's corporate discounts Dell, Lenovo and other brands I checked couldn't come close to this power level in the 14" form factor. Sorry to say it,... but then, you didn't look hard enough (or at all, really)... Take the "Lemur" model,... to get 8 GB RAM and a 1TB HD requires at least an additional $105, taking you to a $700+ laptop. I can walk into any Walmart within an hour drive of where I live and walk out with a similar Dell machine for about $600 (about the BASE price of the Lemur)... and I HAVE done that... recently (i.e.: within the last 4-6 months). So has my girlfriend... However,... I DO have to say that if Win10 specs & UEFI Secure Boot takes those machines out of the running,... Spending the extra $100 for System76 or Zareason machine may very likely be worth it... |
| ljmp Apr 06, 2015 11:06 AM EDT |
@JaseP: I've looked at many of the <$1000 USD machines. For the most part, they all use some inferior components somewhere. My experience has been, either you can buy a machine that has a good processor Or a machine that has high RAM OR a machine that has a 1080p display OR a machine that has desirable peripherals [like mSATA]. But to find a machine that has all of those together is actually quite rare, and usually means much more money spent than the price point of Galago. It's unfortunate that I've overlooked system76 thus far... and I'm not quite sure how that's possible since I've been using GNU/Linux as my sole OS for a long long time. But oh well... live and learn, as the saying goes. |
| JaseP Apr 06, 2015 11:57 AM EDT |
@ ljmp: We're talking about the fact that UEFI Secure Boot is going to be a risk of lockout in the PC market,... To that end, you need to focus on the low-to-middle end machines... I've been into computers since before there were PCs (mid 1970s, with SYM and KIM single board computers with a whopping 1-2KB of RAM). I know full well that there is a price/quality trade-off. Apple's are generally very well built machines,... but are also generally double, sometimes triple the price. I have no doubt that System76 & Zareason machines use good quality components. I also have no doubt that if UEFI Secure Boot locks the low-middle end of PCs out of being able to run Linux, you aren't going to have as many new converts. But, you don't need the best south-bridge or a high rez display to run Linux (and often, you don't want the latest/greatest anyway, for compatibility reasons). The bottom line is that people (at least average people) aren't going to try Linux out when the bar to entry is a $700, $800 or $1000 machine that they have to specially vet before purchase. People (the majority of people) aren't going to go flocking to System76 or Zareason because MS locks them out of trying Linux with any other machine,... They'll just make do with the standard MS OS that comes with the machine, and end-of-life it when the OS can't be upgraded any longer, and not bother trying Linux at all. Either that, or they'll make do with a Chromebook, tablet, or HDMI plug-able stick computer running Chrome or Android. This is MS's desperate attempt to hold on to the (dwindling) PC market, at the expense of Linux or anything else. And, the only way to "break" them, is to continue to chip away at their market share,... be it through Linux adoption, new platforms (tablets/phones/ARM set top boxes/Etc), and/or continuing to marginalize the use-case for the PC. Unfortunately, that means we aren't going to see much increased Linux adoption on the PC platform. And those of us who use Linux, exclusively, are going to have a harder time finding suitable hardware... |
| ljmp Apr 06, 2015 12:23 PM EDT |
@JaseP: I sorta agree, and sorta disagree. There are security reasons to use keyed UEFI. Those reasons are why you find keyed systems like iOS and Android. However, there is some discussion to be had as to the effectiveness of the crypto at that level. There's no doubt that Microsoft is trying to lock their software garden -- but it's probably too little, too late for them to do so... As Chromebooks become more widespread, and Macs become the generalized 'standard' of the not-Chromebook market [or the not-very-low-end market], MS Windows is going to get squeezed out... It's satisfying, sort of... but I have the feeling that the market is simply exchanging one partially 'bad' overlord for a pair of 'really bad' overlords. My guess is: like overall America, there will no longer be a 'middle-class' laptop. In reference to laptops and GNU/Linux distros, I've run various Debian based distros on lots of different regular commercial quality Windows laptops. It always feels like something is just a bit wrong. So, hopefully that won't be the case with system76 machines. |
| JaseP Apr 06, 2015 1:07 PM EDT |
The kind of things that UEFI secure boot prevents (e.g.: boot sector viruses) have never been a major attack vector. MS pushing it is a transparent attempt at lock-out. I've never had a problem running major distros on standard commercial quality laptops, even going back to 2000-2001. The only place where I've had difficulty is with specialty hardware (touchscreen flip-tops, hand-helds, etc.). Even tweaking for max performance is generally just a Google search and a PPA away (Intel SNA acceleration, proprietary Broadcom drivers, etc.). I've had equal to worse trouble getting Windows to run on similar machines (lack of drivers, etc.). |
| Jeff91 Apr 06, 2015 11:34 PM EDT |
Quoting:Sorry to say it,... but then, you didn't look hard enough (or at all, really)... Take the "Lemur" model,... to get 8 GB RAM and a 1TB HD requires at least an additional $105, taking you to a $700+ laptop. I can walk into any Walmart within an hour drive of where I live and walk out with a similar Dell machine for about $600 (about the BASE price of the Lemur)... and I HAVE done that... recently (i.e.: within the last 4-6 months). You are actually just flat out wrong. Link me a Dell machine (or any other) with an i7 processor, 16gigs of RAM, 240gig SSD, 750gig standard drive and all in a 14" form factor that is cheaper than the System76 machine I linked above (hint: dell doesn't even offer a 13 or 14" laptop with these specs). I believe that on the cheap end you are going to find cheaper computers than what system76 offers. These "cheap" options are put to shame by Chromebooks though which offer a full laptop for under $300. For midranged spec'd laptops like the 14" one I linked above System76 is on par with what you fill find elsewhere and they have a heck of a lot more customization. |
| JaseP Apr 07, 2015 12:34 AM EDT |
Quoting: Link me a Dell machine (or any other) with an i7 processor, 16gigs of RAM, 240gig SSD, 750gig standard drive and all in a 14" form factor that is cheaper than the System76 machine I linked above (hint: dell doesn't even offer a 13 or 14" laptop with these specs). Ok,... How about... Lenovo ThinkPad Edge E450 14" i7-5500U 16GB 1TB SSD Windows 7 Pro Full HD Best New Student and Business Laptop Computer by Computer Upgrade King Price: $1,194.99 & FREE Shipping http://www.amazon.com/ThinkPad-i7-5500U-Windows-Business-Com... |
| Jeff91 Apr 07, 2015 8:19 AM EDT |
@JaseP again that just shows how little research you actually did. That device has an ATI graphics card that will almost certainly give you a piss poor Linux experience. To top it off, that laptop is within $50 of the price I paid for my laptop with similar specs and an Intel HD5200 card six months ago. Meaning it was likely more expensive then. Edit: Also again doing more research - the processor in the Lenovo you linked it worse than the Sager based model I linked -> http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/933/Intel_Core_i7_Mobile_i7... |
| CFWhitman Apr 07, 2015 8:30 AM EDT |
That looks to be a pretty good deal, although it doesn't have an IPS screen like the Galago. My reason for hesitation with System76 is that their computers seem to be Clevo machines, and I've not had good experiences with Clevo in the past. |
| JaseP Apr 07, 2015 9:06 AM EDT |
ATI graphics will work in Linux... It's not a spec that I (or most people looking for a laptop for work/school) care about. All you proved is that you can list strawman specs that you can shoot down later... Then I can go and find a similar machine for cheaper... An endless cycle. BTW,... I am seeing higher prices on entry level machines now, from everybody, than a few months ago, not lower... What about how fast you can have it? That machine I listed (above) was likely ready to ship the day of the order (and probably eligible for Amazon Prime, next day shipping). A System76 machine has about a one week turn around time before it even goes out the door. We aren't talking about mid-high range machines with the whole UEFI Secure Boot thing either... We are talking access to machines and to the lock-out. The last machine I went and got, I looked for, ordered, went out for, picked up, came back (each 1/2 hour drives), updated and was using the machine within 4 hours (because I needed it right THEN). I'm all for getting machines that come with Linux installed, if I can. But of the more than a dozen computers that I have (most still usable), only 4 of them came with Linux pre-installed (two of them, Dells). Two machines I looked at could have been ordered with Linux (versus Win Vista), but getting them with Linux meant spending $125 more for a lower spec machine in the same model. The problem is not only price (especially at the lower end of the market), it's availability. On top of that, if I were to try to get Linux running on a friend or relative's machine, the new UEFI Secure Boot would mean that their existing machine (built to Win10 specs, complete with the ubiquitous behind-the-scenes dirty tricks from MS) wouldn't be able to boot anything other than an MS operating system. It's the availability of Linux capable machines that we're talking about. System76 & Zareason are the rare success stories in Linux pre-installs. Many other outfits have come and gone (out-of-business) over the last dozen or more years. I've watched it happen to them. And,... Yes, you can order Linux pre-installs from them (but will likely wipe the drive and re-install the OS partitioned your way, anyway). Yes, some of their (especially specialty) machines are price competitive (most are not). But,... in the over-all scheme of things,... getting a machine from them is a little bit harder than getting it just about anywhere else. And, with the market for Linux machines being what it is, they are hardly going to be seeing lines at their door. The people who would have MAYBE tried Linux just won't bother. The people who use Linux as their primary OS, will just make do with what they have, or carefully try to find a machine that will take a Linux install. |
| jdixon Apr 07, 2015 10:40 AM EDT |
Regardless of how good or bad the machines ZaReason and System76 sell may be, there's one simple problem: I'm not going to spend $700 on a laptop. It's simply outside of my price range. I'll pick up a refurbished Dell machine from someone like http://www.paipc.com and install Linux on it instead. And if that isn't an option, I'll do without. My high end price is going to be something like $300, preferably lower. If they don't offer anything in that price range, they're not going to get business from me. I like their business concept, I like their machine quality, I like what their customers say about them, but they're simply outside what I can afford to spend. Which is fine, you can't please everyone. But I'm not the only one. In fact, the vast majority of potential customers are probably in the same boat. It should be possible to make low end Linux laptops, but no one seems to be doing so. |
| Jeff91 Apr 07, 2015 11:21 AM EDT |
Quoting:ATI graphics will work in Linux... It's not a spec that I (or most people looking for a laptop for work/school) care about. "Will work" and "works well" are two very, very different things. ATI provides a completely different end user experience than Intel does on Linux. You two don't seem to care about having Linux support or supporting the echo system at all. You just want something cheap. Which is fine, lots of people just want something cheap. I want to support Linux and I support machines that have good Linux support. |
| jdixon Apr 07, 2015 11:26 AM EDT |
> You just want something cheap. Which is fine, lots of people just want something cheap. ... I want to support Linux and I support machines that have good Linux support. We're not the ones forcing that decision, now are we? Besides, it's not a matter of wanting something cheap. That's the money I have to spend. It's either a cheap laptop or no laptop. |
| ljmp Apr 07, 2015 11:54 AM EDT |
@jdixon: The problem with low-end GNU/Linux distro laptops is that the market is minuscule. There's a minimum order just to stay in business, without even making a profit. The market for higher-end laptops of any kind is much larger, and the margins are also larger. So, it's easy to explain economically why there are no or very few low-end GNU/Linux laptop providers - barring the Chromebook, which is *not* GNU - just Linux. And the margin for that machine is paid with Personally Identifiable Information (PII) to Google and partners. |
| Jeff91 Apr 07, 2015 2:51 PM EDT |
Quoting:And the margin for that machine is paid with Personally Identifiable Information (PII) to Google and partners. Unless of course you wipe Chrome OS off of the hardware. |
| seatex Apr 07, 2015 3:57 PM EDT |
I also don't like to spend more than I need to on hardware these days. So, I usually shop ebay, craigslist, or local pawn shops for gently used fairly new laptops - always going with all Intel and Nvidia chipsets, avoiding AMD. As for Brands, I usually stick with Lenovo or Dell. I despise Chromebooks, and have no interest in them (or even converting them to Linux). |
| ljmp Apr 07, 2015 5:15 PM EDT |
@Jeff91: Perhaps. However, I still wouldn't want to encourage the Google marketing team by becoming a serial number on their positively sloped board room distribution charts. But that was another argument, at another time... In the non-Chromebook market, I seem to agree with you. |
| JaseP Apr 07, 2015 6:56 PM EDT |
Quoting: We're not the ones forcing that decision, now are we? Exactly! Computers are supposed to be general use devices that you can put whatever software you want on them. It's the manufacturers and MS which are forcing the issue, not us. I've converted a bunch of people to Linux. My girlfriend now codes because of this. I'm back in school, earning a second bachelors in Comp. Sci. with a focus on open source software. I'd say THAT is supporting the eco-system (echo-system?! ... LOL). If you believe that buying Linux pre-installs is the way to support the Linux (or, more correctly, the GNU) eco-system, I'd suggest reading some of Stallman's writings and watching his interviews. The point is for ALL hardware to work with a Free (as in the Four Freedoms) operating system. That means work has to continue, even with the hardware manufacturers who aren't particularly friendly (and I'd say especially with them) to the open source cause. Being selective as to what hardware you install your distros on isn't helping, any more so than buying software that is only designed to work on Windows (and using Wine or VMs to run it). That's the primary reason I signed up for Steam (I'm not much of a gamer, at least not anymore that I'm middle-aged). That supports the Linux eco-system directly (Valve's new OS is Debian based and now there are Linux native AAA software titles). And, for the cost of a few (cheap) titles, I've helped support Linux becoming more mainstream, as well as finally get to see what all the fuss was, about Portal & Portal 2. As for Google,... (unlike others here) I'm fine with both Android and Chrome (both have open source versions, after all). I'm also fine with Google making money off of me (can barely see how, since I'm currently a full time student,... but more power to them). I get a benefit from their free stuff, and I trust them more with my private data than I do the US Gov't. (the NSA, Social Security Admin. and/or Obama-care). Google, after all, doesn't want to give my info away... they want to be the gateway by which retailers can get access to me. To me, that's almost as much of a trustworthy relationship as I have with my bank (with actually less Gov't. regulation and information exchange). |
| seatex Apr 07, 2015 7:17 PM EDT |
JaseP - You are far more trusting of Google than I am. Eric Schmidt, Google's CEO, meets with Obama weekly at the White House. Google employees were some of Obama's biggest contributors. No coincidence. http://venturebeat.com/2015/03/24/googles-lobbying-efforts-p... He has said, "“If you have something that you don’t want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn’t be doing it in the first place.” Not exactly inspiring for my sense of trust. You can read several more of his enlightening quotes here... http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2011/01/21/top-10-the-quotable-e... |
| jdixon Apr 07, 2015 7:23 PM EDT |
> The problem with low-end GNU/Linux distro laptops is that the market is minuscule. I pretty sure people felt the same way about automobiles before Henry Ford. And Dell and HP do seem to keep offering those $300 and under laptops (I just checked, Dell has a $249 model and HP has a $279 one). Are you claiming almost no one is buying them? |
| ljmp Apr 07, 2015 7:42 PM EDT |
@jdixon: I'd gladly take a look if I had a link to the place you found the GNU/Linux pre-installed Dell for $249.00 or GNU/Linux pre-installed HP for $279.00. I don't doubt for a second that the low-end laptop market is booming. It's the GNU/Linux pre-installed low-end laptop market that's too small for direct support from a manufacturer. Or at least that *was* my understanding a few years ago when I last looked. But if you've got a link to look at - please share. @seatex: Agree. Google is not to be trusted. It's just business -- and they are not your friends... and will not hesitate for a single moment to sell their users data to the highest government bidder if threatened. |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 07, 2015 7:46 PM EDT |
I have bought $300 laptops, but I think the sweet spot is $500. System 76 does have a $600 laptop - https://system76.com/laptops/lemur. It does get more expensive if you spec it higher. That said, unless you really, really love fiddling and trying to get uncooperative hardware to work with Linux, I think what System 76 and ZaReason are selling is worth the money. I'm OK with the fiddling, but I've gone months and months with things not working the way they should on cheap Windows laptops. I will definitely consider going with a Linux laptop vendor next time. |
| ljmp Apr 07, 2015 8:27 PM EDT |
@JaseP: I know I shouldn't - because we really are all on the same side, but I can't resist pointing out the inconsistency in thought that:
As to Stallman and GNU/Linux. I doubt very much he would care if the GNU/Linux or the GNU/Hurd or the GNU/Mach distro is installed on *everything* ... FOSS is more than the Linux kernel, or I should say - It's the license that matters, not the code specifically. |
| jdixon Apr 07, 2015 9:11 PM EDT |
> I'd gladly take a look if I had a link to the place you found the GNU/Linux pre-installed Dell for $249.00 or GNU/Linux pre-installed HP for $279.00. Where did I say they were preloaded with Linux? However, as I noted before, my current laptop was a Dell that came with Ubuntu pre-installed. It was $200. It's a shame it's no longer available. There is a significant market for $300 and under laptops, whether they have Linux installed or not. ZaReason and System76 don't choose to serve that market. That's their decision, but it removes them as an option for me and many others. What you or anyone else thinks of that is immaterial; you can't get blood from a turnip. Like I said, I'll either pick up a refurbished machine and reload it or do without. |
| jdixon Apr 07, 2015 9:12 PM EDT |
> That said, unless you really, really love fiddling and trying to get uncooperative hardware to work with Linux, I think what System 76 and ZaReason are selling is worth the money. If you have the money, sure. I don't. Or rather, I have more important things to spend it on. |
| JaseP Apr 07, 2015 9:32 PM EDT |
@ ljmp: No logical inconsistency at all,... Hardware and software are two different things. System software and applications are also two different things... Buying systems specifically engineered to be compatible with Linux defeats the purpose getting the system software to run on all hardware. Buying (game) software promotes development/use of the platform... Again,... No inconsistency at all... |
| ljmp Apr 07, 2015 9:37 PM EDT |
@jdixon: I don't think anyone would discourage re-purposing older or low-end hardware if that's required for budget issues or just recycling what is available... I think the crux of the OP was *new* machines purchased from the original vendors. @JaseP: OK. |
| jdixon Apr 07, 2015 9:50 PM EDT |
> I think the crux of the OP was *new* machines purchased from the original vendors. Which would be preferable, if the new machines were affordable. But somehow Windows machines which are reasonably affordable continue to be sold, and apparently make money for their vendors. |
| ljmp Apr 07, 2015 10:30 PM EDT |
@jdixon: Yes. And that's because most people use Windows. Chromebooks sell because most people use Google services. And low-end OEM installed GNU/Linux laptops don't really exist in most countries, because no one [comparatively] buys those. I would love for this to change - but it just ain't gonna change anytime soon. |
| jdixon Apr 08, 2015 4:29 AM EDT |
> And low-end OEM installed GNU/Linux laptops don't really exist in most countries, because no one [comparatively] buys those. Otherwise known as catch-22. You can't buy what doesn't exist. |
| ljmp Apr 08, 2015 7:11 AM EDT |
@jdixon: The circular discussion about market based products... I really don't know if I believe in the "catch-22" anymore - but I know I did not too long ago. I've come to the conclusion that further circular discussion isn't going to make dinner -- but buying a product that has a serial number and a trackable volume that is tied to my preference of OS [on a high level - aka distro doesn't matter] has at least a small chance of making a difference in board rooms filled with decision makers with business degrees who really don't care what an OS might be - as long as it's making money for them. If a particular individual doesn't have the available cash on hand to buy into the current high-end market, I certainly am not judging that person in any way. However, no OEM manufacturer is going to make product choices based on second hand product sales - in which they make no margin. Anyway, this thread is getting too long... we'll need to start a new one sometime soon. |
| jdixon Apr 08, 2015 7:14 AM EDT |
> ...but buying a product that has a serial number and a trackable volume that is tied to my preference of OS... As I've pointed out, I did that. Dell discontinued the model and the program, and not for lack of sales. All indications are that it sold fairly well. |
| seatex Apr 08, 2015 8:31 AM EDT |
> Dell discontinued the model and the program, and not for lack of sales. All indications are that it sold fairly well. Then Microsoft stepped in, and made Dell an offer they couldn't refuse. |
| jdixon Apr 08, 2015 9:20 AM EDT |
> Then Microsoft stepped in, and made Dell an offer they couldn't refuse. Pretty much, yes. |
| CFWhitman Apr 08, 2015 9:55 AM EDT |
In my experience, it's still hard to find Linux pre-installs with a combination of build quality, cost, and features that match some Windows machines you can get whether you go high end or not. Dell: The prices are getting better for their high-end Linux pre-installs, but they're not fantastic (let me make it clear that these machines are even more expensive with Windows), and their customer service hasn't gotten glowing reviews. System76: I've never seen Clevo equipment with good build quality. I'd love for this to have changed, but my research doesn't support this so far. ZaReason: I've been under the impression that they sell Clevo equipment as well. Is this the case? ThinkPenguin: Some of their equipment is interesting, but I'm wary without knowing what ODMs they use (Clevo is popular, and others aren't necessarily better). High end laptops are expensive to experiment with, so I don't run out and buy all these things to figure out which are good and which are not so good. I haven't bought a new high end laptop in 6 years (primarily because the one I was using was still working very well up until a few weeks ago). It seems to me that Linux makes equipment a few years old feel like it's still high end, so I've been seriously considering a one-time high end, but now used/refurbished machine with no operating system. The one reason I have to look into new equipment is the combination of power, portability, and battery life that only very recent equipment can provide. I have pretty good portability and battery life with my Chromebook converted to Linux, and the build quality certainly seems acceptable for $250, but power is somewhat lacking (though it's fine for most things), and the build quality of higher end machines is still appealing. Incidentally, my experience has been that on machines a couple of years old or more AMD/ATI video works very well in Linux. On new machines that hasn't really been the case, but it seems that the point where these chipsets perform well with the open source drivers has gotten closer to current hardware in recent times. Hybrid graphics still seem to be a problem for both Nvidia and AMD though (perhaps more so with AMD). |
| patrokov Apr 16, 2015 4:55 PM EDT |
I bought a $300 Dell Win 8.1 on Black Friday because Wine mysteriously stopped running Quicken. The thing is so slow it can barely run Windows let alone a web browser. (Of course the worst feature is its chicklet keyboard.) I also have a refurbished Thinkpad (because it has a real keyboard). With Windows, it couldn't hold a network connection for more than five minutes. After a few days of troubleshooting I fixed it by installing Linux. (Of course the hard drive died after kids dropped it too many times.) I won't be buying any $1000 machine that comes with a chicklet keyboard. |
| seatex Apr 16, 2015 5:10 PM EDT |
> I won't be buying any $1000 machine that comes with a chicklet keyboard. I've always wondered about this with Mac buyers. And not only do most of the Mac keyboards have chiclets, they also lack a numeric keypad. |
| CFWhitman Apr 17, 2015 9:04 AM EDT |
I kind of had the same attitude about chiclet keyboards, but I have found that some chiclet keyboards are much better than others. Of course there is also an element of getting used to it involved. It looks as though soon we won't have any choice because just about all new laptops have chiclet keyboards. Really though, a good chiclet keyboard with indented buttons mostly just looks different than a traditional keyboard on a laptop. Whether or not you want a numeric keypad on a laptop really depends on what your using it for. A lot of people who do a lot of touch typing on their keyboards don't like them much because they offset the keyboard from the screen. However, people who do a lot of spreadsheet work and/or gaming tend to prefer to have them. That's why you do see some high end laptops without numeric keypads. It's generally the business and gaming aimed units that have them. |
| notbob Apr 17, 2015 9:32 AM EDT |
I see all this brouhaha over laptops. Why? Seems like a lot of you prefer laptops, for what reason I know not. Me, I'm looking for an iX Intel barebones to replace my ancient P4 desktop box. This looks good, but I've not researched other options, like CL and ebay, which my buddy assures me is a goldmine of used gaming boxes: http://tinyurl.com/lcphec9 The above is within my budget, yet, seems like a lotta goodies for not much $$$$. Am I stepping in it? This mobo got that UEFI nonsense. If not, I'm all over it! ;) |
| CFWhitman Apr 17, 2015 9:57 AM EDT |
I suspect that why laptops end up being a bigger part of the discussion when it comes to pre-installed Linux and related issues is because desktops are easy for a lot of Linux users. They just build them out of parts and don't worry about a whole package. It seems like my tendency is to build one and keep using it until I notice that it can no longer handle something on the Web or some game that I try to load on it. That usually takes five years or more. Then, of course, I have to familiarize myself with current technology before I can build a new one. At a glance I don't see anything about the machine you linked to that would be likely to be a problem. Usually motherboards that are sold separately don't have Secure Boot, and UEFI without Secure Boot is generally not a problem for a modern distribution. My most recent motherboard is UEFI without Secure Boot. However, I'm not current on what's a good deal and what's not for desktops right now. |
| notbob Apr 17, 2015 10:24 AM EDT |
> I have to familiarize myself with current technology before I can build a new one. Boy, howdy! I'm so out of date, hardware wise. Jes looked up reviews for that particular mobo and it's not pretty. Looks like I'm gonna hafta settle for one piece at a time in building my d/t box. OTOH, did a cursory look on ebay. Wow. Lotta choices for cheap. I may hold out for a used i7 rig, after all. Even some laptops. |
| jdixon Apr 17, 2015 1:03 PM EDT |
> Seems like a lot of you prefer laptops, for what reason I know not. Me, I'm looking for an iX Intel barebones to replace my ancient P4 desktop box. Laptops are for travel and use at work. I use a desktop at home. The best barebones site is probably still NewEgg, but I haven't seen a really good one in ages. :( However, if you missed the stories about it, you might want to check out http://symplepc.com/ |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 17, 2015 5:06 PM EDT |
I'm not sure you can get a laptop today w/o a "chicklet" keyboard. |
| gary_newell Apr 18, 2015 4:58 PM EDT |
I'm with Jeff on this one. Chromebooks are great devices. |
| penguinist Apr 18, 2015 6:43 PM EDT |
Chromebooks are great devices once you reflash them with pure Linux. |
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