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Microsoft and Abramoff: Influence in an Anti-Trust Outcome?

Posted by tadelste on Jan 12, 2006 3:31 PM · 35 comments
LXer.com; By Tom Adelstein



[Ed note: This article went into embargo right after publication. We brought it back after finding new evidentary material on which we will report soon.]

As a news organization, we first reported back in June that we had suspicions that ties existed between Jack Abramoff and Microsoft. Our initial report tied together research when the Washington Post disclosed that Preston Gates had paid an invoice for a trip made by Tom DeLay to play gold in Scotland. (Sorry that's a Freudian slip. I meant golf.)


Abramoff's guilty plea of last week helps us make our case and allows us to demonstrate our suspicions regarding Microsoft's ties to the Bush administration. The guilty plea also allows us to question whether Microsoft received favorable treatment by the Bush Justice department by paying Abramoff and his aides and partners, starting with Ralph Reed.

Our main concern deals with whether or not our government can use Microsoft's status as a monopoly and possible ties to a slew of politicians to stop its global attack on Linux.

Many observers have questioned the penalty phase and settlement in the case of UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff, v. MICROSOFT CORPORATION, Defendant. The general consensus among many observers says Microsoft got off too easy and "the fix was in".

Ralph Nader's http://www.cptech.org/ms/nader-doj01282002.html">letter to the court probably provides the most succinct summary of the various critics. Follow these excerpts:

  • We note at the outset that the decision to push for a rapid negotiation appears to have placed the Department of Justice at a disadvantage, given Microsoft's apparently willingness to let this matter drag on for years, through different USDOJ antitrust chiefs, Presidents and judges. The proposal is obviously limited in terms of effectiveness by the desire to obtain a final order that is agreeable to Microsoft.



  • We are disappointed of course to see a move away from a structural remedy, which we believe would require less dependence upon future enforcement efforts and good faith by Microsoft, and which would jump start a more competitive market for applications.



  • The proposed final order addresses important areas where Microsoft has abused its monopoly power... A need to have broader disclosure of file formats for popular office productivity and multimedia applications. Moreover, where Microsoft appears be given broad discretion to deploy intellectual property claims to avoid opening up its monopoly operating system where it will be needed the most, in terms of new interfaces and technologies.



  • Moreover, the agreement appears to give Microsoft too many opportunities to undermine the free software movement.



  • It is astonishing that the agreement fails to provide any penalty for Microsoft's past misdeeds, creating both the sense that Microsoft is escaping punishment because of its extraordinary political and economic power, and undermining the value of antitrust penalties as a deterrent.


So, let's just say a considerable concern exists that Microsoft got off the hook without penalties for their monopolistic practices from the past. They wiped most of the state' anti-trust suits away at the same time. The government did not break them up. They remain free to continue behaving as a monopoly in restraint of trade.



How did they pull it off? Well, I don't know, but I have my suspicions. Let's look at some interesting documents that might indicate they had help. The first of the documents is a 1998 report showing that Jack Abramoff lobbied for Microsoft. In figure one, you can clearly see that Abramoff did something for Microsoft. In figure two, you can see what the firm billed for his services. Also notice back in figure one, Abramoff collected money from the Business Software Alliance and the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians.





FIGURE ONE: US Lobby Registration & Reporting Disclosure Page -1998



Figure two is a supplemental report. You can click on this link to get the original page, then click on the filing type link to see the LOBBY REPORT



FIGURE TWO: Lobby Report Section 5 -1998



In the next year, you can see in figures three and four that Abramoff, once again, received money to lobby for Microsoft. In Figure three, you can also see his firm billed the Business Software Alliance and American Classic Voyages Co. So, any attempt to distance Preston Gates, Microsoft and the Business Software Alliance from the Abramoff capers would appear fruitless.

If the Bush Justice department does not investigate these connections, I would think that everyone in the world should start asking questions about the Administration's involvement with Microsoft.





FIGURE THREE: US Lobby Registration & Reporting Disclosure Page -1999



FIGURE FOUR: Lobby Report Section 5 -1999



Next Question: Ralph Reed and Other Bush Friends



Who is Ralph Reed? Ralph E. Reed Jr. runs a political consulting firm and operates as president of the Georgia Republican Party. He was Executive Director of the Christian Coalition 1989-1997. He lobbied for Microsoft until last year and simultaneously served as a senior Bush consultant during the 2000 campaign for President.



The Bush Justice department's pat on Microsoft's hand did not come as a surprise to those aware that Reed was on a $240,000 a year retainer with Microsoft while a campaign strategist for Bush 2000. Reed's connections to Abramoff and Scalion start to emerge from the fog of the wide spread scandals in Washington DC.



Reed has acknowledged that his consulting firm did business with Jack Abramoff and Mike Scanlon, the former spokesman for House Majority Leader Tom DeLay. Reed has said he knew the Washington lobbying firm that later fired Abramoff (Preston, Gates) was recruiting coalition members. Reed's company internal documents showed that the mission was to identify and recruit prominent Bush supporters to personally write and lobby Bush to back Microsoft.



Reed's contract with Microsoft proved an embarrassment to the Bush campaign in the summer of 2000. While under prosecution for anti-trust, Microsoft had hired a number of Bush aides as consultants and lobbyists including Reed.



According to the New York Times, Ralph Reed, a senior consultant to Gov. George W. Bush's presidential campaign, apologized ... for lobbying the governor on behalf of the Microsoft Corporation and promised not to lobby him again on behalf of Microsoft or anyone else.



One has to ask how Reed could lobby Bush for Microsoft, apologize and then say he would not lobby Bush? Microsoft continued to pay him. He could apologize all he wants, the damage already occurred. George Bush, we're told, listens to his advisors. This embarrassment and its subsequent apology sounds like more infuriating Microsoft-style, double-talk.



Meet the Players



We've identified Tom DeLay and Mike Scanlon, Jack Abramoff, Reed, Preston Gates, and the Business Software Alliance. We also will find Karl Rove in this mix. Sourcewatch tells us that "In January 2000, it was revealed that "Karl Rove, President Bush's top political adviser, recommended the Republican strategist Ralph Reed to the Enron Corporation for a lucrative consulting contract as Mr. Bush was weighing whether to run for president ..." Sourcewatch also claims that it allowed the Bush campaign to keep Reed off the payroll.



Additional names keep popping up in the investigations such as Warren RoBold, John Colyandro, Jim Ellis, Sam Walls and Kevin Brady among others. No one knows where this will lead, but one thing seems clear, Microsoft's lobbyists had a hand in asking for lienient treatment from the Bush Justice department.



In this mystery, shouldn't we at least identify the nexus? Is it Jack Abramoff or Ralph Reed? Or, is it someone who we have yet to identify? Whoever started it, certainly had a willing audience of hungry and ambitious politicians from whom to chose.



Now, we can only wonder if that same Justice department will turn over their findings to a special prosecutor. As we discovered during the Clinton administration, a trip to the White House by Bill Gates can wind up in a great deal for Microsoft. And while the Federal District Judge refused to approve the deal until Justice turned over their evidence to the court, Justice refused, appealed the Judge's decision and got a new judge.



Will DeLay's Collusion Spill Over to Microsoft?



The indictment of Tom DeLay by Texas prosecutors looks like the tip of the iceberg. Congress may finally have to hold an Ethics hearing and the closer they look, they'll find Bill Gates' Linux attack money. Will they try to connect the dots? The Gates and Dell family foundations have donated at least $350,000 to at least one of Tom DeLay's charities.



The future should prove interesting for those of us who wonder if justice will ever come to pass.




Note: In the event you attempt to access the link in Nader's letter, it will redirect to a different page. We reported this as a prevalent issue in a story entitle Did Bill Gates Invent Linux and Has He Erased the Evidence?. The story can be found here at web,archive.org

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Comments (35)

Comment on MS

Maybe my memory is fuzzy but... Didn't the original judge in this case (Jackson wasn't it?) spout off to the press regarding his feelings about Microsoft while the facts in the case were supposedly still under consideration? My memory is that if he hadn't stepped down there was a good chance for a mistrial and Microsoft would have loved that. It is also my recollection that this all started to unravel before Bush took office. That is not to say that the Bush administration has been a friend of Open Source, they certainly haven't. But the problems that the Federal government has in this area are far more insidious than who is in the oval office.

I worked in government all during the Clinton administration and it was during that time that the Feds stopped allowing proposal documents to be submitted in WordPerfect format, or in fact any format other than Word. This was a huge boon for Microsoft as many companies (mine included) dumped every bit of non-Microsoft infrastructure in favor of the Microsoft equivalents. Sub-departments at Energy were told they could not continue running OS/2 even though they were delighted with it. I didn't stick around to see if they dumped Novel, but I'm sure they did. Was this all a conspiracy formed in the Clinton administration?

Sadly, our Federal bureaucracy is composed largely of non-technical managers who are way over their heads when it comes to these types of decisions. Offer the right person in a department a glass paperweight to use your stuff and likely all of his peers will follow, like lemmings, afraid to make an independent decision on anything.

What is needed here is legislation (and I agree that neither party seems to see this need as a priority). On top of the legislation, which would mandate a more competitive process for software engineering we need new blood in these entrench bureaucracies. I don't know how this will come about without firing some of the more clueless department heads, and I don't see any such thing coming down the pike. Our only hope is that some other countries will adopt Open Source and embarrass the hell out of us when it comes to productivity, security and (not often spoken of) the ability to control your own life-cycle methodologies independent of vendor planned obsolescence.

Anyway, I'm glad to see you reporting on this and it would be a great outcome if this scandal helped shed the light of day on bad software practices at the Fed.
The original Judge wasn't Jackson. The original judge was Stanley Sporkin, U.S. District Judge for the District of Columbia. He refused to approve the Clinton administration's settlement. That led to an appeal and the appeals court sent it to Jackson. No chance of a mistrial existed. Microsoft fast tracked the appeals process to the SC. The discussion with the press shouldn't have had anything to do with the outcome.

David Boise, SCO's attorney was the prosecuting attorney for the Justice department. He represented Gore in the challenge in Flordia, so he wasn't exactly available for the rest of the anti-trust case when Bust took over. You think anything went on around Boise, SCO and MS?

> Was this all a conspiracy formed in the Clinton administration?

Given how often Windows servers go down, would you have expected anything else from Bill Clinton?
Gates made a trip to visit Clinton in 1998 and one month later the Justice department compromised and reached a settlement that only addressed multi-processor licensing. But the judge wanted to see the Justice department's files. Justice refused. The evidence which surfaced in big trial came from the original investigation. Clinton was handcuffed by a special prosecutor and could do no more favors. Then, Bush took over and they let Microsoft go as well as David Boise.

This is not new but ...

Don't mean to troll or anything - I am impressed with Tom's work but I am also disturbed that a large part of the gnu/linux/libre community only now seems to be upset or even noticing this government for sale business now that the MS role is being revealed. They are doing what all the other corporations do and that is they are buying politicians. Campaign contributions have been a legal form of bribery for a long time. Abramoff and others have just taken it farther - a lot farther. It has been apparent for years that if you pay enough you call the shots - it's just that the current US administration has gone so much farther - I mean they DID let energy company representatives basically write official gov't energy policy. But nobody seemed to care - even after the California crisis.

I guess what I am saying is that yes this is really bad but it is even worse and pervades every aspect of our federal government. So I am urging everyone to look around them and support reform before we completely lose our democracy - what's left of it.

Thanks for your work, Tom

OF
I completely agree. Fundamental reform is required in DC. Personally I favor the abolition of private donations to politicians completely. They should be funded by a special tax levy and their funding level determined by their past vote getting record. That way they will listen to voters not donors. In addition the obnoxious propaganda that passes for electoral debate at present will be eliminated.

Pipe dream? Probably but it is the solution.
> I completely agree. Fundamental reform is required in DC. Personally I favor the abolition of private donations to politicians completely.

Except for the minor fact that the Supreme Court has ruled on serveral occasions that not allowing individuals to donate money is a direct infrigment of the the first amendment.

IMO, you'd have better luck banning donations from busineses and organizations than from individuals, and it would probably be more effective.
jdixon is absolutely right (IMO). But let's look at Microsoft, they have 30,000 workers who get some a stipend to donate. Somehow, MS management directs those contributions to its PAC.

Quoting:I am also disturbed that a large part of the gnu/linux/libre community only now seems to be upset or even noticing this government for sale business now that the MS role is being revealed. They are doing what all the other corporations do and that is they are buying politicians.


When I started this investigation - November 2002, I felt quite alone. Few people eveen read my articles. I had lost government accounts to Microsoft and didn't know why. In 2000, the LA School District had purchased dozens of my servers to replace Exchange. Then out of nowehre, the CIO for the district said, "we use Microsoft." The same thing happened with the State of Alabama. The City of Largo went 100% Linux and Microsoft offered to replace everything.

No one seemed interested. So, I began to investigate. Everything we need exists. The trial records alone provide an abundance of information as do PAC contribution records, Senate and House required filings. And while I believe Gates is behind the eradication of news articles unfavorable to his image, we can still find some articles.

Recently, I have noticed unfavorable articles disappearing from the web archives site. So, he has also gotten there.

Its better late than never. Somehow, I feel that sitting back and hoping Linux wins while a $50 billion corporation is on the attack may not be our best strategy.

BTW, the old story that other corporations do this is a myth. I've investigated that too. The top companies in the world have but a handful of Lobbyists. The defense contractors hire a few former DoD people because if they hire too many, they don't do as well. Bias exists because the guys still at DoD, etc. recent the fact that a former colleague makes more money than them.

Most firms hired lobbyists like the firm Preston Gates bought and only for specific issues.

Microsoft on the other hand has armies of these guys and a lot of them are former intelligence community members. That's scary to me.
Quoting:And while I believe Gates is behind the eradication of news articles unfavorable to his image, we can still find some articles.


That infamous Albuquerque police dept mug shot (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/152803.stm) of a young Bill Gates exists, but the crime allegedly committed has disappeared.

We only hear the echoes, I guess.
http://www.thecorporation.com/

See this film if you haven't already. It explains how it all began and the bizarre fact that corporations are "recognised as a person" under the 14th(?) ammendment (this happened just after WW2) which was originally passed to protect newly freed slaves. Point being that in said ammendment persons are not allowed to be deprived of their right to earn money, so, in the end, until someone overrules the idea that corporations are covered by the 14th, nothing much will change.

Please forgive me if I've got the ammendment number wrong.

The even more scary thing would be if Mr. Gates was part of PNAC. http://www.newamericancentury.org/
"BTW, the old story that other corporations do this is a myth."

Maybe, maybe not.

Here is something that is completely legal and public:

[url=http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/m-wfsection article articleid-2071.html]http://www.allamericanpatriots.com/m-wfsection article artic...[/url]

This is just for an inauguration - and on the books but I don't believe these corporations are giving this money out of a sense of patriotism or something.

As far as I know most of Abramoff's donors haven't been named although we do know about the millions from a Russian oil company.

OF
oilyfish: Let me clarify this. Other corporations do not hire gangs of lawyers globally to influence every government in the world. They don't even do it in the US.

Sure, I agree that corporations and individuals pay huge amounts of money out in contributions. Microsoft isn't even at the top in contributions.

But Microsoft spends more money on their political agenda than just for contributions. They have their own Microsoft lobbyists and they pay Preston Gates and several other lobbying firms and they pay the BSA and they make non-political contributions to organizations like Tom DeLay's foundations.

Do the math.

"Do the math."

Tom, don't get hostile on me (if you are) that quote seems that way to me anyway. I think MS is despicable and their use of lawyers and BSA thugs maybe unique in its scope (not personally sure) but multinationals have been (still are) paying bribes to government officials, police, and courts around the world. Sometimes it's legal as in the campaign contributions and sometimes it's not.

I've been around - lived in the so-called 3rd world for more than 20 years and have seen the results from both ends.

I'll grant you that the Intellectual Property hammer that MS is wielding is a bit new but not so different from drug patents now that I think about it.

Anyway we are on the same side - I think. I believe the problem is much much bigger than MS, though.

OF

Oh, how do you make the nifty little Quotation box?
oilyfish: I didn't intend hostility in any way. I get very busy around here and tend to use shorter sound bytes than I did just a few weeks ago.

I do agree that we're on the same side. The problem is much bigger than Microsoft. I think the condition on the planet is disloyalty. So, use that as a context and lots of things seem wacked out.

[ quote ] [ /quote ] with the brackets up tight. If I did it, it would disappear.

Back to the thought. I have experience in the third world also. I don't mention payoffs, because I want to continue living for a while. You and I may know how much companies budget for payoffs.

The WORSE country of which I know is India. You can't do anything without paying some official something. ALL THE OFFSHORE FIRMS REQUIRE AN OFFICIAL TO GET PAID SOMETHING ON THE SIDE. PEOPLE FLY FROM THE STATES TO PUT MONEY IN THE BANK ACCOUNTS OF H1B WORKERS HERE TO AVOID TAXES AND OUR GOVERNMENT KNOWS ABOUT IT AND DOESN'T DO SQUAT!!!!!!!!

But, I have never seen an organization with an army the size of Microsoft and that says something because we have companies like GATES (no relation) that also employs vast numbers of people to maintain their monopoly in US Federal procurement. But even they can't hold a candle to Microsoft.

Otherwise, I think I'll sort of lay low for awhile.

:)
Quoting:The WORSE country of which I know is India.


( I just had to try the quote - I had tried that with pointy brackets and it didn't work.)

I lived 6 years in Nigeria where EVERYTHING is for sale to the highest bidder - so I can relate.

Written text without benefit of visual and auditory cues is so easy to misinterpret.

Anyway I really like this site and I am afraid you may have already said too much Tom for your own good - especially as I think you make your living in IT - but I applaud your efforts and courage.

OF
Quoting: Otherwise, I think I'll sort of lay low for awhile.


Tom, I noticed you have been working too hard and it shows. The things you have been putting out is amazing and I don't know how you carry on like that. You need to slow down a little guy.

This little good tip for "Quoted" could be very helpful if it can be added among other tips next to "Preview" & "Send" as Help for other posters. I am sure many don't know it and could make use of it.
Since I'm laying low.........I'll pass it along to Dave......shus!
Tom,

You are AWESOME!

Don't listen to anybody, you do what you believe is right! Don't listen to either if you don't want too :-)

I have been a student of history all of my life, and what you are doing is recording a history, and presenting that recording here.

You are smart, and you are well researched, and yes you have an attitude, any decent historian does.

Get used to it people, real knowledge comes from real people.

I happen to like the way you write, it conveys what you believe in clearly and succinctly.
sharkscott,

My suggestion to Tom to slow down a little is out of concern for his well being nothing else. I hope you weren't insinuating anything else!

We all appreciate (except for a few) Tom's intelegence, efforts, contributions, dedication, etc, but some of us are concerned about his health and happiness too. Dedicated people like Tom some times get carried away without realizing what it is doing to them physically and emotionally. Sometimes it takes someone from the outside to drop a hint.
Abe: You are correct, I was not insinuating anything else, I just wanted to let him know how I felt. Honest.

I do care about his well being too, I just wanted him to know that there was a guy out there that thinks what he is doing is worth it.

I never intentionally try to flame or spread hate, I just say how I feel. He deserves a little bit of cheerleading for what he is doing. Now I know that I am not "little" or cute in any way shape or form:-), it is just my way of trying to "pump him up" ;-)

Your cool, I'm cool, we're cool.
sharkscott: While I'm laying low, I thought I'd peep out and say thanks. You show a kindness not many people share. But my health is OK, especially in the stamina department. I only have one thing I want to say; I rather burn out than fade away!
tadelste: luv is real, not fade away
The University of California at Berkeley Enron Email Database seems to be shut down. - Any ideas as to how to restore access?

__________

That means emails like this (Ralph Reed to Rick Shapiro of Enron about Jack Abramoff) are no longer easy to get to:

From: ralph@censtrat.com To: rshapiro@enron.com Cc: Bcc: Date: 19 Dec 2000 15:19 PST Subject: abramoff Rick, good to see you today. excited about the prospects of the new office, kitchen cabinet/advisory team, etc. as we discussed, jack abramoff is joining barry richards' law firm, Greenberg Traurig, on january 1. richards was just named lawyer of the year by the American lawyer while abramoff is arguably the most influential and effective gop lobbyist in congress. i share several clients with him and have yet to see him lose a battle. he also is very close to Delay and could help enormously on that front. raised $ for bush. until december 31 he can be reached at 202-661-3851. he assistant is Susan Ralston.

campaign year again

Tom,

GREAT work and great article! My apology if *I've* seen and passed over your writing on this subject earlier.

One would THINK a campaign year would be a good time to highlight abuses. Not that the lip service politicians give during campaigns is really of any value.

I am once again using it as an opportunity to communicate with candidates on OSS issues, and of course abuses by proprietary companies must be part of that.

I'd LOVE to send the link to your article to a couple of candidates, but of course that isn't likely to actually GET TO the candidate anyway!!!

I'll share this as best as I can, anyway, though!

Paul H.
Paul,

I just got some information that we're checking out. From Tom DeLay's web site. One of our contacts and a person who has tracked this from years ago:

Tom DeLay's new assignment: On the committee that oversees funding of the Jack Abramoff, Preston Gates, and Microsoft ties.

OK, Stanley, the committee will look at your request and we'll proably approve it as long as it does ouch the folks in redmond. is that clear Stanley?

Yes Senator.

Ah, what's that about?
Tom,

A respected, popular (conservative Republican) local talk show host recently commented that the party in power always took advantage of opportunities to abuse the system. He conveyed the strong impression that he was seriously disappointed, which is especially interesting since he's not exactly new to the scene.

So, does that mean corruption is reaching new heights in this 'age' of our nation and world?

But, we DO need MORE factual reporting with LESS grudge slanting. I don't think I'm worried about you participating in a grudge match... :)

Well... never give up. What else can we do?
Factual reporting, huh?

Here we go:

http://tomdelay.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentI...

note in the press release below: (Brought to my attention by Dr. Gene Nelson)

assigned DeLay to two subcommittees: Science, State, Justice & Commerce (SSJC) and Homeland Security.

Washington, Feb 8 -

Congressman Tom DeLay (R-Sugar Land) today thanked the House Republican Steering Committee for re-appointing him to the Appropriations Committee and pledged to work on the committee for the interests and values of his constituents in Texas.

“It’s great to be back,” DeLay said. “The Appropriations Committee’s agenda touches on every challenge now facing the people of the 22nd district, and my votes will reflect Texas values.”

Appropriations Committee Chairman Jerry Lewis (R-Cal.) quickly assigned DeLay to two subcommittees: Science, State, Justice & Commerce (SSJC) and Homeland Security.

“On these subcommittees, I’ll directly oversee funding priorities for NASA and our border/homeland security infrastructure, both critical assets to the Houston region. My priorities are clear: fully funding NASA’s budget and protecting Houston’s security vulnerabilities,” DeLay said.

Lewis welcomed DeLay’s return to the committee. “Tom has always been a strong advocate for fiscal conservatism,” Lewis said. “As majority leader, he was instrumental in bringing our appropriations bills in on time and on budget. As a member of our committee, I know we can count on the same commitment and energy.”

DeLay served on the Committee from 1987 until 2003, and he will rejoin the committee as its sixth most senior Republican.

###

Yo momma. It means what you know it means. New heights? Nixon and watergate sorta.

What else can we do?

Give the governing party such a shellacking come November that both sides think twice about trying this kind of corruption next year. I remember one Canadian election several years ago when the governing party was reduced from 190 seats in the House of Commons to 2 seats and the PM lost his seat. That kind of crushing defeat gets the message through (at least for a while).
> Give the governing party such a shellacking come November that both sides think twice about trying this kind of corruption next year.

As long as the Republicans and Democrats think they're the only two choices available, voting out the current one will make no difference. They know they'll be voted back in when the other party gets caught doing the same thing, which is only a matter of time.Both parties are so corrupted by power that they're incapable of real reform. It will take the rise of a third party to get any real change.
Jdixon, unfortunately, a third party will never stand a chance in our current political system. Personally, I'm a big advocate of ranked voting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system#Ranked_voting_met...), I believe it's the best way to diversify the party choices.

-> Fritz
I've discussed this with people who manage advocate web sites. I find some incredible "sound" evidence. It just gets ignored.

The reason people get political power is they slip politicians favors through shills, etc. Then the politician can't speak or take action for fear of being exposed.

The interesting thing about that: It doesn't cost a lot to get them compromized - a few thousand dollars will do it.

Getting the mainstream news media excited will do it.
Fritz:

> unfortunately, a third party will never stand a chance in our current political system.

Possibly true, but it's also possible that you're being too pessimistic. Things have changed before and they can again. It wasn't that many years ago that people were predicting the eventual fall of the west to communism, after all. A lot can change in 20 or 30 years, much less 50-100. Of course, that assumes the US government as it currently exists can last that long, which if current spending patterns continue is problematic.
jdixon: I think it stinks but fritz is pretty much right. The way that the Constitution is worded and because of how the process of creating a political party is recognized by the government, the existing parties have to allow it to happen. The amount of critical mass(number of representatives) required for the government to recognize a new political party can never happen without representatives from the existing parties voting in favor of it. Which will never happen. Even if there were 100 "Independent" representatives in Congress and they all voted together, all the time, the existing parties would never let a third party come into existence and take seats in commitees, push their own legislation through and take political influence from them.

You are right that things have changed in the past and things can change again, but. Even if as you say that the government cannot go on the way it is going, the Federal Government is pretty much like a huge corporation and even if it cannot function in its duties it will assert its right to exist, no matter what. The Government can change the laws to suit itself and like is already happening for the big corperations, legislate its rights to supersede those of the individual. Which we all know has already happened.

It stinks, but the Bull and Moose party was a one time thing. Rupert Murdoch and many others will not allow there to be anyone but a Republican in the White House ever again. The voting machines are rigged the same way the system is, they have a 6 to 3 advantage in the Supreme Court and then there is the possibility of another 9/11 sending us into police state status, forever. The Democratic Party is all but marginalized, all a Republican has to do is say "Gay Marriage" and they will win any election. Because Republican or Democrat aside, Fundamentalists will not vote for a candidate that allows Gay Marriage to be allowed by the Federal Government. That issue alone can keep the Conservatives in power forever.

Roe vs Wade will be overturned. Non-belief in God will be considered "Terrorist Thought" Corporations will rule unhindered - which has already happened.

Just think of us as the U.S.S.R in the 50's and 60's, only with a "free" press. Free, yeah right.

The slate needs to be wiped clean but the time of revolutions has passed my friends. The only way it will ever really change is if we are all willing to die to change it. If we can no longer protest our own Government and at the same time they have the ability to detain anyone for any reason for as long as they want? Suspicions become facts? The Patriot Act was the last nail in the coffin for the right of the average citizen.

But I am really not trying to be pessimistic about it. Honest. :-)
sharkscott:

Lots that I could comment on, but this is verring to far into politics and could trigger Tom's delete key. :) Suffice it to say that I share your concerns and am equally pessimitic about the future of the US. Fortunately, I know there are powers stonger than any government, and have faith they will see us through.
Your right jdixon, veering too far. For the record, I may be Agnostic but I respect that others are not like me. It is the people who use their beliefs as a vehicle to control others that I do not respect. That's what really burns me up. Because I know that if there is a God, he is about Love, not Hate.

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