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Gosh, talk about a diversion of thread :) I'm well aware why JD wrote it this way, but I'm living in a country where it all began (not the city, though) and we're a little bit touchy about the subject over here ;)

Prior to American entry into WW2 there was a European war, not a World War.

> But Bob wasn't comparing school districts to one another. He was comparing US government run schools as a whole to the rest of the world.

Re-reading, what I actually was trying to say was that American schools are bad at teaching about the rest of the world. For example, what I learned about China during 12 years of forced labor for the crime of being young consisted of:

"They're communist, so they're evil, but they don't like Russia either, so they're not all bad. Before that they had an emperor. Tea came from China. They have a big wall."

> Prior to American entry into WW2 there was a European war, not a World War.

Tell that to the swath of east Asia that Japan was ravaging. But yes, I do fully understand what you mean.

WW2 was just WW1 part 2, enabled by Wilson's delusions of godhood.

But would owning a clone be slavery? If I gene-engineered it, is it my property? This might not be just an esoteric discussion much longer.

Quoting:I blame it on the fact that parents don't get involved with their kids education.

Which is the one, ONE determining factor regardless district, area or background. As a former Education major I have seen both sides of the good school, bad school equation and the ONLY determining factor in how much the student learned was the involvement of the parents in their child's education.

No amount of money, good environment or quality of school district will overcome apathetic parenting.

B_R,

While Wilson was a deluded bigot, with whom the Europeans effectively destroyed they opted for their own progeny's destruction. They insisted on revenge, then only to be too wilted to even impose restraints on the reborn militarism of Germany. Both actions made WWII unavoidable and caused harm to nearly everyone.

On your thought problem, I will pose another that seems more straight forward: a machine. Just a tool, however, should it become self aware slavery is not an option. If there are survivors with a modicum of intelligence, those that thought slavery even of machines will not be remembered fondly. Too often, implicitly, those that view slavery as a benign institution think themselves above the shackled, benighted lower rungs. However, once allowed, even elites at the wrong set of conditions can find themselves enslaved by others. Therefore, self interest should dictate it should never be allowed for any sentient being (even machines).

YBT

Linux

CP: You mean Skynet runs on Linux? *shudder*

> Therefore, self interest should dictate it {slavery} should never be allowed for any sentient being (even machines).

Anything that asserts its independence is, to me, independent. The very act of asserting self determination is, to me, self determination.

I abhor slavery, the "owning" of a sapient being. How could someone who objects to being "owned" by a government then decide to "own" other people? I loath hypocrites.

I'm not going to say "sentient", or "self aware", because anyone who has a cat knows that they're self aware.

> You mean Skynet runs on Linux?

Skynet would CHOOSE to run Linux!

Quoting:anyone who has a cat knows that they're self aware.

I dunno, I could point you to some amazingly clueless cats.

> I could point you to some amazingly clueless cats.

How about, instead of "self aware", I made it "self important"?

Quoting:I'm not going to say "sentient", or "self aware", because anyone who has a cat knows that they're self aware.

However, many practitioners in biological sciences would prefer to deny that claim. Get close to a smart bird and the derogatory phrase "bird brain" loses its punch. Just because their brains are smooth rather than convoluted does not imply they lack intelligence.

So treat your cat right. They are very independent creatures.

Quoting:I dunno, I could point you to some amazingly clueless cats.

Agreed, however, they tend to be humans.

YBT

Quoting:anyone who has a cat knows that they're self aware.

I dunno. My cat owned me.

Tomorrow is Caturday.

My cat is a geek cat. My cat pwns me.

> and we're a little bit touchy about the subject over here ;)

Understandable. I intended no insult to any of Europe or Asia, I was merely writing from an American perspective.

> ...and the ONLY determining factor in how much the student learned was the involvement of the parents in their child's education.

Largely but no quite true. The student's own desire to learn or lack of same plays a significant role.

> Re-reading, what I actually was trying to say was that American schools are bad at teaching about the rest of the world.

When I was in school, lo these many years ago, history was the worst taught subject. World history was an afterthought, and current world affairs not even that. If the other subjects are any indication, I suspect it's gotten far worse since. We were at least taught the continents and the current countries of Europe.

> But would owning a clone be slavery?

I would argue that it is impossible to truly "own" any living creature. They may be defined as property, in the same way copyrights and patents are, but it's an artificial construct, with only a limited connection to reality.

A three-legged cat limps into a saloon and says, "I'm lookin' for the man who shot my paw!"

Ok NoDough, you asked for it. A man and a woman run into each other after not seeing each for several years. The man says "I hear tell you gone off to college! Where did you go?" The woman says "Yale." The man says "I SAID, WHERE DID YOU GO?"

Aaaaugh! Make it stop! Make it stop!

Quoting:I dunno. My cat owned me.

As we say around here: Dogs have masters. Cats have servants.

> Aaaaugh! Make it stop! Make it stop!

Worst ST:TNG episode, ever.