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What will it take for Linux and Open Source to dethrone Microsoft?
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Comments (90)
70 earlier comments in the full thread.
WRT Apple:
Great example, given that Apple is known as one of the most innovative companies in the industry, certainly most imitated.
Apple proves that user awareness is not a constraint. Just look at the OS! Windows has progressed from 16 bit Intel to 32 bit Intel to (lately and finally) 64 bit AMD/Intel. Macs have gone from Motorola to Power to Intel. They've gone from Apple-grown OS to one founded on BSD. Criminies!! That doesn't even get to user friendliness.
Or iPods or iPhones.
For a non-Apple example, look at the huge success of the WII gaming console, the least powerful of the three major gaming systems, but the one that most successfully engages the users.
Innovation and great results do not require arrogance and intellectual laziness. That is the way to Zunes and XBoxes. Servicable, maybe even shiny and cool in a way, but not, to borrow a Jobsism, insanely great.
Great example, given that Apple is known as one of the most innovative companies in the industry, certainly most imitated.
Apple proves that user awareness is not a constraint. Just look at the OS! Windows has progressed from 16 bit Intel to 32 bit Intel to (lately and finally) 64 bit AMD/Intel. Macs have gone from Motorola to Power to Intel. They've gone from Apple-grown OS to one founded on BSD. Criminies!! That doesn't even get to user friendliness.
Or iPods or iPhones.
For a non-Apple example, look at the huge success of the WII gaming console, the least powerful of the three major gaming systems, but the one that most successfully engages the users.
Innovation and great results do not require arrogance and intellectual laziness. That is the way to Zunes and XBoxes. Servicable, maybe even shiny and cool in a way, but not, to borrow a Jobsism, insanely great.
hk,
Well gus is REALLY not so bad, once you get to know him particularly the third iteration.
YBT
Quoting:Lawyers, gus and money are not going to help the FOSS-movement [...]Freudian slip?
Well gus is REALLY not so bad, once you get to know him particularly the third iteration.
YBT
Don't worry, I'm no threat to anyone at the moment. I'm snowed in.
gus3 --
My empathies. We are also snowed in.
On the positive side, it looks like we will avoid major global warming events that could drag our termperatures down.
My empathies. We are also snowed in.
On the positive side, it looks like we will avoid major global warming events that could drag our termperatures down.
gus: "Anti-FLOSS counterfeiting / open source piracy prevention competition stimulating genuine intelligent innovation empowerment design cadence" snow-training in Alaska, uh? Sure you're no threat? Be sure to great the Snow Leopard on our behalves.
Txt: Told 'ya, gus is with the Snow Leopards now; he's lost for FLOSS for eternity - and beyond. Or at least until the snow melts (when the earth moves again?) and the Leopard hides.
Hey, speakin' snow and stuff: You know what's funny about the city where I live? If there's 5cm / two inches of snow they consider it too dangerous to collect garbage. Because the snow melts, then freezes again, and then all the roads are speed skating lanes - especially funny to ride with a car with summer-tires and only 2,3mm (0.1inch) of profile. And then our stupid governmen is almost out of salt, while there are plenty of salt mines in this country. Considering the rising sea levels you suppose they would use some salt water from the sea to clean the streets instead (hell yeah, freakin' good idea!), but they're too lame to do even just that.
However, with 40 degrees below zero (don't ask me how much Fahrenheit), cities like Moscow still function. And most of the times in the US too - I believe, because out there they're used to real winters. So I guess it's really bad over there. Maybe make a nice snowman and send us some pictures? And drink a hot choco on my behalf.
Txt: Told 'ya, gus is with the Snow Leopards now; he's lost for FLOSS for eternity - and beyond. Or at least until the snow melts (when the earth moves again?) and the Leopard hides.
Hey, speakin' snow and stuff: You know what's funny about the city where I live? If there's 5cm / two inches of snow they consider it too dangerous to collect garbage. Because the snow melts, then freezes again, and then all the roads are speed skating lanes - especially funny to ride with a car with summer-tires and only 2,3mm (0.1inch) of profile. And then our stupid governmen is almost out of salt, while there are plenty of salt mines in this country. Considering the rising sea levels you suppose they would use some salt water from the sea to clean the streets instead (hell yeah, freakin' good idea!), but they're too lame to do even just that.
However, with 40 degrees below zero (don't ask me how much Fahrenheit), cities like Moscow still function. And most of the times in the US too - I believe, because out there they're used to real winters. So I guess it's really bad over there. Maybe make a nice snowman and send us some pictures? And drink a hot choco on my behalf.
-40c == -40f, it's the crossover point.
Hans:
Hot choco accomplished. Pictures, not. Night here.
Hot choco accomplished. Pictures, not. Night here.
@hans:
December 27, 1983, I was in Atlanta, during the once-every-ten-years snowstorm. Well, they called it a "storm"; we called it "nothing to worry about, just go a bit slower." That's why we were the only ones who drove to McDonald's that morning. Everyone else who was there, lived within walking distance, because there's no reason to prepare for weather that comes only once every ten years. (This current weather is some deja-vu of that cold snap.)
Ditto the middle of February, 2004, in west Texas, except that was ice. The sheriff ordered all non-essential personnel off the roads. I was unimpressed, until I got out of the car and saw the icicles on the radio antenna.
BTW, 40 degs below zero is the same on both scales.... but maybe you were simply making a joke.
December 27, 1983, I was in Atlanta, during the once-every-ten-years snowstorm. Well, they called it a "storm"; we called it "nothing to worry about, just go a bit slower." That's why we were the only ones who drove to McDonald's that morning. Everyone else who was there, lived within walking distance, because there's no reason to prepare for weather that comes only once every ten years. (This current weather is some deja-vu of that cold snap.)
Ditto the middle of February, 2004, in west Texas, except that was ice. The sheriff ordered all non-essential personnel off the roads. I was unimpressed, until I got out of the car and saw the icicles on the radio antenna.
BTW, 40 degs below zero is the same on both scales.... but maybe you were simply making a joke.
Gus3 --
Lovely memories of Texas ice storms and commuting to work.
Lots of Country Cadillacs (know to many as pick 'em up trucks) off the side of the road, as well as the forerunners of today's SUVs driven by people who didn't understand that:
1. All vehicles have four wheel brakes, which are what stop you, so 4WD don't buy you a thing in the come to a stop department, and
2. 4 * 0 is 0, as in close enough to the coefficient of friction on glare ice that it should get your attention.
Lovely memories of Texas ice storms and commuting to work.
Lots of Country Cadillacs (know to many as pick 'em up trucks) off the side of the road, as well as the forerunners of today's SUVs driven by people who didn't understand that:
1. All vehicles have four wheel brakes, which are what stop you, so 4WD don't buy you a thing in the come to a stop department, and
2. 4 * 0 is 0, as in close enough to the coefficient of friction on glare ice that it should get your attention.
No, I was not joking, I was too lazy to type
Ctrl+L, g -40C in F
Now I did, and Google agrees.
BTW when building dykes, it's usual to prepare for once in three centuries storms, at least in my country (US is to follow I believe, I think their target is once in a century now). But when collecting salt, it isn't usual to collect for once in thirty year snow, like in my country this winter. So their new plan is to shut down some highways this weekend, and to mine for some new salt. After they mined the new salt, the people living above the salt will live 5mm lower for the rest of their lives. And still no legendary Elfstedentocht (11-city tour, the world's largest and longest speed skating competition and leisure skating tour only taking place if the ice is thick enough). Well, we'll wait, this weekend will bring more snow over here they tell. I have only 800gr. of salt left, maybe it's a nice investment...
Ctrl+L, g -40C in F
Now I did, and Google agrees.
BTW when building dykes, it's usual to prepare for once in three centuries storms, at least in my country (US is to follow I believe, I think their target is once in a century now). But when collecting salt, it isn't usual to collect for once in thirty year snow, like in my country this winter. So their new plan is to shut down some highways this weekend, and to mine for some new salt. After they mined the new salt, the people living above the salt will live 5mm lower for the rest of their lives. And still no legendary Elfstedentocht (11-city tour, the world's largest and longest speed skating competition and leisure skating tour only taking place if the ice is thick enough). Well, we'll wait, this weekend will bring more snow over here they tell. I have only 800gr. of salt left, maybe it's a nice investment...
Quoting:1. All vehicles have four wheel brakes, which are what stop you, so 4WD don't buy you a thing in the come to a stop department,
Depends. On a manual you get engine braking, very useful in marginal traction conditions. Of course most people these days only know how to use the brakes, and or drive automatics.
@tracyanne You can actually do engine braking with an automatic if you are willing to move the lever down from D.
I don't know if it is engine braking, but you should always put an automatic in neutral when trying to stop on ice.
Some new automatics have traction control systems that adjust the transmission and engine timing to allow better control on ice. The timing changes are to prevent a stall when the transmission changes are made.
putting the car in neutral would probably not be helpful in these cases.
It really depends on the car.
Learning to drive as a youth in Chicago with rear wheel drive V8's has helped in all kinds of icy conditions. Front wheel drive and a manual transmission works best for me in bad weather.
Except when I lived in Cincinnati and there were ice storms. Cincinnati is all hills and has fewer than 30 square feet of flat surface. Cars that were standing still would start sliding downhill there!
Whee!
putting the car in neutral would probably not be helpful in these cases.
It really depends on the car.
Learning to drive as a youth in Chicago with rear wheel drive V8's has helped in all kinds of icy conditions. Front wheel drive and a manual transmission works best for me in bad weather.
Except when I lived in Cincinnati and there were ice storms. Cincinnati is all hills and has fewer than 30 square feet of flat surface. Cars that were standing still would start sliding downhill there!
Whee!
@bigg:
That is not engine braking; it is merely disconnecting nearly-constant engine drag from the wheels. They can spin much more freely, so if you over-brake, and start to skid, you can let off the brakes and increase the odds of regaining traction.
However, if you're in a front-wheel drive vehicle (like my car) and you start to fish-tail, you actually want to accelerate. The point is to speed up the front end, and keep it in front of the back end.
It's all basic physics, but most people never connect what they learned in school to reality, even after they've wrecked.
That is not engine braking; it is merely disconnecting nearly-constant engine drag from the wheels. They can spin much more freely, so if you over-brake, and start to skid, you can let off the brakes and increase the odds of regaining traction.
However, if you're in a front-wheel drive vehicle (like my car) and you start to fish-tail, you actually want to accelerate. The point is to speed up the front end, and keep it in front of the back end.
It's all basic physics, but most people never connect what they learned in school to reality, even after they've wrecked.
Somewhat related, I found this on Piers Anthony, author of the Xanth series of books' web site. He's been writing these novels on Linux since about 2002.
Quoting:And the computer. T M and Michelle Chandrasekhar very nicely sent me disks with Ubuntu and Kubuntu 9.10, and I installed Kubuntu. Sigh. This is supposed to be one of the sharpest distributions of the Linux operating system, but it turned out to be a monster. It wiped out my modem connection; I can no longer go online. Oh, there are instructions for how to get back online. They begin by telling me to go online and download the program I need to do it. I kid you not; it's Catch 22. Apparently no one at Ubuntu ever actually tried to do it via dial-up on a new machine. Then I could not get my keyboard. I use the original Dvorak, but the computer folk randomly moved the punctuation around so that for example my “don't” comes out “don;t.” So I substitute my keyboard variant and use that. What we do is put it in place of the Denmark keyboard, because that abbreviates Dk, which then stands for Dvorak. But Kubuntu has hidden the keyboard files somewhere inaccessible to we can't access them, and I am stuck using the wrong punctuation, then painstakingly correcting it “by hand,” as I did when editing this column. Obviously I won't be typing a novel that way. Kubuntu also has no games. They surely existed, but again, there is no way to access them. I like to play the card game “Grandfather” to unwind. Now I can't unwind, as perhaps the ire of this paragraph shows. I have several macros I like to set up and use, such as for Date, Time, and the degree symbol. But when I try to assign a macro to a key, such as control D for Date, Kubuntu intercepts with a message that I need Java to do that, then locks up my system including the keyboard, which I have to crash and reset to get out of. Again, my patience with this sort of thing is limited. Nobody in Kubuntu has tried to post a macro? A prior edition of Kubuntu I used several years back did not have that problem: why does it suddenly need Java, and why won't it wait for me to try to get it? And I normally back up my material several times a day, because when I didn't, my system crashed and cost me irreplaceable material. But Kubuntu stopped letting me backup to my disk, claiming it was read-only. So I went to another disk and it worked several times, then locked up similarly. I had to go to a third disk. Then another day it started allowing me to use the first disk, a few times, before it locked up again. But you can see how I am loath to use a program that picks and chooses when it will let me back up. There are lesser nuisances, such as its occasional refusal to let me copy in a file to a particular directory, and its refusal to hold my defaults in the file handler Konqueror, and a very slow Open File facility in OpenOffice that I timed at two minutes and six seconds to open just one file. There are features I like, and I think it could be a nice system. But as it stands, it's a nest of scorpions, not at all suitable for serious use by a non-geek. Yes, we bought huge Ubuntu manuals; no, they didn't help. I expect to try Ubuntu next, to see if it has similar problems: if it does, I'll have to return to my years-old Xandros, which at least does work, if creakily. Meanwhile I had to do the Survey update on my wife's Windows computer. I believe I have remarked before on the folly of Open Source driving serious users back to Microsoft. I suspect I have fans at Microsoft who are seriously entertained observing my efforts to flee their corral.- http://www.hipiers.com/newsletter.html
> if you're in a front-wheel drive vehicle (like my car) and you start to fish-tail, you actually want to accelerate.
I should note that I've discovered the hard way that this is correct. :( That was several years ago, and I'll hopefully handle it better if it ever happens again.
I should note that I've discovered the hard way that this is correct. :( That was several years ago, and I'll hopefully handle it better if it ever happens again.
Oh darn, past the KDE4-bashing stage and into the weather. I'm too late.
...
Naa, I'll do it anyway. :^)
I've had one single "problem" remaining with KDE3 (Debian Lenny) while KDE4 has its time to mellow in the cask, as it were. The "new" design of FreeTalkLive.com has mouse-over pull-down menues that are obviously using some esoteric spacing system since my fonts are set rather large. Basically, the text doesn't fit inside their yellow graphical background pop-ups. It makes the secondary mouse-over pop-ups fail.
It's "new" HTML code, of whatever "new" "standards" have come up since Konqueror 3.5.9 was released. Firefox/Iceweasel doesn't have the problem, neither does Konq in KDE4 (so I'm told).
That's it. Not much of a loss, really. The web weenie who said "it ain't broken" blamed the problem on my "ancient, stale code".
I figure when Squeeze goes stable I might do the upgrade. That may be enough time. Or I'll just wait until I have a reason to make the change, since everything "seems" to be working well enough at this point. It would be nice if Audacious worked again, I dunno why that stopped working, but one day it just refused to play anything and all the reinstalling didn't make it work again. Funny. XINE suffices.
The Linux kernel developers seem to "get it" where users are concerned. What I mean is, the internal APIs and stacks and mechanisms and such change radically and constantly. Yet binaries compiled 10 years ago still run, because the outside interface is like a hard shell.
If KDE4's radically changed underpinnings were implemented, and applications changed over to them as they became ready, I don't think the transition would have been such a problem. As mentioned above, 4.0 was ALPHA code, and aught to have been treated as such. Changes to libraries happen all the time, with multiple versions existing side by side, this is not an unknown or unexplored region of development. Or maybe I'm spoiled after using Debian Sid for so many years.
Even if that is exactly what did happen, and I could have used KDE3 applications after KDE4 was installed, I couldn't tell because the KDE4 switch was presented as all-or-nothing-and-be-happy-about-it. My dislike of the new menu style was sufficient to annoy people in ways I haven't seen outside of religious arguments. Stuff like K3B which I use constantly didn't even exist in 4-land at the start, jumping to 4 would have been a huge step backwards.
I remember mentioning that I would use XFCE at the time if KDE4 were required, I was accused of pushing "your preferred desktop". Huh? I thought I preferred KDE3. Dino said that is exactly what he did earlier in this thread, and no one even batted an eye. Good! I'm very pleased to see people have gotten over the evangelism and moved on to finding out what works.
I've recommended Mac and Windows to people for whom those systems would make better tools. Linux is just the default, and it works for the huge majority of people who just need the default regardless of whether it's Linux, Mac or Win.
You know, Users.
I'm not a developer, I'm a network geek. My work involves finding pieces that work together to meet specific needs and goals, not building the pieces. I can't use what doesn't work.
If I had a choice, I'd be driving with a standard transmission, too. No snow here, just a little ice in the shadows. The entire rest of the country seems to be having fun this year, the "southern coastal plain" has the heating bills without all that fun. Bummer. My kid was really looking forward to even just a little snow.
This sun makes me long for the money to build a decent solar house, though. Wow! What a difference from living further north. I can go out below freezing in a black t-shirt and feel warm, just from the radiant energy of the sun. Can't say that about Massachusetts.
...
Naa, I'll do it anyway. :^)
I've had one single "problem" remaining with KDE3 (Debian Lenny) while KDE4 has its time to mellow in the cask, as it were. The "new" design of FreeTalkLive.com has mouse-over pull-down menues that are obviously using some esoteric spacing system since my fonts are set rather large. Basically, the text doesn't fit inside their yellow graphical background pop-ups. It makes the secondary mouse-over pop-ups fail.
It's "new" HTML code, of whatever "new" "standards" have come up since Konqueror 3.5.9 was released. Firefox/Iceweasel doesn't have the problem, neither does Konq in KDE4 (so I'm told).
That's it. Not much of a loss, really. The web weenie who said "it ain't broken" blamed the problem on my "ancient, stale code".
I figure when Squeeze goes stable I might do the upgrade. That may be enough time. Or I'll just wait until I have a reason to make the change, since everything "seems" to be working well enough at this point. It would be nice if Audacious worked again, I dunno why that stopped working, but one day it just refused to play anything and all the reinstalling didn't make it work again. Funny. XINE suffices.
The Linux kernel developers seem to "get it" where users are concerned. What I mean is, the internal APIs and stacks and mechanisms and such change radically and constantly. Yet binaries compiled 10 years ago still run, because the outside interface is like a hard shell.
If KDE4's radically changed underpinnings were implemented, and applications changed over to them as they became ready, I don't think the transition would have been such a problem. As mentioned above, 4.0 was ALPHA code, and aught to have been treated as such. Changes to libraries happen all the time, with multiple versions existing side by side, this is not an unknown or unexplored region of development. Or maybe I'm spoiled after using Debian Sid for so many years.
Even if that is exactly what did happen, and I could have used KDE3 applications after KDE4 was installed, I couldn't tell because the KDE4 switch was presented as all-or-nothing-and-be-happy-about-it. My dislike of the new menu style was sufficient to annoy people in ways I haven't seen outside of religious arguments. Stuff like K3B which I use constantly didn't even exist in 4-land at the start, jumping to 4 would have been a huge step backwards.
I remember mentioning that I would use XFCE at the time if KDE4 were required, I was accused of pushing "your preferred desktop". Huh? I thought I preferred KDE3. Dino said that is exactly what he did earlier in this thread, and no one even batted an eye. Good! I'm very pleased to see people have gotten over the evangelism and moved on to finding out what works.
I've recommended Mac and Windows to people for whom those systems would make better tools. Linux is just the default, and it works for the huge majority of people who just need the default regardless of whether it's Linux, Mac or Win.
You know, Users.
I'm not a developer, I'm a network geek. My work involves finding pieces that work together to meet specific needs and goals, not building the pieces. I can't use what doesn't work.
If I had a choice, I'd be driving with a standard transmission, too. No snow here, just a little ice in the shadows. The entire rest of the country seems to be having fun this year, the "southern coastal plain" has the heating bills without all that fun. Bummer. My kid was really looking forward to even just a little snow.
This sun makes me long for the money to build a decent solar house, though. Wow! What a difference from living further north. I can go out below freezing in a black t-shirt and feel warm, just from the radiant energy of the sun. Can't say that about Massachusetts.
This is becoming a mess, but nah, I'll do it anyway:
jacog, I surely agree just 'configuring' a keyboard is one of the greatest messes in whole Linux. I have been looking into this issue as of lately, and the results are truly astonishing. I'd say keyboard in Linux is FUBAR.
For example, there's the kernel keymap which maps scancodes to keycodes for the console, but it's totally separated from Xorg. So even when your keyboard works fine in the console, it's probable that it doesn't work in X.
X has Xevents I believe. I use xkeycaps to do the mappings. The xkeycaps developer explains somewhere how all this things work, and after most readers went insane, he tells us "Looks unnecessary complex to you? Well, that's because it is!". Also, in the part about 'scancodes' being the same to the 'keycodes' but only when their number is below 1024 or so, some writer wrote: "You may ask why. Basically because Linus decided so".
For example, Alt can have modifiers, Shift can't, and more nonsense like that. I have been struggeling 20 minutes per month for 10 consecutive months (after 20 minutes I give up, after a month I think: This _HAS_ to work!) to make my euro sign work. But now I have a different keyboard, and like you guessed: It stopped working. Also, it took me 6 consecutive months about 20 minutes per month to make deadkeys work again.
After xkeycaps - a program made in the 90's, nothing new appeared to re-map single keys.
And then there's also termcap, once I tried to look into it but I became nauseous and had to stop to grab some wodka just to calm down.
All this is needlessly complicated because of backwards compatibility. Because of several decades of incompatible 'proprietary standard' keyboards, we suffer nowadays.
Nowadays I have a very rare keyboard. 'scancode' (which doesn't work in X) can only map two 'signals' (one escape sequence + one signal) to a keycode. However, my keyboard is so 'rare' it sends four signals at once. Linux can't handle such 'rare' behaviour by design, it seems. When I hit those keys in Linux, four actions at the same time are performed by Linux / Xorg / WMaker: Skip to another window, kill one, and hit tab or something like that.
Then I start Windows in VirtualBox, in Linux. And it just freakin' works!
So what will it take for Linux / OS to dethrone Microsoft? Well, maybe start by breaking down the pile of cr@p called 'four decades of backwards compatibility for medieval keyboards nobody uses' for _any_ desktop UNIX.
Bob: The snow this year on the whole northern hemisphere (including the beaches in Spain!) is caused by a 'lack of solar activity' which occurs every 11 years. So if your kid want to seem some real snow, you should leave now heading north (or heck, maybe head east to Spain) or wait until your kid might not be a kid anymore. Or just go to Dubai, there's always snow in Dubai.
jacog, I surely agree just 'configuring' a keyboard is one of the greatest messes in whole Linux. I have been looking into this issue as of lately, and the results are truly astonishing. I'd say keyboard in Linux is FUBAR.
For example, there's the kernel keymap which maps scancodes to keycodes for the console, but it's totally separated from Xorg. So even when your keyboard works fine in the console, it's probable that it doesn't work in X.
X has Xevents I believe. I use xkeycaps to do the mappings. The xkeycaps developer explains somewhere how all this things work, and after most readers went insane, he tells us "Looks unnecessary complex to you? Well, that's because it is!". Also, in the part about 'scancodes' being the same to the 'keycodes' but only when their number is below 1024 or so, some writer wrote: "You may ask why. Basically because Linus decided so".
For example, Alt can have modifiers, Shift can't, and more nonsense like that. I have been struggeling 20 minutes per month for 10 consecutive months (after 20 minutes I give up, after a month I think: This _HAS_ to work!) to make my euro sign work. But now I have a different keyboard, and like you guessed: It stopped working. Also, it took me 6 consecutive months about 20 minutes per month to make deadkeys work again.
After xkeycaps - a program made in the 90's, nothing new appeared to re-map single keys.
And then there's also termcap, once I tried to look into it but I became nauseous and had to stop to grab some wodka just to calm down.
All this is needlessly complicated because of backwards compatibility. Because of several decades of incompatible 'proprietary standard' keyboards, we suffer nowadays.
Nowadays I have a very rare keyboard. 'scancode' (which doesn't work in X) can only map two 'signals' (one escape sequence + one signal) to a keycode. However, my keyboard is so 'rare' it sends four signals at once. Linux can't handle such 'rare' behaviour by design, it seems. When I hit those keys in Linux, four actions at the same time are performed by Linux / Xorg / WMaker: Skip to another window, kill one, and hit tab or something like that.
Then I start Windows in VirtualBox, in Linux. And it just freakin' works!
So what will it take for Linux / OS to dethrone Microsoft? Well, maybe start by breaking down the pile of cr@p called 'four decades of backwards compatibility for medieval keyboards nobody uses' for _any_ desktop UNIX.
Bob: The snow this year on the whole northern hemisphere (including the beaches in Spain!) is caused by a 'lack of solar activity' which occurs every 11 years. So if your kid want to seem some real snow, you should leave now heading north (or heck, maybe head east to Spain) or wait until your kid might not be a kid anymore. Or just go to Dubai, there's always snow in Dubai.
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