Is There any Hope For Desktop Linux?
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Comments (36)
16 earlier comments in the full thread.
Quoting:You all realize that you are responding to a DarkDuck article?No, I didn't read DarkDuck's article. In fact, I've only ever read one DD article, and that was plenty for me.
I was responding to JaseP's first post in this thread.
@ Khamul,
I guess it depends on what type of hardware you produce for what OSes to support. If you produce desktop nerf missle launchers, then you probably won't suffer by having BSD geeks hit the road when asking for support. If you make hardware that's used in the server room, like telephony ATAs, ... different story. It's especially different if you use Linux in the embedded device you build. I can't tell you how many embedded devices that use Linux internally that I have seen that don't support Linux. That infuriates me.The French are particularly guilty of that (Archos and Parrot AR, the makers of the quadrocopter drones).
Don't assume I was saying that all FOSS projects have merit, worthy of support. Some are garbage. I was not using the word ANY like that. I was using in the sense that some deem any and all FOSS as immediately inferior. In my experience, once you find the right FOSS package, it's the complete opposite.
I guess it depends on what type of hardware you produce for what OSes to support. If you produce desktop nerf missle launchers, then you probably won't suffer by having BSD geeks hit the road when asking for support. If you make hardware that's used in the server room, like telephony ATAs, ... different story. It's especially different if you use Linux in the embedded device you build. I can't tell you how many embedded devices that use Linux internally that I have seen that don't support Linux. That infuriates me.The French are particularly guilty of that (Archos and Parrot AR, the makers of the quadrocopter drones).
Don't assume I was saying that all FOSS projects have merit, worthy of support. Some are garbage. I was not using the word ANY like that. I was using in the sense that some deem any and all FOSS as immediately inferior. In my experience, once you find the right FOSS package, it's the complete opposite.
@ComputerBob, Khamul, Koriel, smallboxadmin: this is not my article, by the way.
You are all too prejudiced and do not read carefully. That's the issue with many people, so I understand.
Ditto.
Ditto.
Don't look at me, I never said anything good or bad about DarkDuck articles, or about this article; I only said I hadn't read it.
@darkduck, apparently you're the one who does not read carefully -- I said that I hadn't read your article at all, and I didn't say anything bad about your articles. ;)
@Khamul, ComputerBob: that's exactly what I mean. What is the point to discuss the article without reading it? It's like judgement of blind person about Picasso.
@darkduck - As I already stated, I was not discussing your article - I was replying to JaseP's comment.
Apparently, you're as careful a reader as you are a writer.
Apparently, you're as careful a reader as you are a writer.
As @CB said, @DD my comment was in response to @notbob's comment, I haven't read the article as it is simply not relevant, I was discussing the comments made by others, the article is not even required you could have posted up porn for all i care but it doesn't matter as I was discussing Notbobs comment.
So explain to me who wasn't reading carefully? I for one know exactly who wasn't reading carefully as @CB has already noted.
So explain to me who wasn't reading carefully? I for one know exactly who wasn't reading carefully as @CB has already noted.
Could somebody diagram that please? I need pictures to follow all this. It's starting to sound like a 19th century Russian novel.
OK, so I actually read the article, and it's not written by Dark Duck. He's turned it over to someone else -- it's a reprint of an article by a web designer. That would be strike one right there.
Strike two: It makes the same tired and false assumptions that all the doom-and-gloom, desktop-is-dead articles that appear quarterly or so make. It also ignores the fact, as many of the same writers do, that there's been an uptick in the use of the Linux desktop, from 0.97 percent in July 2011 to 1.40-something (1.43 maybe?) in Jaunary 2012. Not numbers to go gaga over, but it =IS= an increase.
Strike three: Market share is always a false barometer of the quality and success of desktop Linux. Porsche has about a 5 percent market share in auto sales, but you're not going to find CEO Matthias Muller losing any sleep over the fact he doesn't have the other 95 percent of the market share. Why? Because Porsche is a quality product that's aimed at certain "users." On the whole, the product and company are a success, even though 95 percent of the world doesn't use it. Sound familiar?
Linux has it nailed on the server side, on supercomputers, and in mobile. Does it really need to be a market share leader in desktop?
Strike two: It makes the same tired and false assumptions that all the doom-and-gloom, desktop-is-dead articles that appear quarterly or so make. It also ignores the fact, as many of the same writers do, that there's been an uptick in the use of the Linux desktop, from 0.97 percent in July 2011 to 1.40-something (1.43 maybe?) in Jaunary 2012. Not numbers to go gaga over, but it =IS= an increase.
Strike three: Market share is always a false barometer of the quality and success of desktop Linux. Porsche has about a 5 percent market share in auto sales, but you're not going to find CEO Matthias Muller losing any sleep over the fact he doesn't have the other 95 percent of the market share. Why? Because Porsche is a quality product that's aimed at certain "users." On the whole, the product and company are a success, even though 95 percent of the world doesn't use it. Sound familiar?
Linux has it nailed on the server side, on supercomputers, and in mobile. Does it really need to be a market share leader in desktop?
We're not discussing the article, we're having a completely tangential discussion. Reading the article is not necessary.
@Icafiero: It doesn't need to be a market share leader on the desktop, but it needs to have something that's viewed as significant, or else it gets zero support from hardware manufacturers. Ask the BSD fans how it feels to not be able to use all kinds of different hardware that we Linux users take for granted. I can plug in many wacky kinds of USB devices to my Linux box and they "just work". I can buy just about any motherboard or laptop and things mostly "just work". I don't have to worry much about some southbridge or audio chip not working. I'm pretty sure the BSD fans don't have that luxury. The only reason we have this is because we have sufficient marketshare and mindshare to accomplish this. Many drivers aren't even made by the manufacturers, they're made by volunteers, but those volunteers are part of that marketshare; zero marketshare means zero volunteers, as the BSD fans have found out the hard way. But many times the volunteers are able to get specs from the mfgrs, and the marketshare stats help convince them to release this information. The higher Linux marketshare is, the better support we'll get. Sure, Linux is doing great in servers, but that doesn't help me much if I'm trying to run it on desktop hardware, which is very different and much more diverse than server hardware (you don't use USB dongles on servers, nor do you use laptops as servers). Linux doesn't need to be the market leader by any stretch, it just needs enough marketshare to not be casually ignored. A mere 10% would be more than enough, and an uncontested 5% would be good.
The Porsche analogy is highly flawed, since Porsche doesn't give their products away for free (they cost a LOT), and doesn't rely on free support from suppliers (they pay for their suppliers to support them, using the money they get from their high product prices).
The Porsche analogy is highly flawed, since Porsche doesn't give their products away for free (they cost a LOT), and doesn't rely on free support from suppliers (they pay for their suppliers to support them, using the money they get from their high product prices).
Everyone form a search team we have lost @gus3 :)
Quoting:Everyone form a search team we have lost @gus3 :)I think he mentioned something about going to 19th century Russia.
@ Khamul,
Red Hat doesn't give their product away for free either... The difference is that their product is support, not the OS... And Red Hat's a billion $ company ... Hmmmmmmm....
Red Hat doesn't give their product away for free either... The difference is that their product is support, not the OS... And Red Hat's a billion $ company ... Hmmmmmmm....
Actually, Khamul, if you're talking about market share, the Porsche analogy is perfect. You might want to keep an eye on what's being discussed -- market share -- and not whether it's free.
and just to muddy the waters a bit more....the mention of the Frenchman who wrote 160 vid drivers. I believe it was roughly that number of webcam drivers he wrote. 3 AM and I am finally going to bed so I didn't Google it but yes, I believe it was webcam drivers, not video drivers.
But he was a rare Frenchman,... Most French OSS guys will install it on some embedded device, deny for a time that it's Linux, and then finally not release enough info to hack the device (or lock it up with some Tivo-ization deal-e-o),... But of course, I'm just bitter towards Archos & the Parrot AR Drone people. Ce La Vie!
JaseP
> But of course, I'm just bitter towards Archos & the Parrot AR Drone people.
What!? Why!? What's the story, Jas? I was gonna buy a Parrot AR Drone, this Summer. Sure, they're iFoo centric, but I expect Linux hacks by time I can afford one.
nb
> But of course, I'm just bitter towards Archos & the Parrot AR Drone people.
What!? Why!? What's the story, Jas? I was gonna buy a Parrot AR Drone, this Summer. Sure, they're iFoo centric, but I expect Linux hacks by time I can afford one.
nb
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If you're a programmer using an obscure OS, you're either going to wait for that company to give you the documentation you need, or you're going to reverse-engineer a driver on another system. The second route is very tedious and time-consuming, and isn't used that much. You sound like someone who isn't a programmer or engineer at all.
Yes, Linux had better compatibility than W7, largely because it supports a lot of older hardware that W7 doesn't. But also because it has lots of people working on it (== marketshare). Contrast that to OpenBSD; it has terrible hardware support. Where's the hordes of volunteers writing drivers for OpenBSD? It's simple: OpenBSD has much lower marketshare than Linux. Lower marketshare = fewer users = fewer people willing to develop drivers.
BTW, system administrators generally don't have CompSci degrees. And yes, they do teach Windows at many Universities. Frequently, they teach Java on Windows.
You don't need to register as a Linux user to be counted in web stats, you just have to visit a website with your browser running on Linux, and not change the user-agent string. That's why everyone looks at web stats for this information these days, because obviously sales numbers are bogus.
@smallboxadmin: Who cares? As long as it generates good conversation, the initial article really doesn't matter. And like Koriel, I didn't read the article either.
@JaseP: I'm not sure what the exact definition of "marketshare" is, but it seems to me that what's more important is how many unique Linux users there are, not how many unique Linux computers there are, although I guess if you're looking at it from a HW maker's POV, they might care more about the number of computers since someone who buys more hardware is worth more to them than someone who buys less HW (though of course this might very well depend on the exact type of hardware.
However, I have to disagree that any FOSS is worthy of support. Companies have limited resources, some more than others. Not all of them are giant behemoths like Intel and MS. I work for a hardware company that has all of about 35 people. If someone wanted us to write a driver for them to run our hardware on, say, FreeBSD, we'd have to tell them no, because we don't have the resources to put together a new team to write a driver for a single customer that won't be buying very many units. Saying companies should spend far more on support than they're going to get back in sales is just inane. That's why marketshare is important: if we can show that there really are a certain number of Linux users out there, HW companies will see that they need to support it to improve sales. After all, telling 1 in 20 of your potential customers to take a hike isn't a good idea. But if they think that it only has the marketshare of Minix, they're not going to bother.