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Mark Shuttleworth speaks with The 451 Group on Dapper and Ubuntu ...
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Comments (30)
10 earlier comments in the full thread.
Why crab at Ubuntu for having a good PR machine? It's not Canonical's fault that the other distro maintainers don't follow suit.
Quoting:Had you just given them a fresh install with no help and told them to wing it they'd have difficulty.
We hear this a lot but the same would be true if you gave them a fresh Windows install and told them to wing it.
Perhaps the distro that works perfectly for the newbie right out of the box ought to get to work getting their name out there. I certainly haven't heard that name yet.
It's quite depressing the way people will put up with virii, trojans, porn dialers, crashes, version incompatibilities in files and yet when Linux doesn't work perfectly with everything it's "this bloody Open Source software you put on my pc".
They want the savings that Linux brings and the benefits that Linux brings but don't want to learn how to use it, endlessly compare everything to Windows (which apparently "just worked" and never caused them any problems at all) and complain bitterly at every hurdle.
You explain all about the lock in philosophy and they don't listen, you explain about the EULA and they look blankly at you. They ask questions about functionality and then contradict everything you tell them. And continue to moan.
Some people don't deserve Linux. Whether it's all singing all dancing or not.
You explain all about the lock in philosophy and they don't listen, you explain about the EULA and they look blankly at you. They ask questions about functionality and then contradict everything you tell them. And continue to moan.
Some people don't deserve Linux. Whether it's all singing all dancing or not.
To my friends:
I think everyone who really wants to see Linux succeed owes it to themselves to read a book called "Blue Ocean Strategies."
We're not really its target market, but the book has a lot of interesting insights on what makes people (and companies) try something new.
I think everyone who really wants to see Linux succeed owes it to themselves to read a book called "Blue Ocean Strategies."
We're not really its target market, but the book has a lot of interesting insights on what makes people (and companies) try something new.
*urgh*
Books make head hurt. When movie come out?
Books make head hurt. When movie come out?
SFN -
The minute Tom Hanks cuts his hair.
The minute Tom Hanks cuts his hair.
Them damn hippies always gum up the works.
Quoting:We hear this a lot but the same would be true if you gave them a fresh Windows install and told them to wing it.
Yes, but they could double click their way through it. That's the idea IMHO...easy as pie. The way it is currently, to get Ubuntu up to where it needs to be, you'll be dropping to a shell at least once. At work, I answer helpdesk calls when our helpdesk technician is remote. I can tell you that people are 1000% apprehensive about dropping to the windows command line...they're not going to be ready to drop to a shell to edit a file. They're not going to understand the intricacies of sudo. I know there is a learning curve for everything, but the curve for Ubuntu is steeper than other distros. I go with the ones where I make the user climb a hill instead of a mountain.
Some people don't deserve Linux. Whether it's all singing all dancing or not.
Agreed. They don't deserve it many times...yet they use it. I am many times alone when I try and point Linux in the direction that many developers don't want it to go...and that is the direction of catering to these same undeserving people. I have OSX to thank for this. I saw what an operating system could be and thought to myself.."what if Mac didn't care about how their operating system was for the user experience." I realized that if they didn't care they wouldn't have the best OS experience out there nor would they have success in many areas. I think Linux should focus on this aspect as well...but many people just think I'm beating up on Ubuntu when they see my posts on the subject. I'm not, Ubuntu is a great distro. I just think it needs to do more and when I pit it against my favorites it falls short.
What? Devnet appear to be beating up on Ubuntu?
Get awaaaay.
"OSX... I saw what an operating system could be".
ROFL I'd give up on computers for ever if everything was like OSX. One mans meat is an other mans poison.
"OSX... I saw what an operating system could be".
ROFL I'd give up on computers for ever if everything was like OSX. One mans meat is an other mans poison.
devnet says: >Yes, but they could double click their way through it. That's the idea IMHO...easy as pie.
I don't know about that. From what I've heard, Windows is not all that easy to install from scratch -- double click or command line. There are problems with drivers. The only thing that makes Windows at all attractive is that it comes preinstalled for the most part. O/W I'll vote Gnu/linux any day for ease of installation.
Don K. (Who's had to help friends recover from XP -- One of whom is willing to consider dual booting Gnu/linux now.)
I don't know about that. From what I've heard, Windows is not all that easy to install from scratch -- double click or command line. There are problems with drivers. The only thing that makes Windows at all attractive is that it comes preinstalled for the most part. O/W I'll vote Gnu/linux any day for ease of installation.
Don K. (Who's had to help friends recover from XP -- One of whom is willing to consider dual booting Gnu/linux now.)
Quoting:Yes, but they could double click their way through it.
That doesn't make it any easier for most people. Remember, we are talking about people who
- insist that having to remember passwords that they make up is too diificult - can't remember their own email addresses - even when it's their own name - require assistance every Monday morning for tasks that they've been performing multiple times every day for years - (and this is the big one) don't understand the differences between click, right-click and double-click
So these people are going to be able to bring their operating systems up to speed because they can double-click their way through it?
Quoting:Windows is not all that easy to install from scratchWe're not discussing installation. We're discussing operation.
Quoting:ROFL I'd give up on computers for ever if everything was like OSX. One mans meat is an other mans poison.From any perspective (if a person takes an honest, unbiased look at operating systems), OSX is one of the best operating systems on the planet period. Security, design, experience...all of these rate high whether you like the operating system or not. I'm not touting opinions here...you can get started with OSX and become productive way faster than in any OS.
Quoting:So these people are going to be able to bring their operating systems up to speed because they can double-click their way through it?Yes. And they do. Believe me...giving someone who has to call helpdesk to reset their password because they don't understand password requirements and calls the helpdesk because they can't use clipart (that's right, they called the helpdesk on how to insert clipart) in office still found a way to get codecs installed and watch videos that their pals sent them in outlook.
The bottom line is...media matters to people. They want to be able to see and hear the web aka experience it. Because without this experience, the web becomes a 2d realm. Linux can embrace this by listening to users regardless of their experience using Linux (newbs have valid opinions on experience...more so than a person who has been using Linux for years) and making an operating system in kind. When a newb who has never seen a Linux desktop uses Ubuntu and can install all the things they need to watch movies, listen to music, and surf the web without dropping to a shell or having to visit anyplace online to 'research' things (think offline installs), then I'll agree that Ubuntu is the bestest in the whole Linux world. Until then I have to say that there are other distros out there that are farther along this road than Ubuntu and they'd be better equipped to represent Linux in the big picture.
> From any perspective (if a person takes an honest, unbiased look at operating systems), OSX is one of the best operating systems on the planet period.
Well, that is one man's opinion...
Well, that is one man's opinion...
jimf:
It's certainly not my opinion. I've had my fill of systems that leave me at the mercy of a vendor's whims and marketing agendas. I will never crawl back into such a cage again.
It's certainly not my opinion. I've had my fill of systems that leave me at the mercy of a vendor's whims and marketing agendas. I will never crawl back into such a cage again.
I don't agree OS X is the best OS on the planet exactly for reasons grouch implied above. If anything, the best OS on the planet is the GNU/Linux distribution of your choice as with it you get freedom, power and increasingly convenience as well.
Also I don't see Ubuntu as being that hard to get around and learn. It certainly isn't any harder than Windows if you ask me. So sure, maybe you'll have to set everything up for some users, but then, those users never installed and set up Windows anyway. I think Ubuntu makes it very easy for us to set everything up for them as it already did most of the job right.
If you want to shield them from the command line and sudo, sure.. just determine what they want to use this computer for and make sure that all applications they want work without asking for passwords or requiring command line...
Man, I just don't see it as such a big deal. I think Ubuntu deserves to be where it is. I don't think that if it was PCLinuxOS, Mandriva, SuSE or any other distro that it would deserve it any more than Ubuntu does.
So why not just be happy that one distro rose up and is actively (and succesfuly I believe) attacking and eating up the Windows market share (thanks to free shipping and well.. hype!). Ubuntu is out there on the front now; on the borders between Windows and GNU/Linux territory. It is fighting the GNU/Linux battle. I think we should support it.
Thanks
Also I don't see Ubuntu as being that hard to get around and learn. It certainly isn't any harder than Windows if you ask me. So sure, maybe you'll have to set everything up for some users, but then, those users never installed and set up Windows anyway. I think Ubuntu makes it very easy for us to set everything up for them as it already did most of the job right.
If you want to shield them from the command line and sudo, sure.. just determine what they want to use this computer for and make sure that all applications they want work without asking for passwords or requiring command line...
Man, I just don't see it as such a big deal. I think Ubuntu deserves to be where it is. I don't think that if it was PCLinuxOS, Mandriva, SuSE or any other distro that it would deserve it any more than Ubuntu does.
So why not just be happy that one distro rose up and is actively (and succesfuly I believe) attacking and eating up the Windows market share (thanks to free shipping and well.. hype!). Ubuntu is out there on the front now; on the borders between Windows and GNU/Linux territory. It is fighting the GNU/Linux battle. I think we should support it.
Thanks
Quoting:So why not just be happy that one distro rose up and is actively (and successfuly I believe) attacking and eating up the Windows market share (thanks to free shipping and well.. hype!). Ubuntu is out there on the front now; on the borders between Windows and GNU/Linux territory. It is fighting the GNU/Linux battle. I think we should support it.
A good point well made.
> It's certainly not my opinion. I've had my fill of systems that leave me at the mercy of a vendor's whims and marketing agendas. I will never crawl back into such a cage again.
I agree grouch, but I also just don't like the OSX interface very well. Both visually and functionally, it's a big turn off for me. You know that I certainly don't abhor a GUI interface, and, I use a mouse as much as anyone. Still, there are days when I think that Bell Labs saddled us with the absolute worst possible interface device.
I agree grouch, but I also just don't like the OSX interface very well. Both visually and functionally, it's a big turn off for me. You know that I certainly don't abhor a GUI interface, and, I use a mouse as much as anyone. Still, there are days when I think that Bell Labs saddled us with the absolute worst possible interface device.
Quoting:someone who has to call helpdesk to reset their password because they don't understand password requirementsPeople don't have problems with passwords (or any other part of their job that involves a computer) because they don't understand the requirements. They have problems with these things because, for the most part, they don't want to do it. That's why you've seen them "get codecs installed and watch videos that their pals sent them in outlook". It's not any more difficult to do it in Ubuntu than it is in any OS. Save, of course, for the OS that installs those codecs for you without your knowledge or consent and, potentially, places you in hot legal water.
What I'm afraid of is that Ubuntu is becoming too much of a buzzword, and that people are going to get so sick of hearing about it that there will be backlash. No backlash from me-- I've been using it since it first got a name (anyone remember no-name-yet.com?) and I haven't looked back. I've used almost all of the major distributions since then, whenever they release a new one, but I keep coming back to Ubuntu. I used to be a die-hard Gentoo user, but Ubuntu does what I want, and it's customizable so things can be changed, so I couldn't be happier.
As far as codecs and everything goes, I think that the legality has to play a role. Most of the time it's illegal to install those codecs. Unless you use RealPlayer, it's illegal to listen to MP3's in Linux if you're in the US. Software patents, love them or hate them, really impede user adoption in Linux.
However I think this is changing. Sun is open sourcing Java, has recently open sourced Solaris, and Novell has opened SuSE up to the community even more. There's a definite trend toward more openness. Maybe soon, distributions like Ubuntu will be able to come preinstalled with all the codecs that anyone needs to play all those video and audio files. As it is now, it's not all that hard to install them. Enable a couple of repositories and install through synaptic. No command line needed. I prefer the command line, but I have set up things using only GUI, just to see if it could be done.
In response to SFN-- people don't understand the requirements, but that's BECAUSE they don't want to do it. So you're both right.
As far as codecs and everything goes, I think that the legality has to play a role. Most of the time it's illegal to install those codecs. Unless you use RealPlayer, it's illegal to listen to MP3's in Linux if you're in the US. Software patents, love them or hate them, really impede user adoption in Linux.
However I think this is changing. Sun is open sourcing Java, has recently open sourced Solaris, and Novell has opened SuSE up to the community even more. There's a definite trend toward more openness. Maybe soon, distributions like Ubuntu will be able to come preinstalled with all the codecs that anyone needs to play all those video and audio files. As it is now, it's not all that hard to install them. Enable a couple of repositories and install through synaptic. No command line needed. I prefer the command line, but I have set up things using only GUI, just to see if it could be done.
In response to SFN-- people don't understand the requirements, but that's BECAUSE they don't want to do it. So you're both right.
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But you set it up for them. Had you just given them a fresh install with no help and told them to wing it they'd have difficulty. It's a good thing they're not multimedia people because that's the fence I hit when trying to get Linux on users' computers. There's only a handful of distros out there that do multimedia from the start (Kanotix, MEPIS used to...not sure if it still does, PCLinuxOS). These are the distros that I'd use to get a user up and running with little to complain about. I have a hard enough time trying to get people to open up a command line in Windows XP...if you think I'm going to get them to go shell in Linux you got another thing coming. Sure, I could do it for them...but then they wouldn't learn anything and chances are I'd have to do it again in the future. I'm for providing permanent solutions to temporary problems.
Aprehension about computing is a HUGE thing now. It isn't about function; that is how much you can do or how much power the OS gives you. Now it is about experience. How does this OS make my computing experience? Most poeple will drop Linux faster than a grenade with the pin pulled if they hit a snag. I know I would...with the fast pace of life you don't have time to mess around. The common attitude fo 90% of IT professionals out there is that if it doesn't work right away, dump it. Most people have this attitude as well.
Take the ipod for example. Now think if the ipod didn't have the fantastic design it does...or the navigation. Think if all it did was do all media stuff it currently does...what good would that be? The design and experience factor in hugely into the ipod. Linux distros should focus on this as well. SuSe is beginning to do this with 10 and 10.1 but they're not there yet.
I do agree that there are worse choices than Ubuntu which is a good thing...Ubuntu isn't half bad for representing Linux. I am still firm in the fact that there are others out there that 'just work' and provide a better user experience...which in my experience means that they'll keep people using linux as a desktop continuously instead of providing them with a good Linux desktop until they want to play multimedia.
I guess attention to Linux in general is a good thing...even when it is all Canonical and Ubuntu based. I'm weary of the public adopting a "ubuntu is Linux and Linux is Ubuntu" only attitude...because they'd be dismissing many good distros out there that might be a better fit for them.