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Fedora Devs Say Goodbye To Eric Raymond

Posted by dcparris on · 30 comments
LXer - Editorial; By D.C. Parris (Charlotte, USA)
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LXer Feature: 23-Feb-2007

When Eric Raymond announced his departure on the Fedora Core developer mailing list, the developers returned with some interesting responses. Is Raymond really disappointed with the Fedora distribution, or is he simply making the change to Ubuntu for his new boss over at Linspire?

When Eric Raymond announced on the Fedora Core developer mailing list that he was switching to Ubuntu, he lodged several complaints about Fedora Core that, in view of the developer responses, seem fairly empty, and possibly even self-serving. In response, several developers not only answered Raymond's complaints, but also pointed out several contradictions and failures on his part. Several developers pointed out the relation between Raymond being hired by Linspire, and his switch to Ubuntu. For those still unaware, Linspire and Ubuntu are now working together - Linspire will be based on Ubuntu, and Ubuntu will use CNR.



While Eric complained about Fedora Core lacking non-libre multimedia capabilities out of the box, the developers replied that Fedora Core is (a) meant to include only libre software by default, and (b) is geared more toward server environments than desktops. Some pointed out that Fedora has also continued to work on the desktop as well, minus non-libre multimedia codecs, which can be easily downloaded from various repositories around the Internet. In fact, one developer pointed Raymond to a link demonstrating the Fedora project was, in fact, working on providing a solution to the codec problem without compromising the project's libre-oriented values.



One developer pointed out earlier comments from Raymond praising the project's efforts to resolve a number of issues, including resolving dependency issues and even praising YUM. Raymond had apparently sent a similar message about a year ago in which he threatened to leave Fedora for another distribution. He also, at some point, proclaimed that the package submission process had most of the kinks worked out, and that he was going to submit four or five packages himself. Another developer roundly criticized Raymond's failure to respond as agreed to comments on the submission process. In fact, Raymond's one submission was "struck" because the reviewer found issues that needed to be resolved.



Eric's complaints about the inability to perform a network installation with Fedora Core was also quickly shot down. He complained about governance problems, but wasn't specific enough for most developers to respond appropriately. Some developers requested more information about Raymond's first complaint, involving a dependency issue that apparently left his system unusable, and supposedly unrecoverable. At least one developer pointed out how he could have recovered.



One developer found Raymond's e-mail especially funny in light of a recent judgment order Microsoft to pay a little more than $1.5 million (USD) to Alcatel-Lucent for patents related to MP3. Another pointed out his reference to WMF, suggesting that there was already support for WMF in Fedora Core. Perhaps Raymond was thinking of the Windows video format? In short, the responses to Raymond's complaints are similar to what one finds whenever a new user announces that GNU/Linux or some distro just isn't ready for them yet. Perhaps Raymond was just too proud to ask for help on a mailing list. He is, after all, a rather experienced Red Hat/Fedora Core user, and a programmer at that.



The fact is, Raymond has never supported the idea of a purely libre software stack anyway. So the real issue seems to be that his views about software freedom conflict with those of the Fedora project. It truly would have been better for Raymond to simply bid adieu, since he needs to eat the new dogfood, and wish the Fedora Core community all the best. That's a nice idea, but it just doesn't generate publicity. The Fedora developers are not the only ones onto Raymond's game - a good many other people around the FOSS community have noted Raymond's recent adventures with Linspire, and the sure connection to his leaving the Fedora project.



In reality, this is not the kind of publicity that any distribution should want. It's akin to badmouthing your current boss while interviewing for a new job. No one will hire you since you're likely to talk about them, too. And what if Raymond ever finds himself needing a new home down the road? Who will actually want him among their ranks? Who will want to risk his obvious waffling and bad taste? No wonder the general consensus seems to be "don't let the door hit you..."



Note: Linspire CEO, Kevin Carmony, has posted a comment below clarifying that ESR does not work for Linspire, but rather serves as a volunteer, and that Linspire was unaware of Raymond's actions until they read about it in the news, like the rest of us.

References

Goodbye, Fedora Thread

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Comments (30)

Linspire CEO Kevin Carmony Responds

7 earlier comments in the full thread.

Eric Raymond is definitely principled. He follows his principle of doing whatever it takes to get himself in the spotlight. (Recall his famous claim to be Microsoft's worst nightmare?)

I feel sorry for the Linspire/Freespire community, because this will almost certainly not be his last outburst. And when there is any area of disagreement, he will be voicing his criticisms in news outlets, not in private emails.

I believe everything in the Kevin Carmony post. I also agree with tuxchick that few people take this sort of thing seriously.
Kevin,

Quoting:he's a pretty principled guy


I think you might want to re-examine that one...he threw his FLOSS principle's right out the window not too long ago...and these principles he threw out are the reason he's leaving Fedora. It all boils down to him wanting Fedora to include non-free items into their distro. So he used this as an opportunity to cut Fedora down for what he saw as a shortcoming.

The funny part is that it isn't a shortcoming. If he were a principles first type of guy, he'd admire Fedora for them taking a stand but part ways just the same and we'd have a different letter...one that might state, "Well Fedora, thanks for the memories, but since I've changed I cannot follow your path anymore. Please don't take this as criticism but I need to have things 'just work' proprietary or not" and he would have done this without submitting it to all the Linux news agencies.

By taking the action he did, he made himself look bad, less credible, and he drew conclusion directly with Ubuntu and indirectly with Linspire. It doesn't matter that you don't pay him or not...he's affiliated directly/indirectly and this means that whatever he says, does, or chooses to do will reflect...for good or bad...on what he's involved with or what he's speaking about.

I respect greatly that you clarified your position...but doing so here in this forum will hit about 30% of the audience ESR hit with his public letter. My personal principles wouldn't let me stand for that. But hey, that's just me. Once again, thanks for your clarification.
Quoting:I respect greatly that you clarified your position...but doing so here in this forum will hit about 30% of the audience ESR hit with his public letter.


I take slight umbrage to that statement, I think that by posting here at LXer he has made sure that the people who have more than a passing interest in Open Source will read his explanation. Agree or not agree with him, we will at least take him seriously.

Scott

Scott:

I agree with your point (but I'm surprised he would view these forums as sufficiently influential to post here). It would be better if this were an LXer feature, though, rather than a post.
I'll act on this by tomorrow, if not this evening. That said, I think it speaks volumes for LXer's standing - we've surpassed some other popular websites (our Google page rank is higher than NewsForge, iirc) in terms of readership and other stats. ;-)
LXer is my home page!!! Since I don't drink coffee, LXer is how I start my mornings.
> it speaks volumes for LXer's standing

Absolutely. In addition to the news coverage being top notch, the quality of member comments and discussion is generally very high. Some very serious discussion and analysis unlike anything on the other sites. I know that's atracting a lot of attention.
Mr. Carmony

Thanks for taking the time to post this clarification.

I like your willingness to communicate directly with Linux users (not only Linspire's ones). Again, thanks.
@dcparris: LXer has a PR8 (of 10) and Newsforge had PR9 so it's not quite there yet, but PR8 is incredibly hard to achieve so that's quite good for a site that is so much younger than newsforge.

And of course, it's my first choice for GNU/Linux and Free Software related news.

As for what Carmony said, he's probably right. But as others already pointed out, as a public figure (at least something he desperately wants to remain) he has a bit of responsibility for what he says and he should have expected that people will make a link between his involvement with Linspire and his switch to Ubuntu.

But what he's doing really fits the bigger picture that he, along with Rob Landley, portrayed in that sensationally titled "World Domination 201" paper. All of what he's doing recently is part of that plan. And I've just submit an article that has something to say on that too. ;)

Cheers
Scott,

I didn't mean that Lxer has low influence...just that the Lxer forums aren't the place I'd expect something like this to get great exposure. Especially considering most people have RSS feeds of the headlines and not of the forums.

Lxer is my #1 place for Linux news and chat. It has been since it first started. It will continue to be so as well. I meant no disrespect whatsoever.
We were at #8 - not sure why we've slipped. :-(
Number 8? Well, look at this: [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=linux news&btnG=Google Search]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=linux news&btnG=Google ...[/url] :)

I guess it depends on the keyword.

As for ranks, they don't change so often. If you're PR8 you wont be slipping down to PR7 anytime soon, but chances are you'll rise to PR9, though much of it probably depends on google's latest algorithms as well I suppose.

Devnet: I knew you meant no harm, but I think LXer is the place to post such a response. Like Don, I think it says a lot about what people involved in Open Source think of LXer.

Just imagine if he had posted his comment to Slashdot? There would be no 'discussion' let alone an intelligent one.

Perhaps I was thinking of Linux Today that we had surpassed. This site has us still at #8: http://www.prchecker.info/check_page_rank.php

Scott, I think devnet was focused on Carmony's post in the forums, as opposed to the front page. Even so, Carmony's post shows up constantly in the active thread box, ensuring that anyone paying attention to the site will see it. However, those relying on RSS feeds won't see his comment without visiting the site. I'll post a short write-up in the morning to make sure Carmony's point reaches a wider audience. It's in Edit now. ;-)
I think pretty much everyone already attributed this to ESR and not Linspire / Canonical.
There was just some reaction to the effect that his switch to Ubuntu came about because of his affiliation with Linspire. Linspire just wants to make sure it's clear there's no formal connection. :-) Per Carmony above, it's not the kind of PR he's looking for.
> Per Carmony above, it's not the kind of PR he's looking for.

Unfortunately, with Eric, it's the kind of PR he's likely to get. :(
Well, he found that out, didn't he?
Yes, I can certainly see HOW things could have been construed this way, I just wanted to clear things up. I posted here and on some other threads that had brought up this misunderstanding. Most importantly, I emailed my response to my contacts at Red Hat. I also asked others to send around my comment to the mailing list.

I'd like to add that Linspire has a great relationship with Red Hat and Fedora. We HAVE been working with them on bringing our CNR technology to Fedora users (via an optional plugin). Red Hat and Fedora has been nothing but very good to work with us. The main reason you saw the Ubuntu deal before Fedora is simply supporting an RPM-based distribution, such as Fedora and openSUSE, will take us just a bit longer than the Debian-based Ubuntu, because historically CNR has been Debian centric with Linspire and Freespire.

Thanks,

Kevin Carmony CEO, Linspire
Bottom line: yesterday it turned out that even the founder of Debian uses Ubuntu Linux. And he didn't make noise about it. ESR needs to learn how to behave like a gentleman.

Alcatel-Microsoft case

The figure you mention as being awarded to Alcatel in the mp3 patent violation case is wrong. The jury awarded $US1.5 billion, not million.

Chully
Yep Chully, 1.5 billion is more than a pinch, even in today's currency. Bet that Don was just thinking in 1990 dollars :D
I definitely missed a letter, didn't I? I'm just glad I wasn't the one that lost that case. Even so, after it gets whittled down by the appeals court, it could wind up closer to the million mark. Assuming MS is appealing.

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