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Your Distro's Slow March Into Irrelevance
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Comments (47)
27 earlier comments in the full thread.
the Ubuntu server edition is a nice idea as well:
http://www.ubuntu.com/server
I know that setting up debian as a server is easy, but this gives you a LAMP stack right from the start.
I could see people using this to build some SOHO turnkey appliances off of. It would be nice for training as well.
Reminds me of the Debian consortium product, or Progeny.
I know that setting up debian as a server is easy, but this gives you a LAMP stack right from the start.
I could see people using this to build some SOHO turnkey appliances off of. It would be nice for training as well.
Reminds me of the Debian consortium product, or Progeny.
> Some people think that Windows users are unable to find their own rear with both hands :D
They might be right. I can't think of any other explanation for the existence of the Geek Squad.
> At least they dropped the binary video driver idea. And that's a good thing because it would have driven lots of experienced Linux people away.
They postponed that idea (rather than abandoning it), and as Mark Shuttleworth has made clear, it was only a matter that beryl is not yet ready. He has made it clear that if you use future versions of Ubuntu, you WILL be using proprietary drivers, and you WILL like it. He is so obsessed with the use of proprietary drivers that it wouldn't surprise me if Ubuntu included proprietary drivers for Intel graphics.
> the quality of the distribution has slipped
For me, the biggest problem is that a lot of the packages in the repositories are messed up. I have yet to encounter such a problem in Debian. I reported bugs eight months ago, yet the packages have not been either fixed or removed.
They might be right. I can't think of any other explanation for the existence of the Geek Squad.
> At least they dropped the binary video driver idea. And that's a good thing because it would have driven lots of experienced Linux people away.
They postponed that idea (rather than abandoning it), and as Mark Shuttleworth has made clear, it was only a matter that beryl is not yet ready. He has made it clear that if you use future versions of Ubuntu, you WILL be using proprietary drivers, and you WILL like it. He is so obsessed with the use of proprietary drivers that it wouldn't surprise me if Ubuntu included proprietary drivers for Intel graphics.
> the quality of the distribution has slipped
For me, the biggest problem is that a lot of the packages in the repositories are messed up. I have yet to encounter such a problem in Debian. I reported bugs eight months ago, yet the packages have not been either fixed or removed.
Quoting:He has made it clear that if you use future versions of Ubuntu, you WILL be using proprietary drivers, and you WILL like it.
And we WILL rile up again and he WILL have to take notice or else the only Unique Selling Point of Ubuntu (the community) comes crashing down. Ubuntu can fall just as fast as it has risen. Faster even.
> Ubuntu can fall just as fast as it has risen. Faster even.
Time will tell. I really don't know that he cares if he loses experienced users. The attitude seems to be that the only users that matter are Windows users.
Time will tell. I really don't know that he cares if he loses experienced users. The attitude seems to be that the only users that matter are Windows users.
> That's not a thought but a well-known fact.
@sander: I was being kind ;-)
> The attitude seems to be that the only users that matter are Windows users.
@bigg: That's the one that really worries me about Ubuntu and a few other Distros. What price do we pay to become top dog in the marketplace? It may be at the expense of current users.
@sander: I was being kind ;-)
> The attitude seems to be that the only users that matter are Windows users.
@bigg: That's the one that really worries me about Ubuntu and a few other Distros. What price do we pay to become top dog in the marketplace? It may be at the expense of current users.
yeah, but if only Windows switchers remain for Ubuntu then it's community will collapse and Ubuntu with it. Marc is playing a dangerous game if he's willing to go down that road. I'm probably still hoping he comes to his senses and acknowledges that the experienced Linux users, attracted by the Free as in freedom, are one of the big pillars of the community.
The problem with all of helios' writing is that he's so damn alarmist about everything.
I haven't mentioned or actually advocated actively pclinuxos for months. Catch up with your reading. You don't care for my use of the term Foss Purists...I do read other forums...that is what it comes down to isnt it. I choose to move away from a centralized advocacy and more toward pointing out the ones that are better than the others. Look...you have a chapped ass about my philisophy of Prop software and drivers. I think you may be the one who needs to get over it. Abby Hoffman politics and philosophies were fine for the Cheech and Chong crowd, but until we get our own,,,we gotta borrow from the huns. It's reality.
And alarmists are in demand these days. Many of you will not react to the croc until he owns your @$$. You are using your semantics as weapons, Bad choice...and besides...rile up all you want. Shuttleworth will do what he will do. Ubuntu is a great and brilliant community. It is a mediocre distro with a sugar daddy.
Now...THAT's to the point, Ya think?
h
And alarmists are in demand these days. Many of you will not react to the croc until he owns your @$$. You are using your semantics as weapons, Bad choice...and besides...rile up all you want. Shuttleworth will do what he will do. Ubuntu is a great and brilliant community. It is a mediocre distro with a sugar daddy.
Now...THAT's to the point, Ya think?
h
Woo woo, hold on for a minute, we haven't won yet to start the debate about who is going to or should be the leader. Have we forgotten who the enemy is?
The way I see it, we have three main distros and in alphabetical order, Mepis, PCLinuxOS & K/Ubuntu.
Red Hat is not interested in Desktop Linux, at least not for now, that is a big mistake on their part. They better get more involved otherwise they will be out.
OpenSuse is controlled by Novell and Novell chose its path to be/will be controlled by MS for the foreseeable future. That can't be good and is not acceptable.
Debian is doing the ground work, I see Ubuntu's desire to be independent some day. That I don't feel good about and could be dangerous in the future.
Mepis and K/Ubuntu are Debian based, PCLinuxOS is not, I like to see PLOS to be Debian based too.
K/Ubuntu has the financial resource, that is essential for the success of FOSS & Linux.
Mepis is a great distro, complete, user friendly and very innovative, but I do have an issue with Mepis, especially in regards to Warrens views towards the GPL. I don't think that is going to change. But you never know.
PCLOS is an excellent distro, solid & user friendly and on the right track, unfortunately has limited financial resource and deserves our support more than any. So far PCLOS is more technically advanced and better user friendly than Ubuntu.
All distros are building on the top of each other, that is what makes FOSS/Linux great and it is the primary reason why FOSS/Linux is advancing so quickly.
So you see, we need all three distros to maintain a healthy competition and pass beyond Windows.
Eventually, I think all of them will mature and become closer to each other and by that time, there will be room for all of them to coexist.
Keep in mind that this is only my opinion.
So, can we keep this debate for later on and avoid alienation! Let the natural process take its course.
The way I see it, we have three main distros and in alphabetical order, Mepis, PCLinuxOS & K/Ubuntu.
Red Hat is not interested in Desktop Linux, at least not for now, that is a big mistake on their part. They better get more involved otherwise they will be out.
OpenSuse is controlled by Novell and Novell chose its path to be/will be controlled by MS for the foreseeable future. That can't be good and is not acceptable.
Debian is doing the ground work, I see Ubuntu's desire to be independent some day. That I don't feel good about and could be dangerous in the future.
Mepis and K/Ubuntu are Debian based, PCLinuxOS is not, I like to see PLOS to be Debian based too.
K/Ubuntu has the financial resource, that is essential for the success of FOSS & Linux.
Mepis is a great distro, complete, user friendly and very innovative, but I do have an issue with Mepis, especially in regards to Warrens views towards the GPL. I don't think that is going to change. But you never know.
PCLOS is an excellent distro, solid & user friendly and on the right track, unfortunately has limited financial resource and deserves our support more than any. So far PCLOS is more technically advanced and better user friendly than Ubuntu.
All distros are building on the top of each other, that is what makes FOSS/Linux great and it is the primary reason why FOSS/Linux is advancing so quickly.
So you see, we need all three distros to maintain a healthy competition and pass beyond Windows.
Eventually, I think all of them will mature and become closer to each other and by that time, there will be room for all of them to coexist.
Keep in mind that this is only my opinion.
So, can we keep this debate for later on and avoid alienation! Let the natural process take its course.
> I like to see PLOS to be Debian based too.
yeah, me too, but probably too much to ask.
yeah, me too, but probably too much to ask.
Strike one! Helios failed me over this.
Dan...I'm not in this to gain anyone's particular approval. Would that be the case, I would have already drawn a warm bath, enjoyed a bottle of sweet, red wine then opened my veins. Leading the Tux500 effort has placed more undeserved and brutal lumps on my poor old bald head than I deserved....but that's the league I play in so it's more of an observation than it is a complaint. The supportive emails and comments are more than sufficent salve for any wounds inflicted.
I am truly sorry we have a disagreement, we've worked together for a long time but I'm going to ask you to do something I have only recently attempted myself. Put the politics aside and strive for the betterment of the community. You want open source drivers? Then help me with these ad campaigns...you and a vocal few seem to shoot them down no sooner than they are out of my mouth. More users mean more influence which means...man you know the drill, it's time to do something except talk and complain. Criticism without action is impotent. Having one distro suck all the oxygen out of the discussion isn't going to do a thing to spread the word of those better qualified to meet the user's needs. That's why the entire community needs to get exposure, not simply one distro...regardless of how good that distro is. Haven't we seen that already with Windows?
You do much for this community but as reaction to RMS has shown us, extreme political views evinced while advocating anything taints that product. I stated so above and will do so again. I have not been an active advocate of PCLinuxOS for months. In my 3 weekly Linux Labs, on the computers I build for Komputers4Kids and in my day to day exchanges, I rotate the distros I hand out, and those number anywhere from 5 to 150 a day, depending on my opportunities and geographical location.
I think Ubuntu gets way too much press for being something its not. That's all the article said and a quick google of the subject will prove out I am far from the only one that believes that. This community needs to advertise if we are to push back the enemy you and I publicly recognize. How many times do I have to praise the Ubuntu Community? Fine folks all as are the OpenSuse people...
Sometimes we cannot control the shenanigans that are taking place overhead...and neither can they.
h
Dan...I'm not in this to gain anyone's particular approval. Would that be the case, I would have already drawn a warm bath, enjoyed a bottle of sweet, red wine then opened my veins. Leading the Tux500 effort has placed more undeserved and brutal lumps on my poor old bald head than I deserved....but that's the league I play in so it's more of an observation than it is a complaint. The supportive emails and comments are more than sufficent salve for any wounds inflicted.
I am truly sorry we have a disagreement, we've worked together for a long time but I'm going to ask you to do something I have only recently attempted myself. Put the politics aside and strive for the betterment of the community. You want open source drivers? Then help me with these ad campaigns...you and a vocal few seem to shoot them down no sooner than they are out of my mouth. More users mean more influence which means...man you know the drill, it's time to do something except talk and complain. Criticism without action is impotent. Having one distro suck all the oxygen out of the discussion isn't going to do a thing to spread the word of those better qualified to meet the user's needs. That's why the entire community needs to get exposure, not simply one distro...regardless of how good that distro is. Haven't we seen that already with Windows?
You do much for this community but as reaction to RMS has shown us, extreme political views evinced while advocating anything taints that product. I stated so above and will do so again. I have not been an active advocate of PCLinuxOS for months. In my 3 weekly Linux Labs, on the computers I build for Komputers4Kids and in my day to day exchanges, I rotate the distros I hand out, and those number anywhere from 5 to 150 a day, depending on my opportunities and geographical location.
I think Ubuntu gets way too much press for being something its not. That's all the article said and a quick google of the subject will prove out I am far from the only one that believes that. This community needs to advertise if we are to push back the enemy you and I publicly recognize. How many times do I have to praise the Ubuntu Community? Fine folks all as are the OpenSuse people...
Sometimes we cannot control the shenanigans that are taking place overhead...and neither can they.
h
> like to see PLOS to be Debian based too.
Not me.
Somehow, the thought of the fractious mob behind Debian controlling all of Linux that ain't Red Hat or Novell doesn't appeal to me.
Let there be good Debian-based distros and let there be distros that are not.
Monopoly has no place in Linuxland.
Not me.
Somehow, the thought of the fractious mob behind Debian controlling all of Linux that ain't Red Hat or Novell doesn't appeal to me.
Let there be good Debian-based distros and let there be distros that are not.
Monopoly has no place in Linuxland.
> Somehow, the thought of the fractious mob behind Debian controlling all of Linux that ain't Red Hat or Novell doesn't appeal to me.
Well, there's always Slackware and Gentoo. Not that they don't have their own problems. And that leaves out Mandriva and the multitude of minor distributions out there. I don't think monopoly is a major concern just yet. Hmm, speaking of, is anyone doing an online Monopoly server? I know someone who might be interested. Time to do some research.
Well, there's always Slackware and Gentoo. Not that they don't have their own problems. And that leaves out Mandriva and the multitude of minor distributions out there. I don't think monopoly is a major concern just yet. Hmm, speaking of, is anyone doing an online Monopoly server? I know someone who might be interested. Time to do some research.
jdixon -
Wasn't there a kde project called kmonop? May have changed its name, but I think it was an online Monopoly (almost) server. I think a true Monopoly server requires some money to Parker Bros. for use of the trademark and trademarked symbols in the game.
Wasn't there a kde project called kmonop? May have changed its name, but I think it was an online Monopoly (almost) server. I think a true Monopoly server requires some money to Parker Bros. for use of the trademark and trademarked symbols in the game.
Quoting:Monopoly has no place in Linuxland.
I think Mark has in the back of his mind not to depend on some one else. I would be more concerned about Ubuntu's monopoly than Debian's. Then again, the GPL will not allow a monopoly.
The problem is, Linux users like to focus on disagreements instead of similarities. Distro-flamewars are almost the best example. Microsoft would laugh their @$$ of when reading this forum, since it are the Linux users doing their work at this moment; trying to 'divide the Linux community'. Uniting Linux users is Microsoft's worst nightmare, and they are really, really glad with people like ESR and RMS, since they are good at focusing at differences of view.
That's really a sad thing to see. RMS' point of view, or ESR's point of view, we are all here at LXer because we like to use Linux - for whatever reason, don't we? I know people say things which offends us from time to time; bit it's that worth all the hassle of putting up 'verbal' fights? Now, part of the plan of Microsoft to stop Linux is to break alliances. At this forum/thread, they don't even need to _help_, only watch, because we are doing it ourselves.
Please stop zooming in on dissimilarities, and think what are the things you agree on with _ALL_ posters above, There ought to be some things we _all_ agree on, not? Than try to forget the things we disagree on; we are on LXer and use Linux for different reasons, and try to focus on what gets us together. That goes for all of us, including myself and _everyone_ above. It's a different process, but it's worth it. Only after we know and are concious of what brings us together on LXer and other Linux-platforms, there is room for disagreements.
If you rather focus on what we disagree on, you are effectively breaking ad-hoc alliances. Since those ad-hoc alliances aren't managed and very loose, that's a very easy thing to do. If you like to break alliances, do so, but please ask Microsoft to pay you, because you are effectively doing _their_ job.
That's really a sad thing to see. RMS' point of view, or ESR's point of view, we are all here at LXer because we like to use Linux - for whatever reason, don't we? I know people say things which offends us from time to time; bit it's that worth all the hassle of putting up 'verbal' fights? Now, part of the plan of Microsoft to stop Linux is to break alliances. At this forum/thread, they don't even need to _help_, only watch, because we are doing it ourselves.
Please stop zooming in on dissimilarities, and think what are the things you agree on with _ALL_ posters above, There ought to be some things we _all_ agree on, not? Than try to forget the things we disagree on; we are on LXer and use Linux for different reasons, and try to focus on what gets us together. That goes for all of us, including myself and _everyone_ above. It's a different process, but it's worth it. Only after we know and are concious of what brings us together on LXer and other Linux-platforms, there is room for disagreements.
If you rather focus on what we disagree on, you are effectively breaking ad-hoc alliances. Since those ad-hoc alliances aren't managed and very loose, that's a very easy thing to do. If you like to break alliances, do so, but please ask Microsoft to pay you, because you are effectively doing _their_ job.
hkwint,
Have you read my post above?
There is nothing wrong with debating differences and voicing opinions, on the contrary, it is a very healthy process and strengthens FOSS in general. what is harmful is alienation. I beleive that MS is more scared of FOSS openness than anything else.
Most of the posters above brought up good points, what I was trying to say is every distro has its strong and weak points and eventually will mature and coexist and let's leave it at that.
I think your post is unnecessarily a little harsh.
Have you read my post above?
There is nothing wrong with debating differences and voicing opinions, on the contrary, it is a very healthy process and strengthens FOSS in general. what is harmful is alienation. I beleive that MS is more scared of FOSS openness than anything else.
Most of the posters above brought up good points, what I was trying to say is every distro has its strong and weak points and eventually will mature and coexist and let's leave it at that.
I think your post is unnecessarily a little harsh.
Most of my rants are only about Ubuntu as being the best for New Linux Users. I don't think it is the most friendly in that aspect.
It makes a mean server for me at work though :) So I have no problems with it...I hate to see it be labeled something it isn't. Hence why I rant against it a bit. At the same time, I also blog about it positively as well...but one could ascertain that I don't based on only reading my rants...so I understand why people would think this.
It makes a mean server for me at work though :) So I have no problems with it...I hate to see it be labeled something it isn't. Hence why I rant against it a bit. At the same time, I also blog about it positively as well...but one could ascertain that I don't based on only reading my rants...so I understand why people would think this.
>There is nothing wrong with debating differences and voicing opinions, on the contrary, it is a very healthy process and strengthens FOSS in general
I don't think that's what hk is talking about.
You know as well as I do that there are too many folks who make too many small things too important for too little reason. Debating differences and voicing opinions is a good thing. Barking at each other is not.
The difference lies in respect and consideration. By that, I don't mean charm school etiquette so much as remembering that others have value and may even know something, ie, we can all learn something from most of the people around us.
I agree that this thread is pretty much within the range of strongly held differences pursued with passion and conviction, but, when you've heard (read) enough of the other stuff, you can grow weary and you can get a bit touchy.
I don't think that's what hk is talking about.
You know as well as I do that there are too many folks who make too many small things too important for too little reason. Debating differences and voicing opinions is a good thing. Barking at each other is not.
The difference lies in respect and consideration. By that, I don't mean charm school etiquette so much as remembering that others have value and may even know something, ie, we can all learn something from most of the people around us.
I agree that this thread is pretty much within the range of strongly held differences pursued with passion and conviction, but, when you've heard (read) enough of the other stuff, you can grow weary and you can get a bit touchy.
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@dcparris: At least they dropped the binary video driver idea. And that's a good thing because it would have driven lots of experienced Linux people away. Their community is good because the pro's educate the newbies. It will collapse if the pro's leave. Newbies can't support newbies.
My personal beef is that the quality of the distribution has slipped. I find each release more sluggish and unstable than the one before. I think QA is seriously lacking at Canonical. Edgy finally did it in for me. This laptop is the last Ubuntu machine I have left. The only reason that I didn't switch it to Debian is that it's a company laptop and I have to give it back in two weeks anyway when I change jobs.