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Dell Listens to GNU/Linux Community - Will It Pay Off?
A Little HistoryConsidering Dell's long history with Microsoft, one has to wonder why Dell is venturing into the GNU/Linux waters. Face it. Dell has been in Microsoft's bed from the beginning. They are a Tier 1 Microsoft Windows computer manufacturer. Yet, over the last several years, they have attempted to sell computers with Red Hat Linux to consumers, successfully built a Red Hat-oriented server line, and now are wading back into the consumer GNU/Linux waters. What gives? Is Dell groping for the community in a last ditch effort to remain relevant, or are they really listening? In order to answer that question, we need to consider some important facts. Dell's GNU/Linux server business has actually led to a strong GNU/Linux community within Dell. The Dell forums include a forum for GNU/Linux users. Dell supports at least 8 GNU/Linux and FOSS projects. Dell's Linux community forums have threads going back as far as November, 1999. 2007 is when things begin to get really interesting though. Dell announced Michael's return on 31 January of this year. Just two weeks later, on February 17th, Dell launched IdeaStorm. In addition, Dell operates other sites, such as Direct2Dell, Ideas In Action, and StudioDell..But Dell didn't stop there. Dell representatives have been visiting blogs and news sites, including LXer, to engage the GNU/Linux community directly. These encounters have proven to be both lively and fairly useful. The Dialog at LXerWhen John Pope, a Dell spokesperson, visited LXer, the editorial team and readers were able to provide just the kind of feedback Dell needs to hear. In a thread started by Pope himself, LXer reader Libervis laid out the general demands of the GNU/Linux community: Quoting:Pope responded that he would carry Libervis' points, verbatim, to the product team at Dell. Pope also took the time to work with LXer's editorial team to correct misleading advertising links. All that sounds pretty good. How well will it work? Dell's Listening effortsLXer followed up with Pope to learn more about Dell's outreach program, as well as to inquire about the Google ad campaign. By visiting Dell's Conversations website, readers can see what the company is doing to interact with customers. StudioDell offers technical information via videos and podcasts. Direct2Dell is Dell's blog. IdeaStorm is where users can let Dell know what they are thinking. Ideas in Action is essentially where Dell determines what ideas from IdeaStorm get implemented. Looking at the big picture, it's easy to see how Dell might win customers' confidence. Customers see an opportunity to communicate directly to Dell - focus groups should have died with the '80's. Dell then announces what they have chosen to act on, meaning customers potentially get to see their ideas implemented. Simultaneously, there is plenty of interaction and community building going on through the studio, the blog and the outreach project. Like most other Dell spokespeople, Pope uses "Dell" in his username, thus clearly designating who he represents. This is a far cry from the shills and astroturfing deployed by some companies. Pope also made no excuses for Dell's public relations department, which had previously failed to respond to phone calls, etc. in an effort to raise questions about misleading advertising links. Clearly, Dell knows they face a credibility problem and are working to correct it. Much depends on how well they are listening. When I asked Pope whether the higher-ups were really listening, he replied (partial quote), "...Our online outreach augments our listening, and the process is simple and unbureaucratic...as in forwarding excerpts to full conversations that may have nuggets of info/insight directly to product and/or marketing decision makers." This is what he was referring to when he promised he would pass on Libervis' comment. Challenges For DellI really get the impression that Michael walked into his office and said, "Let's stop, look and listen". I have pointed out how hard Dell seems to be working, and highlighted the obviously coherent and well-coordinated plan. Still, re-earning trust is an uphill battle. Customers have long memories and they definitely remember that problem that took weeks or months to resolve - if it ever did get resolved. And the GNU/Linux community has not yet forgotten that Dell quietly quit offering Red Hat for its consumer lineup. Dell has finally returned to the Penguinista colony, and even chosen a specific distribution. And in so doing, Dell must not treat our community as second-class citizens. They absolutely, positively must market their Ubuntu boxes heavily. They must make it easy to find the Ubuntu boxes, and they must omit the infamous "Microsoft tax" from those computers. Last, but not least, they definitely need to release libre drivers for their hardware. We don't want no stinking proprietary binary crap in our systems. If Dell falls short on the crucial points, they'll be in for a rude awakening. Not everyone will balk. But many will. Then it will be even more difficult to overcome the recalcitrance of the community. It all depends on how well Dell is listening right now. If, on the other hand, Dell does well on these crucial points, and lets our community know just how serious they are about having a good working relationship, even those who wouldn't buy Dell's computers for themselves will, in many cases suggest Dell to others nonetheless. That's the kind of thing goodwill can buy. We'll see some glitches along the way. Happens all the time. For example, we still see Dell Linux Computer ads in the Google ad banner on LXer. In talking with Pope, he mentioned that Dell has several business units, all of whom have to address the keyword issue - something that may take time, if it can be reasonably done. Additionally, When Dell launches its Ubuntu product line, they will be able to direct people to the appropriate links. Even then, there are likely to be glitches. Note: Edited to reflect the fact that Michael Dell founded his company in 1984. He started out in his dorm room as "PC's Limited". Thanks to our readers for catching the error. References
Dell has not been completely successful in its efforts to correct the Google ad campaign issues:
The source URL contains a Google ad banner showing "Dell Linux Computer" on the left, and "Linux Rtos" on the right:
http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/25230/ |
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Comments (87)
Dell is indeed listening
39 earlier comments in the full thread.
I fully agree with you on your latter points though dcparris, we've seen the marketing hoopla before and haven't forgotten. Dell have some brownie points to win before they can consider themselves in the good books.
Dell may be about a year behind HP on thischasing the game already, but lately they've made a good effort in trying to get their point across, I'm looking forwards if they'll back it up or if theyll do an Unbreakable Dell. As for their Novell type deal, I'm beginning to think that if those patent clauses ever get brought in to court theyll be laughed right out again, Linux is here and it's here to stay, it's unlikely MS will be able to give it a RIM job (sorry, couldnt resist).
Regards,
ABCC
P.S. Sounds like the guy you know needs a taxi number rather than the blood of christ.
Well, he just came out of rehab. He's lost his job here as a result of not being able to travel back and forth, so that's pretty much that.
I think Dell is trying to earn our respect. Still, they do have to earn it. I think their Conversations project is coherent/cohesive. If Michael manages to pull the disparate units together well, gets everyone on the same sheet of music, he will pull off a huge victory.
You're leaving out one step in the process DC. If people buy the systems. In addition to Dell doing their part, Linux users have to put their money where their mouth is. That's why that $450 is setting in my bank account.
@jdixon: without disclosing which products we'll be selling, we're on exactly the same wavelength. As I mentioned in my blog back on March 28 http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/03/28/9655.aspx, we appreciate open source drivers and prefer them whenever possible. For video, you'll have a choice between the open-source driver and the closed-source driver (if there is either for any given chip).
Thanks, Matt
1) Intel graphics + free driver 2) Nvidia graphics + closed driver
1) Intel graphics + free driver 2) Nvidia graphics + closed driver
The only people that would choose Nvidia + free driver are the dual booters, and in that case you're far better off buying a Windows box instead of a Linux box (installing Windows on a Linux box is a pain because the Windows installer insists on eating the entire hard drive. The reverse is easy because Linux installers behave much better).
Care to try again?
I have 4 computers in my house, only 1 of them is dual-boot, all of them are linux (2 PCLOS, 1 Debian, 1 Sabayon) and all of them are nVidia. Yes, before you ask all of them using the proprietary drivers.
...
I just deleted a fairly vitriolic couple of paragraphs, in their place I will put, please be more careful in making sweeping statements.
Quoting: You do realize that that is not a problem with Intel or their driver, but a BIOS issue? Yes, Dell and HP (and I bet other's too) ship laptops with LCD monitors not supported by their BIOSes. Proprietry drivers work around that by overruling the BIOS. That's what 915resolution does.But of course - which is the whole reason we used 915resolution. The problem is, things don't really work out all that well, even with 915resolution. We were able to get accelerated 3D at 1024x768, and were happy about that - until we corrected the resolution. oops, no more 3D. We tried a number of times, using different combinations of default depth, resolution, and sync frequencies, and came to the sad conclusion that we could either have hardware accelerated 3D, or we could have the correct resolution.
We also found that in trying different resolutions with the intel drivers, the screen would sometimes become corrupted, and nothing would fix it, short of a reboot, which is completely bizarre.
In contrast, once we got the new laptop and installed the nvidia drivers, everything went smoothly and easily, it all worked perfectly, linux was happy and we were happy. Can you blame anyone for wanting to take the proprietary driver route, given the results?
It is very strange to see a conversation in which your desire for stuff that works well is confused with a love for proprietary drivers.
I would love free nVidia drivers that come within shouting distance of the proprietary drivers. In the meantime, I need XvMC to make HD video work properly, and will use the proprietary drivers with no guilt whatsoever.
@herzeleid: Yes, the closed driver does it better than the open driver. But the problem is caused by the BIOS and should be corrected in the bios, not hacked around by the driver. All it proves so far is that Nvidia is better at hacking around BIOS problems than we are (with free drivers).
They probably wouldn't, but they might purchase a motherboard with the Geforce 6150 video onboard; or pick up and old FX5200, a Geforce 6200LE, a Geforce 7100GS, or a Geforce 7300LE, all of which can be purchased for less than $50. In which case they're probably not a gamer, and they may be able to get by with the open source nv driver with no problems.
Maybe not a gamer, but some of those cards are highly desirable for MythTV because they are passively cooled (as in low-power and silent) and provide support for MPEG video decoding via XvMC. You can put together a pretty decent digital tv center that way, as digital TV is a special case of MPEG.
The rub is that you gotta use the proprietary driver to get XvMC.
http://enterpriselinuxlog.blogs.techtarget.com/2007/05/09/am...
Quoting:AMD will soon deliver open graphics drivers, said Henri Richard just a few minutes ago, and the audience at the opening keynote of the Red Hat Summit broke into applause and cheers. Richard, AMD’s executive vice president of sales and marketing, promised: “I’m here to commit to you that it’s going to get done.” He also promised that AMD is “going to be very proactive in changing way we interface with the Linux community.”
I'll be buying an AMD/ATI card the day they release the drivers :-)
Quoting:So now Dell and AMD are cultivating linux. Interesting trend there.....
I can't wait to see how other OEMs going to jump on the bandwagon.
If Dell speeds up their roll out of Linux desktops, which it seems they are, they will capture most of the PC users market and become #1 again.
Suggestion to Dell
I don't want to spend the afternoon figuring out if I can run linux on this thing. If people inside Dell are using linux, shouldn't they already get this? (Just get a Knoppix disc and run lspci. Post the results and I'm good to go.)
Sorry to be negative, but I don't get what's so difficult about this.
(OTOH, check out the "Wireless Headache" thread for some reasons they may want to keep secret what is Dell Wireless 1390.)
I bet they have. I bet they also face some of the same challenges as GNU/Linux evangelists in other companies. This kind of thing will take time - Dell is a pretty big place. But your point is dead on. Dell really needs to let us know what will and won't work.
Checking..... Yep. The various fora on the net say it's a Broadcom 43xx chipset.
Hear hear!!
ABCC
For Pete's sake why do you HOPE your capitol opinione will change soon??
jdixon... thanks for the help, but i was just using that model as an example to show how unfriendly Dell really is. When I want a new computer I just wander over to Best Buy with a Knoppix CD and find something nice that someone returned. Then I buy it at half price and throw Slackware on it.
I'd be happy if I could just buy a computer without the salesperson sneering at me if I use the "L" word.
I'll go along with that.
Do we need Dell?
I think that Dell can’t listen, no matter how hard it tries. Michael’s original “custom” model no longer applies -- a Dell system is nothing more than a mass-produced package that takes several weeks to get to your doorstep.
We started a volunteer company, http://www.zareason.com that functions on the same principles as FOSS. People email us and ask crazy things like, “I want to plug a CellCard into the PCI / ExpressCard slot on your BigLap so my teenager can play WoW on our next roadtrip and maintain connectivity in the car. Can you do it?” We look into it; other people look into it; we make it work.
It seems obvious that hardware for the FOSS market will be built best by the little guys.
No. If the goal is to have Linux continue as it is (primarily a server operating system with token desktop penetration), then we've managed without them so far, and we can continue to do so. However, if the goal is to spread Linux to the masses, then the answer is yes, we need Dell. We also need HP, Leveno, Gateway, and everyone else we can get.
> What else? Notoriety? Legitimacy? There are easier ways to achieve that.
Then why haven't we? In spite of the communities best efforts, Linux is an unknown to most computer users.
> Then why haven't we? In spite of the communities best efforts, Linux is an unknown to most computer users.
Legitimacy isn't a goal to me. It's a fact. Period. I don't need the OS I use exclusively to be legitimized. Recognition and pervasiveness are definitely worthwhile goals. We don't necessarily *need* Dell. I agree that going to the little guys is usually best for a number of reasons. Still, having Dell as a distributor of GNU/Linux systems is a Good Thing. And yes, I do wish they would do consumers a real favor and ditch Windows altogether. But that's another project. ;-)
I suspect it’s because the Linux community was busy coding.
I think that the Librarian installing Ubuntu video is just as effective at getting Linux into the public eye as Dell is with its army of well-trained and highly-paid marketing experts stepping as carefully as they can.
The market is shifting, thankfully.
No matter what your opinion about their hardware, Dell probably outsells most of the vendors in the LXer database by a thousand to one. I'd rather spend my time selling the benefits of Linux than convincing them where to buy their hardware.
In addition, the big companies sell low-priced hardware that the small companies can't match. You can go into a Circuit City and pick up a new HP Vista laptop for $430. There are two things there: going into Circuit City and paying $430, neither of which is possible with the small guys.
I have nothing against any of these companies, but really we're kidding ourselves if we think we will ever break the 5% market share barrier without support from Dell, HP and the other big boys. You may not like Dell, but a lot of people do, and for the life of me I can't see why we should take a position on that.
Saying the little guy can't compete with the big guy is like saying that Linux can't compete with Microsoft.
(BTW, the cheapest Circuit City laptop is currently $630, not $430, just fyi.)
You made several good points in your post.
Tipping point (we hope). Thanks to Ubuntu (we hope).
One of your previous points was that "small companies [can't] offer a better deal."
That's where the market shift may come into play: 1. Tier 1 suppliers are more open than ever, 2. Overhead is more costly than ever, and 3. Customers are pickier than ever.
I am hoping I'm right on that last point; I’m counting on it. Shuttleworth said it best in his pre-Dell post where he said he would not start his own hardware company because Linux people are picky. (What was the exact word he used? ...finicky? ...exacting?) I think it will take someone lean & fresh to create a fluid product creation process.
Dell has smelled this, as you said, like blood in the water. They may do a great job, who knows. I hope they do because they are doing all the advertising that little companies like mine need. That said, I used to live in Dellionaire land and I just can’t imagine such a large machine building truly custom systems. As long as price is not an issue (and the market has shifted so that little guys can give Dell-ish prices too), then it’s a matter of customer confidence, habit, and at the end of the day, a philosophical choice.
Then Shuttleworth is making the same mistake as those who say that the linux market share doesn't justify dealing with us. That's a red herring. There are already plenty of existing hardware companies. They know we buy computers and the marginal cost to them of selling us computers is extremely low. So why don't they do it?
jdixon said... Then why haven't we?
Because the game is rigged. Closed source drivers, vendor lock-in, IP threats. (Whatever "IP" means this week. It's been a moving target over my lifetime.)
Founded in 1997???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell
"In 1989, PC's Limited set up its first on-site-service programs in order to compensate for the lack of local retailers prepared to act as service centers. Also in 1987, the company set up its first operations in the United Kingdom; eleven more international operations followed within the next four years. In June 1988, Dell's market capitalization grew by $30 million to $80 million from its initial public offering of 3.5 million shares at $8.50 a share. The company changed its name to "Dell Computer Corporation" in 1988.
In 1990, Dell Computer Corporation tried selling its products indirectly through warehouse-clubs and computer-superstores, but met with little success, and the company re-focused on its more successful direct-to-consumer sales model. In 1992, Fortune magazine included Dell Computer Corporation in its list of the world's 500 largest companies.
In 1996, Dell began selling computers via its web site.
[...]
"
Thanks for catching that.
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I really think Dell is trying to figure out what to do next. I don't think it's a marketing stunt at all. Michael comes back and takes over at a low point in the company's history. They're in a little trouble right now. It's time to observe, to ask questions, to listen, to repeat back what they are hearing. I just hope they aren't like the guy I know who had an accident during the week, went to church on Sunday, came back to work on Monday, claiming he hadn't cursed and felt more relaxed, only to start cursing like a sailor on Tuesday, and then got busted for DUI in a second accident a couple weeks later.
If Dell does all this listening, and then turns around and puts the Ubuntu line-up on a web page that you have to use ESP to obtain the URL, and doesn't tell anyone where to find these boxes, it will prove to be a bad experience for everyone involved. And, many HP boxes work with Debian out of the box. So, if Dell's boxes don't stand up, and the customers have a bad experience with them, again, it's more trouble.
It's true that the "Conversations" project should prove to be a great PR gig. Still, I want to be sure that what we hear back from Dell is exactly what we have been telling them.