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Why Novell Must Not Crash and Burn
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Comments (22)
Not to worry. Nobody cares.
Free software folks are much more interested in talking about freedom than having it.
I kinda agree with him, it is much better to have Novell still in business than not too.
Whether we like what they have done recently or not, they have brought many more people to Open Source software than there were before they started using FOSS.
Whether we like what they have done recently or not, they have brought many more people to Open Source software than there were before they started using FOSS.
Scott -
I really wish there had been more "Boy, we're sorry you did this. This is bad for free software and, ultimately, will be bad for you" and less "You evil stinking whore company, I hope you die and take your children with you".
One leads to "How can we fix this?" and the other leads to...well...something different, I think.
I really wish there had been more "Boy, we're sorry you did this. This is bad for free software and, ultimately, will be bad for you" and less "You evil stinking whore company, I hope you die and take your children with you".
One leads to "How can we fix this?" and the other leads to...well...something different, I think.
there was just no good reason for this deal.
I like suse linux especially their 64 bit edition - it was very nice and I bought it from the local computer store.
I am also a soon to be extinct CNE going back to version 3.11 - ah those were the days.
but just when novell seems like they are going to turn the corner and really get some momentum going they shoot themselves in the foot. I don't want to see them go out of business either but I think they would of had a better chance at doing business without this deal. nobody wants to get tangled up in microsoft's IP. I bet Goldman-Sachs was using novell linux and microsoft put pressure on them to buy patent protection because they are using linux. and since Goldman-Sachs has power in determining the value of stocks for both companies they forced a deal between the two.
I have no problems with the deal with microsoft except the patent portion. If they took that part out I would be okay with the deal. with that said there was no need for the deal because the code is out there for everyone to inter-operate with how they see fit.
the problem I have with it is that microsoft is making out the open source folks as IP thieves. which is the opposite of reality.
I do think Miguel and company better be careful about getting any of microsoft's code in linux though. I would not put it beyond microsoft to do some tom foolery and stick some of their trash patented code in linux.
I like suse linux especially their 64 bit edition - it was very nice and I bought it from the local computer store.
I am also a soon to be extinct CNE going back to version 3.11 - ah those were the days.
but just when novell seems like they are going to turn the corner and really get some momentum going they shoot themselves in the foot. I don't want to see them go out of business either but I think they would of had a better chance at doing business without this deal. nobody wants to get tangled up in microsoft's IP. I bet Goldman-Sachs was using novell linux and microsoft put pressure on them to buy patent protection because they are using linux. and since Goldman-Sachs has power in determining the value of stocks for both companies they forced a deal between the two.
I have no problems with the deal with microsoft except the patent portion. If they took that part out I would be okay with the deal. with that said there was no need for the deal because the code is out there for everyone to inter-operate with how they see fit.
the problem I have with it is that microsoft is making out the open source folks as IP thieves. which is the opposite of reality.
I do think Miguel and company better be careful about getting any of microsoft's code in linux though. I would not put it beyond microsoft to do some tom foolery and stick some of their trash patented code in linux.
Quoting:I would not put it beyond Microsoft to do some tom foolery and stick some of their trash patented code in linux.
For Microsoft's part, I think that was in their minds when this all came about.
>there was just no good reason for this deal.
Spoken like somebody who doesn't care about the facts. The thing to remember is that the patent protection for Linux users was a last minute request by Microsoft on a deal that Novell wanted very much and had been negotiating for a long time.
Novell wanted the deal done and didn't see any reason to scotch a deal worth several hundred million dollars.
They may regret that decision now, but it really is important to remember that we are talking about a small part of a bigger deal.
Spoken like somebody who doesn't care about the facts. The thing to remember is that the patent protection for Linux users was a last minute request by Microsoft on a deal that Novell wanted very much and had been negotiating for a long time.
Novell wanted the deal done and didn't see any reason to scotch a deal worth several hundred million dollars.
They may regret that decision now, but it really is important to remember that we are talking about a small part of a bigger deal.
They may regret that decision now, but it really is important to remember that we are talking about a small part of a bigger deal.
True, but one corpse in the well poisons it completely...
True, but one corpse in the well poisons it completely...
> True, but one corpse in the well poisons it completely...
To be fair to Novell, their CEO was new to the job, and they were dealing with a company well known for underhanded tricks. I think they got snookered. I don't think they understood exactly what they were agreeing to or how Microsoft would use it. Of course, when you deal with the devil...
To be fair to Novell, their CEO was new to the job, and they were dealing with a company well known for underhanded tricks. I think they got snookered. I don't think they understood exactly what they were agreeing to or how Microsoft would use it. Of course, when you deal with the devil...
>when you deal with the devil...
It's easy to be harsh when you're not the one who's company is going south.
Even Steve Jobs was forced to deal with the devil. For that matter, so was IBM.
They've each made out OK. Novell remains in the woods, but who can tell?
It's easy to be harsh when you're not the one who's company is going south.
Even Steve Jobs was forced to deal with the devil. For that matter, so was IBM.
They've each made out OK. Novell remains in the woods, but who can tell?
dinotrac -
Sadly, I have to agree. The Free Software nuts cause at least as much damage to linux adoption as Microsoft does. Notice also that I don't use the term "GNU/Linux". That's no more accurate than "X.org/Linux", and one more example of how skewed the perspective of this crowd tends to be. All the freedom in the world is worth nothing if nobody uses your code. And they haven't figured out yet that they're not big enough to use the same draconian control tactics as Microsoft to accomplish their ends, no matter how noble their claimed goals are.
Scott - Not to worry. Any code they contribute to linux, OO.org, or any other open source project becomes open source code - and is bound by that license. They've contributed it, it's out there for anyone to use. There's no such tom foolery that could be accomplished.
jsusanka - Actually, I see several good reasons for the deal. Increased adoption, publicity, interoperability, assurance to the customer that they won't get sued (yes, I know - it's pure smoke, but that's exactly the kind of FUD my boss looses sleep over). I'm a CNE myself, and loved NetWare right up until about 6.0, when you could really start to see the design limits of that platform. NW5.1 was nearly perfect at what it did, but time marches on, and Novell realizes that Linux is at the core of it's future. They won't intentionally do anything to screw that up.
As for the whole patent thing, it's not really that relevant. Andy Updegrove did a great article on the subject on his standards blog site. just search for "Through the Patent Looking Glass with Microsoft's Brad Smith." Read through that, and it becomes fairly evident that the big stink the FSF and more fanatic members of the community make about the "EVIL PATENT ISSUE" just harms the free software and open source communities, and ultimately linux adoption as a whole.
Scott - Not to worry. Any code they contribute to linux, OO.org, or any other open source project becomes open source code - and is bound by that license. They've contributed it, it's out there for anyone to use. There's no such tom foolery that could be accomplished.
jsusanka - Actually, I see several good reasons for the deal. Increased adoption, publicity, interoperability, assurance to the customer that they won't get sued (yes, I know - it's pure smoke, but that's exactly the kind of FUD my boss looses sleep over). I'm a CNE myself, and loved NetWare right up until about 6.0, when you could really start to see the design limits of that platform. NW5.1 was nearly perfect at what it did, but time marches on, and Novell realizes that Linux is at the core of it's future. They won't intentionally do anything to screw that up.
As for the whole patent thing, it's not really that relevant. Andy Updegrove did a great article on the subject on his standards blog site. just search for "Through the Patent Looking Glass with Microsoft's Brad Smith." Read through that, and it becomes fairly evident that the big stink the FSF and more fanatic members of the community make about the "EVIL PATENT ISSUE" just harms the free software and open source communities, and ultimately linux adoption as a whole.
> It's easy to be harsh when you're not the one who's company is going south.
> Novell remains in the woods, but who can tell?
True on both counts. I'm don't think I'm being overly harsh, but it's wise for both others and myself to keep that in mind.
True on both counts. I'm don't think I'm being overly harsh, but it's wise for both others and myself to keep that in mind.
To be fair to Novell, their CEO was new to the job, and they were dealing with a company well known for underhanded tricks. I think they got snookered. I don't think they understood exactly what they were agreeing to or how Microsoft would use it. Of course, when you deal with the devil...
Of course Novell got hoodwinked. Problem is that, although the patent "covenant" is only a minute part of the deal, it drags all FOSS software into the MS patent mud by association. Novell bought a lemon.
Too bad for Novell, but the community can only trust companies with the caliber of Red Hat. Unwavering at their FOSS business principals.
Novell has done nothing more than meager damage control by releasing appeasing press releases, instead of directly confronting MS on their sleazy behavior. We might have to think twice if Novell can be trusted to take care of part of the FOSS crown jewels.
Nothing personal Novell, but the whole ecosphere is more important than one company.
Of course Novell got hoodwinked. Problem is that, although the patent "covenant" is only a minute part of the deal, it drags all FOSS software into the MS patent mud by association. Novell bought a lemon.
Too bad for Novell, but the community can only trust companies with the caliber of Red Hat. Unwavering at their FOSS business principals.
Novell has done nothing more than meager damage control by releasing appeasing press releases, instead of directly confronting MS on their sleazy behavior. We might have to think twice if Novell can be trusted to take care of part of the FOSS crown jewels.
Nothing personal Novell, but the whole ecosphere is more important than one company.
dino, you're right. Hating Novell and wishing for their destruction is silly and wrong. At the beginning the patent-protection bit of the deal looked dangerous, but since then it has faded considerably as a genuine threat, and now it looks pretty much like bluster and vapor. (now there's a more appropriate name for Microsoft.)
The GPL and FOSS in general have survived non-stop attacks by Bluster and Vapor, Inc. Their best shots are long gone. They'll keep trying, of course, because that's the destructive and unproductive course they've locked themselves into. But all they have left is deceitful yapping, like irritable little dogs. They can still do damage, especially in the legislative arena, and that puts them on par with the MAFIAA- when you can't woo customers like a normal sane business, sue them and criminally prosecute them instead.
Bluster and Vapor, Inc. have done a lot to legitimize FOSS in the eyes of PHBs and other suits. That wasn't their intent, but oopsie! The best-laid nefarious schemes and all that. They've succeeded in exposing a whole new potential user base to Linux and FOSS. I'm not going to thank them, but let's be realistic here- the GPL and FOSS are quite durable. It's all going to work out.
The GPL and FOSS in general have survived non-stop attacks by Bluster and Vapor, Inc. Their best shots are long gone. They'll keep trying, of course, because that's the destructive and unproductive course they've locked themselves into. But all they have left is deceitful yapping, like irritable little dogs. They can still do damage, especially in the legislative arena, and that puts them on par with the MAFIAA- when you can't woo customers like a normal sane business, sue them and criminally prosecute them instead.
Bluster and Vapor, Inc. have done a lot to legitimize FOSS in the eyes of PHBs and other suits. That wasn't their intent, but oopsie! The best-laid nefarious schemes and all that. They've succeeded in exposing a whole new potential user base to Linux and FOSS. I'm not going to thank them, but let's be realistic here- the GPL and FOSS are quite durable. It's all going to work out.
TC -
Fortunately, the most important people managed to pull themselves up out of slippery slope mode and get on with business. I think even the GPLV3 will end up OK...though it's not guaranteed.
Fortunately, the most important people managed to pull themselves up out of slippery slope mode and get on with business. I think even the GPLV3 will end up OK...though it's not guaranteed.
"Spoken like somebody who doesn't care about the facts. The thing to remember is that the patent protection for Linux users was a last minute request by Microsoft on a deal that Novell wanted very much and had been negotiating for a long time."
All I can say is looking at facts that all that has come from this deal is Novell got money, microsoft got to spread some fud around about IP and became a Linux distributor, and interoperability got nothing - where is all this great interoperability?. Like I said the code is out there for anybody to inter-operate with anyway they want - there was no need for this deal.
With the patent being such a small part and last minute (I wasn't there so I can say it was last minute but that is what the parties say) it sure got the majority of attention from microsoft.
All I can say is looking at facts that all that has come from this deal is Novell got money, microsoft got to spread some fud around about IP and became a Linux distributor, and interoperability got nothing - where is all this great interoperability?. Like I said the code is out there for anybody to inter-operate with anyway they want - there was no need for this deal.
With the patent being such a small part and last minute (I wasn't there so I can say it was last minute but that is what the parties say) it sure got the majority of attention from microsoft.
>With the patent being such a small part and last minute (I wasn't there so I can say it was last minute but that is what the parties say) it sure got the majority of attention from microsoft.
No. It got the majority of the attention from FOSS Chicken Littles.
No. It got the majority of the attention from FOSS Chicken Littles.
The interoperability is a high-priority item for MS, so will likely happen almost as fast as Vista. Iow, you should see it in about 10 years.
system v patents and copyrights? old mold
This part I don't get:
" If Novell crashes, then its assets would be up for grabs, and among those assets there is that little matter of the Unix patents and copyrights it claims to own. Now, who could possibly be interested in acquiring some old patents and copyrights that just happen to underpin the entire GNU/Linux operating system – and has enough spare cash to out-bid anyone on the planet? You don't need three guesses for that one.
"If Novell crashes and burns, it is entirely possible that patents and copyrights that are being used to defend free software would fall into the hands of a company that has already made plenty of noise about using patents to attack it. Maybe those patents and copyrights would prove irrelevant to GNU/Linux, maybe they wouldn't. "
"underpin the entire GNU/Linux operating system"?? I don't think so! He's referring to UNIX System V patents acquired in 1992. That's ancient history- how many of them have expired already, or about to?
Unix copyrights are not an issue for a number of reasons- Linux is not copied Unix, and there are some good arguments that old Unix code has been passed around so much and exists in so many textbooks it doesn't have any copyright protection left anyway.
Novell is not doomed, either. They've survived worse, and if you read the actual numbers instead of the poor reporting, their numbers are up for the quarter.
" If Novell crashes, then its assets would be up for grabs, and among those assets there is that little matter of the Unix patents and copyrights it claims to own. Now, who could possibly be interested in acquiring some old patents and copyrights that just happen to underpin the entire GNU/Linux operating system – and has enough spare cash to out-bid anyone on the planet? You don't need three guesses for that one.
"If Novell crashes and burns, it is entirely possible that patents and copyrights that are being used to defend free software would fall into the hands of a company that has already made plenty of noise about using patents to attack it. Maybe those patents and copyrights would prove irrelevant to GNU/Linux, maybe they wouldn't. "
"underpin the entire GNU/Linux operating system"?? I don't think so! He's referring to UNIX System V patents acquired in 1992. That's ancient history- how many of them have expired already, or about to?
Unix copyrights are not an issue for a number of reasons- Linux is not copied Unix, and there are some good arguments that old Unix code has been passed around so much and exists in so many textbooks it doesn't have any copyright protection left anyway.
Novell is not doomed, either. They've survived worse, and if you read the actual numbers instead of the poor reporting, their numbers are up for the quarter.
> ...and if you read the actual numbers instead of the poor reporting, their numbers are up for the quarter.
The market seems to agree. Novell stock is up 5% as of the time of this post.
The market seems to agree. Novell stock is up 5% as of the time of this post.
> and there are some good arguments that old Unix code has been passed around so much and exists in so many textbooks it doesn't have any copyright protection left anyway.
Methinks you're confusing copyright with trademark. Copyright doesn't "rub off" and copyrighted material does not become generic. When the copyrights expire, the material enters into the public domain.
Methinks you're confusing copyright with trademark. Copyright doesn't "rub off" and copyrighted material does not become generic. When the copyrights expire, the material enters into the public domain.
Yeah, I'm just confused from too much reading :)
I still dispute "underpin the entire GNU/Linux operating system". That makes no sense.
I still dispute "underpin the entire GNU/Linux operating system". That makes no sense.
>That makes no sense.
Hey come on...
It certainly makes as much sense as somebody using Windows as a platform for serious computing.
Oh, wait...
Hey come on...
It certainly makes as much sense as somebody using Windows as a platform for serious computing.
Oh, wait...
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