IE is irrelevant in a FOSS powered world.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| r_a_trip Apr 27, 2006 7:14 AM EDT |
But is it ready to go up against Firefox? Maybe it will lure some Firefox using Windows people back, but IE is a non-starter on alternative OSes. |
| jdixon Apr 27, 2006 7:15 AM EDT |
> ...but IE is a non-starter on alternative OSes. What, you haven't installed IE under Wine for those IE only sites out there? :) |
| dcparris Apr 27, 2006 9:28 AM EDT |
The funny thing is that this guy gives the advantages to Microsoft in some cases because Firefox doesn't work out of the box the way MSIE7 does. He is essentially complaining that you have to download an extension in order to do what MSIE7 does. It's petty. |
| sbergman27 Apr 28, 2006 2:59 PM EDT |
r_a_trip, Yes, you are right. IE is a non-starter on alternative OSes. That's why I need to set up a couple of Windows boxes over the weekend to send down to Dallas to replace 2 Linux boxes for a client of mine. Mapsco, which they now require, doesn't support anything but IE and IE doesn't work very well under wine. (Even the latest version of X-Over foo-bars when you try to use "web applications" as opposed to casual browsing, with IE.) |
| grouch Apr 28, 2006 4:16 PM EDT |
Any business parasitically connected to Microsoft deserves to be shunned. |
| sbergman27 Apr 28, 2006 7:47 PM EDT |
On Monday, then, I'll tell my client that any business that is parasitically connected to Microsoft deserves to be shunned. That we're going to leave the Linux boxes alone. And that they are just going to have to do without Mapsco. Problem solved. Except that within a week they'd have a new consulting company in doing a survey and more likely than not, the new company would recommend pulling all the Linux I have in there and replacing it with Windows. There is a big difference between setting up systems for one's self and one's relatives, and working for a real client. On my own systems, when a site requires IE, I can just say "Freak You" and go on. When a client comes to me and says "we need this" I can either give it to them or come up with a *valid* argument why it's not a good idea. And free as in freedom is *not* usually a valid argument in that case. In fact, there *are* no really valid arguments I could make in this instance. And that's a reality that I face all too often. |
| grouch Apr 28, 2006 8:13 PM EDT |
sbergman27: I've been down that road, too. A provider of automobile parts data, with vendors, various costs, vehicle specs, cross-references, etc. moved the decimal point 3 places to the right for their charges for Linux, for exactly the same data they provide for MS Windows based systems. Strangely, they offer the same data service online for access by any platform at the MS Windows price. The situation where this came up was with an independent auto parts store I converted to Linux. The only reason they had to retain an MS Windows box was for that data service subscription. They had a DSL connection but refused to switch from the mailed CD to the online service. I set up their mixed network and got away. It was just too bizarre for me. Your _client_ should be shunning Mapsco until they provide their service without all the additional expenses that ride along with IE. After all, are they in the business of selling maps or selling Microsoft products? The Dilbert comic strip is a reflection of a scary number of real businesses. |
| sbergman27 Apr 28, 2006 8:34 PM EDT |
Well, my client is in the business of providing fast and efficient service to their customers, and not in the business of worrying about what a company in a different industry requires to use their web service. Either Linux does what they want and provides them value or it doesn't. As to Mapsco requiring IE, I've had the same conversation with the support departments of many providers of web based services. The argument generally boils down to: "According to our statistics, almost everyone uses IE. And of those that don't, the majority could easily do so to use our service". And the irritating thing about it is that they are right. |
| dinotrac Apr 28, 2006 10:54 PM EDT |
sbergman27 - Ick. Real life bites. You obviously have done the Linux evangelist part. It's equally obvious that Linux evangelism won't keep that client. It's possible to win when you're dealing with the specifics of how to deliver a solution. Whether or not to deliver a solution is nearly a sure loser, and rightly so. |
| grouch Apr 29, 2006 6:18 AM EDT |
>"Well, my client is in the business of providing fast and efficient service to their customers, and not in the business of worrying about what a company in a different industry requires to use their web service. Either Linux does what they want and provides them value or it doesn't." Linux is not the problem in that situation. The company that is breaking the platform-agnostic design of the web to provide services via the web is the problem. Every argument for standards and competition apply directly to this situation. It is the same as the situation involving incompatible fire hydrant couplings in the recent publication by David Wheeler. Railroads once had incompatible rail gauges which stifled the growth of the industry and all industries dependent upon rail transport. You can find similar transitory bottlenecks in advancement in many industries caused by either the lack of standards or the breaking of standards throughout history, including the transmission of electricity. "Fast and efficient" and deliberate restriction of competition by breaking standards just don't go together very well, or at least, not for long. >"As to Mapsco requiring IE, I've had the same conversation with the support departments of many providers of web based services. The argument generally boils down to: "According to our statistics, almost everyone uses IE. And of those that don't, the majority could easily do so to use our service". And the irritating thing about it is that they are right." Mapsco's FAQ regarding the use of "Netscape" hasn't been updated since 2003. That makes me wonder if they truly provide the best, most up-to-date mapping service. Those web service support departments providing the argument you relay are not right regarding IE. They are taking the route that may be easiest for them but which logically leads to a monopolized World Wide Web. Regardless of whether you are in a position to influence their decision to break standards, their actions are detrimental to everyone who uses the web, individuals and corporations alike. |
| dinotrac Apr 29, 2006 7:54 AM EDT |
grouch : What does Steve gain by Mapsco being it fault rather than Linux? The business is problem is that the client wants to deliver a particular solution. If he can't offer a linux-based solution, his only choice is to lose the business. As he points out, that's likely to result in even less Linux penetration most of the small-business consultants out there push Microsoft. The world ain't always black and white. The real danger lies in becoming such a fundamentalist that you overlook opportunities to advance your cause because you would rather stay out of the glass altogether than deal with the half-empty portion. |
| grouch Apr 29, 2006 12:08 PM EDT |
dinotrac: I think I acknowledged such problems in at least a couple of places. Sometimes an individual just has no way to compel good behavior or even to influence a client toward the client's best interests. Sometimes you just do the best you can with what you're dealt. My first comment in this thread was far too short and generalized, and apparently left sbergman27 thinking it was aimed at him. That's my fault. I stand by that comment, but did not intend it as some self-righteous attack upon sbergman27 for dealing with his client. |
| jdixon Apr 29, 2006 12:40 PM EDT |
> Mapsco, which they now require, doesn't support anything but IE and IE doesn't work very well under wine. (Even the latest version of X-Over foo-bars when you try to use "web applications" as opposed to casual browsing, with IE.) Agreed. For casual browsing, IE under Wine is acceptable, but there's no way it's up to handling Active X applications reliably. And, short of using VMWare or Win4Lin (which only complicates the situation, as you're still going to be running Windows) running a Windows machine is your only real option. All you can do is ask Mapco to support alternative browsers. Once they get enough requests, they'll start listening, but that will take a while. |
| dinotrac Apr 29, 2006 12:54 PM EDT |
grouch: Not to worry. It's the "You can only read what I type, you can't see me nodding my head in sympathy" nature of internet discussions. I'm relieved...other threads have revealed you to have actual reasoning capacity and sense of reality. |
| sbergman27 Apr 29, 2006 2:37 PM EDT |
A few general notes. I am fortunate enough to have been able to carve out a niche for myself implementing and supporting Linux desktop systems in that greater business world that lies beyond my parents' and grandparents' computers. So when I see "answers" that strike me as arguments that would work on my mother but not on the General Manager (usually involving the word Freedom with a captial F) I tend to call people on it. I've come to feel that the Linux community does a bit much clustering together on Linux sites all agreeing with each other for its own good. That said, I have not completely given up hope on retaining Linux on these machines. The situation, however, is a bit more complex than I have thus far described. What I have is two offices. One in Oklahoma City and the other in Dallas. The central Centos 4.3 server is in OKC. The workstations in question are in Dallas. They are currently a custom, light-weight install of Centos acting purely as X servers for the remote Gnome desktops. The connection is essentially 768kbit. To make performance acceptable, I am using Nomachine NX in the form of freenx on the server and the Nomachine client on the remote stations. Jdixon, VMWare is actually a possibility since I am already using that for other apps that are Windows only. The only problem is that I was informed yesterday that VMWare is running unacceptably slowly at the remote sites, although it's fine on the stations in OKC. (I know that this *can* happen. e.g. if you NX into a server and then VNC out from that to another machine, the result is unusably slow due to some interaction between the way NX and vnc work.) I have not been able to check this problem out yet, but it generates a cloud of uncertainty as to being able to use VMWare in this recipe. Further complicating the situation are these 2 items: 1. There is another web-site from which they will be getting binaries for the control systems of restaurant equipment. They download the patches some way and then hotsync them to a palm. They will then take the palm and hotsync it to the equipment to load the new binary. This is *all* I know about it at this point except that it works under Windows. This needs to be done on the same workstation that needs the Mapsco. 2. The client went out and bought an HP 5610 scanner/printer and also wants this to be installed on that station. They need to be able to scan documents and email them to techs. Fortunately, they happened to select a multifunction that is well supported by the HP opensource drivers. (Thank heaven for small miracles.) CentOS 4.3 does not support it, but FC4+ does. This is also to be attached to the same workstation. Obviously, a Windows box would do all of this since the makers of all the pieces primarily target Windows. I'd be running the windows NX client on it to keep them on the Linux server for most stuff. Now as to whether I could make Linux do all this, I don't know. But the challenges are many and a bit daunting to me. Perhaps a better question is whether I can make Linux do all this *well*, or would I be pounding a round peg into a square hole, making Linux look bad in the end? Part of the problem is lack of complete info; I just found out about all this yesterday. I would start off with an FC5 workstation. It would be a complete install so that it could run a local desktop. And it would have NX client to remote in to OKC for the regular desktop work. Essentially, the problems fall into 2 categories. "Linux vs Windows / Firefox vs IE". And "Local desktop vs running everything over the 768kbit pipe". Plus, of course, with Windows it's all supported, whereas under Linux, I'm on my own. And plus, of course, I can't ethically bill for all the time that will be involved beyond what I would estimate it would take under Windows, but I'm used to that. |
| grouch Apr 29, 2006 2:39 PM EDT |
dinotrac: Blasphemy! Rumors and propaganda! Don't think I can't see through your evil plot to get Toadie and Spinslikeatop elected! The mighty lynx shall be your downfall. I'll get you for trying to ruin my hard-won reputation. And your little dog, too. It may be a public duty for citizens to protest when FEMA only allows IE connections in a disaster area but most of the time with companies you can only argue dollars and cents. I'm not sure, but I don't think there is any requirement of accessibility for U.S. websites like there is in the UK. Of course, their requirements don't carry a lot of weight because they don't enforce them. Sometimes when I make contact with reality, I email businesses which lose my business due to IE/ActiveX requirements. (Other times I just send in squads of rampaging, rabid Ninja snails to torment them). |
| dinotrac Apr 29, 2006 3:38 PM EDT |
grouch: Please leave my little dog out of this. Poor Jeffry. He's actually a bit of a moose for a Chihuahua, weighing in at nearly 7 pounds. Unfortunately, the other household animals are not Chihuahuas. He had sort of come to terms with the cats, who no longer beat him up for the sport of it. However, my daughter recently moved back home until she can get a new apartment, and she brought her Pomeranian with her. Unlike Jeffry, who is properly short-haired and tautly muscled -- as macho as you can get at 7 pounds -- the Pom is all fluffy and frou-frou looking. Unfortunately, he is also a 9 pound monster who torments Jeffry. So, really, lay off the little dog. He's got enough to worry about right now. |
| sbergman27 Apr 29, 2006 4:11 PM EDT |
> Unlike Jeffry, who is properly short-haired and tautly muscled -- as macho as you can get at 7 pounds -- the Pom is all fluffy and frou-frou looking. Unfortunately, he is also a 9 pound monster who torments Jeffry. Kinda hard to blame him, though. It must be a rare opportunity (for a Pom). |
| grouch Apr 29, 2006 4:54 PM EDT |
You're both killing me. I had to wipe my eyes to finish the animal tale, then again at the vision of an opportunistic bully Pomeranian. |
| dinotrac Apr 29, 2006 5:34 PM EDT |
> then again at the vision of an opportunistic bully Pomeranian. Former Microsoft employee, I believe. |
| jdixon Apr 29, 2006 5:37 PM EDT |
> And "Local desktop vs running everything over the 768kbit pipe". 768 kbit pipe. Eck. Don't try it. Even with a full T1 running apps over the line is iffy. Half that is really bad. Now if you're just talking remote desktop, then it's maybe doable, but I'd still go the local desktop route. |
| sbergman27 Apr 29, 2006 6:46 PM EDT |
Jdixon, It sounds like you have not used NX. I would encourage you to try it out. The server side is OSS. The client is still proprietary but free as in beer. A free kde client is in the works, though. A full remote desktop can run with acceptable speed over a 56k modem. It's pretty amazing. Far, far better than VNC. And it relies heavily on ssh, so authentication is a combination of key based + password based and everything runs over an ssh tunnel automatically. Sliced bread has nothing on NX. ;-) Since my last post, I have had a chance to bring up a session to the server in question and run mapsco in IE via VMWare and it's a bit sluggish but still pretty usable. It's good enough that I could present it as a solution. That leaves the scanner and the palm sync thingie. The scanner is supposed to be fully supported. I don't have it here yet, though. Unfortunately I am totally unfamiliar with SANE (the software, not the mental condition) and whatever front ends it has. I hope they are good. As to the palm bit. The frymaster site, while being totally flash based, is actually pretty good with firefox compatibility. They are one of the rare sites that I have made specific problem reports to and they come back in a timely manner and say "Oh, we're so sorry about the problem with firefox. We're working on it". And then, wonder of wonders, they actually fix it. So I think there is a good chance that I'll be able to nab the binaries with FF. It will then be up to evolution, I guess, to handle the hot syncing. Hopefully, its just does the generic file transfer conduit or whatever it's called. Unfortunately, not being an organized person, I am not really familiar with syncing to/from Evolution. The good news is that in a rare fit of trying to get organized, I did buy a palm a while back. So I have something to test with. Now, if I could only remember what I did with the hotsync cradle... So I might just pull this off. And if I can't come up with a Linux solution that I can present and be proud of, I always have the Borg option to fall back on, I guess. |
| grouch Apr 29, 2006 8:02 PM EDT |
>"1. There is another web-site from which they will be getting binaries for the control systems of restaurant equipment." I don't know why, but this caused me to remember the DeLaval Linux-powered voluntary milking machine. http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8308307720.html Maybe a restaurant could be devised along the same lines. I can just see citizens wandering into the stainless steel stalls and sensors leaping out to analyze what parts of the nutrition pyramid need to be stuffed into them to make good, healthy consumers. |
| jdixon Apr 30, 2006 6:05 AM EDT |
> It sounds like you have not used NX. No, I haven't played with it. The non-open source client has kept me away from it when VNC is usable for the things I've needed to do. > . A full remote desktop can run with acceptable speed over a 56k modem. When the kde client get usable, I'll take a look. |
| grouch Apr 30, 2006 7:18 AM EDT |
>"Unfortunately I am totally unfamiliar with SANE (the software, not the mental condition) and whatever front ends it has. I hope they are good." Xsane (http://xsane.org) is usually much easier for users while sane's command line tools (such as scanimage) are scriptable for admins' use. Xsane will work on any MS Windows boxes you have to set up, also. You might want to go through the "Preferences" and "Window" menu before turning them loose with it. Xsane's autoadjust button for gamma, brightness and contrast gets it good enough for almost all images, for me. The last little office I set up, they only used the "Copier" mode and ignored all other options. They used it with a cheap HP PSC 1210 (bought by the PHB in spite of recommendation to wait for confirmation that it was supported). It worked well for them. Another office used Xsane with an old HP OfficeJet 500 and a Samsung mono laser printer. They did very little scanning compared to the amount of printing. By the time the OJ 500 wore out, they determined that a dedicated fax/copier would suit them better. I haven't set anyone up with Xsane who needed its "email" mode or even used scanning extensively. Hope it works well for your situation. |
| sbergman27 Apr 30, 2006 11:14 AM EDT |
> I haven't set anyone up with Xsane who needed its "email" mode Email mode?! Email mode?! I hadn't dared to hope for such a thing. I went by and picked up the equipment today. Fedora Core 5 installed without a hitch. The printer/scanner installed without a hitch and "just worked". xsane is part of the default desktop install. Within a few minutes I had an image scanned and emailed to myself. I dug out my old Palm VII and serial print cradle. pilot-link seems to be working OK. I had some problems at first but they seem to have spontaneously resolved. I would think that if anything, a modern usb cradle would work better than the crufty old serial one. By God, this plan might just work. I hope Frymaster doesn't torpedo me by having some special proprietary Windows only way of getting the binary from their web site to the palm. > bought by the PHB in spite of recommendation to wait for confirmation that it was supported Have you been stealing my clients?! (This sounds just like some of them.) And then, if it doesn't work, or you have difficulty with it, you get the inevitable question: "Is it not working because we're using Linux?" at which point I always have to resist the urge to reach out for a sharp object or breakable. |
| dinotrac Apr 30, 2006 11:56 AM EDT |
Steve -- I know this is the wrong place...but you seem to possess some wizardry that I seriously lack.... I'm trying to set up a plain ol' (ie - not wireless) Palm to use sync4j -- which requires connections to the internet. The Palm seems set up to dial out through a modem, but it's not clear how to hook it up into a network via its usb cable do the dhcp thing. I just have to believe that either a) there is a tool out there for this, or b) I am complete clamhead missing something that would be obvious to anyone with an IQ greater than day-old dryer lint. |
| grouch Apr 30, 2006 12:05 PM EDT |
Ha! It sounds like we _have_ talked to the same people. One PHB wanted to be very helpful and kept showing me trade journal ads for software he thought would be useful. In every case I was able to answer, "We have the equivalent functions already." It still took him a few months to go back to his specialty and stop trying to handle the software. Bless 'em, they have to deal with so many varied problems they sometimes get to thinking they're the best equipped to handle all problems. If Frymaster has an existing MS Windows-only way of transferring the binary, maybe they could also provide a simple link to the file so you could pull it instead of them pushing it? |
| jdixon Apr 30, 2006 2:53 PM EDT |
Dino: > a) there is a tool out there for this, > or > b) I am complete clamhead missing something that would be obvious to anyone with an IQ greater than day-old dryer lint. Nah, it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. :( I've setup a few Palms under Windows, and in the Windows world, the type of connection is normally set up in the Palm software on the Windows side, not in the handheld itself. |
| dinotrac Apr 30, 2006 3:38 PM EDT |
jdixon - Ah!! Crap. Sounds like I need to sweet-talk my wife out of her notebook for a bit just to get a connection going and understand what works..... |
| sbergman27 Apr 30, 2006 3:40 PM EDT |
So maybe something like this might help? http://atulchitnis.net/writings/palm-ppp.php |
| dinotrac Apr 30, 2006 3:50 PM EDT |
Steve -- (To sound of nose scraping floor) I am not worthy! I am not worthy! Thanks. |
| dinotrac Apr 30, 2006 4:11 PM EDT |
Steve - PS -- Works. Yahoo!!! (Or Google, as the case may be!!) |
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