This is a HOWTO on creating fake allies
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| wind0wsr3fund Aug 01, 2006 8:22 AM EDT |
"The Linux/Free/Open Source world is changing, and such is the price of coming closer to "world domination." The more people turn to FOSS, the more diverse the user- and developer-base is going to be." Please stop using the term "FOSS". By grouping the 2 movements you only serve to confuse the very newcomers you appear to be reaching out to. It's like adding water to a mix in order to increase volume. While you may end up filling the pot, the end result is left weaker. "This, like all great grassroots movements, mixes the bitter with the sweet. It's like when the Wrong People discover your favorite great, but not well-known, band. Suddenly all of these uninformed trendwits are listening to it, clogging their shows, talking at all the wrong times, saying all the wrong things, and dancing when they should be listening reverently." Yes, this happens but it doesn't mean that we should blindly accept ignorance. Instead, we should provide insight and guidance based off our knowledge and experience. "Or, it's like when the black monkeys gang up on the brown monkey- it's different! It's wrong! It's a threat! It doesn't have a geekbeard or parrot the correct buzzphrases! Beat it with sticks!" A person who doesn't understand why the movement exists in the first place can not be considered as an ally. Your "numbers for the sake of numbers" approach may look good on pie charts but when it comes to defending the community against those who seek to destroy free software, these people will be at best, unreliable. "More Points of Entry = More Better" Only when those entrants wind up at the same destination. "Newcomers to FOSS sometimes get beat up pretty good." This statement has nothing to do with Free Software. All newcomers face hurdles and evaluation when they enter into a foreign community. Did you ask DMV why they were "beating you up" when they forced you to take both a written exam and a driving test as you attempted to join the driving community? Did you ask your school why they were "beating on you" when you took your acceptance exams? How about your last job interview? The free software community has a bar of entry. That bar of entry is best described as understanding, resolve, and appreciation. "They get criticized for running FOSS apps on Windows. They get criticized for using Linspire, Xandros, Crossover Office, and other Impure Linux Borkenings." All of these activities suggest a lack of understanding, resolve, and appreciation. A subscriber to the goals of the free software movement would recognize the contradiction in each of these solutions and avoid them. "They get jumped on for asking noob questions." Again, this statement has nothing to do with free software and can be applied to any newcomer entering any community. http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html "They get jumped on for not understanding that "Free as in Freedom" means "as dictated and overseen by the Meddling Judgmental Friars of Freedom."" Let me try again......... "Free as in Freedom" means "Free as in freedoms 0-3". It's REALLY not that hard. Here's the link so you can read up on it. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html I'm not going to respond to the rest of the post since it's just more of the same watered down recipe. Instead, I'll end with a nice quote that summarizes why sugarcoating and avoiding the tough issues is a waste of everybody's time. "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." |
| tuxchick2 Aug 01, 2006 8:24 AM EDT |
Pay attention to a troll and you pay for it for six lifetimes. |
| wind0wsr3fund Aug 01, 2006 8:32 AM EDT |
Notice how quickly tuxgroupie turns things into a bash session? Why so defensive? |
| dinotrac Aug 01, 2006 8:37 AM EDT |
tc - Yup. The thing I don't understand is this: Most pictures I've seen that claimed to portray trolls, showed them to have eyes and ears. |
| jdixon Aug 01, 2006 8:52 AM EDT |
wind0wsr3fund: > you have much to learn tuxgroupie We all have much to learn. You would do well to apply that principle to your own actions. It has been explained to you repeatedly that attacking those who share your ideals but not your methods is counter-productive. You refuse to listen. I'm beginning to agree with Dino. |
| wind0wsr3fund Aug 01, 2006 8:56 AM EDT |
oh give me a break jdixon. |
| jdixon Aug 01, 2006 8:57 AM EDT |
> oh give me a break jdixon. We've all done so, repeatedly. If it's some other type of break you want, I'm sure one of us can supply a large enough hammer. |
| wind0wsr3fund Aug 01, 2006 8:59 AM EDT |
tuxgroupie's dangerous approach has been analyzed and countered point by point and the best you trolls can do is cry "oh stop it, stop showing us how ignorant we are". I feel sorry for ya. Each of you has the opportunity to learn where your approach is failing and yet, you bond together like a group of highschool kids in a click. |
| dinotrac Aug 01, 2006 9:06 AM EDT |
jdixon -- Now, now, be nice. At least his post to start off this thread had some points crouching behind the self-importance. He doesn't understand the FOSS acronym for what it is, a term that encompassing Free and Open Source software for what they are: the same thing. The concern that new people will find alternating references to free/open source software confusing is legitimate. However, old w completely misses the point: The world talks that way. FOSS recognizes that reality. How much simpler to make the point -- "Hey, what, exactly, does FOSS stand for?" "Free and Open Source Software. They're two different names for the same thing, so I just call them FOSS." And gosh!!! You've got a chance for a history lesson and everything. That is, if, unlike W, you actually care about free software. |
| SFN Aug 01, 2006 9:32 AM EDT |
Earlier today I stated that I was beginning to doubt his sincerity. The beginning is over. He's not trying to help free software. He's trying to discredit those who use it as psychotic zealots by pretending to be one of them. |
| dinotrac Aug 01, 2006 9:34 AM EDT |
SFN - Bingo!! |
| jimf Aug 01, 2006 10:16 AM EDT |
I repeat: wind0wsr3fund's rants are one of the most effective means of chasing potential new users away from Linux that I've seen to date. He couldn't so a better job if he were an agent of Microsoft. So is he? |
| sbergman27 Aug 01, 2006 10:48 AM EDT |
So, how much *do* they pay you, Wind0wsr3fund? And do they have any openings? Not interested, of course! Just curious. (Please email privately with the details.) |
| dek Aug 01, 2006 11:16 AM EDT |
dino: "That is, if, unlike W, you actually care about free software." My smart alec side has a question, "Which W?" Seriously, W's rants are analogous to a black - white approach in a diverse and multicolored world. In other words, severe colorblindness is unaware of the nuances of other colors and is only peripherally aware that these colors exist through other peoples' feedback. Now we have the extreme case where other people telling him is not enough. He persists in trying to shape the world in his own perception of black and white. That is, if he isn't indeed a M$ funded troll. Don K. |
| jimf Aug 01, 2006 11:20 AM EDT |
> Seriously, W's rants are analogous to a black - white approach in a diverse and multicolored world. In other words, severe colorblindness is unaware of the nuances of other colors and is only peripherally aware that these colors exist through other peoples' feedback. That's probably a very accurate analogy, but the result is still the same... He couldn't so a better job if he were an agent of Microsoft. |
| wind0wsr3fund Aug 01, 2006 1:40 PM EDT |
jimf, Your desperate attempts to discredit my convictions are laughable. Typical of an open source person who'd rather blame Microsoft (as if they're the only enemy) rather than taking a step back and seeing tuxgroupie's post for the meaningless fluff it is. It is quite obvious to me that you are incapable of seeing things from beyond your little "open source is fun and convenient" mentality. That said, my advice would be to go read the Sunday comics or something instead of choosing to participate in a thread that is clearly over your head. |
| jimf Aug 01, 2006 2:40 PM EDT |
Rave on w3r... |
| grouch Aug 01, 2006 2:46 PM EDT |
wind0wsr3fund: You consistently attempt to belittle and berate individual persons instead of dealing with their ideas and arguments. You consistently exhibit a complete lack of tolerance, compassion or even consideration in your consistently inflammatory diatribes. It appears to me that your purpose is to disrupt discussions and, possibly, to discourage from these discussions those persons who do not wish to suffer ad hominem attacks for presenting their views. |
| Sander_Marechal Aug 01, 2006 2:49 PM EDT |
Hehehe :-) Had I been an admin on this site then the BOFH in me would long ago have taken a stab at resolving this issue. <clickety> |
| wind0wsr3fund Aug 01, 2006 3:19 PM EDT |
grouch, You're mistaken on all counts. I'm here to help. |
| Libervis Aug 01, 2006 3:45 PM EDT |
Behind wind0wsr3fund's post, however trollish you may think it is, lie some good points and suggestions. I'll say it again. I don't agree with his style and tactics, but I agree with alot of his points. I see the term FOSS as suitable only when speaking of the entirety of the community consisted of people with both Open Source views and Free Software views. The software under both names may be same, but those views differ. When I talk about this software though as well as my own views I will call it "Free Software" because that term represents my views. TuxChick wrote: Quoting:"They get jumped on for not understanding that "Free as in Freedom" means "as dictated and overseen by the Meddling Judgmental Friars of Freedom."" I would pretty much agree to the response wind0wsr3fund gave to this. It's not that "Free as in Freedom" means "as dictated and overseen by the Meddling Judgemental Friars of Freedom", but simply.. four freedoms. Noone is dictating them. These freedoms are discovered and its value is being taught. I can extract the whole point of the article though and at the core I can definitely agree with it. We should not jump on newbies expecting them to automatically be on our own level of understanding. We should go step by step. It's a process. This does not mean blindly accepting ignorance or anything like that. It means employing a tactic that newbies will respond to well, which ultimately yields results: new allies to freedom. I consider myself an ideological pragmatic. Is that weird? I wouldn't think so. It's quite simple at the core of it. While I prioritize the ideal of freedom over practical values, I employ pragmatic strategies where they don't go against my higher ideal. Want example of this tactic? Well, first get a newbie interested in anything that is Free Software by showing them the power and benefits that this Free Software has. In essence, first show them the product of freedom, impress them, and then once they are impressed tell them "you see, all of this is so good as it is because there is freedom, see how this freedom is important and valuable". So as I introduce them to the products created in freedom and because of freedom impressing them with these products own superiority, I am gradually letting them know (and even more reach the conclusion themselves) that the core cause for which this software is superior is freedom. That's what I personally call employing pragmacy in spreading the ideal. :) Maybe wind0wsr3fund and anyone else who wants to advocate Free Software could consider this approach. Thank |
| jdixon Aug 01, 2006 4:00 PM EDT |
Libervis: > I'll say it again. I don't agree with his style and tactics, but I agree with alot of his points. That's the problem. We all agree with his points. Now, why don't you try convincing HIM of that. He seems to think that because we disagree with his methods, we're worse than those who disagree with is ideals. And he makes that point publicly, repeatedly, and personally. |
| dinotrac Aug 01, 2006 4:08 PM EDT |
jdixon - >We all agree with his points. I'm not at all sure that's true. I can see that all of the regular posters here believe strongly in free software. Most have put their beliefs to the test, using it at home, using it at work, proposing it as solutions for many problems. W, though, says that we don't get it. As I have seen enough to indicate that most people here understand free software quite well, he must be talking about something else altogether. Hence, I don't know that I agree with much of anything he says because he claims to believe in free software, but belittles people who believe in free software. |
| Libervis Aug 01, 2006 4:16 PM EDT |
jdixon:Quoting:Now, why don't you try convincing HIM of that. I'm trying to. We were talking about it just today on libervis IRC channel.. |
| grouch Aug 01, 2006 4:17 PM EDT |
Libervis: In this thread alone -- "tuxgroupie", "you trolls", "group of highschool kids in a click [sic]", "It is quite obvious to me that you are incapable of seeing things from beyond your little "open source is fun and convenient" mentality. That said, my advice would be to go read the Sunday comics or something instead of choosing to participate in a thread that is clearly over your head." Those are attacks on persons, not ideals, opinions, facts, nor philosophy. It is bludgeoning, not debating or informing. I'm done with this thread and the others by that one. |
| tuxchick2 Aug 01, 2006 4:28 PM EDT |
"Quoted:
"They get jumped on for not understanding that "Free as in Freedom" means "as dictated and overseen by the Meddling Judgmental Friars of Freedom."" I would pretty much agree to the response wind0wsr3fund gave to this. It's not that "Free as in Freedom" means "as dictated and overseen by the Meddling Judgemental Friars of Freedom", but simply.. four freedoms. Noone is dictating them. These freedoms are discovered and its value is being taught." **sigh** People who do not understand sarcasm should refrain from commenting on it. People who think windozerefund is anything but a deliberate troll are mistaken. |
| jdixon Aug 01, 2006 4:31 PM EDT |
Libervis: > I'm trying to. We were talking about it just today on libervis IRC channel. I wish you the best of luck. I'm afraid you're going to need it. Wind0wsr3fund really needs to understand that we're not the enemy here, and he should stop treating us as if we were. Dino: > I'm not at all sure that's true. I'm not certain it's true either, but I prefer to give the benefit of a doubt as long as possible. Call me a hopeless idealist if you wish. :) |
| Libervis Aug 01, 2006 4:32 PM EDT |
Yeah grouch.. what you quoted is part of the style I don't like... Btw, here's something that goes in line with pragmatic idealism I talked about earlier here: "If you want to accomplish something in the world, idealism is not enough--you need to choose a method that works to achieve the goal. In other words, you need to be ``pragmatic.'' " These words come from Richard Stallman himself. Imagine that. :) And people sometimes think that FSF/GNU/RMS are all about ideals and no acknowledgement of real world or any sort of pragmacy. I even heard people saying that pragmacy and ideology are mutualy exclusive. That's so far from the truth. If you simply set your priorities and goals straight, both pragmacy and ideals have a rightful place and play a role. EDIT: The quote above is from here: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/pragmatic.html |
| Libervis Aug 01, 2006 4:34 PM EDT |
tuxchick2, noted. It probably sounds worse out of context. I didn't originally pick that up as anything negative when I was reading your article, but as a quote responded to by windowsrefund, it sounded differently.. |
| jimf Aug 01, 2006 4:37 PM EDT |
> W, though, says that we don't get it. As I have seen enough to indicate that most people here understand free software quite well, he must be talking about something else altogether. I agree, and I'm not sure what he's saying anymore. He claims it's about the GPL, he claims it's not about freedom (?). The spiel is nonsensical. I begin think it's about his ego (or lack there of)...A need for attention? In any case, I stopped taking him seriously some time ago. |
| dcparris Aug 01, 2006 5:27 PM EDT |
Thanks to grouch for collecting these for me: "tuxgroupie", "you trolls", "group of highschool kids in a click [sic]", "It is quite obvious to me that you are incapable of seeing things from beyond your little "open source is fun and convenient" mentality. That said, my advice would be to go read the Sunday comics or something instead of choosing to participate in a thread that is clearly over your head." Such statements, along with "You really are an idiot..." (from http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/23260/), could be considered abusive, I believe. Just let this stand as a friendly reminder that personal attacks are inappropriate here. I am willing to let people settle disputes and so on, but we see here a clear pattern of personal attacks. Regardless of the source, they are wrong. I prefer freedom of speech, but freedom of speech means respecting others. If you can't do that, you won't find yourself welcome on LXer's forums. In fact, you might just find yourself locked out. Those are the possible consequences. So please just be respectful of others. I really hate playing the "get tough" card. Thanks, Don |
| wind0wsr3fund Aug 01, 2006 8:22 PM EDT |
dcparris, Well it wouldn't be the first time my account was disabled. Or did you think that I chose the spelling of my nick to be l33t? In any case, you might want to review the thread to see who ran their mouth first (hint: /me points to tuxgroupie). My original post was informative, insightful, and void of any personal attacks. In fact, I challenge anyone on this board to quote any section of my original post and show where this claim falls short. In response, someone jumps out of the bushes and refers to me as troll?!? A little hairy guy that lives under a bridge?!?. I will NOT stand by and be degraded. Nor will I stand by and have my views that are both generous and honorable attacked by viewpoints born out of laziness and greed. Do whatever makes you happy....... |
| dcparris Aug 01, 2006 9:33 PM EDT |
Just know that the next personal attack - regardless of the source (as I said above) - will be addressed, one way or another. Period. |
| wind0wsr3fund Aug 01, 2006 9:45 PM EDT |
As I've already said, if you're in a scolding mood, you need to direct it to someone better suited. You still haven't addressed the challenge I issued. If you can't find something offensive in my original post, I expect a public apology. |
| dcparris Aug 01, 2006 9:49 PM EDT |
My post is directed at anyone who posts the next personal attack. That is why it says, "regardless of the source". This is the end of this thread. If you have a problem, please feel free to take it up with Dave. That would be dave at lxer dot com. |
| dcparris Aug 01, 2006 9:57 PM EDT |
Edit: Previous Post Deleted: Thread Closed |
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