Enough with the proprietary crap already
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 9:01 AM EDT |
I'm tired of seeing this site used to push non-free wares onto the GNU/Linux community! |
| dcparris Nov 09, 2006 9:11 AM EDT |
We publish news, not propaganda. So it really sounds like you have a choice to make. You're welcome to stay, but I'll understand if you choose to go elsewhere. Cheers! |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 9:30 AM EDT |
By publishing irrelevant news, you are in fact publishing propaganda. Wake up! As for me going somewhere (on the Internet), this has nothing to do with my travel habits or schedule. It has to do with LXer taking responsibility for what it publishes and respecting the community it serves. Now of course, we've been though this before (many times) and I expect nothing but the usually gang of LXer droids to jump on the "he's a zealot!" bandwagon in an effort to distract from the issue I've raised. That doesn't mean that I will not continue to identify the issue of LXer's attempts to manipulate the Free Software Community with this trash. |
| tuxchick Nov 09, 2006 9:39 AM EDT |
Zealot != lunatic. So I wouldn't say 'zealot'. |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 9:41 AM EDT |
ahhh... the first arrives. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 9:43 AM EDT |
wind0wsr3fund: > That doesn't mean that I will not continue to identify the issue of LXer's attempts to manipulate the Free Software Community with this trash. That's OK, but please be polite about it. A simple "this article is about non-free software and should be avoided" should be sufficient. Being rude accomplishes nothing, except possibly getting you banned. Your numerous obnoxious posts of this type in the past have given LXer more than enough reason to delete your account. They've been far more patient that I would have been in their place. |
| dinotrac Nov 09, 2006 9:48 AM EDT |
jdixon - I disagree. Being rude alerts readers as to your credibility. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 10:05 AM EDT |
> I disagree. Being rude alerts readers as to your credibility. Dino. You are correct. I obviously misstated. |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 10:06 AM EDT |
jdixon, Given the amount of attention I've given to this issue over the past 6 months, you're asking for quite a bit. I shouldn't have to nag you guys and throw hints over and over to see this level of responsibility put in place. I'm tired of this already and it's high time someone over there pays attention to this issue. To put it simply, LXer.com needs to stop publishing stories that in one way or another promote the concept of using, developing, or advocating non-free software. Of course, I understand that every once in awhile, a particular story might be hard to categorize as being inappropriate. In those cases, editors should take the extra 3 seconds to somehow "tag" the article so the end users can easily see that the software being discussed is freedom-restricting. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 10:17 AM EDT |
> To put it simply, LXer.com needs to stop publishing stories that in one way or another promote the concept of using, developing, or advocating non-free software. Why? Because you say so? LXer's management and editors obviously disagree with you. > In those cases, editors should take the extra 3 seconds to somehow "tag" the article so the end users can easily see that the software being discussed is freedom-restricting. As the advocate for this position, isn't that your responsibility? |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 10:20 AM EDT |
Are you nuts!?! Since when am I responsible for LXer's content? Someone needs to wake up the editor and tell him to do his job. Simple. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 10:24 AM EDT |
> Are you nuts!?! Since when am I responsible for LXer's content? Someone needs to wake up the editor and tell him to do his job. Simple. By trying to dictate to LXer what they publish and how, you're claiming the authority to determine their content. Doesn't that make you responsible for it too? The editors think they are doing their job. You're the one who disagrees. |
| SFN Nov 09, 2006 10:27 AM EDT |
Again, you are pushing censorship. They don't do that here. They report stories and we (sadly, that includes you) can comment on them. You would think that someone who claims to promote Free Software would understand the inherent problems in promoting censorship. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 10:40 AM EDT |
Oh, and in reference to the "Are you nuts!?!" question. It's been debated. I don't think anyone has ever reached a firm conclusion. |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 10:40 AM EDT |
The editors are CLEARLY pushing non-free software onto the GNU/Linux community via this channel. The only questions are: 1. Why are they doing it? 2. Why is nobody speaking up about it except me? Editors???????????? |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 10:47 AM EDT |
SFN, Stop trying to confuse the issue by labeling my efforts as censorship. If readers want to know about freedom restricting software, they can go to millions of websites to retrieve that info. LXer should be serving the Free Software Community, period. What you'd love to dub as censorship is simply my annoyance at this deliberate attack on the consciousness and awareness of our community. Of course, I realize that those of us who are neither conscious nor aware will not probably not see the attack but that doesn't mean I have to lower my standards. |
| dinotrac Nov 09, 2006 11:03 AM EDT |
w3f - Perhaps you missed this little bit from the top: Linux News The world is talking about GNU/Linux and Free/Open Source Software Seems to me that covers more than just free software. You, of course, are free to wish the site were more restrictive and to share your views. You have already made your own site devoted to free software only, so maybe there isn't any need... |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 11:03 AM EDT |
> LXer should be serving the Free Software Community, period. If they only serve the Free Software Community, they never grow their readership. There are also those who, for whatever reason, choose to run proprietary programs on their otherwise free systems. LXer may want to serve them too. As for VMWare, if one is forced to use a proprietary OS because of work, VMWare lets you either run a virtual Linux machine too ( possibly without the PHB's even knowing about it), or run it in a virtual machine on your Linux box. |
| Teron Nov 09, 2006 11:15 AM EDT |
That's your position. The LXer staff has another. At least some of them usually add a comment to the lead saying that the article deals with non-free software. If that's not enough for you, START YOUR OWN NEWSSITE. YOU ARE WHOLLY WITHIN YOUR RIGHTS TO DO SO. AS ARE THE LXER STAFF TO KEEP PUBLISHING WHAT THEY WANT WITHOUT BEING CONSTANTLY TOLD TO CHANGE THEIR CHOSEN EDITORIAL LINE. Sorry for the caps, but I needed to vent. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 11:22 AM EDT |
> START YOUR OWN NEWSSITE. To be fair, as Dino noted, he has his own site. |
| nalf38 Nov 09, 2006 11:28 AM EDT |
We read articles about VMWare because there is no real free-as-in-speech equivalent yet. Unfortunately some of us have to run winblows or other proprietary OS on occasion and as much as I would rather not taint my machine, VMWare allows me keep Linux as my primary desktop. So in a roundabout sense VMWare promotes open source even though it's only a free-as-in-beer product. If you know of a free-as-in-speech product that offers the same combination of functionality/speed as VMWare, speak up. Neither Xen or Qemu are there yet, IMHO. |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 12:12 PM EDT |
nalf38, Do some research. VMware has NOTHING on Xen. Your tired excuses can be applied to any application that people are just to lazy to research. Spare me. Jdixon, I don't give a flying $@#$!@ if LXer grows their readership but I thank you for providing further proof that LXer is simply riding the "Linux/Open Source" bandwagon and exploiting whatever "community" might exist here. I couldn't agree more! It's been obvious to me for some time now that LXer has no real appreciation of what the FSF has been trying to do for more than a decade and could care less about freedoms 0-3. Judging from the opinions of most the regulars here, I'd say LXer has been VERY successful in its attempts to water down the message of the Free Software movement. In fact, I see quite a few regulars on this very thread. These are the droids that think Open Source == Free Software despite the countless explanations they've been given, who think that non-free software can coexist with "FOSS" despite the obvious fact that those who promote non-free NEED to kill alternatives in order to build marketshare and please stock holders at the end of the day. I could go on and on but from what I've seen, I've been far too generous already. Unfortunatley, the average LXer member's head is already pounding from this much insight. Oh I know, let's go check out some new flash websites and maybe install a few windows games via WINE. That'll make us all feal better and provide plenty of distraction so we don't have to think about the important issues. |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 12:18 PM EDT |
oh and nalf38, "Unfortunately some of us have to run winblows..." Do you actually believe that your lack of conviction regarding software freedom is somehow excusable just because you use the term "winblows"? Actions speak so much louder than words. |
| nalf38 Nov 09, 2006 12:20 PM EDT |
Wow. Please allow me to be the first to insert profanity into this page. You're an asshole. Go somewhere else. I've done the research, and I stand by the point I made. Even if you had a point, I think most of us are done listening. Please go away. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 12:30 PM EDT |
> VMware has NOTHING on Xen. Well, as I stated recently in another thread, bull. VMWare is so much more a complete product then Xen that it's not funny. The mere fact that you can say that shows how little you know about the subject. > These are the droids that think Open Source == Free Software despite the countless explanations they've been given Almost all the "regulars" you speak of know the difference quite well. And almost all of us support Free software over open source. > who think that non-free software can coexist with "FOSS" despite the obvious fact that those who promote non-free NEED to kill alternatives in order to build marketshare and please stock holders at the end of the day. Not all companies are Microsoft. Did you check out the recently covered mygamecompany.com? They look like a perfect example of a company serving their customer's needs which can coexist quite well with Free software. Spiderweb software would be another such. And, finally, there's VMWare, which seems to have managed to work quite will with Linux throughout it's entire existence. > I could go on and on... And will if the past is any indication. > Unfortunatley, the average LXer member's head is already pounding from this much insight. Believe me, it's not insight it's pounding from. > Oh I know, let's go check out some new flash websites and maybe install a few windows games via WINE. Guilty as charged, but then you already know I'm a lost cause, from our previous conversations. |
| SFN Nov 09, 2006 12:33 PM EDT |
Quoting:Stop trying to confuse the issue by labeling my efforts as censorship. Do you actually know what censorship is? |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 12:45 PM EDT |
"Guilty as charged, but then you already know I'm a lost cause, from our previous conversations." So much so that I'm not even going to bother responding to your dribble. |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 12:49 PM EDT |
SFN, Do you know what manipulation is? I'm betting you do and are quite good at it. Despite my clear explanation of my charges against LXer, you continue to try to manipulate its readership by sticking to the term "censorship" in an attempt to distract from the points I've mentioned. Clever perhaps but it will only work on the weak minded. My charges stand. |
| SFN Nov 09, 2006 12:54 PM EDT |
Wow. Whether or not you feel you are right, what you are trying to get the editors to do here IS censorship. Grab a dictionary and check it out for yourself. |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 1:43 PM EDT |
SFN, Are you really that dense? The system I recommended above is not censorship but rather a set of standards that can and should be used to merely keep things in perspective. Furthermore, it provides a means to accurately identify subjects that fall into a gray area (as things often do). All respectable publications have some sort of checks and balances to ensure that only relevant material is covered. Why the hell should LXer, a publication that serves the Free Software community be any different? I suspect the reason you and others are so opposed to this raising of the bar in terms of quality control is deeply rooted in your own lack of understanding and appreciation for the goals of the Free Software Movement. If that's the case, at least have the integrity to admit it. How dare you attack me for holding LXer to the same standard I would for any publication that exists for the sole purpose of serving a community. As for censorship, you might want to take another look at the issue yourself. Do you control what stories are published on LXer.com and which are not? No, I didn't think so. So then...... one could easily, by your definition, claim that LXer.com is already practicing censorship. Of course, this is silly but I felt the need to point out how weak your argument really is. The thing to realize is that censorship is subjective at best. Again, LXer's sole meaning in life is to SERVE the Free Software Community. That said, my suggestion that the staff refrain from publishing off topic material is not censorship at all. It is merely productive and logical. Oh I realize that you and yours might end up losing a 1 stop shop for all your Open Source/Vista/FUD/DRM news but I'm sure you'd be able to fill the *gaps* if you put more than 30 seconds into it. |
| tuxchick Nov 09, 2006 1:46 PM EDT |
It's the strangest phenomenon...I keep having flashbacks to this:
http://www.thecourier.com/manifest.htm |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 1:49 PM EDT |
tuxgroupie, you're such a loser |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 1:58 PM EDT |
> That said, my suggestion that the staff refrain from publishing off topic material is not censorship at all. If you were making suggestions, instead of demands, that might be true. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 09, 2006 2:04 PM EDT |
I am a member of the FSF and highly value Free Software. More than that, I value open standards on data; proprietary or not, the data should be independent of the program. I am not so in love with Free Software, however, that I am totally opposed to it, so long as the data is not tied to it. Xen, while it has much promise, is not yet in the same league as VMWare...in fact, nothing is in that league yet. The Windows users at work get mad at me when I tell them that MS's products lag behind VMWare, as though it's another Linux tirade. It's kinda funny. I found the story very useful. These are great ways to try out free software...I absolutely love the Mambo VM. I also find the OpenEMR VM attractive; I really want to be able to try out that suite as I have many clients in the health care profession. Some of the others are cool, too. I guess if you wanted the OS with OpenEMR independent of VMWare, you could always boot with a live CD such as GParted and image the partition to an external hard drive, then boot in another machine with that hard drive. That would actually work quite nicely. I don't see these as yet viable for production, since you often are left to update individual packages on your own, although several were based on Ubuntu or Fedora or Slackware. However, as a testing grounds they can't be beat, and this Free Software advocate appreciates the link to the story and the virtual machines. As far as the hateful attitudes go...get a life. Nietzsche wrote "Where one can no longer love, there one should pass by." I think it's time for you to pass by. |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 2:20 PM EDT |
jdixon, What the hell is your problem? You of all people know that I've been suggesting this for months now. Get your damn head out of your ass and put some thoughts into your responses already. I'm tired of having to spell this out like I'm talking to a 2 year old. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 2:29 PM EDT |
> What the hell is your problem? You of all people know that I've been suggesting this for months now. Well, first, I'm not the one with the problem, you are. I'm happy with LXer as it currently exists. That said, my "problem" is exactly what I said. You're not making suggestions; you're making demands, as if you had the authority to tell LXer what to run and how to run it. You don't. You're a guest here, the same as the rest of us. If you can't tell the difference, then you need to learn, and preferably quit posting until you can. |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 2:29 PM EDT |
As someone who has actually *worked* with Xen, I can tell you that VMware only wishes it could compete on performance. As for functionality, Xen has everything that could possibly be needed. VMware is simply bloat at best. In fact, the ONLY reason people *think* it's a mature solution is that its been running Windows for so long. When people say stupid things like "Xen is promising but....", they've simply meant "but it doesn't do Windows". This of course is no longer true but you know what they say about teaching new tricks.... |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 2:32 PM EDT |
jdixon, I am a guest in LXer's community just as much as LXer is a guest in my community. Of course, I don't expect you to understand that given the fact that you have no clue about the very community I'm referring to. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 2:33 PM EDT |
> Xen, while it has much promise, is not yet in the same league as VMWare...in fact, nothing is in that league yet. Agreed. |
| wind0wsr3fund Nov 09, 2006 2:37 PM EDT |
Oh I know what it must be. You are waiting to load LXer.com one day and see Microsoft's blessing for Xen as per this recent deal with Novell. Yes, now I understand. It will be ready at that point. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 09, 2006 2:42 PM EDT |
VMWare has also been runing Solaris for a while, and GNU/Linux, and FreeBSD, and OpenBSD, and I even had it running OS X for a while...man, that was SSSSSLLLLLOOOOOWWWWW. I guess they might actually hinder than intentionally since it's a license violation to run it on anything but Apple hardware. I have a VM running FreeDOS and another set aside for trying out live CDs. Even if you believe Xen to be better than VMWare, you're talking about VMWare like it's a dog and that it can't begin to compete with Xen. I presume this is to get a rise out of us. I wish OS Weekly wasn't such a Mac site. I think I'll run over there and flame them and tell them how stupid they are. That won't piss them off, will it? I mean, I AM right, right? **sniff** **sniff** Ah, sweet sarcasm. |
| jdixon Nov 09, 2006 2:42 PM EDT |
> You are waiting to load LXer.com one day and see Microsoft's blessing for Xen as per this recent deal with Novell. Eh? AFIAK, that's already happened. See http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=15221 and http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6095158.html |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 09, 2006 2:45 PM EDT |
Are you flaming Xen now? I'm confused. I thought Xen was good and Microsoft was bad. No wait...I thought they BOTH were bad. I need a drink. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 09, 2006 2:45 PM EDT |
What was the question? |
| dcparris Nov 09, 2006 3:15 PM EDT |
> What was the question? The question was, um, um, um... :-) With respect to Xen, I thought it simply uses a different approach - without a hypervisor? - that would require some OS-specific stuff that the hypervisor eliminates. It is also newer, if I understand correctly. I believe that Xen offers some advantages, namely speed, but that the lack of the ability to run Windows is something of a downer for those organizations that need it. I'm sure there are other issues, but since I'm not into virtualization yet, I just can't say much. |
| Scott_Ruecker Nov 09, 2006 3:23 PM EDT |
Quoting:The editors are CLEARLY pushing non-free software onto the GNU/Linux community via this channel. The only questions are: -- We keep running over the same old ground.. 1. We are not and will never "push" non-libre software, period. We are a news website and we publish articles that have to do with Open Source Software. That means all the news, whether it be directly about it, related to it or affected by it. If people use Open Source Software directly or something even related to it they can come here and most likely find news articles about it. In this instance we are talking about VMWare, it is related to OSS and some people who use OSS use VMWare too. They should be able to know what is going on concerning it. To be informed one must know what is going on because things change all the time. Things that were once closed source are now open source, some things are not as open in their licensing as we would like them to be but to purposely not be informed of news relating to it is not the news it is censorship, in its most blatant form. 2. Your not alone. People tell us of things that are not "open source" all the time and we do as we always have, learn and try to do a better job. The more you know the better you get, no? You choose to argue from a point of view and in a way that brings you, unfortunatly, negative attention. If you started a thread about why you do not like it because it is not "free" software you would most likely find others who feel as you do, or at least in part. You could actually find camaraderie in a way. Which is why any one of us would start or participate in a thread at all. To talk to other people and express ourselves and respond to what others think. This is a place you can learn, from the news and each other but you are missing out on it. |
| wrf Nov 09, 2006 3:54 PM EDT |
"1. We are not and will never "push" non-libre software, period." Funny, but I'd say there's quite a bit of pushing going on. "We are a news website and we publish articles that have to do with Open Source Software." As you may or may not know, "Open Source" as you call it is nothing more than a re-branding of "Free Software". Therefore, I will assume that you meant to type "We are a news website and we publish articles that have to do with Free Software". "That means all the news, whether it be directly about it, related to it or affected by it." I'm not sure what in the world you think VMware, nVidia, or Oracle's wares have to do with Free Software and I'm only addressing the stories you've cross posted today. Again, if you're going to (for whatever reason) use this site to inform people on the latest news about something as non-free as VMware, the LEAST you could do is provide some kind of warning. If someone drove up to you in an expensive convertible with the top down and asked you for directions that you knew would take them through a crime infested and dangerous part of town, would you just provide the information and be on your way or would you extend yourself for a lousy few seconds and let them know they should be careful? We're talking about common decency and responsibility here. "In this instance we are talking about VMWare, it is related to OSS and some people who use OSS use VMWare too" This is a ridiculous as suggesting that LXer.com should start cross posting nutrition information because I use Free Software and I eat breakfast too. There is simply no relationship between something like VMware and Free Software other than the threat VMware poses to the Free Software Movement itself due to the software's restrictive license and its need to extend itself in order to extend its user base. "They should be able to know what is going on concerning it" VMware has a website right? "Things that were once closed source are now open source, some things are not as open in their licensing as we would like them to be but to purposely not be informed of news relating to it is not the news it is censorship, in its most blatant form" Again, we clearly disagree here. What you consider news, I consider to be off-topic. Censorship is not relevant here since readers are free to go directly to the horse's mouth to get their fill of VMware related news. The problem here is that LXer.com doesn't recognize when it goes out of scope and takes no responsibility for the quality of the service it provides. |
| wrf Nov 09, 2006 3:55 PM EDT |
Also, this is the 3rd time someone has disabled my account. As you can see, I don't plan on going anywhere. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 09, 2006 5:27 PM EDT |
Actually, Open Source is not a rebranding of Free Software; there are many speeches, both written and recorded, that come from the mouth of Richard Stallman on that matter. I use VMWare on Linux, therefore it is related to Free Software, even if it is not Free Software itself. I would love to have some information on breakfast, because as a Free Software fan, I find it interesting that proprietary cereals, such as Rice Krispies, have an Open Source alternative, such as Crispy Puffed Rice. Finally we have software...I mean, cereal...that the average consumer can...um...well, consume. I see VMWare only as a tool, and not controlling the OSes that I have installed. I can easily install them on a real box, except that real boxen cost money. I am all for Free Hardware, but the enterprise just doesn't want to listen!! When a company goes "out of scope" and produces garbage, it's up to the consumer to jump ship. Go on, jump!! |
| dcparris Nov 09, 2006 5:42 PM EDT |
This thread should be able to die fairly quickly now. |
| dinotrac Nov 09, 2006 5:43 PM EDT |
>Actually, Open Source is not a rebranding of Free Software; there are many speeches, both written and recorded, that come from the mouth of Richard Stallman on that matter. None of which change the fact that Open Source software is free software. There might be a package or two -- though none that I can think of -- that are not both Open Source and Free, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Open Source software is Free software and Free software is Open Source, notwithstanding RMS's occasional habit of sitting on a corncob. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 09, 2006 5:44 PM EDT |
I hope so. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 09, 2006 5:46 PM EDT |
That was to dcparris. And I'm really just tired of the bs in this thread. I know people have strong feelings, but this is getting out of control. I appreciate differing opinions, and I have had people I disagreed with eventually convince that they were right, but they were never so ill spirited in doing so. Open Solaris, I don't believe, is Free Software in the eyes of the FSF. The licenses are very much incompatible. I don't know that the BSD license meets those criteria, either. |
| dinotrac Nov 09, 2006 5:52 PM EDT |
rijl-- There is more than one BSD license. In the eyes of the FSF, they are free software licenses, but only the one without the advertising clause is both free and compatible with the GPL. Open Solaris is released under CDDL, which the FSF considers to be a free software license, but incompatible with the GPL. |
| rijelkentaurus Nov 09, 2006 5:58 PM EDT |
Cool. Good to know. Thanks. |
| dcparris Nov 09, 2006 6:01 PM EDT |
Well, RMS acknowledged to me that Open Source is really Free Software. What happens to many people is that they mistakenly identify "Open Source Software" with "non-copyleft" and "Free Software" with "copyleft". That is a mistake because even RMS considers non-copyleft licenses to be "Free Software". He only considers the "Open Source Software" camp to be different in philosophy. That is why many OSI-approved licenses are also approved by the FSF. |
| dinotrac Nov 10, 2006 3:45 AM EDT |
>He only considers the "Open Source Software" camp to be different in philosophy. It didn't start out that way, though ESR got a little to focused on the sizzle of corporate acceptance and forgot about the steak of freedom. Make that eggplant if you're vegetarian. |
| wrf2 Nov 10, 2006 4:09 AM EDT |
You guys must be kidding me. Do you seriously think I'm going to be silenced so easily? Not going to happen. As for those of you of think that Open Source is not a re-branding of Free Software, please study the history of the movement for more than 2 seconds. There is simply NO dispute that this is fact. Of course, many who subscribe to the Open Source propaganda machine would never want to admit this is the case since the Free Software movement involves so much more than simple pragmatism. To those people, I can only say "You can't handle the truth!" |
| jdixon Nov 10, 2006 4:28 AM EDT |
DC: > This thread should be able to die fairly quickly now. I apologize. I've got to learn to stop feeding the troll. |
| SFN Nov 10, 2006 4:39 AM EDT |
Quoting:I apologize. I've got to learn to stop feeding the troll. I was thinking the same thing about myself. It's really obvious that's all he's doing but it's so hard to pass him up. After this many years online, I should know better. Had we all just ignored him, this thread would have died almost immediately. I'm out. |
| wrf2 Nov 10, 2006 4:43 AM EDT |
don't slam the door on your way out |
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