Very nice commentary
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Abe Feb 01, 2007 11:00 AM EDT |
Don, Very nice commentary. Concise and powerful. One comment though Quoting:I think the Linux community already has a great deal of influence with Dell. And Microsoft knows it.I would say Linux & the community have great leverage on the OEMs. This leverage emerges and is the result of FOSS being superior to Windows in all aspects of IT. Starting from TCO to advanced features & capabilities, scalability, reliability and robustness. |
| jimf Feb 01, 2007 11:11 AM EDT |
> I would say Linux & the community have great leverage on the OEMs. Linux is just beginning to have enough weight to really leverage. The real surprise for the OEMs is that the Linux community will be more than willing to exert that leverage. |
| pastored Feb 02, 2007 9:00 AM EDT |
It occurs to me... ...that OEM companies could really USE Linux as a lever against Microsoft. "Look, Mr. Ballmer, here's the deal. Linux is Free, becoming more and more popular all the time, and runs on more computers than Vista. We are GOING to be offering desktop Linux in addition to Windows. Either you give me a better pricing on Vista OEM, or we'll kick you out. ALL the way out." The small OEMs wouldn't have a chance of pulling this off. But if at least TWO of them (Dell and Gateway) did it at the same time, MS would have no choice but to give in and give the OEM companies much lower prices. Think about this for a moment: MS doesn't DARE give up it's position of monopoly to Linux. If two of the largest OEMs got together and did this, they'd make millions off of MS... plus, it would be great for Linux users. Those of us who are dedicated Linux users could call Dell or Gateway and order the system we want. Just a thought... |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 02, 2007 9:15 AM EDT |
There's one problem with your theory: It would require all major hardware vendors doing this together. As soon as even *one* of them doesn't join this, MS has the leverage. They can simply say "Piss off. If you sell Linux, we up the price on Windows" and the hardware vendors would see their customers flowing to the retailer that didn't join in an now has the cheaper Windows PC's. |
| Abe Feb 02, 2007 11:39 AM EDT |
The OEMs don't want to rock the boat with MS yet. they know, If a company wants a large number of computers without Windows, they will get them from any OEM they want. So why rock the boat. Take for instance the latest Peugeot announcement of migrating 20,000 desktops to Linux. If Peugeot was going to upgrade, if not all but some of their computers, Who is going to refuse such a purchase? That is right, the idiots. The big leverage to exert on is the commercial application developers. The FOSS developers are doing that already by developing application to replace the commercial ones, especially the ones that refuse to release versions for Linux. Sooner or later, they will realize that they ignored a large number of customers and will eventually wake up. I hope it will be too late for them by then. FOSS developers are pretty intelligent guys, the smartest move they made is the most recent offer to all computer hardware manufactures. They offered to develop drivers, for free, for any peripherals they produce and all they are asking for is troubleshooting information. They are even willing to sign a NDA if necessary. Hopefully the commercial developers are bright enough and take up on that. |
| dinotrac Feb 03, 2007 7:24 AM EDT |
Thanks, Rev. One thing this does do is to highlight how paranoid certain elements of the free software community are. You'd think the last ten years hadn't happened. I used to just about get laughed out of offices for mentioning linux and/or free software. I worked for one company whose product had, in large measure been developed on linux even though Unix flavors from HP, IBM and DEC were the actual targets. A linux port was literally a matter of creating new makefiles (dimbulbs used a proprietary make from AT&T that wasn't available for linux). They pooh-poohed the idea and instead collaborated with HP on a Windows NT port using unix-to-Windows porting tools. Product still wasn't delivered when the company went bankrupt, but their major competitor brought out a Linux product. Figures. Microsoft is big and bad, but it ins't all-powerful. They thought they were clever screwing IBM on OS/2 at the end of the 80s. Turns out IBM, with a long-term view and plenty of punch, is boxing a few ears now. As to Dell...Who's in the driver's seat? Microsoft can't exactly refuse to sell to Dell, and they REALLY can't afford to have a player Dell's size not be on board with them. It is in Microsoft's interest for Windows to make business sense for Dell. That's why you saw so much concern in those e-mails. Microsoft has made to many enemies for its own good and free software has grown up to offer reasonable alternatives. Life just keeps getting better. |
| jsusanka Feb 03, 2007 9:28 AM EDT |
"One thing this does do is to highlight how paranoid certain elements of the free software community are. You'd think the last ten years hadn't happened." you keep saying that in your commentaries but I don't think it is true at all. so how does it apply to this article? |
| dinotrac Feb 03, 2007 10:25 AM EDT |
>so how does it apply to this article? Hmmm. Let me put my thinking cap on here. Well, let's see... Let's imagine a fictional world where countless Chicken Little's scream out every time Microsoft blows its nose... The fact that this article demonstrates that even big bad old Microsoft isn't possessed of limitless power might serve as a counterpoint. Not that Chicken Little ever listens. |
| Abe Feb 03, 2007 1:43 PM EDT |
Quoting:where countless Chicken Little's scream out every time Microsoft blows its nose...What can I say? FOSS is very dear to us. Remember Dino, it is better safe than sorry. And It is safer to overestimate your enemies than underestimating them. We all know how sneaky, sleazy and ruthless MS is, don't we? |
| dinotrac Feb 03, 2007 2:49 PM EDT |
>And It is safer to overestimate your enemies than underestimating them. Not always. Overestimating your enemies (as we overestimated the Soviets until they collapsed) can result in wasted resources and important things going undone. Better to appreciate your friends (Hey! IBM and Oracle and others ain't exactly featherweights) for what they are than to puff your enemies into what they are not. |
| jsusanka Feb 03, 2007 4:30 PM EDT |
">so how does it apply to this article? Hmmm. Let me put my thinking cap on here. Well, let's see... Let's imagine a fictional world where countless Chicken Little's scream out every time Microsoft blows its nose... The fact that this article demonstrates that even big bad old Microsoft isn't possessed of limitless power might serve as a counterpoint. Not that Chicken Little ever listens." I think that is reaching just a little bit - seems to me they are pretty successful at asserting their limitless power. try to call dell up today and get a laptop/desktop without windows. and I don't mean by going to some hidden web page either - I mean do it but calling their 800 number on their flyer. looks like they still have microsoft pasted all over their web pages too. |
| dinotrac Feb 03, 2007 7:06 PM EDT |
>try to call dell up today and get a laptop/desktop without windows. and I don't mean by going to some hidden web page either Of course they have Microsoft pasted all over the place. It's what they sell. If they could make more money selling Linux, they'd do that, just as they are doing in the server space. As e-mail exchanges demonstrate, Microsoft doesn't want them selling Linux in the server space, either. Trouble is, there's money to be made and Microsoft needs Dell as much as Dell needs Microsoft. |
| jsusanka Feb 04, 2007 12:11 PM EDT |
"Of course they have Microsoft pasted all over the place. It's what they sell. If they could make more money selling Linux, they'd do that, just as they are doing in the server space. As e-mail exchanges demonstrate, Microsoft doesn't want them selling Linux in the server space, either. Trouble is, there's money to be made and Microsoft needs Dell as much as Dell needs Microsoft." I guess we will never know if they could make more selling linux than windows on the desktop and home space. since no one else can even get in the market to even be given a chance. I don't see redhat advertisements all over the place for their servers on their web site. why is that if they do make more money selling linux on servers then why don't they put adds all over the place just like their windows adds. seems to me microsoft still seems to have their virtual limitless power doing its job. so if I was chicken little I would still say the sky is falling until I see linux adds equal microsoft adds on their website. |
| dinotrac Feb 04, 2007 1:05 PM EDT |
>I don't see redhat advertisements all over the place for their servers on their web site. why is that if they do make more money selling linux on servers then why don't they put adds all over the place just like their windows adds. I would bet that most Linux servers go to large corporate clients, and those are sold a different way. |
| jsusanka Feb 04, 2007 3:43 PM EDT |
" would bet that most Linux servers go to large corporate clients, and those are sold a different way." that is just my point - why don't they advertise linux on their servers and the common folk just might start to think about buying it for their clients and servers. but it is hidden and out sight and I have a feeling these emails and more are the reason. |
| dinotrac Feb 04, 2007 6:53 PM EDT |
>I have a feeling these emails and more are the reason. We all have many feelings about many things, but business decisions tend to be dollars and sense. Whey would Dell advertise their Linux servers beyond what they do now? As it is, they are not hard to find. Many, if not most, of their servers are available with Linux or WIndows, and seperate prices are published for each (are -- hmmmm -- maybe I should say were. Haven't visited the Dell site in a while). You spend money to advertise something when it will gain you some benefit. |
| swbrown Feb 04, 2007 7:11 PM EDT |
> why don't they advertise linux on their servers Dell doesn't really advertise any of the large server components, as they expect you already know what you want if you've come to them to buy $20k worth of rack servers. They do have marketing agreements with RedHat though where they list RedHat as a free pre-install OS with a free subscription (some models) along with the "No OS" choice. I generally select the free RedHat option rather than "No OS" even though I put Debian on them just to send a signal that I'm buying them for use with Linux, and also when doing returns etc. you get the Linux support people. An example of the difference, when trying to do a return of a HD doing the click of death on one of our laptops, I got Dell's traditional consumer-level Windows support (it wasn't bought through the business support side of Dell). She asked if I had the Windows CD still, I said no, and that started quite a conversation. It went something like this, but longer: Dell: You will need the Windows CD to be able to use the HD Me: I don't need it, I'll be installing Linux. Dell: But how will you do that sir, if you don't have Windows? Me: It's a different OS, it hasn't been running Windows for years, it's not a problem. Dell: I will call you back when the HD arrives to walk you through installing the OS Me: I don't need your help with this, just send me the HD. She called back when it arrived and seemed surprised that I had managed to install something without having Windows. |
| tuxchick Feb 04, 2007 7:19 PM EDT |
> Dell: You will need the Windows CD to be able to use the HD That is like, such totally awesome customer service. Maybe by Y3K they'll cop to the radical concept of cluing their personnel into their whole product line. Woa, I get dizzy thinking about it. I might write a "MBAs For Dummies" series based on it. |
| jsusanka Feb 05, 2007 3:21 AM EDT |
"We all have many feelings about many things, but business decisions tend to be dollars and sense.
Whey would Dell advertise their Linux servers beyond what they do now?" uh? the point of advertising is to get more people to use it. if they are making more money by selling linux servers in server space as you say and as these emails show then why don't they advertise the heck out of it. that is dollars and sense and to me they should do it more. you know maybe if they did just maybe they would get one or two more people to use linux more. but I think we all know the real reason and these emails give us a glimpse into that reason. |
| Sander_Marechal Feb 05, 2007 3:58 AM EDT |
Well, Dell can probably get discounts from MS if they push MS's products to the exclusion of everything else. This would be an incentive, not a requirement to MS doesn't violate any DoJ rulings. So, is the money gained from extra Linux server sales enough to cover the increased license cost of Windows, especially given the fact that almost all of your server customers will ask for Linux anyway if they want it, regardless of advertising? It makes business sense for dell *not* to advertise they Linus server offerings too loudly. I really hope that the coming cases against Microsoft will bring their OEM licensing deals into light. |
| dinotrac Feb 05, 2007 6:32 AM EDT |
>that is dollars and sense and to me they should do it more. you know maybe if they did just maybe they would get one or two more people to use linux more. Ummm...probably the same reason they don't advertise Dell servers with pieces of paper with those little "call me" strips thumb-tacked to bulletin boards. Different markets are approached in different ways. |
| tuxchick Feb 05, 2007 7:20 AM EDT |
> It makes business sense for dell *not* to advertise they Linus server offerings too loudly. Does it? Is it worth being Sauron's slave? Microsoft is telling Dell how to run their business. That doesn't seem very smart no matter how it's spun. |
| jsusanka Feb 05, 2007 8:22 AM EDT |
"Ummm...probably the same reason they don't advertise Dell servers with pieces of paper with those little "call me" strips thumb-tacked to bulletin boards. Different markets are approached in different ways." umm - well now you are speculating - arguing a different argument - bill g would proud of you. I would argue that their support calls would drop if they sold linux to the common joe because it would actually work. besides dell support is basically vnc into the persons machine and restore off the original image. the same could easily be done with linux. |
| tuxchick Feb 05, 2007 8:25 AM EDT |
jsusanka, good point. after all, they advertise the heck out of their Windows servers, which presumably are also targeting a primarily corporate market. |
| dcparris Feb 05, 2007 10:08 AM EDT |
Oddly, the point of my article was that Microsoft - weren't they still dismissing Linux as a competitive threat in '02? - was shaken by the discovery that a key partner was selling boxes with something other than Windows. They were caught completely off-guard. I think it also reveals that Dell is more independent than we seem to give them credit for. Sure, Microsoft probably bullies them a bit (that mindset shows through in the e-mails), but Dell is apparently trying to keep its options open. |
| dinotrac Feb 05, 2007 11:41 AM EDT |
>Sure, Microsoft probably bullies them a bit (that mindset shows through in the e-mails), but Dell is apparently trying to keep its options open. Which goes to my point: Microsoft ain't the only big gorilla in the zoo. |
| jsusanka Feb 05, 2007 2:06 PM EDT |
">Sure, Microsoft probably bullies them a bit (that mindset shows through in the e-mails), but Dell is apparently trying to keep its options open. Which goes to my point: Microsoft ain't the only big gorilla in the zoo." well - my point is this shows nothing about what dell is actually thinking. to me it looks like microsoft's bullying is actually working because I still see adds for microsoft all over their website. but maybe I am judging this a whole different level - but to me things are just status quo as far as the bullying goes. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!