This is impressive...
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| helios Mar 24, 2007 3:32 AM EDT |
I've been focused on this distro since the Ubuntu repositories and framwork were written into the code. I have always "kind of" liked Mepis but I've had some nagging problems with the politics inside the DevTeam and the treatment of one such team member in particular. That particular person has landed on his feet and is now a valued and trusted member of another good distro community. What distro community he has joined is a source of amusement and enjoyment to me. If I may add my personal opinion here... "If you can't beat 'em...embarrass them." My hat is off to the individual spoken of here. Many of you know who it is...some do not and it's probably not important now anyway. Google Mepis dustup and it will all become clear. That being said, I gotta tell you...Mr. Woodford has done a bit of housecleaning himself with Mepis. I am running the 6.5 rc2 on several machines at work and they are performing nicely. The beryl/compiz 3d options with the nvidia opt-in works without any tweaking and it is rock solid. I am running it along side the latest release of Sidux for the purpose of hammering the snot out of it to see if it will fail from application overload and glut. While several have fallen off the table during this experiment, VectorLinux, Sidux, Mepis and Pardus are still humming along and producing on a daily basis. Vector is the only one not based on Debian. In my opinion, it is one of the best distros out there. I get the feeling that when the smoke clears, the dust settles and any other lame metaphor is employed, Debian is going to emerge (no pun intended) as THE standard in Linux. After my work with the deb distros and seeing how stable they are under my abusive and negligent behavior, I gotta say...I won't have any hurt feelings should that come to pass. I applaude Warren Woodford for his effort here. And btw...I hope he makes a butt-load of money from his efforts. Somehow that has come to be seen as a "dirty" thing when applied to Linux. thats a shame. h |
| dinotrac Mar 24, 2007 5:03 AM EDT |
>I hope he makes a butt-load of money from his efforts. Hear, hear! Freedom includes the freedom to get stinking rich -- IF you don't take away the freedom of others. |
| tuxchick Mar 24, 2007 8:11 AM EDT |
but Helios- what about Warren's whining about having to meet the requirements of the GPL? That darned old GPL has been a thorn in his side from day one- plus he's always been dodgy on licensing questions, for example custom Mepis stuff like Mepis Utilities, which he can't seem to give a straight answer on how they're licensed. Mepis source DVDs cost $34.95, which doesn't seem to meet the GPL's standard of "for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution." Seems like a person who values 'free as in freedom,' and who respects FOSS licenses, would take a skeptical look at Mepis for these reasons. |
| jimf Mar 24, 2007 8:36 AM EDT |
> Mepis source DVDs cost $34.95, which doesn't seem to meet the GPL's standard of "for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution." What economy do you live in TC? I doubt he's making anything on this. |
| bigg Mar 24, 2007 8:45 AM EDT |
> Mepis source DVDs cost $34.95, which doesn't seem to meet the GPL's standard of "for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution." I was wondering about that myself. Beyond that, and I understand people have to eat, all that pestering about sending him money starts to get irritating. I hate to say it but I think he falls into the "free as in freeloader" category. Good distribution, annoying developer. |
| tuxchick Mar 24, 2007 8:52 AM EDT |
I live where DVDs at retail cost around $0.50 each, a decent stand-alone duplicator costs $200, and postage for two disks is about a dollar. Where most FOSS projects have free hosting and free source downloads. Like, you know, Sourceforge. Where most FOSS projects don't try to game the system and meet their obligations without whining about it. |
| azerthoth Mar 24, 2007 9:43 AM EDT |
You missed a big one, your under the assumption that the person doing the duplications time is free, plus hauling it to the postal orifice. Time time time. At my normal rate of pay, doing a one off, packaging and hauling it to the P.O., would actually come in at right around $35.00. |
| jdixon Mar 24, 2007 9:50 AM EDT |
> the person doing the duplications time is free, plus hauling it to the postal orifice. The person doing the duplications can be a minimum wage hire if he spends the $200 for the duplicator. Sending out the daily mail is something that should already be taken care of, it shouldn't require a special mail run. Even if it does, Morgantown's post office is fairly centrally located, and probably no more than 15 minutes from anywhere in town. Sorry, but I don't see that running more than $10 or so. |
| Abe Mar 24, 2007 9:59 AM EDT |
Quoting:Mepis source DVDs cost $34.95, which doesn't seem to meet the GPL's standard of "for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution." I guess we have to look at the whole picture of expense and revenue. $34.95 might sound a lot for a DVD of software that was mainly developed by volunteers, but what we really should look at is the total cost of producing the DVD. Let's not forget that the cost of putting such a good distro together, it takes lots of time and efforts of many people. I think they deserve a few bucks to live on and some to spare. Quoting:Freedom includes the freedom to get stinking rich -- On the other hand, I disagree about the freedom to get stinking rich. I guess what I am saying is, if you are making lots of money on selling software developed by many many volunteers, you need to give some of that back to those who deserve compensation too. If it wasn't for them, you couldn't have been able to make it big in the first place. If you don't, then you become a stinking filthy freeloader. |
| bigg Mar 24, 2007 10:01 AM EDT |
If we're going down the road of saying you only have to distribute the source for GPL software if you are compensated for your time, Microsoft might be interested. They could argue that Bill Gates is doing the distributing. Hence you can download binaries for free but need to pay $10 million to get the source. Something's not right here. |
| tuxchick Mar 24, 2007 10:01 AM EDT |
Then how can he sell the binary distribution CDs for less? The SimplyMEPIS-32 Value CD, for one example, is $17.95. Why doesn't he have a SourceForge repository for downloading sources? That's free to the distributor. Some folks might want two DVDs full of code. Other folks would like the option of getting the sources for a few applications, instead of having the fork over for the whole works, and to have current versions available. Does Warren pay money for his source code? Not the code he freely downloads from Ubuntu. What does any of this have to do with Warren's bad attitude about having to honor software licenses anyway? To me he looks more like a someone who wants to profit from FOSS without meeting his obligations in return. Sure, there are a lot of people who like and use Mepis. That's their privilege. Just don't make excuses for his poor behavior. |
| bigg Mar 24, 2007 10:07 AM EDT |
> you become a stinking filthy freeloader Hence my earlier comment. Mepis offers good wireless support. Should I send them $100 a year? Let's see, there are two parts to that support. One is to include an updated version of ndiswrapper. The other is to include non-free drivers. So should I give money to Woodford or the ndiswrapper project? I'd be surprised if he gave part of my $100 to the ndiswrapper project. He takes, but I don't see him giving much back, and then on top of it he criticizes the GPL. Again, good distribution, but Warren Woodford is not my favorite guy. I don't know him but his actions don't impress me. |
| Abe Mar 24, 2007 10:27 AM EDT |
Quoting:Again, good distribution, but Warren Woodford is not my favorite guy. I don't know him but his actions don't impress me. That is exactly why I don't use Mepis and wouldn't recommend it to anyone. There are many distros who contribute back. Mandriva, Suse, Red Hat, and many others who have been sponsoring developers and leading the development of FOSS are more deserving than Mepis. |
| dinotrac Mar 24, 2007 10:31 AM EDT |
>you need to give some of that back to those who deserve compensation too. Why? It makes business sense to feed those who feed you, but I fail to see any kind of moral obligation. Those who provide the software have made the decision to license it freely. Nobody twisted their arms. You can't make an offer and then get bent out of shape when somebody takes you up on it. |
| bigg Mar 24, 2007 10:40 AM EDT |
> but I fail to see any kind of moral obligation I agree with that, but it goes in both directions. I see nothing wrong with downloading and using Mepis without giving him a penny. It goes against my principles to pay someone for a sandwich they got for free at a homeless shelter, even if he did go through the trouble of putting mustard on it. |
| Abe Mar 24, 2007 11:01 AM EDT |
Quoting:but I fail to see any kind of moral obligation.Those who provide the software have made the decision to license it freely. Moral obligation is self enforced and I didn't say anything about obligation. I said "need to" for the betterment of FOSS and consequently Mepis itself. I am not a FOSS developer so don't see any of the developers complaining. |
| jimf Mar 24, 2007 11:08 AM EDT |
At one time I did spend quite a few hours talking with Warren. Overall he's an interesting character, a nice guy, and a very talented developer, but, there are three major points where he's been a big disappointment. The worst of these was to reject virtually any help from the most talented members of the Mepis community, and, proceed in making it known that they weren't at all welcome. His right? Yes, but hardly in the spirit of a community Linux Distro. Secondly he refused to release the source until he was absolutely forced, then only with whining about 'how unfair'. And third, that he still hasn't released his proprietary utilities under GPL, even though he promised the community that he would do just that. The fact that the source is available at all is a big step forward for Mepis. I also wait to see the proprietary bits released under GPL as promised. Still, I think that people griping about the high, but certainly not outrageous, $35 for the source DVDs is only going to give Warren more justification to whine and delay, so, let's not be picking at nits here. |
| azerthoth Mar 24, 2007 11:14 AM EDT |
TC its BECAUSE its the source and not binary that it would cost most. The binary (production) CD goes out and is probably mass produced. The source CD is requested by what 1 in 100 users? 1 in 1000 at most. That puts it well withing the realm of being a one off and therefor more expensive. As for the minimum wage comment, even most 14 year olds have more self respect than to work for THAT pittance. |
| bigg Mar 24, 2007 11:17 AM EDT |
> I am not a FOSS developer so don't see any of the developers complaining. That's the thing that rubs me the wrong way. He claims to be a developer needing money to have an incentive to keep working. Yet he gives little or nothing to the developers doing almost everything that goes into Mepis. > The worst of these was to reject virtually any help from the most talented members of the Mepis community, and, proceed in making it known that they weren't at all welcome. His right? Yes, but hardly in the spirit of a community Linux Distro. This played a role in my not considering Mepis when I got serious about Linux as my main OS (all my other criticisms came later). It seemed risky to go with what appeared to be the Warren Woodford project. One unfortunate accident while changing a lightbulb and my main OS is no longer supported. |
| Abe Mar 24, 2007 11:27 AM EDT |
Quoting:The worst of these was to reject virtually any help from the most talented members of the Mepis community, and, proceed in making it known that they weren't at all welcome. I read the same from others and you are right, it is his prerogative. I guess that shows that he is ... freeloader. Because of this attitude, while back I thought MS will hire him or buy Mepis. Who knows, that might still happen. I guess that is the price of too much freedom. If it was up to me, I say it is time to add some clause in GPL3 to disallow profiting of GPLed software by commercial companies without compensation to developers. That hasn't been needed so far because, like I said in previous post, other distributors have been pretty good about sponsoring projects and developers. Any one knows about others like Mepis? |
| azerthoth Mar 24, 2007 11:43 AM EDT |
At what rate and who would track profit vs contributions? Do you really want RMS in charge of some kind FSF police force charged with making sure that people who gave freely of their time and skill and DONATED (key word) the result to the whole wide world got some kind of compensation. *edit* oh btw, what proof do you have that MEPIS makes a profit to be saying that he needs to donate said money back? */edit* |
| jimf Mar 24, 2007 11:52 AM EDT |
@Abe No matter how I feel about Warren, I have a big problem totally dismissing Mepis. It was my first full time Linux Distro and introduced a lot of people to something pretty close to Debian. Many if not most of the people I knew there have gone on to Debian, Arch, etc, etc... In that since, Mepis does give back to the Linux community. Mepis is still a very well thought out and complete Distro, and, one that I'd recommend to a new user. Most will eventually move on to the real thing when they've learned a bit. |
| jdixon Mar 24, 2007 2:17 PM EDT |
> As for the minimum wage comment, even most 14 year olds have more self respect than to work for THAT pittance. You've obviously never checked the economic statistics for West Virginia, have you? Hint: the median HOUSEHOLD income for West Virginia was $36,445 in 2005. Believe me, most 14 year olds here are happy to have a job at all, whether it's minimum wage or not. |
| tracyanne Mar 24, 2007 3:07 PM EDT |
I don't use MEPIS because it hasn't lived up to the hype. Every MEPIS distro I've tried compares unfavourably with Mandriva. |
| jimf Mar 24, 2007 3:16 PM EDT |
> compares unfavourably with Mandriva. Having just switched from Mandrake to Mepis, I certainly didn't find that the case. And speaking of forking out money... Mandriva tops them all ;-) |
| azerthoth Mar 24, 2007 3:21 PM EDT |
Every response I have for that would drag us way off topic. I have started a response to your comment about 6 times now and just cant come up with a way to do it. Needless to say you are sorely mistaken about my not understanding. |
| jimf Mar 24, 2007 3:34 PM EDT |
> If it was up to me, I say it is time to add some clause in GPL3 to disallow profiting of GPLed software by commercial companies without compensation to developers. Sorry, that's not how it works Abe. Either this has to remain voluntary or it doesn't work at all. > That hasn't been needed so far because, like I said in previous post, other distributors have been pretty good about sponsoring projects and developers. Ultimately that works to their benefit. > Any one knows about others like Mepis? Mepis is by no means unique. |
| helios Mar 24, 2007 6:04 PM EDT |
"but Helios- what about Warren's whining about having to meet the requirements of the GPL? That darned old GPL has been a thorn in his side from day one- plus he's always been dodgy on licensing questions, for example custom Mepis stuff like Mepis Utilities, which he can't seem to give a straight answer on how they're licensed." I began this post with a caveat specifically addressing this issue. What? You didn't hear the screams of torment and pleas for help? Oh wait...those are the readers of my blog... my bad. THIS is the "politics" within the Mepis DevTeam of which I spoke. The mistreatment and dismissal of DevTeam members with one in particular has also been substantiated here. Without specifics, I will say that Woodford hasn't treated me particularly well over the years and emails. If he did respond to my questions or requests for interviews, it was with a haughty, superior demeanor and the answer to my queries were always in the negatory. From what I know of him, I'm not exactly his biggest fan. However, I will pose a question to you TC....prefaced with my usual wandering preamble. Would that be an "ambling preamble"? Maybe a "protracted prologue" Medicated minds want to know. I recently finished a project I began a few months before becoming ill. I built my wife a car. From the radio knobs out, I fully restored a 1965 Ford Galaxy 500 two door classic. Five years later and God-Only-Knows-How-Much-Money-Because-I-Lost-Track, I found myself with one more decision. What kind of shoes would I put on my baby? I pride myself with having re-created an automobile that defied any difference from one newly purchased from the showroom floor. The tires originally mounted on the vehicle are no longer available and given the fact that the most important person in my life will be driving the car, I am not about to put crappy shoes on a racehorse. I settled on Falken Ziex tires. Yep, you've probably never heard of them, but Consumer Reports has. As has Car and Track and American Car Restorer. Dollar for dollar, they are the safest, longest-lasting and best made tires on the market. Well, that settled that. Not quite. Seems the folks at the top of this foodchain like to employ slave labor while reaping what even I consider to be obscene profits...and I am a Capitalist Supreme. To make matters worse, There were whispers that this fine company actually provided physical tires and mechanical parts to Iraq during Desert Storm in an extremely quiet trade agreement. Quandaries abound. No they don't. In the end, the safety of my wife and my piece of mind won out. I could not prove these guys ever undermined US war efforts and while "slave labor" abounds world-wide...we know better than anyone that our sovereignty has long ago been breached by the drumbeat for sub-minimum wage labor. God forbid we pay .45 cents more for a friggin' head of lettuce. I have already belabored the point and tested the patience of my friends so I will not accentuate any more instances. The point has been made. While all analogies eventually fail under over-use and examination, this one will hold together long enough to get me to my destination. Warren Woodford is indeed attempting to make a profit from his Mepis efforts. Why shouldn't he find a way to (Lord I hate this term) monitize his efforts? Yes Carla he was a bit snitty over the GPL issues, and as much as I find his reactions unpleasant, as a former business owner, I understand them. He's looking at the books, eye-balling the numbers and cursing a circumstance either he under estimated or just didn't assign any importance...the various requirements of the GPL. Don't anyone accuse me of defending the reaction because I will not or cannot. However, I do understand his frustration. Look, it comes down to something my Dad told me years ago in response to questions raised about my career path. "Find and then do something you love. When you have achieved that, you will never have to work again for the rest of your life." Warren has spent significant portions of his life developing Mepis. The afore-mentioned DevTeam members were escorted to the door because they had a different vision of Mepis than Warren. Hence, walking papers were issued. Done in a completely public and less than dignified manner, I agree; but it was his prerogative to do so and he excersized his options. This "financ-O-phobia we seem to have about someone making a buck from their legal and painstaking efforts needs to be overcome. A handful of Distros are being slowly suffocated due to ever-growing demands from an expanding user base and sinking donation levels. We developed BuckaMonth for them in order to aid in their fund raising but that too was decried as a "scam". Some in this community do indeed want their cake and eat it too. "I demand your BEST efforts, the EXACT packages I FIND NECESSARY and that YOU provide IMMEDIATE responses to my support questions. Oh, by the way...I don't think I am obligated by ANY moral platitude to answer your call for a dollar a month from me." They are as short-sighted as they are selfish and foolish. "Seems like a person who values 'free as in freedom,' and who respects FOSS licenses, would take a skeptical look at Mepis for these reasons." Yes indeed it would seem...but you conveniently leave dangling the obvious conclusion to that moral decree. I weigh any perceived negatives against the pragmatic environs and personal/professional needs. I weighed, I tested, I let my personal feelings be known to Mr. Woodford, donated a hundred bucks to his distro and installed it on my computer. When he is egregious in his violations and denounces the GPL in word and deed, I will scour away any trace of Mepis from my HD. As it stands, we seem to be nitpicking political and financially philosophical differences. Far be those from a reason to ignore a superior operating system. I have seen the attitude many times in the community. "By Jove, I'll show him! I will REFUSE to use his software, software that I honestly need and like, and I will do so in order to teach him a lesson he will NEVER forget!" Personally, if I were Warren Woodford, I would put Mepis Development into hyper-drive, perfect it as far as the most stable and current Kernel will allow, then package and sell it in the big box stores for $99.95 US. Guys like Than over at Elive, Robert at Vector and several other truly phenomenal distros are being damaged by this "Money-is-evil" GroupThink. The current "sweetheart" of the community is backed by a rich philanthopist...so lots of luck with that failing. The problem here is simple. Far superior distros used by many spoiled and selfish users are going to die via this attitude. I was going to reserve some time tonight to write a blog. Never mind...seems I already did. peace h |
| tracyanne Mar 24, 2007 6:18 PM EDT |
quote:: And speaking of forking out money... Mandriva tops them all ;-) ::quote And unlike MEPIS, Mandriva supports a number of FOSS project financially, which is why I am not only happy to use the commercial versions of Mandriva, but also joined the Mandriva (then Mandrake) supporters club when Mandrake was having financial problems. |
| helios Mar 24, 2007 6:56 PM EDT |
Tracyanne? Listen, because it was said in the above commentary without being challenged does not make it true. I quote you in part: "And unlike MEPIS, Mandriva supports a number of FOSS project financially,..." I've stated earlier...I don't particularly like Warren Woodford from what I know of him and from his responses to my emails and phone calls. However things like this become perpetual if not yanked to a halt at the first opportunity. I can tell you with confidence that Mepis LLC has indeed "donated" to several FOSS projects. While I do know who some of them were, that is between Mr Woodford and his accountant. Open Source does not mean "Open Season" on a community member with whom some of us have a philosophical or political difference of opinion. And if a partial criteria for a "Good" FOSS Community member can be recounted from your example above, then by all means and by your own standards, Novell is a shining and noble example of a FOSS Supporter? They've donated millions to FOSS projects not to mention their contributions via hard code and applications released under GPL2. Let's add insult to injury here. Novell also plans to fully embrace GPL3. Not saying I might not agree with that, but I would venture to guess 60 percent of the Linux Community finds that a slap in the face. Do past achievements and gifts resolve them of any future sins to the extent of the Novell Treason? I dun' thin' so....but then again, that's just me. h |
| tuxchick Mar 24, 2007 7:00 PM EDT |
Helios, I did miss that point in your first post. It's your fault because your posts are so freakin' long. :) I have no problem with anyone making money selling a Linux distribution. With FOSS you have to be better to succeed. If you make something good enough that people want to pay money for it, good for you. Most industries are more like FOSS than they are like closed, sekkrit, proprietary software- the restaurant industry is my favorite example. Nothing secret there- anyone can buy the exact same ingredients in any restaurant dish and cook it for themselves, and probably save a lot of money in the process. Criminy, McDonald's sells billions of truly terrible hamburgers, don't tell me even the biggest kitchen klutz can't cook a simple hamburger. With booze it's totally blatant- the same bottle of wine that's $10 in the store is $40 in a restaurant. Yet people still pay it. I laugh in amazement at the breakfast foods in the freezer aisle of the store- eggs, bacon, toast! Easiest foods in the world to cook. But someone's buying it. Clothing, furniture, the building trades, vehicles, consumer appliances, etc etc etc- no secrets. Either you make something people want, or tuff, it doesn't sell, and they're all copying each other. Now. Slave labor and unsavory practices? That's a bit murkier, and always has been. The bigger the business, the harder it is to know what nasties they are committing, and to hold them to account. It's not analogous to meeting the terms of the GPL and other FOSS licenses, because that's front and center. It's fundamental to FOSS, and not possible to murk. Warren's disdain for meeting his license obligations in not excusable. He didn't plead ignorance- he pleaded "oh noes, just because the distribution that I am selling and want to make a lot of money from is made up of 98% code written by other people, it's not fair to expect me to honor the way that code was licensed, because it's like too hard and too expensive for a small business dood like me." Which, as has already been mentioned, is bogus. Free hosting abounds for FOSS projects. It's worth asking how much would it cost Mr. Warren to write and maintain all that code he's so whiny about? The updates, the security patches, the new features and improvements...all 100% free to him. Cry me a river over his silly "problems" with meeting GPL requirements. He wants to staple some proprietary pretties on Linux and sell it? How does that make him different from any other business that wants to lock up and exploit free software? I think we're mostly in agreement, but I'm kind of lost at this point, so I think I'm calling it done. :) |
| tracyanne Mar 24, 2007 8:35 PM EDT |
quote:: Novell is a shining and noble example of a FOSS Supporter? ::quote If you say so. Last time I looked Novell had signed a patent deal with Microsoft that seems intended to benefit Novell at the expense of the rest of the Community. Last I looked Mandriva had not done anything like this, and don't snivel about releasing the source code, and make both their binaries and their source code freely available - PCLinucOS is one of the beneficiaries of them doing so, nor do they snivel about doing anything else that the GPL requires of them. |
| helios Mar 25, 2007 3:44 AM EDT |
Novell is a shining and noble example of a FOSS Supporter? ::quote http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sarcasm h |
| dinotrac Mar 25, 2007 3:54 AM EDT |
helios - Feeling our oats this morning, are we? |
| tracyanne Mar 25, 2007 4:13 AM EDT |
quote:; Novell is a shining and noble example of a FOSS Supporter? ::quote [HYPERLINK@www.m-w.com] h ::quote If you say so. |
| swbrown Mar 25, 2007 11:54 AM EDT |
> Novell is a shining and noble example of a FOSS Supporter? Sure they are! Why, they're a significant financial contributor to the FSF! Err, wait a sec.. http://tinyurl.com/26ptsa (Grr, lxer attempt to wordwrap URLs?) |
| helios Mar 25, 2007 5:45 PM EDT |
SB...Are you seeing a pattern here? Ballmer comes to the microphone and makes outlandish statements...someone from Legal, HR or Damnit, I mean Damage Control comes out and either apologizes for the statement or tells us that his statement was "taken out of context". What he *really* meant to say was... The only problem with this as a sincere effort glares back at us. Those who pay attention to such things are long gone with Ballmer's Verbal Bile firmly burnt into the memory circuits. Any apology either isn't heard or paid attention to.... we have a company to run, a life to live and a financial portfolio to build. The smart folks at Microsoft make sure that we are well on our merry way doing ALL those things, and having made decisions BASED on what Ballmer said...before they come from behind the curtain and "announce" the "apology". It's usually announced to the janitor sweeping up and a few n'er do-wells sleeping one off in the corner. The "targest" for his verbal torpedos have already left the building. From the link you provided, it appears Novell has learned a thing or two from MS as well. h |
| DarrenR114 Mar 26, 2007 7:13 AM EDT |
Helios, I don't believe there is such a thing as "The Novell Treason" - would you please point out links to said "treason"? I'd really need to see what you mean by "treason", against who this said act was perpetrated upon, and what kind of damage was incurred by said act. Until then, could you please refrain from such inflammatory language that does nothing but put a "crackpot" label on FOSS enthusiasts for those who aren't familiar with Linux (and you be surprised by how many there are even in the U.S.) Thank you, Darren |
| jdixon Mar 26, 2007 7:19 AM EDT |
> Until then, could you please refrain from such inflammatory language... Heios, refrain? Probably not. And, I'll add that the fact that you don't like such language is immaterial. It is his considered opinion, and he has a right to state it as such, as you have a right to disagree. That's what makes LX'er a good site. Added later: Oh, and Darren, pretending you don't what Helios means by treason is an obvious subterfuge. Everyone here knows that he's talking about the Novell/Microsoft agreement. |
| DarrenR114 Mar 26, 2007 7:45 AM EDT |
@jdixon, I take great offense to such liberal use of the word "treason" - I was offended when Ann Coulter did it, and I find it offensively inflammatory to apply the term that is defined by the US Constitution as "levying war against these United States" to a company that did not do anything remotely resembling "treason". It's use in such a manner is in fact reprehensible and libelous. The problem to me is that treason is a very serious offense and to use it in the manner that Ann Coulter and Helios have is to trivialise the crime. |
| dinotrac Mar 26, 2007 7:53 AM EDT |
Darren - It bothers me mostly in that it dilutes the language. Treason is a powerful word that should be reserved for powerful purposes. Heck...Novell's actions could even be portrayed as a victory for free software. Something that ambiguous can't easily satisfy the requirements for treason. Foolishness might fit. Betrayal might fit. Selfish, short-sighted, etc. Not treason. |
| jdixon Mar 26, 2007 8:04 AM EDT |
> The problem to me is that treason is a very serious offense and to use it in the manner that Ann Coulter and Helios have is to trivialise the crime. Regarding the use wrt Novell, I agree. I don't think Helios does. You've made your point that you disagree with the usage, and why. Asking Helios not to use the language, when he obviously feels it applies, is going to far. It's better to let him make his case, and for you to make yours. That way LX'er readers can be informed about both opinions, and make their decisions accordingly. Wrt Ann, let's just say I disagree and leave it at that. |
| DarrenR114 Mar 26, 2007 8:05 AM EDT |
@Dino, That's exactly my point, though you seemed a bit more generous by providing alternatives to the word. |
| jdixon Mar 26, 2007 8:06 AM EDT |
> Novell's actions could even be portrayed as a victory for free software. Yes, it could. Which side is correct will depend on how things play out in the future. Right now, there's now way of knowing. |
| tuxtom Mar 26, 2007 8:12 AM EDT |
Treason: - a crime that undermines the offender's government - disloyalty by virtue of subversive behavior - treachery: an act of deliberate betrayal Very serious, indeed, and all three describe George W. Bush's presidency much more so than they do Novell/Microsoft. |
| jdixon Mar 26, 2007 8:14 AM EDT |
Tuxtom: Whether I agree or not, that probably crosses the line of the TOS, since there's no way it can't be considered political in nature. :( |
| bigg Mar 26, 2007 8:39 AM EDT |
> Very serious, indeed, and all three describe George W. Bush's presidency much more so than they do Novell/Microsoft. Being stupid and irresponsible doesn't really fit into those categories. GWB and Novell might both be stupid and irresponsible, but that's not a crime. |
| jdixon Mar 26, 2007 9:16 AM EDT |
> GWB and Novell might both be stupid and irresponsible, but that's not a crime. " ...stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." Robert A. Heinlein speaking as Lazarus Long. Unfortunately, in the former case, if stupidity exists, it's on the part of the voters, and they will be the ones paying the penalty. |
| bigg Mar 26, 2007 9:42 AM EDT |
@jdixon: I stand corrected. |
| helios Mar 26, 2007 10:35 AM EDT |
Darren, I will not, on the basis of you being offended, withdraw the use of the word treason. Let me do as I do most often and make up my own word. Al Gore can manufacture escape hatches from excessive living with "Carbon Credits". I can then make up a word. oh...I coined the phrase "Novell Treason" btw. But, since at least one dictionary definition mentions the word "nation" within the context, Let's just call it MicroTreason. How's that? Only a small percentage of the entire globe was truly affected by this affront so the word MicroTreason should bring it down to a level where you can become comfortable with it. OR...how about the "Novell Treachery"? In fact, I think I like that. Should I again refer to this "partnership" again, rest assured I will assign the descriptor as either one or the other. Darren, I have not been politically aware for long now. I am a retired soldier of twenty years, and for that twenty years, I shelved my political opinions for the good of my Uniform, my men and my nation. However, now that I merely cover my heart with my hat instead of salute the flag, I can tell you something I have noticed more and more within the past six years. There are an awful lot of you that seem to look for opportunities to become offended. I sincerely wish you were as offended by the death of 3000 innocent civilians than as you are by my possible liberties with one single word. And please...Don't flag-wave now. You have long ago given yourself up as an American Defeatist. h Novell Treachery it is. |
| DarrenR114 Mar 26, 2007 10:49 AM EDT |
"Novell Treachery" is more appropriately worded to me - I don't agree with the assessment, but it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. PS - I'm not an "American Defeatist" - I just don't believe we have any business being in the middle of a foreign civil war. You mentioned 3,000 civilian lives, leading me to believe that you're referring to the events of 9/11 - to which I have to ask, what evidence has ever been offered showing any Iraqi involvement in that attack? But on that, let's keep that to another forum as I don't want to breach DC's good graces too far. Edited: As for it being "one little word": it's not just one little word - no more so than the "n-word" is just one little word. When we make the word traitor so light in its meaning that it applies to anyone who disagrees, then we have done a disservice to the Liberty that our forefathers fought so hard to secure for us. When we do this, it is like giving the term "murder" the same weightiness as "jaywalking" - shall we put all jaywalkers in prison? No! To say it another way, 'o' is just one little letter, but there is a world of difference between 'hello' and 'hell'. So for me 'treason' is not just one little word. |
| bigg Mar 26, 2007 11:04 AM EDT |
> I sincerely wish you were as offended by the death of 3000 innocent civilians than as you are by my possible liberties with one single word. That seems to be a bit overboard. I don't remember Darren ever saying anywhere (on LXer) that 9/11 was no big deal. You should realize that there are some limitations to freedom. I don't always agree with everyone who posts here but your attack on him is just not reasonable. |
| jdixon Mar 26, 2007 11:18 AM EDT |
> You mentioned 3,000 civilian lives, leading me to believe that you're referring to the events of 9/11... Strange. I took it to refer to the deaths in Iraq since the start of the invasion. Amazing how the same words can be taken different ways, isn't it? |
| DarrenR114 Mar 26, 2007 11:22 AM EDT |
@bigg, Thank you - and you are correct in your assessment of my feelings about the attacks of 9/11: I personally believe that we should increase our presence in Afghanistan, and put more pressure on Pakistan, precisely because of the events of 9/11, and because that's where the biggest source of that sort of trouble is. I also think we should have perhaps been a little more stern with the Saudis, since the main source for the false papers used by the 9/11 hijackers was found to be Saudi Arabia. |
| DarrenR114 Mar 26, 2007 11:26 AM EDT |
@jdixon, Helios qualified the 3,000 as "civilian" - the 3,000 U.S. deaths in Iraq since the invasion are classified as "military" deaths. So you see how important a single word can be for proper interpretation and understanding. |
| jdixon Mar 26, 2007 11:36 AM EDT |
> Helios qualified the 3,000 as "civilian" You are correct. I didn't read carefully enough. |
| dcparris Mar 26, 2007 4:41 PM EDT |
I honestly haven't seen Novell as treacherous - let alone traitorous - so much as simply suckered into MS' game. I really believe they felt they were working in good faith to support their customers - and the deal surely does just that. You'd have to be pretty smart to beat Ballmer at his own game, and I don't believe Novell's leadership is that smart. Indeed, that they seem to have been caught by surprise with the "covenant not to sue" at close to the last minute suggests that they aren't. I could be wrong, but time will tell. I dislike the deal immensely, but primarily because MS seems to have wreaked so much havoc with it and can - and will - use it to their advantage. |
| Abe Mar 26, 2007 6:05 PM EDT |
Quoting:I really believe they felt they were working in good faith to support their customers - and the deal surely does just that. Quoting:I dislike the deal immensely, Don, You are giving Novell the benefit of the doubt, that is fine. Let us assume that was the case. At the same time you say "I dislike the deal immensely", does that mean you agree to the GPL modification, as in GPL3, to prevent similar deals from happening in the future? |
| dcparris Mar 26, 2007 6:40 PM EDT |
I'm reserving judgement on this modification. I like the idea but wonder about the feasibility. I do think Dino and others raise points wrt to this issue that are both interesting and valid. I nevertheless hold the position that the covenant "upholds the letter of the license while violating its spirit". I do believe the intent of the GPLv2 was fairly clear. That just my opinion/position though. And please remember to take my opinion with a grain of salt, maybe even two or three. ;-) |
| tuxtom Mar 26, 2007 8:19 PM EDT |
@jdixon: "Whether I agree or not, that probably crosses the line of the TOS, since there's no way it can't be considered political in nature. :(" The TOS are a TOS of convenience...Stallman and Castro were a headline, the Microsoft/Novell controversy is ENTIRELY political...in fact, any discussion of American Capitalism is political. My intention was not to start a "political" discussion, it was to antagonize DarrenR114 for being so uptight about the use of the word treason. (Don't even get me started on those 9/11 follow ups...I find writing Windows 3.11 USB drivers more pertinent.) I'm an American, I live in a Blue State and I use MEPIS. |
| dinotrac Mar 27, 2007 2:30 AM EDT |
tuxtom - I live in a blue state, too. One day, I hope to move back to where the IQs are higher. ;0) |
| Abe Mar 27, 2007 5:29 AM EDT |
Quoting:One day, I hope to move back to where the IQs are higher. ;0) May I suggest a village in TX. Isn't that where you are from originally?;0). Any one know why I can't see those expression faces in my browser? |
| dinotrac Mar 27, 2007 6:15 AM EDT |
>May I suggest a village in TX. Isn't that where you are from originally?;0). Born in Tallahassee, FL, actually, but lived in TX for years. Was a military brat -- though didn't move so much after my father was killed. Northern Illinois is the land of Obama, Durbin, and Ms. Hillary, so the IQ deficit here is quite severe. Fortunately for me, it's not universal. It's even possible to find thoughtful liberals -- though they are an endangered species. |
| bigg Mar 27, 2007 6:48 AM EDT |
I lived in Texas for a few years. IQ was in short supply. Maybe I just wasn't smart enough to recognize it. |
| DarrenR114 Mar 27, 2007 6:59 AM EDT |
@Dino, I grew up in IA - but might I suggest MN - the people of Minneapolis-St. Paul are most friendly *and* intelligent. I think they put up with the cold because all the nuts seem to roll down South where it's warm. |
| dinotrac Mar 27, 2007 7:13 AM EDT |
Darren - You're right about MN, even if they are awash in liberals. Maybe it's a different breed...after all, we are talking about the home of the happy warrior himself, Hubert Humphrey. Another place that sounds appealing is NH. White mountains are gorgeous, and my wife sister lives in Ipswich, MA with her family. MA is actually pretty nice, but far bluer than IL. I might die if spend too much time there. |
| dcparris Mar 27, 2007 7:28 AM EDT |
Hmmm... all these cool places are really far North - as in really *cold* in Winter. I spent 3 months running between Bridgeport California, Fort McCoy Wisconsion (Sparta, anyone?) and Norway (still don't know where). NC ain't too bad, despite my earlier experiences with the chiggers at Camp LeJeune. ;-) |
| jdixon Mar 27, 2007 7:36 AM EDT |
> I grew up in IA - but might I suggest MN - the people of Minneapolis-St. Paul are most friendly *and* intelligent. You mean like Vox Day (http://voxday.blogspot.com)? Warning, the easily politically offended probably should not visit the above site. :) |
| bigg Mar 27, 2007 7:59 AM EDT |
> NC ain't too bad Having lived a few years in NC as well, I'd say they were the nicest people, on average, I've met anywhere. It's just a friendly culture without the big heads you get in Texas - Texans are proud of their state. |
| jdixon Mar 27, 2007 8:08 AM EDT |
> Having lived a few years in NC as well, I'd say they were the nicest people, on average, I've met anywhere. I've found, that outside of a few large cities, the folks are pretty much friendly everywhere. |
| dinotrac Mar 27, 2007 8:40 AM EDT |
Rev - NC is nice indeed. After my father's death, my mom settled us in northern Virginia to be near her family. We got to rural VA (Culpepper), Virginia Beach, Newport News and some points NC (I don't remember where) enough to appreciate the region very much. |
| bigg Mar 27, 2007 8:49 AM EDT |
> the folks are pretty much friendly everywhere. Have you ever been to Michigan? |
| jdixon Mar 27, 2007 8:53 AM EDT |
> Have you ever been to Michigan? I've been through Michigan. We were on our way back from Canada, and came through by Detroit. We didn't have time to stop. |
| bigg Mar 27, 2007 9:09 AM EDT |
You're lucky. You wouldn't have met many friendly people there. According to people who grew up there, it's because certain parts don't get much sunshine. |
| dcparris Mar 27, 2007 9:51 AM EDT |
I think it was Mass. where some guy asked Pa about riding his mule from WV. When Pa replied something to the effect of he could take his mule further across land than the guy could his boat, he seemed to lose his sense of humor. With the exception of getting moved into the high-end room of the local B&B for having a Southern accent (about as Southern as you can have, considering how long he's been in WV), he didn't find people up in New England to be all that friendly. At least not like he's used to. My guess is, people in various places demonstrate friendliness in different ways. Oh sure, buy a guy a beer in any town, and you've probably just made friends. But in some places you may just have to take a swing or two before they decide you're worth having as a friend (some parts of WV). Ma's experience in Germany was that a storekeeper expected her to speak with some force (as opposed to her normal soft Southern Belle manner) before she seemed to accept her. So, to borrow from a former fearless leader, "define friendly". |
| jdixon Mar 27, 2007 9:55 AM EDT |
> ...he didn't find people up in New England to be all that friendly. Well, New England is largely wall to wall cities, so see my above comment. The folks we've met driving through western NY from Erie to Buffalo have all been friendly enough though, so even New England has it's friendly folks. > My guess is, people in various places demonstrate friendliness in different ways. Yes, there are definitely cultural differences involved. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!