Riddle: Which distro described here?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| hkwint Jan 14, 2008 12:28 PM EDT |
OK, I'm looking for the distro which comes closest to satisfying these requirements: -Gratis like in 'free', -It's not Ubuntu, in fact its not Gnome-centric, -This distro's core is not bloated, but its applications are / can be. This means, as little programs pre-installed by default as possible (think Gentoo or NetBSD), though able to install every (bloated popular) package one might want, like OOo or FF, via package management. i.e. able to build a 'mixed environment' choosing the 'best' (or most popular) apps like WindowMaker (not popular, but light WM), GIMP, Krusader, FireFox, OOo, Azureus. -No compiling needed, has automatic dependency checking -Up to date software available, -A lot of users, so the most problems one might encounter are solved yet, and easy to find, -Easy installing non-free drivers and codecs, -Should easily work with devices like DigiCams and USB-scanners, so *BSD is not the best solution to this riddle either. Which distro is it? If you know, please let me know too, since I don't know myself. The best answer to the riddle is probably the distro I will choose to replace Gentoo, which I'm now using. I'm tired of the compilations every week, but I do want to update all my software, probably every week. I have read DistroWatch, reviews and Wikipedia for more than three consecutive hours yesterday I guess, and I have been looking for even longer, but still no answer to this riddle. Most popular distro's fail one or more requirements. -Most of Mandriva is not Gratis, AFAIK. -Fedora is probably not the solution. It doesn't contain non-free software by default and it is Gnome centric I understood. Since Gnome deletes features in favour of usability for new users, it is not suited for a 'power user' like I am (considered to be, but on the other hand I want to be 'productive within minutes', so not too much config-hassle). Sabayon is a bit bloated in my opinion, and it's nasty to update the software if you don't use Sabayons next version (have to use Gentoo portage) . Or is updating to the next Sabayon version easy? -Maybe it's Kubuntu; but then Kubuntu should be distinctive from Ubuntu, as my Ubuntu experiences are rather bad. PCLOS does contain the non-free stuff I need, by default as far as I know, but the default install is rather large. I'm not very against KDE as a WM either, I might even try it. -I looked at the Slackware-based distributions which do have auto dependency checking, but most of them are made for workstations or are really lightweight (like VectorLinux), which means installing bloated software like FireFox and OpenOffice and the like are not very well supported by the distro & forums, but I might be wrong. Let me know! -I thought about running Debian unstable. However, that would include untested Debian patches. I want something that is at least as stable as the packages Gentoo deems stable (not masked, no keywords). Anyone has experience with this? SimplyMEPIS often doesn't contain the newest versions of popular software either, I understand. -OpenSuse is rather slow in my opinion, and while I do want to support OpenSuse I'd rather not support Novell at the same time. Hmm, that's a difficult riddle. PCLOS MineME might be the best solution as I'm reviewing what I've just written. I think I'm going to try it. |
| azerthoth Jan 14, 2008 12:48 PM EDT |
hkwint I have news for you, there is a gentoo deriv that is getting ready to do that. Sabayon is in testing of loop 1 (beta1) of Sabayon 3.5. Which among other things will include Entropy, binary package installation while maintaining Gentoo source compatibility, which means no compiling and easy updates. I have been testing it for the last week, and being beta still has some bugs which can be overcome, but so far Entropy in its infancy is easily as powerful as apt. In keeping with Gentoo though if one truly wishes to use source the option is still available. The release of Sabayon 3.5 holds to be an example of the shape of things that should be. |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 14, 2008 12:52 PM EDT |
> I thought about running Debian unstable. However, that would include untested Debian patches. ... Anyone has experience with this? Yes. I've been running Unstable for 8 years, and I can tell you that it is utterly, totally, stable. What is _unstable_ are the packages themselves. The repository is updated constantly, so if you update and upgrade without paying attention, you might get a conflict or two a year. Here's what you do: Get the net-install (180 MB) CD, and _don't_ install "desktop". Just "standard". Once that's done, you can add "xorg" and xfce, whatever. No need for a KDE or Gnome monster. |
| vainrveenr Jan 14, 2008 12:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:thought about running Debian unstable. However, that would include untested Debian patches. I want something that is at least as stable as the packages Gentoo deems stable (not masked, no keywords). Anyone has experience with this? SimplyMEPIS often doesn't contain the newest versions of popular software either, I understand.Coinceidentally, there is a recent LXer piece directly on this, 'SimplyMEPIS-7.0 - Beyond Dapper!' at http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/98201/index.html#thread... If seeking a Linux distro such as linuxseeker ;-), then SimplyMEPIS might now be worth a second look before rushing off to PCLOS. Warren switched SimplyMEPIS to Debian Stable as a codebase, which may bring some positives and negatives with this RE: above reqs. FWIW, Warren has done a good to excellent job with past MEPIS versions, so 7.0 could be a risk well-worth taking. 2c |
| ColonelPanik Jan 14, 2008 12:55 PM EDT |
Debian? You can do a minimal install and then add just what you need.
Huge repositories, automatic dependency checking. Just FOSS or what
Non-Free you choose. When it is done, it will just work and work and work. But, if it is a laptop your doing you had better be good or you had better use PCLOS. |
| hkwint Jan 14, 2008 1:05 PM EDT |
OK, thanks for the suggestions. Azerthoth: Though I tried Sabayon and did an interview with Fabio, I'm not really sure about Sabayon, but as a Gentoo user it looks like a good alternative. However, how does the update process work, for example to 3.6 in the future? Bob: That's what I wanted to hear. Thanks! vainrveenr: Stupid, as a LXer-editor I should read or at least be aware of LXer articles... Colonel: Thanks, it's not a laptop, just two (at the moment, one is going 'away' on a kind of eBay) desktops here. Secretly I'm thinking to buy a HP laptop - just for the fun of seeing if I'm able to get a refund, since HP claims they're not obliged to give one. |
| vainrveenr Jan 14, 2008 1:18 PM EDT |
Quoting:vainrveenr: Stupid, as a LXer-editor I should read or at least be aware of LXer articles....... and yet Michael Shee Choon Beng concludes near the end of the :inuxseeker piece, http://www.linuxseekers.com/content/view/227/1/, regarding SimplyMEPIS Quoting: What is it like beyond Dapper? With SimplyMEPIS 7.0, we have more up-to-date applications (compiled for the MEPIS pool) besides the eighteen thousand plus of already available packages in Debian Etch repository! SimplyMEPIS 7.0 have also attained rock solid stability with Debian Etch as the core. With the backing of the security patches from the debian repository, users will have no worries about timely-released security patches. Whether it will do well with its new way of periodical minor and major incremental updates, without needing to upgrade via a new distribution-release-CD will be everyone's guess, since this only version 7.0. I hope the MEPIS team of developers will succeed in this famous and favourable Debian approach.From this, SimplyMEPIS's tight coupling with Debian coincides with the pro-Debian comments surrounding the previous SimplyMEPIS suggestion above and below. Also, Michael Shee Choon Beng seems to address in fairly glowing terms exactly how SimplyMEPIS fulfills each of the bulleted reqs at the top of this thread. ....and this particular commentator even prefers PCLOS over MEPIS (albeit for different reqs/reasons) |
| hkwint Jan 14, 2008 1:37 PM EDT |
I just read the SimpleMEPIS review, and I like what I saw. It's MEPIS and Debian packages (Unstable? Testing? Not really sure here) combined; its what I will try. Also, I'll setup qemu (or VMWare if qemu can't run WindowsXP/SP2 since I need a nasty XP/SP2-only CAD program, but I believe qemu does support XP/SP2) to try some other distro's too, especially PCLOS MineME and Sabayon 3."newest". |
| azerthoth Jan 14, 2008 1:46 PM EDT |
hkwint very simple, "equo world" pulls in everything and does everything, kernel, GRUB, modules, etc. Then unpacks and installs much like apt but faster. equo install , and alot of the flags that you are used to with emerge are still there -s, --force, --deep and so on if you wish to use them. Fabio is doing a great job at fixing bugs as well, as soon as one crops up he smashes it flat, usually within 24 hours. You can already use it to upgrade an existing 3.4 install to the beta (with luck). By the time 3.5 goes stable you will be able to switch branches 3.4, 3.5, 3.6, etc with no more worried than if you switch Debian from stable to testing. In theory he wants it to be able to take any Gentoo installation and be able to convert it with the same ease. It is really an interesting time for Sabayon. |
| Sander_Marechal Jan 14, 2008 2:39 PM EDT |
Quoting:> I thought about running Debian unstable. However, that would include untested Debian patches. ... Anyone has experience with this? And if you can't even bother to pay attention to that, use Debian testing instead. All the goodies from Debian unstable but unstable packages don't come in until the conflicts have been resolved. Debian testing (Lenny) is really good. There's just one catch: When a new Debian stable is released (i.e. Lenny becomes stable and a new testing is created), you need to switch over to that new stable for at least 6 months or so. That's because in the months after a new stable release, all the stuff that has been waiting in unstable and experimental will flood into testing at once, which might be a bit too much. The easiest way to do this is to make sure that your apt configuation refers to "debian lenny" and not "debian testing" after you installed your system. Then this will all go automatically. |
| flufferbeer Jan 14, 2008 2:45 PM EDT |
@vainrveenr
Makes much sense, but several issues:
1. Your link can give an access permission error. Better to use the front link http://www.linuxseekers.com/component/option,com_frontpage/I... and directly goto the SimplyMEPIS 7.0 review from here.
2. SimplyMEPIS does not exactly fulfill hkwint's requirement of "able to build a 'mixed environment' choosing the 'best' (or most popular) apps like WindowMaker (not popular, but light WM), GIMP, Krusader, FireFox, OOo, Azureus"
3. You might have addressed those considering Debian itself by better pointing to resources for a distro with "A lot of users, so the most problems one might encounter are solved yet, and easy to find".
Using the linuxseekers website you quoted, I found ten user-support links for Debian at http://www.linuxseekers.com/component/option,com_weblinks/ca...
..... and only ONE! directly on SimplyMEPIS. I would agree with Bob above, that Debian Unstable would be a great choice here. Besides being directly a Debian full installation rather than a pre-processed Debian, we all can now try-before-we-buy debian (so to speak) by using a non KDE/GNOME liveCD or the minmal installations that Bob and CP write about. I use Debian this way and prefer Debian over PCLinuxOS, SimplMEPIS and one of the past Sabayon's myself. Think of it this way (note that this is from a flufferbeer) as an analogy to distro choices: In homebrewing beer, there are three levels of expertise, revolving in increasingly sophisticated levels around Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced. A. The Beginner buys the basic homebrewing kit, boils the pre-made mix and throws this into the fermenting utensils to make a standard and basic formula brew. Well-tested and the most consistent, but more average compared to the below. B. The Intermediate buys some things pre-mixed, but much of the ingredients&utensils are assembled separately outside of kit. Much more time and effort to brew, but more control and a better-tasting brew than the Beginner one. C. The Advanced brewer buys as much as possible raw or from scratch. The minmum of brewing from formula, the maximum control and time-consumption, and (hopefully) the best tasting brew. Going in reverse, the Advanced brewer is more like someone who compiles the entire Linux system from source code. Consumes much time and attention to detail, but the fastest custom-tailored system and the greatest control. Such a Linux choice is NOT in hkwint's list. My most appropriate Linux distro recomm of Debian is likened to the Intermediate brewer. The best balance of ease of use, control, efficiency, time, ... etcetera. The Beginner homebrewer is most like using the formula pre-tested distros Sabayon, PCLinuxOS and SimplyMEPIS. You get a less end-user control system (like WM) and this will work great or as claimed. Not as finely tailored to any exact requirements you have though, as the base distro of the Intermediate Debian (my choice). One thing to mention here different from homebrewing, though, is that except for maybe non-free drivers and codecs, all the distros mentioned here so far are supposed to be "free as in beer" :D fb |
| jdixon Jan 14, 2008 3:08 PM EDT |
For Debian based distros, your best bet is probably Mint, though Mepis may also work. Debian itself is always and option. For Slackware based distros, take a look at Zenwalk. I believe it supports Firefox and OpenOffice out of the box, and you have access to the entire Slackware and Slackbuilds universe of packages. For Gentoo, it looks like Sabayon is your best bet. For anything else, your best bet is probably PCLinuxOS. You might want to take a look at Arch Linux. I've heard good things about it, but never bothered to follow up. That pretty much exhausts my knowledge of current good distros. I'm a Slackware person myself. |
| rijelkentaurus Jan 14, 2008 3:42 PM EDT |
Quoting: For Debian based distros, your best bet is probably Mint, though Mepis may also work. My secondary laptop (bought from a coworker for $75) is a StinkPad with a P4m 1.6ghz and 256mb RAM, and ATI graphics. Mint ran like absolute sludge on it, Mepis runs like it has a gig of RAM. There is absolutely no comparison between those distros, Mepis wins hands down and blows the doors off of any 'buntu. Even Xubuntu has become a heavyweight distro. PCLOS is great. I am now running MiniMe 2008, runs like a scalded dog and is the fastest KDE distro I have ever used, although Mepis is close. It has almost nothing on it, but every major application you could want is out there. If you need more than that, it's usually easy to find RPMs at pbone.net. |
| bigg Jan 14, 2008 5:09 PM EDT |
Arch is a good choice. AFAIK it fulfills all of your wishes (I'm a recent convert over the last few months). -Gratis like in 'free', Definitely. It's unlikely to ever become commercialized. -It's not Ubuntu, in fact its not Gnome-centric, You start with a minimal installation and add whatever you want. -This distro's core is not bloated, but its applications are / can be. This means, as little programs pre-installed by default as possible (think Gentoo or NetBSD), though able to install every (bloated popular) package one might want, like OOo or FF, via package management. i.e. able to build a 'mixed environment' choosing the 'best' (or most popular) apps like WindowMaker (not popular, but light WM), GIMP, Krusader, FireFox, OOo, Azureus. I have a lot of package needs, some specialized, and have had no difficulty getting binaries of everything. It has plenty of DE/WM options, with documentation. -No compiling needed, has automatic dependency checking Pacman receives wonderful reviews from everyone that uses it. I like it better than apt, which is saying a lot. Coming from Gentoo I'm sure you will not completely want to give up compiling. ABS is a great tool for compiling when you are in the mood. All compiled software is installed with Pacman. All packages are the same regardless of whether you compile them or if you download a binary package. That's not true with some distros. (ABS is a 'ports-like' system) -Up to date software available, They pride themselves on being cutting edge. It's more cutting edge than Debian testing for sure, probably even compared to Sid, but I haven't much messed with Sid. -A lot of users, so the most problems one might encounter are solved yet, and easy to find, Many users, and importantly, competent users. Every problem I've had has had a solution without asking. Their documentation is excellent, so I haven't had many problems. The focus on simplicity really does make life easy. -Easy installing non-free drivers and codecs, My experience says it is easy, but I don't have many needs in this area. -Should easily work with devices like DigiCams and USB-scanners, so *BSD is not the best solution to this riddle either. I've had no problems. |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 15, 2008 5:49 AM EDT |
I like this: everyone has what works for them. So much for "too many choices"! |
| Steven_Rosenber Jan 15, 2008 12:36 PM EDT |
I'm putting in my vote for Wolvix Hunter (http://www.wolvix.org). I've blogged about it so much, y'all are probably sick of it, but it's the best mix on Slackware that I've had the pleasure of using. Based on Slackware 11, it has both Xfce and Fluxbox, and the Hunter version (bigger than the smaller Cub) includes OpenOffice, plus plenty of imaging and multimedia software. And one of the things I forgot to mention is that the remarkably well-wrought Wolvix installer (part of the Wolvix Control Panel) does either a frugal or full install and -- much to my happiness and overall comfort level -- uses GRUB instead of LILO. |
| tracyanne Jan 15, 2008 12:48 PM EDT |
Puppy comes to mind. But if we're looking at Saybayon or PCLOS than you should also look at Mandriva One. |
| jdixon Jan 15, 2008 12:56 PM EDT |
> Puppy comes to mind. When last I checked, Puppy ran as root by default, and changing that was apparently not a task for the timid. That eliminated it for use as more than a live CD for me. > Wolvix Hunter From what I've seen, I'd say Zenwalk is better for most people, but anything that's Slackware based (save Puppy, see above) is good. |
| hkwint Jan 15, 2008 2:20 PM EDT |
Thanks everybody. Lots of distro's to try, and only little time... I sure need a Virtual Machine. While reading, I'm still figuring out what I want. Choosing a distro depending on gut-feelings is no problem at all, everyone has a distro he or she likes - because of the people, the look of the website, the kind of users, the forums, etc. For me this has been Gentoo. However, putting what you actually really want on paper (or 'on forum') discarding the possible outcome - which might contradict your gut-feelings, and then choosing the best distro for your requirements is rather hard. Also, knowing what you want at all is hard I discovered. When I see Sabayon's, desktop for example, it makes me happy, because I can use it to boast about how nobody needs Vista because Sabayon has 'even more' eye-candy, and because I can show a few Linux-FPS-games. Almost any popular Linux application is installed by default, and multiple programs are installed which perform the same task. Never need to install anything, everything is already there. It's great to have bloat and reach the point where nothing can be added. On the other hand, I'm really glad with my current configuration. An almost empty desktop, no start menu or icons. All programs I often use have their own shortcut key combined with the WinKey. WinE for the Eterm, WinF for Firefox, WinX for music (used XMMS in the past) and WinShiftE for (wine-emulated) Euroglot 3.0, almost my most important application. There's nothing on my PC I didn't install myself, and because of the USEflags, all is pretty optimized in size (no single program offers Xinerama support for example). It's great to have ass little as possible, and reach the point where nothing can be left away. But if I want to test something new because I read an enthusiastic article, but knowing I might delete that new program (the writer might have been too enthusiastic) before a week has passed, Gentoo is a pain in the bottom. When I was unhappy with audacious and wanted to test 'shiny' Amarok I had to wait for a day before it was there. If I were (hypothetically) to try Xinerama and write a review, I had to recompile almost the whole system (thanks to modular Xorg, a lot less than I used too). If Gentoo decides kdebase will be split between 40+ packages - which they did, I have to uninstall my kdebase, decide which of those 40+ packages I want, install the 20+ packages - since I won't install the 20 I don't need, and while that's compiling I can't use any K*. I'm using Firefox right now, but it starts feeling a bit bloated too. So what I basically seem to want (and probably more people, that's why I'm writing this all down), is to test new programs with ease, but at the same time have a save harbour. I'm using OpenOffice now, but it's really big. I'd like to try Gnumeric (never installed it) and AbiWord (only once used it three years ago), but if they're better than OOo or in contrary don't live up to my requirements or if I need HD-space, I want to be able to ditch them. However, if somebody says: Check out the new version of OOo! two days after I threw it away because AbiWord meets my needs, I want to be able to switch again. And again, and again, and again... Lots of testing, looking and trying, without too much hassle. When there's a new (tiny) handy program which isn't packaged yet, I want to be able to try it as well by compiling it myself (this happened to me with philesight in the past). Also, I sometimes screwed up Gentoo so badly that X (if I was lucky) or 'login' (if I was not lucky) wouldn't start anymore, and I wasn't able to use my PC even for looking up a number in the 'phonenumber-guide online', plan a route to travel by car, or transfer money by means of e-banking. Therefore, I'd like a kind of 'safe harbour'. This could be a second PC, but I'd like to sell that one, a LiveCD, but those always get lost in my room somewhere or they are scratched, a cheap USB stick fitted into the back of the computer and doing nothing when not needed (good idea BTW), a Virtual Machine, or a spare partition. Since I was able to screw up my PC in such a way that my Virtual Machine and 'spare partition' ('spare space') were lost as well, I might be better of with an entire spare harddrive. Also, I want to be able to do everything manual, like installing & configuring a new kernel and updating menu.lst from Grub, but if I'm lazy, I'd like a pre-made initrd including auto-hardware detection with a Grub-update script (the Debian way I think) as well. So, basically, my requirements are able: A "safe harbour", ability to manual edit configs / packages etc. and support to do so, but also as much automation scripts and GUI's (at least available) as possible. Finally it seems I know what I want. Phew, nice! From this thread, it seems the best candidates are, in order from 'best' to 'should give it a try also': 1) Debian Testing / SimplyMEPIS 2) PCLOS MineMe / ArchLinux 3) Mandriva (the gratis)One / Wolvix Hunter / ZenWalk The ones at number three might need comments: I knew of the free variants of Mandriva, but I was not enthusiast about it, until I read Mandriva's recent new commitment to their gratis distro's. I also looked at Wolvix in the past - and I knew someone over here made me interested in it (thanks Steve!), but I could only find the 'normal' Wolvix. I also looked at Zenwalk, but the lean XFCE desktop made me doubt about the availability of bloated stuff like OOo and FF. That's not a concern anymore, and I would've known had I read it was 'Slackware aimed at Internet MultiMedia". I'd like to keep you up to date with my findings, but the problem is I started at my new job yesterday, I still have assignments for school to finish and make, I need to clean out my 'real-life paper' documents, I need to copy my 'saved' MP3's from my broke EVMS-array to my working array and 'wipe' the lost EVMS 'array', exchange the cases of my 2 PC's and sell one on 'Dutch eBay', and finish my LXer article on open source in Dutch government (halfway I guess, started it end Dec. 2007!). Also, I have to keep up to date with everything open source / free sofwrae etc, and post some articles to LXer. And did I mention I also have a chronic disease? So I'd better go sleeping know;) Thanks everyone for participating and helping me out on my decision. I hope to write about my experiences soon, but as told, don't hold your breathe! |
| Steven_Rosenber Jan 15, 2008 2:33 PM EDT |
Grafpup (http://grafpup.org/) takes Puppy and adds non-root multiuser capability. And while I still like Wolvix better, I concede that both Zenwalk and Vector have much larger, active user communities on their forums. ... |
| jdixon Jan 15, 2008 2:48 PM EDT |
> Grafpup... Thanks for the link Steven. I'll check it out when I have time. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jan 15, 2008 3:45 PM EDT |
Wolvix Hunter has OpenOffice, the smaller Wolvix Cub doesn't. Wolvix pulls packages from both its own repository as well as the full Slackware 11, so anything Slackware has, you can theoretically add. And while Zenwalk doesn't include more than one app per task by default, its repositories are surprisingly up to date. Once you install Zenwalk, you can add OpenOffice, or even KDE and GNOME if you wish, so you don't have to worry about not liking Xfce. One thing with Zenwalk -- which I absolutely think you should try -- when you set it up, put /home on its own partition so you can swap out the distro if you don't like it ... or for the "next" release of Zenwalk. A few months ago, I installed Zenwalk 4.6.1, and when I did an update with the GUI package manager, it rolled in all the 4.8 packages and rendered the whole thing unbootable. I didn't lose anything -- I hadn't even used it yet -- but keep /home separate (and backed up) and you'll be OK. I don't know how Vector handles version upgrades, but unless something has changed, Zenwalk doesn't handle them well at all -- you pretty much have to start over with every new release. |
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