But how many of them actually run a MacOS?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tracyanne Jul 22, 2008 8:46 PM EDT |
If I were to buy a MacBook, the first thing I would do is replace the MacOS with Mandriva Linux, exactly the same as what I do if I buy a laptop with Windows preinstalled. I don't even bother to start the machine up with the proprietary OS. I make sure it's working fine with a Live CD then it's proprietary rubbish begone. |
| herzeleid Jul 22, 2008 9:08 PM EDT |
Well I'd quickly nuke a microsoft os from any hardware I buy, since I have no use whatever for that sort of nonsense - but mac OSX is a different story IMHO - it's a cousin of linux under the hood, and being unixy, it can interoperate well with linux in ways that microsoft just can't. e.g. ssh, rsync etc. That said, I'd probably have more fun with ubuntu on a macbook pro that with the apple OS, and linux would be my main OS, but I'd keep a small OSX partition, for running things like tax cut once a year. |
| tracyanne Jul 22, 2008 9:10 PM EDT |
It might be second cousin to Linux (in that it's Unix based) but it's as proprietary as, and as restrictive as, Windows, and it's not even as easy to use. So I'd nuke it without a second thought, then install Mandriva Linux. |
| gus3 Jul 22, 2008 9:47 PM EDT |
My experiment would be to keep the BSD kernel and put on a Linux-style user-space. Then again, since FreeBSD already has a Linux kernel entry point, I could probably keep the kernel and just unpack the Linux outer layers in-place. But am I really going to shell out big ca$h for such an experiment? Highly unlikely. |
| rijelkentaurus Jul 23, 2008 3:50 AM EDT |
Well, it's great hardware...and it's crap tech support...that makes it not worth the money. Dell is so-so hardware, with great tech support on their professional line, which makes it worth the (lots less) money. The Cult of Mac has way overpriced their hardware, and way overestimate the usability and worthiness of their OS. |
| hkwint Jul 23, 2008 6:34 AM EDT |
[/quote]But how many of them actually run a MacOS?[/quote] I've been to FOSDEM in Bruxelles; (one of?) Europe's largest Free Software developer gathering. Indeed, about 30% af the attendees who have a laptop with them have a Mac, but like Tracy suggests around 90%+ of them run Linux. Howevere, note that FOSDEM is about Free Software while OSCON is about Open Source. Quoting:My experiment would be to keep the BSD kernel and put on a Linux-style user-space. I'd say GentooBSD! |
| gus3 Jul 23, 2008 7:51 AM EDT |
Isn't GentooBSD mostly a port of Portage into the BSD user-space? I'm talking about a total Frankenstein-monster system. A SysV init from Fedora on a BSD kernel. You know, making the code do things the authors never expected to happen. |
| dinotrac Jul 23, 2008 8:36 AM EDT |
>Isn't GentooBSD mostly a port of Portage into the BSD user-space Now that's totally strange, given that Portage is basically a linux implementation of the BSD ports system. |
| tuxchick Jul 23, 2008 9:28 AM EDT |
Now I'm all confused- why would anyone want to buy a Mac in the first place, when they want to run Linux? |
| herzeleid Jul 23, 2008 9:34 AM EDT |
> Now I'm all confused- why would anyone want to buy a Mac in the first place, when they want to run Linux? Cool hardware. |
| tuxchick Jul 23, 2008 9:41 AM EDT |
Quoting: > Now I'm all confused- why would anyone want to buy a Mac in the first place, when they want to run Linux? You mean the looks? 'Cause it's all x86 and SATA and standard RAM and mobos now, is it not? |
| gus3 Jul 23, 2008 9:44 AM EDT |
What was non-standard about the RAM before? I remember helping someone add RAM to a Mac in 1993, and it looked just like regular PC RAM, except for the extra ECC chip. I think the module was a 30-pin DIMM. |
| Scott_Ruecker Jul 23, 2008 10:27 AM EDT |
Quoting:Now I'm all confused- why would anyone want to buy a Mac in the first place, when they want to run Linux? I agree, for the cost of a new Macbook I could buy all of the computers I now own with money left over probably. |
| techiem2 Jul 23, 2008 11:00 AM EDT |
I actually looked a bit at them when I was shopping for my laptop. I would have had to spend at least twice as much for a machine with similar specs. |
| herzeleid Jul 23, 2008 12:00 PM EDT |
> You mean the looks? 'Cause it's all x86 and SATA and standard RAM and mobos now, is it not? It's the fit and finish - the magnetic power connector (very handy for preventing catastrophe when someone trips over the power cord) the hypnotic modulation of the front panel light when the laptop is asleep the simple yet tasteful apple logo on the lid, which says "hey, this isn't just some silly windows peecee!" OK, so it's more expensive than your typical low end dell, to be sure - I say let the market decide whether it's worth the money. |
| hkwint Jul 23, 2008 12:02 PM EDT |
Quoting:Isn't GentooBSD mostly a port of Portage into the BSD user-spaceNo, look here: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/bsd/fbsd/ Quoting:why would anyone want to buy a Mac in the first place Quoting:You mean the looks? 1 word: Compensation. |
| rijelkentaurus Jul 23, 2008 12:57 PM EDT |
Quoting: OK, so it's more expensive than your typical low end dell, to be sure Let's be fair and honest...it's more expensive than the typical high end Dell, and I can get those preinstalled with RHEL. |
| herzeleid Jul 23, 2008 1:16 PM EDT |
Quoting: Let's be fair and honest...it's more expensive than the typical high end Dell, and I can get those preinstalled with RHEL.RHEL? not my first choice for a laptop OS - pretty near the bottom in fact. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jul 23, 2008 3:35 PM EDT |
The Mac hardware ain't all that and a bag of chips, especially the laptops, without OS X. I'd be interested in how the power management and Xorg configurations went, but that could be easily determined with a live CD. I guess you could dual-boot at least. When you pay for a Mac, you may be overpaying, but what you're paying for in large part is OS X. We all complain about the MS tax, but the Apple tax is probably a whole lot higher, and we are all guilty of giving Apple a pass in that regard. Maybe it's because Apple is only trying to protect its "turf," although said turf is built on the backs of non-proprietary code from the BSDs. |
| herzeleid Jul 23, 2008 8:01 PM EDT |
Quoting: We all complain about the MS tax, but the Apple tax is probably a whole lot higher, and we are all guilty of giving Apple a pass in that regard. Maybe it's because Apple is only trying to protect its "turf"um, no.. It's because it's very very easy to buy a computer without OSX - hence there is no "apple tax". OTOH, try to buy a laptop from any big vendor - Dell, HP, whatever - without being bombarded with "dell recommends windows vista" or some nonsense, and having to pay for a bundled copy of ms windows - and just try getting a refund for the copy of vista that you don't want and will never use! Now do you understand the difference? |
| thenixedreport Jul 23, 2008 8:11 PM EDT |
Actually, I need to point something out to everyone. OS X can be made to work on computers other than those sold by Apple, which shows us just one thing: Apple is overcharging for their hardware. |
| rijelkentaurus Jul 23, 2008 8:29 PM EDT |
Quoting: RHEL? not my first choice for a laptop OS - pretty near the bottom in fact. My point being that it's preinstalled with Linux. And laptop or not, so long as the wireless is working, Red Hat is a wonderful distro. And while it's quite possible to buy a computer without OS X, it's impossible to buy a Mac without it. And Dell's N series comes without an OS...and without the crapware that pushes the actual cost of the OS down, hence the relative low difference in price between the N series and the normal series. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jul 23, 2008 8:55 PM EDT |
It's still an Apple tax because you can't buy Apple hardware without buying OS X. |
| gus3 Jul 23, 2008 9:42 PM EDT |
I dare anyone here to go into an Apple store and ask how much for a Mac with no pre-installed OS. And if you do, please report back with the results. I would do it, but I have no idea where the closest Apple store is. I'm certain it's at least an 80-minute drive from home. |
| thenixedreport Jul 23, 2008 10:18 PM EDT |
@gus3 I'm sure they'll tell you they all have an OS on it. The thing that gets me is that OS X can work on generic x86-based systems, which thus demonstrates that Apple is overcharging for their hardware. |
| dinotrac Jul 23, 2008 10:41 PM EDT |
>It's still an Apple tax because you can't buy Apple hardware without buying OS X. Sigh. Oh Tuxchick, does nobody listen to you? Does nobody comprehend? TC is 100% spot on: There is no point in buying Macs without OS X. The whole point of a Mac -- and what it has been advertised to be since those very first Macs way back in 1984 -- is being a computer for "the rest of us". Not a cool collection of hardware, but computers that work in a certain way. They are software/hardware systems (hmmm -- kind of like cars, when you get down to it) that create an experience to make life nice for "the rest of us". Mac hardware is cool, but not nearly cool enough to justify the price. Other makers have put out some pretty darned cool hardware, too. Without the OS, it isn't a Mac, it's merely Mac hardware, and Macs, if you like them, are far cooler than Mac hardware. In that sense, OS-X can not constitute a Mac tax. It ain't a Mac without the OS. Plus, of course, Apple doesn't have market power. If all you want is a piece of hardware, there are lots of places to buy hardware without paying Mac prices. If you're dumb enough to buy Mac hardware for the purpose of putting some other software on it, that's your stupidity, not Apple's tax. |
| tracyanne Jul 23, 2008 10:47 PM EDT |
And that dino is why I won't buy a Mac |
| dinotrac Jul 23, 2008 10:48 PM EDT |
hans:
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/articles/making-the-distro-p3.x... Specifically: Most of all, I was impressed with FreeBSD's ports system, the technology used to maintain and upgrade the system. Unlike the Linux approach, ports didn't use binary packages but instead automatically compiled everything locally from their original sources. and FreeBSD gave me a really good idea of how an autobuild system should function. I decided to add several FreeBSD features to make our autobuild system (now called Portage) a true next-generation ports system. |
| jdixon Jul 24, 2008 7:20 AM EDT |
> And that dino is why I won't buy a Mac Likewise. I have considered buying one for my wife on occasion, but the sticker shock always stops me. Instead, we just buy generic hardware and reload her ancient copy of Windows 2000 on it. At least I've convinced her to move her primary machine to Linux now and keep her Windows machine for games and a couple of specific Windows only apps she needs (we looking at a virtual machine for the apps, but the games look like they'll always be Windows only), |
| herzeleid Jul 24, 2008 9:42 AM EDT |
> I would do it, but I have no idea where the closest Apple store is. I'm certain it's at least an 80-minute drive from home. In other words, way, apple has no leverage, and it's safe to say that they are in no position to impose a general "tax" since they serve a niche market. Others have said that because OSX can be made to work on other platforms, that proves that apple hardware is overpriced. IMHO a non sequitur - the dots don't connect for me. As far as overcharging, I can only say that if apple is charging what the market will bear, and are doing well financially, the grim science of economics says their hardware is priced just right. |
| thenixedreport Jul 24, 2008 11:52 AM EDT |
But herzeleid... One isn't buying Apple for the "quality" but for the brand name. In other words, it's only the brand that a consumer is buying, and I wish more people would wake up to that reality as well. If they were not out of the price range of a lot of people, more would be switching to Apple-based solutions. However, there is this mantra that since it's Apple, it has to be expensive.... when they utilize the same components that standard OEMs use. I'm just waiting for someone to take FreeBSD and make a competitive OS to Apple's OS. If I had the skill (let alone the patience) I would do it myself. |
| herzeleid Jul 24, 2008 12:11 PM EDT |
> I'm just waiting for someone to take FreeBSD and make a competitive OS to Apple's OS. meh, that's essentially what OSX is - I vote for a version based on linux! |
| rijelkentaurus Jul 24, 2008 12:24 PM EDT |
Quoting: meh, that's essentially what OSX is - I vote for a version based on linux! It's called Mandriva. ;^P |
| thenixedreport Jul 24, 2008 1:52 PM EDT |
It could be FreeBSD that had a Linux subsystem (so that drivers for the Linux kernel could also be made to work with the OS.... then again.... it may be my ignorance speaking... lol). I would call the company Orange. As for the computers themselves..... I can't think of a cutsey name for them at the moment. |
| tuxtom Jul 24, 2008 2:15 PM EDT |
...long time no see... I agree with Tuxchick 100%. I have put Linux on a couple x86 Macs (BlackMacBook and a 20" iMac). It really wasn't worth the effort. OS X is a great OS...if that's your thing. If it's not then I'm really missing something. Their hardware is kinda sexy, but if you are really that attracted to characteristics like that then you probably aren't too involved in your OS environment beyond what would be considered "fashion". Dollar for dollar you can have two (or more) nice machines for the price of one Mac. And Mac hardware is not really all it's cut out to be. It scratches up quite easily ,which really bites into the glassy sex appeal that you bought it for to begin with. With a Mac the feeling of dejection that comes from even putting minor scratches on the machine becomes painfully exacerbated. I'm not a big fan of Dell but I've had some pretty darn good experiences with their hardware and Linux recently. My 1420n notebook w/1440x900 screen approaches bliss without using any restricted drivers. I've also used their lower-end Inspiron Ubuntu desktops which are very nice and sub-$400. Besides, if your are really Penguin Kool you use no-label hardware, anyway. |
| thenixedreport Jul 24, 2008 2:38 PM EDT |
Come on.... there's gotta be a name for a computer that sounds as cute as the "Macintosh." Perhaps shaping it after a plum (and having a digital media player referred to as a banana). |
| dinotrac Jul 24, 2008 2:43 PM EDT |
>Come on.... there's gotta be a name for a computer that sounds as cute as the "Macintosh." Perhaps shaping it after a plum (and having a digital media player referred to as a banana). I'm guessing the "Hemorrhoid" isn't it. |
| thenixedreport Jul 24, 2008 4:07 PM EDT |
@dino Thanks for that man. You have no idea how much that cheered me up.... :) |
| tuxchick Jul 24, 2008 4:23 PM EDT |
If the "Hemorrhoid" isn't the codename for every Windows release ever, it should be. |
| dinotrac Jul 24, 2008 5:36 PM EDT |
Codename? I thought it was official. |
| rijelkentaurus Jul 24, 2008 6:08 PM EDT |
Codename: Hemorrhoid Official: PITA Right on both counts. |
| thenixedreport Jul 24, 2008 7:02 PM EDT |
Quoting:Official: PITA That's it! Thanks rijelkentaurus! You made my day. Now I have it! Company: Orange Computers Product Line: Pitas (as in the food, not the acronym). There would be a normal Pita and the Pita-book! :) |
| dinotrac Jul 24, 2008 10:53 PM EDT |
>There would be a normal Pita and the Pita-book! :) Nah. It would be Pita and Pocketbook. |
| jacog Jul 24, 2008 11:38 PM EDT |
BAD TASTE WARNING: ( so you can't say I did not warn you ) Like 15 years ago there were this joke going around that was more a jab at Mac users than Macs ... Definition: Macintosh, n Computer system large enough so it cannot accidentally be inserted into the user's rectum, but with round edges, incase he actually manages to do so. EDIT: should have included a bad typing warning also |
| tracyanne Jul 24, 2008 11:50 PM EDT |
That reminds me of a NZ Radio/TV personality and a jar of Marmite......... no best I don't go there. |
| jdixon Jul 25, 2008 4:13 AM EDT |
I knew this thread was going downhill as soon as nixed mentioned plums and a banana, which may bring something to mind, but it's probably not a computer. |
| jacog Jul 25, 2008 4:40 AM EDT |
Fruit salad? :) |
| dinotrac Jul 25, 2008 8:54 AM EDT |
>Fruit salad? :) Only in some areas. |
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