Strangely Defensive
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| montezuma Sep 19, 2009 3:46 PM EDT |
The tone of this post is pretty strident. What the author seems to be saying is that boys are better than girls at math and that is why FOSS is dominated by men. Cultural sexism in the community is irrelevant to him. The stuff about the inferior-parietal lobule (IPL) is quite bizarre. As far as I know there is not definite proof that the size of this has a control over mathematical aptitude. In fact this careful review of studies http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thehumancondition/archive/200... strongly suggests the opposite conclusion that differences in this area are primarily culturally determined. In the end though what is wrong with the FOSS community avoiding sexism? It isn't hard and there really is no downside. Sounds like this guy got into a fight with an "inferior" female at some point who made him feel small. Get over it. |
| tuxchick Sep 19, 2009 3:51 PM EDT |
Just another passionate defense of asshattery, with some amusing faux science thrown in, and the requisite tangents and falsehoods. (I wonder if there is a quota.) Kind of like listening to Microsoft flacks and apologists. It's not that complicated-- sexism is a problem in FOSS, and it can be fixed. As to whether any particular individuals should care, or try to help, that's a personal decision, everyone chooses their own battles. |
| theboomboomcars Sep 19, 2009 4:03 PM EDT |
It really bothers me when people claim that they are a certain way so there is nothing they can do about it. One of the things that distinguishes us from the wild animals is we can assess our actions before acting. Who cares if nature is fair, we don't have to emulate nature. If we did, what are we using computers for in the first place, we should be living in caves and trees. Though this isn't about fair, it's about we should treat people humanely regardless the the appearance. By not doing this we are missing out on a lot of talent that could improve FOSS. Saying sorry that is the way it is so don't worry about it anymore is useless. We can change things, and humans have proved in the past we don't have to wait for random genetic mutations to do it. Though if we hide behind the excuse of that just the way things are nothing changes. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 19, 2009 4:09 PM EDT |
Sadly, people will come up with all kinds of excuses to explain what they already believe. Personally, I find that individuals vary far more than their external traits would "prejudice" them to be. So I don't make assumptions. "The Internet" has taught me a great deal in this regard, since all we have are our words. Prejudice is impossible, but education and bias fairly SCREAM. While I've found Walter Block's economic investigations of the "male/female" and "black/white" wage gaps fascinating, I hesitate to post a link due to the tendency for anything I post to be interpreted as a political diatribe. Please email me if you're interested. |
| tbuitenh Sep 19, 2009 6:17 PM EDT |
Here's something interesting... Over here in the Netherlands almost all computer science students are male, whereas in China IIRC the gender distribution is about 50/50 - it certainly seems to be something like that for Chinese students who come study computer science here.
We're talking about statistically significant numbers here, if only I would care enough to try to get those numbers. So either Chinese women are somehow biologically different from Dutch/western women, or it is a cultural thing. Guess my guess. I'm pretty sure the tiny amount of women in FOSS and also in computing in general is mostly caused by our stupid culture telling us computers are for men, but it really doesn't help when some men act like jerks towards the remaining few women. I don't think having code to show is enough to participate in a software development project - one also needs some social skills. I'm not even going to attempt cooperating with someone who acts like a sexist jerk, and that does indeed mean I won't show him any code! As for sexist behavior being a natural result of being male (not mentioned in this article, but I've seen that argument floating around in the larger debate and I might as well deal with it now)... if that is true at all, well, defecating is a natural result of being human, why don't you do that with the door open (I mean at work, of course :P )? If you want to cooperate with people, you have to treat all of them as people, and leave your opinions that are irrelevant to your project unsaid (and unshown and unwritten). You don't have to be a woman to understand that, right? |
| golem Sep 19, 2009 6:23 PM EDT |
If there aren't enough women contributing to FOSS, the obvious first guess as to why is that it's for the same reason that there is a severe shortage of women studying computer science in colleges and universities and entering the profession of programming. I assume that's still true, there was a lot of public hand-wringing about it a few years ago. |
| theBeez Sep 19, 2009 7:06 PM EDT |
@Montezuma
Well, nice to see someone post a "study" of an oncologist (which FYI doesn't have any degree in neurosciences) and a psychology professor (which may be one of the most faux pseudosciences there is). The war between "nature" and "nurture" is still raging on, so yes, you may stumble on a competing study. The point is, that if women find it so important to enter FOSS, they should do so. Stop blaming me for being a man and for doing what I do best. Stop blaming a few immature juveniles for posting bad jokes on the usenet and claim that is keeping you from doing what should be a passion in the first place. If you're put off by a single "unjustice" like using the phrase "big boys" or "virgin", stay at home, take care of the kids, because in real life that is not the only injustice you're gonna face. Grow up! If helping women to learn how to program or using a computer isn't enough, what do want from me? Quitting FOSS just to raise the ratio?? Have a sex change?? I just want to work with excellent programmers and use excellent programs, that's all I care about. This isn't my fight, this isn't the fight of many hard working FOSS people, so get out of my face and stop insulting the people who do all the work. Addressing them is not going to change anything. Addressing women will. If you're looking for examples, there are examples, I mentioned a few. Try "Opzij", "Margriet", "Viva" or "Libelle". I'll leave your silly ad hominem attack for what it is. Get a life! |
| TxtEdMacs Sep 19, 2009 8:57 PM EDT |
theBeez, I have met individuals that have claimed they excelled at their fields, however, the volume of their assertions many times did not match their skill level. As in mathematical descriptions of physical phenomena, think inversely proportional. Thus, forgive my skepticism of all your claims of superiority that are based only upon personal assertions. If you just wished to work with programmers producing superior code as you seem to claim is your current situation, why the need for an essay? Perish the thought that some women might infliratrate your august group,, however, the same criteria will apply to women with a bit more civility for all participants. Why are you so fearful of change? Are you asserting to with no factual basis that just having women coders will corrupt quality, if so you are ignorant of not only science but computer history. Better than a harange and Quoting: ... silly ad hominem attack[s] for what it is. Get a life!I suggest you follow your own excellent advice. YBT |
| theBeez Sep 19, 2009 9:23 PM EDT |
@TxtEdEmacs
Unfortunately, I have worked with great programmers. People who punched out non-trivial code, compiled it and ran it. No warnings, no errors, it just ran. I was humbled by that experience and all I could utter was "It was a pleasure to see you work." It was a humbling experience. I therefore am unable to grasp where you found any claims of my alleged "superiority", because - it's funny - but it doesn't feel that way. Sometimes this old dog is able to amaze a youngster, but in my heart I know better. Maybe I have some women in my project. I don't know, because I don't ask and they don't tell. If there are, we are punching out code together, which keeps the project alive. That what we're here for, isn't it? So maybe the change has already happened and I didn't notice. And if I didn't notice it, who cares? Code has no name, no gender, no religion, no age. It's a-everything, like any form of art. I have read Francoise Sagan with great pleasure, like Margarite Duras. I like Nico a lot, nobody sings "Chain and ball" better than Janis Joplin. For some reason or another, that art works for me. If women care to make good software, I will enjoy it as well. But now I feel like I'm living for my garage band and somebody blames me that _I_ am the cause that the girl next door doesn't play music. That doesn't feel right. If she wants to play guitar, she should, but leave me out of the equation. Tonight my friends are coming over, we're gonna have a beer, put the volume to ten and play all night. I assume you either didn't read my article properly or made assumptions on things I never wrote. BTW, I have a life, what about you? Hans Bezemer |
| tuxchick Sep 19, 2009 10:26 PM EDT |
Speaking of making assumptions about things that were never written-- my response to The Beez: http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-09-18-03... |
| nanday Sep 20, 2009 12:10 AM EDT |
Personally, I don't take Bezemer's article very seriously as an argument. Here's why: http://brucebyfield.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/answering-two-a... |
| bigg Sep 20, 2009 7:14 AM EDT |
After reading this, I find myself anxiously awaiting the next Ken Hess posting. At least Ken doesn't even try to have a point. Mr. Beez just set a record for missing the point. While you can go on and on for days and even weeks about all the scientific explanations for the differences between men and women, that doesn't justify treating others badly. Nothing in the article is even relevant to the discussion of sexism. And the thing about statements like this: "for the scientifically challenged: examples are statistically insignificant." is that you should make sure you know what you are talking about before making those statements. (a) Examples are data. How can data be statistically insignificant? How could you ever find a statistically significant result in relation to anything without data? (b) If your null hypothesis is that sexism doesn't exist and you find a single example, then that is "statistically significant". If you are testing the hypothesis that on average women score better on IQ tests, then the idea of statistical significance is relevant. But again, missing the point. Those giving the examples never claimed anything about statistical significance. They gave examples for other obvious reasons. Disclaimer: I wanted to post my comments on the article but did not have time to read all of the comments here. |
| theBeez Sep 20, 2009 7:46 AM EDT |
@nanday
Yeah I know Bruce. Bruce is a wonderful technical writer and I enjoy his articles. But each and every time he addresses the community, he only succeeds in insulting it. Again, he misses the point completely and needs a lengthy article for that. Mine is very simple: (a) Carla and he claim sexism is the cause that keeps women away from FOSS. (b) They fail to produce any hard evidence. (c) I offer an alternate explanation, with the proper foundation. (d) By doing so, he and Carla insult hard working FOSS people. That's the story. Hans Bezemer |
| theBeez Sep 20, 2009 8:17 AM EDT |
@bigg
In statistics sample rates are significant. Take the report that is quoted so often, regarding the issue of female participation in FOSS. I have various problems with it. First, the number of participants is very low. Although numbers have not been explicitly stated, its around 150 men and 150 women. That sample is too small to make any conclusions unless there are only 150 men and women in FOSS. Taking simply the number of projects, assuming they are all 1-man projects, there should be about 30,000 males and 450 females in FOSS. The confidence interval is the plus-or-minus figure usually reported in newspaper or television opinion poll results. For example, if you use a confidence interval of 5 and 47% percent of your sample picks an answer you can be "sure" that if you had asked the question of the entire relevant population between 42% (47-5) and 52% (47+5) would have picked that answer. The wider the confidence interval you are willing to accept, the more certain you can be that the whole population answers would be within that range. The confidence level tells you how sure you can be. It is expressed as a percentage and represents how often the true percentage of the population who would pick an answer lies within the confidence interval. The 95% confidence level means you can be 95% certain; the 99% confidence level means you can be 99% certain. Most researchers use the 95% confidence level. So, using a 95% confidence level and a confidence interval of 5 we need to interview 379 developers, not 150. Be my guest, crunch the numbers, do your research. If you turn up with anything significant, let me know. Hans Bezemer |
| montezuma Sep 20, 2009 11:23 AM EDT |
I did some research on the neuroscience literature and the situation regarding gender differences appears unresolved and controversial. Mathematical ability is connected with many different areas of the brain and men and woman with high mathematical ability utilize these various neural components in quite different ways: http://www.pediatrics.uci.edu/faculty/neurology/haier/pdf/59... An overview of the state of science is here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=5&url=ht... It is obvious to me that this is a very complex subject where there is no consensus among neuroscientists. Therefore to attribute in a very definite way differences to just the IPL is grossly simplistic and further to claim that this explains why there are fewer female FOSS programmers is a stretch unwarranted by current scientific evidence. Bottomline is that this subject is a complex and unresolved one biologically and that the social evidence marshaled by Carla and Bruce is much more compelling in my mind. Also I am genuinely puzzled as to why the Beezer is so angry about this. I am involved in the physical sciences (college professor) and I have female graduate students. Personally I do not find it difficult or onerous to treat them with respect. It shouldn't be hard in the FOSS community either. |
| theBeez Sep 20, 2009 11:52 AM EDT |
@Montezuma
Ok, now we're talking! Which evidence is more compelling is a matter of choice. At least you give me the credit that there IS a choice. I took the stuff of Carla and Bruce as another insult of the FOSS community. Bruce has a particular bad track record in that respect. I've written it a 1000 times, so here we go again: - There are too few women in FOSS (I'm a guy, I'm in FOSS, this doesn't concern me). - It's your fault, you're a sexist! (Now wait a minute, isn't there another explanation?) Here you got it in a nutshell. Hans Bezemer |
| tbuitenh Sep 20, 2009 12:19 PM EDT |
Well that's great that YOU are not a sexist. It's still a problem that some other people are. |
| theBeez Sep 20, 2009 12:31 PM EDT |
@tbuitenh
Well, crank out the numbers. I still haven't seen any evidence that the main cause of women participating in FOSS is sexist behavior. Which is the main point Carla and Bruce want to make. Have you read the report involved in detail? Well, I have and my comments still have to surface on LT. "I also have various problems with the report. First, the number of participants is very low. Although numbers have not been explicitly stated, its around 150 men and 150 women. That sample is too small to make any conclusions unless there are only 150 men and women in FOSS. Taking simply the number of projects, assuming they are all 1-man projects, there should be about 30,000 males and 450 females in FOSS. The confidence interval is the plus-or-minus figure usually reported in newspaper or television opinion poll results. For example, if you use a confidence interval of 5 and 47% percent of your sample picks an answer you can be "sure" that if you had asked the question of the entire relevant population between 42% (47-5) and 52% (47+5) would have picked that answer. The wider the confidence interval you are willing to accept, the more certain you can be that the whole population answers would be within that range. The confidence level tells you how sure you can be. It is expressed as a percentage and represents how often the true percentage of the population who would pick an answer lies within the confidence interval. The 95% confidence level means you can be 95% certain; the 99% confidence level means you can be 99% certain. Most researchers use the 95% confidence level. So, using a 95% confidence level and a confidence interval of 5 we need to interview 379 developers, not 150. Second, using the interview method smells like exploratory research, which is usually only conducted in preparation of a follow-up which automatically makes the outcome questionable in the sense that the findings can be extrapolated to a larger community. Finally, you're not fair in the sense that if I DO take this research seriously, a number of conclusions are made that (a) touch the very heart of FOSS culture, (b) are related to women themselves, (c) touch a part of our community that will largely be insensitive to your appeal. (a) Women have a problem with flaming. Should we stop flaming? Wear flowers in our hair and be nice to each other? I don't think that is going to happen. (a) Women perform largely in lower esteem activities. They don't code, but do documentation. Personally, I take documentation very seriously (check out my 450 page manual on a 5000 line project). Most coders want just to see code. Strangely enough, I do a lot of documentation for other groups myself and I never felt like this wasn't taken seriously. However, if you want to talk the direction of a project, you're a minor contributor. That's logical. (b) Women are not able - or willing? - to dedicate a large portion of their time to FOSS. Some stop or spend less time because they have children. That diminishes your rank in a meritocracy. (b) Women start learning about computers at a later age than males. Consequently, males are more proficient. (c) This is straight from the report: "Another limitation was that there was no psychological expertise on the team. In the analysis period we came to understand that for many in the F/LOSS community, gender disparity could be explained by the recognition that F/LOSS may contain a disproportion of people on the autistic spectrum. It is currently also commonly understood that there is a disproportionate number of males to females who are on this spectrum. The active disassociation with the ‘social’ we understand as a socially constructed way of performing a particular kind of masculine and individualist identity. However, it is entirely possible that for a minority this dissociation goes beyond issues of social identity given that autism has been correlated with males in mathematical and engineering fields in higher education". Well, you really think that people with a "minor" condition like this are gonna respond very well to your article? You also failed to highlight that women in a professional FOSS environment are usually better off and take a higher position, so not all is bad. All in all, the report shows a far more complex environment that just a few sexist males that cause all problems. As an editor you should have taken these nuances into consideration." Hans Bezemer |
| tbuitenh Sep 20, 2009 1:01 PM EDT |
I just re-read Carla's editor's note, and she didn't actually write that sexist behavior is the MAIN cause of women not participating in FOSS. She did write that it is a big reason for that happening. There's a difference there. And you know what? It doesn't matter even if it's only a small reason, or if it scares away equal numbers of men and women. Unacceptable behavior does harm FOSS. Many people expect those they cooperate with to act professional and polite, or else they won't join in cooperating (which means they won't contribute code, and since you care about code, you should care). FOSS is not just for the trolls and troglodytes and those who got used to them. Yes, we could just give up on trying to change the culture away from flaming and sexism and whatnot, but what a waste that would be. |
| montezuma Sep 20, 2009 1:05 PM EDT |
@TheBeez, My point was that any fair reading of the literature shows your IPL stuff to be not at all based on mainstream scientific opinion. It can therefore be disregarded as a serious explanation and I would strongly argue that introducing unproven stuff like that into a debate like this is unhelpful and inflammatory in the extreme. As to proving sexism within the FOSS community I don't think there is any hard statistical evidence either way.That of course simply means that it hasn't been subjected to serious scientific study not that it does not exist. However if leading female FOSS contributors like Carla say they have been subjected to it I tend to believe them. Why? Because they have no incentive to raise this issue if it is not a real issue. No one likes someone whining for nothing so serious members of the community do not raise these issues unless they are real. First hand I have seen on several fora I visit clear evidence of what I would personally call sexism. Instead of getting on your high horse and attacking feminism in a strident fashion might I suggest you engage in some genuine dialog with the people raising the issue. I have found them to be reasonable people. |
| theBeez Sep 20, 2009 1:37 PM EDT |
"As to proving sexism within the FOSS community I don't think there is any hard statistical evidence either way."
That says it all. Instead of blaming and insulting hard working FOSS proponents in the first place, this discussion should have started in a different way. _I_ felt insulted and from reading the comments on Bruce's blog, I don't think I'm the only one. Note that FOSS supporters dedicate their own free time to the benefit of the whole community - including women and their families. They should have had a little more respect, before this was posed this way. The mere fact that (a) Carla - up to now - hasn't given any screening time to this feeling and (b) hasn't given any proof that this is the root cause for the problem she addresses worries me greatly. Note there would neither be LX nor LT if it hadn't been for these people. They DESERVE a little more respect. Hans Bezemer |
| tuxchick Sep 20, 2009 1:48 PM EDT |
Thank tbuitenh, you said concisely and well what I tried to say in zillions of words. |
| nanday Sep 20, 2009 3:05 PM EDT |
Let's add another logical fallacy to Hans' list: arguing from the specific to the general. He's insulted, so everybody must be insulted. But I would question the claim that Carla and I insult the community. We critique it, which is something quite different. That's what we do for a living. I wouldn't make FOSS a central part of my life if I didn't care about it and think it important, and I suspect that Carla would say much the same. |
| krisum Sep 20, 2009 3:11 PM EDT |
Quoting: That says it all. Instead of blaming and insulting hard working FOSS proponents in the first place, this discussion should have started in a different way.A ridiculous reading of the two articles. Quoting: _I_ felt insulted and from reading the comments on Bruce's blog, I don't think I'm the only one.There is no reason to unless your only aim is to attack the articles. As for statistical evidence of sexism within FOSS community, it is besides the point of the two articles. Even a few testimonies from Carla and others are enough for the point they are making. Why? Simply because the two articles only claim that it exists to significant degree and make no statistical claim on the spread of the phenomenon, though if one were to honestly judge by experiences of Carla and other women in FOSS then it looks to be fairly widespread. |
| bigg Sep 20, 2009 4:03 PM EDT |
@Beez: That's not what I was talking about. You saidQuoting:BTW, for the scientifically challenged: examples are statistically insignificant. That's not a trivial argument. Most of Carla's article was examples. Thus, you are dismissing all of her evidence because she did not do statistical analysis. I think you do not have a proper understanding of when you need to worry about statistical significance. If someone says, "The sun always rises in the west" you do not need a large sample of sunrises. You need only one counterexample in which the sun rises in the east. By my understanding, Carla was simply demonstrating the existence of sexism. I do not see anything written by either Carla or Bruce that makes the claim that the small number of women in FOSS proves that there is sexism. You'd have to ask them to be sure, but it seems clear to me that they are saying (a) sexism exists and (b) some women are turned off by the sexism and do not take part in FOSS as a result. That is why I said you set a record for missing the point. You are arguing (passionately and angrily) that there are other reasons for low female participation. That may or may not be true, but I don't see how it is relevant to this discussion. |
| theBeez Sep 20, 2009 4:44 PM EDT |
@nanday
"We critique it, which is something quite different. That's what we do for a living."
Well, bless you. Instead of supporting it, you see your mission is to critique it. I guess, that's Bruce's mission too. Why don't you go and work for some Redmond forum? There you can critique FOSS all day without being questioned. AFAIK it pays better too. I'm not the only one who was insulted. Read the comments all over. There are enough people who feel the same way. I'm giving them a voice. For free. In real FOSS style. I'm asking one very simple question: give me real proof there is sexism of any scale in FOSS. I can give examples of everything you want. The point is, is it significant enough to see a pattern. I still don't have it. All I see is that proponents of your case are shutting down the blinds. Bruce has already closed his site for any comments from either Sam or me. Well, so much for "being open to discussion". Mine is still open, 24/7. Hans Bezemer |
| nanday Sep 20, 2009 5:40 PM EDT |
Hans: First, my apologies. In answering between doing a couple of other things, I forgot to specify that I ("nanday") am Bruce Byfield. As for people who feel insulted, I remember lots of people who disagree with what I've said, but I can't remember anyone except you who says he was personally insulted. Personally, I have a lot more respect for the people in the FOSS community than to imagine that most of them expect everyone to be a mindless fan-boy, supporting everything that happens and never raising a doubt. But you might want to examine why you are so quick to take offense at what I say, and, more specificially why the issue of sexism upsets you so much. Evidence? Both Carla and I have given you all sorts of evidence. But, like a speaker for Big Tobacco insisting that the connection between cancer and smoking doesn't imply causality, you go to extremes to explain it away. A little application of Occam's Razor might be useful to you. But poor Hans! With my blog closed to you, you only have three or four forums on which to continue your diatribes. Yes, your freedom of expression is being denied, and you are a martyr to the cause of free speech. The possible mistreatment of half of humanity doesn't interest you in the least, but your own imaginary mistreatment is apparently another matter. - Bruce Byfield ("nanday" |
| theBeez Sep 20, 2009 6:30 PM EDT |
@Bruce, Again, exemplary evidence is NO evidence at all. Get that in your head. And I certainly don't need your blog to say whatever I have to say. It isn't read that much anyway. Note that repeating untruth doesn't make one truth. BTW, there was lots of statistics required until any connection between lung cancer and smoking was established, which only illustrates how hard it is to provide statistical proof that will stick in court. I'm doing a followup anyway, discussing the FLOSS report in detail. It contains many interesting angles - not only one as you claim. Hans Bezemer |
| softwarejanitor Sep 21, 2009 12:57 AM EDT |
@theBeez Sheesh dude... who p!$$3d in your corn flakes? |
| chalbersma Sep 21, 2009 1:03 AM EDT |
Peeps is this really neccessary. What will arguing over this cause? Will it make Beez a sexist? Will it make tuxchick a feminist? I would say no and it doesn't even seem like a decent outcome. So let's let this rest and get back to what we do best. Bashing Microsoft, because we all know that that actually has a better potential outcome. :) |
| krisum Sep 21, 2009 1:33 AM EDT |
@theBeezQuoting: I'm not the only one who was insulted.Can you come again? You feel insulted because the articles claimed that sexism is alive in FOSS land. Really? So by that account you will also feel insulted when someone claims that some men are sexist because you happen to be a man. For one I have not seen anyone who claimed to have been insulted apart from you. It is hard to believe that this insult thing is for real and looks like you are simply making up an insult when none exists, trying to project yourself as a victim just to attack those who are discussing a real problem and possible solutions to that. Quoting: Read the comments all over. There are enough people who feel the same way. I'm giving them a voice. For free. In real FOSS style.Evidence? Why don't you just cut this out and come clear with the real reasons. Quoting: I'm asking one very simple question: give me real proof there is sexism of any scale in FOSS. I can give examples of everything you want. The point is, is it significant enough to see a pattern. I still don't have it.You try to take recourse to statistics when none is required, with the only motivation of denying the problem. When women in FOSS have been consistently talking about this problem for a long time the conclusion is that this is alive in FOSS land to a significant degree. Even if a small percent of men in FOSS behave that way, it looks like most women in FOSS have faced the problem more than once and hence this discussion. You are making little sense in all of this. Granted that you have an axe to grind with Bruce, as has also been stated by you explicitly, but taking to such nonsensical arguments does little to help you. Let me note Carla's advise which applies very well here: Quoting: Before you read any more please do everyone a favor-- if you're not willing to be honest, to read, and think, and take it seriously, and if all you want to do is post how wrong I am and spout all the usual stupid and wrong reasons why women are not into FOSS, and how you know better than us what our experiences are, don't bother. Go away and do something else. We'll all be better off. |
| chalbersma Sep 21, 2009 1:44 AM EDT |
nm I guess... |
| theBeez Sep 21, 2009 2:27 AM EDT |
@krisum
> Quoted:
> Before you read any more please do everyone a favor-- if you're not willing to be honest, to read, and think, and
> take it seriously, and if all you want to do is post how wrong I am and spout all the usual stupid and wrong
> reasons why women are not into FOSS, and how you know better than us what our experiences are, don't
> bother. Go away and do something else. We'll all be better off. Please don't try to attribute this quote to me. As anyone can see for themselves, I didn't write this. Hans Bezemer |
| theBeez Sep 21, 2009 2:29 AM EDT |
@krisum
Sorry, It's early in the morning ;-) Hans |
| jacog Sep 21, 2009 5:08 AM EDT |
http://xkcd.com/639/ Happy Monday all. |
| tbuitenh Sep 21, 2009 5:23 AM EDT |
Quoting:I'm not the only one who was insulted. Read the comments all over. There are enough people who feel the same way. But are those examples statistically significant enough to be considered valid evidence? Sorry, couldn't resist :) |
| tuxchick Sep 21, 2009 9:35 AM EDT |
Quoting: So let's let this rest and get back to what we do best. Bashing Microsoft, because we all know that that actually has a better potential outcome. :) The geek equivalent of "you kids go outside and play, you're driving me crazy!" :) |
| theBeez Sep 21, 2009 12:48 PM EDT |
@tbuitenh
> But are those examples statistically significant enough to be considered valid evidence?
Oh no, not even close. Just felt like it. Strange, but sometimes I almost feel human.. ;-) Can't see injustice. Have you really dissect the FLOSS polls report on it's merits? I say one word: Alan McCormack. Hans Bezemer |
| tbuitenh Sep 21, 2009 3:57 PM EDT |
@theBeez I'm afraid I can't find the link to that report, probably because my brain is trying to exit through my nose these days... And I couldn't even say if I think that report is relevant to the point before I read it! What *I* believe is the point is that sexism and other rude and unprofessional behavior exists in the FOSS community and is not too exceptional, even common enough that it does not surprise people. Do we really need thorough research to confirm what can easily be seen? Just like we don't need thorough research to see some people are offended by others saying sexist behavior is a problem (a really strange thing to be offended by, IMHO). |
| chalbersma Sep 21, 2009 4:33 PM EDT |
@tuxchick Yep. (sips beer) |
| theBeez Sep 21, 2009 4:44 PM EDT |
@tbuitenh
That exactly it: you believe. You take everything for granted some authority figure tells you something and later you whine "Wir haben es nicht gewusst". Don't you think it's strange that Carla didn't post the link to the report first time? Don't you think it's strange she reacted like bitten by a bee when I quoted EXACTLY from the report? I already promised I would make a follow up where I carve that report up inside out. Ask any serious poll expert: how many people do you need to see a serious trend? How do you investigate that properly. Come back when you have the answers. http://flosspols.org/deliverables/FLOSSPOLS-D16-Gender_Integ... BTW, note when it was written!! Why now? And by what strange coincidence do Carla's and Bruce's article follow so shortly after one another? Keep asking questions.. Hans Bezemer |
| chalbersma Sep 22, 2009 1:08 AM EDT |
I'll ask a question Hans. Is it worth it? Really? You know your not going to change their minds. They know they aien't gonna change yours. Com' on now. You should be able to pick this up faster than two shakes of a dog's tail. |
| krisum Sep 22, 2009 2:26 AM EDT |
@chalbersma
Quoting: I'll ask a question Hans. Is it worth it? Really? You know your not going to change their minds. They know they aien't gonna change yours.That's not the point. By that account most discussions on forums are useless. We have seen, even on these forums, multiple people change their opinions as a result of an informed discussion. Besides Hans played a bluff; it needed to be called. |
| theBeez Sep 22, 2009 2:47 AM EDT |
@chalbersma
"I'll ask a question Hans. Is it worth it? Really? You know your not going to change their minds. They know they aien't gonna change yours. Com' on now. You should be able to pick this up faster than two shakes of a dog's tail." Good question, man! ;-) But look at it this way: in a hundred years, who is gonna remember? Puts a lot of things in a real good perspective. In the meanwhile, I'm having some good fun! @krisum "Calling my bluff". C'mon, I've had only ONE SINGLE commenter that made any real sense and kept me on my toes. Have you read Bruce's babble on "Off the wall" and consequently being sliced and diced by Sam Varghese? The rest keep on rambling about "real women, real experiences", emotional outbreaks, repeating ideological matras, etc. Boy, do I miss Rufus - one of my former adversaries. He was GOOD! Hans Bezemer |
| hkwint Sep 22, 2009 7:39 AM EDT |
Doing statistics / more research only wastes time and raises more discussion. -If sexism in FLOSS is not an issue, nobody is going to notice if "a code of conduct with zero tolerance for sexism" is introduced, because the code changes nothing. -If sexism in FLOSS is an issue, a "code of conduct with zero tolerance for sexism" solves the issue. There, done; you can solve the issue without gathering statistical significant evidence - or discussing the current 'evidence'. So I'd say just introduce the mentioned code of conduct, stop discussing and start writing excellent code (or documentation) again. |
| tracyanne Sep 22, 2009 8:36 AM EDT |
Works for me. |
| bigg Sep 22, 2009 8:41 AM EDT |
Hans gets the award for the most concise summary of the discussion. Now we can all get back to our real work. |
| montezuma Sep 22, 2009 10:07 AM EDT |
+1 Hans. What I was trying to say at the start before I was driven through the flame wash. |
| theBeez Sep 22, 2009 12:46 PM EDT |
@hkwint
Oversimplification. Plain and simple. First of all: what is sexism? Second, what is the set of characteristics that an expression must fulfill before it IS considered sexism. E.g. my girlfriend bought a book on dieting lately, because she wanted me to lose a few pounds - this is embarrassing ;-) I said in the foreword that given I had followed all instructions I would fit in my bikini within a few weeks. Is this sexism? "Of course not" you will argue "The book has a female target audience". Well, obviously not. Compare that to this: "# MemCache Store – MemCache is a program designed specifically for high performance memory caching. It’s not written in Ruby, but it’s damn fast and it’s what all the big boys use." Ok. Some context: language that is exclusive to females and inclusive to male developers has got to go. Each time I come across this exclusion-jargon, I die a little inside, and lose a little respect for the source of the material. I feel like it is almost an intentional barrier put in place by the groups who continue to try to keep 'us' out, like an unspoken right of passage you can only get to if you are male. With 1.5% being female, is this a surprise?? Even LESS of that percentage is actually coding! Bottom line: it is VERY dangerous to limit free speech. It is not without reason that (at least in Holland) lawmakers are very reluctant to enforce those limitations. Limiting it implies enforcing the value standards of one group onto another. Religious groups and radical feminists will find female undie ads sexist. Note that (and the Stallman example shows this very clearly) you can also use it for political reasons. I feel that project enforces standards will work much better, since they are enforced by the community itself. Note that any project can fork if they don't like it. Let's say a number of women and a few ringleaders enforce such standards in a project. Won't the main developers say some very sexist words and start to work elsewhere? Note that a lot of projects (the vast majority) are one men projects. Who do you think who calls the shots there. The report (FLOSS polls) even mentions it: "F/LOSS still is very much based upon voluntary work which people carry out in their spare time rather than as part of their paid labour. Therefore a lot of measures which are successfully applied in the work environments of companies, public sector institutions or others can not be employed in this context. This particularly concerns issues of discrimination, inflammatory talk, valuation of particular work tasks and so forth. Activities tackling these issues have to come from inside the community itself and we would rather not propose recommendations in this directions. It is up to the community as a whole to decide upon how it should organise itself and communicate this. It is up to single projects themselves to integrate measures such as rules of conduct or other forms of tackling the social dynamics set out above." But I guess you haven't read it. You're talking plain pub talk, man. If things were only this easy. Posting it is an offense to both your and my intelligence. Hans Bezemer |
| hkwint Sep 22, 2009 3:32 PM EDT |
I posted about the FLOSSPOLs on LXer back when they came out. http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/78650/ I did read most of them (including the one on female participation) back then (which probably is a few years ago now), though I didn't read them all completely (the one about female participation was short, I believe I read the full text). When it comes to deciding what sexism is or not: Let humans decide. The Debian social contract states something about 'no discrimination' without defining what they intend with discrimination. Nonetheless they can work with it. Gentoo almost died because a lack of 'code of conduct'. Lots of developers left - because the freedom of speech. That doesn't sound like a good solution to me. Same thing for LXer: Before the freedom of speech was limited, things got out of hand from time to time, to such a degree that we lost discussing FOSS out of sight. Let's say you want to discuss politics or religion on the OOo mailing list. Then before you know it, lots of developers will be discussing politics and religion, and that's not what OOo is about. Neither is it something OOo benefits from. Those who feel limited in their freedom of speech have plenty of other ways to make themselves heard. It's not that software projects are parliaments. Software projects are not the foundation of democracy in the way parliament / media are. So while you may think I'm a fool I believe in the solution I mentioned. |
| tuxchick Sep 22, 2009 4:03 PM EDT |
hkwint, there is a principle in discussions and debates, and that is "the more words you spew the less you're likely to be addressing the actual point." Your posts are concise and direct, and it's clear where you stand. I believe you have summed things up nicely, thanks. Or as montezuma said, +1. |
| hkwint Sep 22, 2009 4:22 PM EDT |
Please let me add a few more words: I understand the point Mr. Bezemer is making (but I think it's near impossible to talk about sexism by using only 'numbers', statistics and cells). And I agree that sexism cannot only account for the lack of women as FOSS-developers, like I have argued in a looong post a few days ago. I also have to add I didn't notice sexism happening at the forums I visit (that's confirmed by the FLOSSPOL actually: only 20% of the males notice discriminatory behaviour, while 80% of the females notice it). I understand someone feels offended when he feels like he is blamed for the lack of women in FOSS - while only trying to help and write code. So it's not that I'm disagreeing with Mr. Bezemer (on some points I do, like on the solution). It's just that I think no matter the causes, who causes it or how big the problem is, and in what way to measure the causes or problem - there's a workable solution. If it's so simple that it cannot come from a thinking person and it's pub talk then I'm sorry, but there's not much I can do about it. |
| theBeez Sep 22, 2009 4:55 PM EDT |
@hkwint
I'm not against any code of conduct. As a matter of fact, I proposed such measures a number of times, on Usenet forums and on my blog (http://thebeezspeaks.blogspot.com/2008/08/revenge-of-linux-m...). But note that sexism is not that easy to spot as discrimination for the simple reason that (as a proved in above sample) it depends a whole lot on the actual value system. These systems (as illustrated - I won't say proven - by FLOSS polls) differ HEAVILY between the different groups. Sure, anyone would agree that "women can't code, so why should you" is clear cut sexism, but "Now you're one of the big boys, girl" may not get you the same answer. Within hackers social context, this is clearly a compliment. You want to jump on somebodies neck for that? I can only speak for myself: if I can't express myself naturally anymore the fun is gone. If you really go around the internet, you will find that even within certain feminist circles this isn't taken seriously anymore. This is really a two way street and the report even indicates that FORCING it on the community will have adverse effects. Just as the atmosphere changes when women enter the workplace, the community will change when women participate. But then they have to participate. I think it is also wise to prepare women properly before they enter the community, know what to expect and know where to go when certain behavior (note: private email isn't monitored by anyone) isn't acceptable. When I went to a fashion show with my girlfriend, she prepared me too. Should they have accommodated me by drinking beer, making sexist jokes and farting in order to make me feel at home? I really feel that people should be measured by the quality of their work - and get the full credits of it. No matter what. People should not be put down because of how they look, their sex of their color. But putting the FULL blame on a community is simply not fair. That is certainly not the conclusion of FLOSS polls if you read it properly. And when it doesn't happen, it simply doesn't happen. You can't force an ideology on an entire community without paying the price at one time or another. Simply fork. Gentoo is an excellent example. In that way, FOSS may be the most democratic force in modern times after the internet. A community is just that: a bunch of people working together voluntarily. They can vote with their feet if they don't like it. If sexism is such a powerful force in FOSS we have lost anyway and this discussion is futile. |
| tbuitenh Sep 23, 2009 10:05 AM EDT |
@theBeez
So let's see if I understood this correctly. The articles/opinion pieces you criticize are wrong because there's something wrong with a report they do not quote from or link to? Nice straw man... or perhaps it's paranoia, I'm not sure: Quoting: Don't you think it's strange that Carla didn't post the link to the report first time? ... BTW, note when it was written!! Why now? And by what strange coincidence do Carla's and Bruce's article follow so shortly after one another? And then there's this nice bit: Quoting: That exactly it: you believe. You take everything for granted some authority figure tells you something and later you whine "Wir haben es nicht gewusst". Let me assure you that I don't necessarily believe what you or Carla or whoever writes, but I do believe what I can see for myself. I do see sexism in FOSS related places every once in a while, and I think such behavior is a problem. The sense in which I used the word "believe" is that I believe something _about_ the articles (what the main point of those was), not that I believe the content of the articles because of the supposed authority of the authors. Also, Godwin's law strikes again, so I don't think it will be useful to continue talking to you. |
| theBeez Sep 23, 2009 12:09 PM EDT |
@tbuitenh
"Also, Godwin's law strikes again, so I don't think it will be useful to continue talking to you." Godwin's law is the most abused and least understood issue on Usenet. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/ But hey, what should I expect from somebody that obviously is unable to think for himself - which means view anything written critically for himself and just follow the cheering crowds. Hans Bezemer |
| tbuitenh Sep 24, 2009 5:06 AM EDT |
@theBeez
Did you actually read that FAQ? You compared me to a nazi supporter (while claiming falsehoods about my point of view and personality, too). That also implies you think that the "authorities" you claim I follow without question (I don't, the only authority I accept is me) are like nazis. If that isn't a clear sign that you've become completely irrational and it is therefore useless to continue talking with you, I don't know what is. *points at the thinking corner* |
| machiner Sep 24, 2009 8:26 AM EDT |
Wah wah wah - we all want our agendas furthered. Maybe we should all evolve into what we say others are not. I'm Human and that's my agenda. ########## fine, all can play. Can we grow up? Pontificate all you like, complain, foam at the mouth, offer up catchy explanations and maybe use a $ 0.50 word or concept -- doesn't change a thing. Sexism is a "thing" to be cured like violence is never the answer. Lol -- all the way down a big hill. |
| theBeez Sep 24, 2009 12:28 PM EDT |
@tbuitenh
No, I compared you to what the Germans call a "Windfahn", which means people who turn to anyone who is "in charge" and later claim they had nothing to do with it when it goes wrong and jump on the next bandwagon. If you have another metaphor you're welcome to insert it here. Some people are unable to see the difference between a metaphor and an insult, because they don't think beyond the first flash. Which is exactly the problem I diagnosed with you before. Therefore, Godwin's law doesn't apply. |
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