Very nice article, totally insane situation!
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Alcibiades Feb 08, 2014 11:13 PM EDT |
Its really amazing sleuthing, so well done! But lacking the author's devotion to KDE many will read it and think what it is really telling us is to run, not walk, to an alternative. For me personally its fluxbox, and when I got brave and put this in for a naive user there was surprisingly little resistance. But in the end xfce seems to do what gnome used to do so well. Maybe Mate will be the answer, haven't tried that out yet. If so it would be ideal. The tragedy of it is that KDE 3x and Gnome 2x used to be different but in their own ways excellent. Gnome 2 in particular was simple elegant and out of your way. No more. Future historians will spend lots of time wondering why the two main linux destops made themselves unusable in different ways just at the point where Microsoft was also launching its own foray into unusability. Very strange indeed. The only thing one can think of is that it must all be due to climate change. That or mass hallucination. |
| frankiej Feb 08, 2014 11:54 PM EDT |
The concept of Akonadi did not bother me. I even drank the kool-aid and accepted the explanation it followed the UNIX philosophy by handling all of the mail/calendar/contact/etc management and allowing the client programs to provide the rest of the functionality. But it didn't work. I know it works for some, but I would routinely lose mail just by moving it between inbox (downloaded) and a local folder. Every Slackware upgrade I would hope that it would be more stable, but it never would. I continued to rely on Thunderbird while using KDE. Nepomuk reliance exposed it to additional issues as well. Contact auto-complete when composing messages would fail because of problems with the Akonadi + Nepomuk integration. While this bug has since been fixed, the workaround was to wipe out the Nepomuk database which would wipe out other items store there (e.g. Gwenview photo tags). This needs to be more solid if it is the only option. |
| Francy Feb 09, 2014 12:29 AM EDT |
>>The tragedy of it is that KDE 3x and Gnome 2x used to be different Why say <used> ? KDE3 is still alive under the Trinity Project . I stop right here! grin grin |
| Ridcully Feb 09, 2014 12:55 AM EDT |
@frankiej........Lemme throw a little light on that matter from past experience. Okay, KMail used to have a simplistic filing system. Now remember I am using version 1.13.6 in KDE4.6, and this is the last version of KMail (to my pretty certain knowledge) that behaved traditionally and was quite easy to use. It's why I treasure my current KDE desktop and its KMail version and the Evergreen project because all of it simply works without any impediments, even if Akonadi is present. I think with this version, Akonadi had not yet been thrust into KMail and the KMail files - it runs but it does nothing and it certainly does NOT engage in hdd mega-activity. Now, with this early version, if you want to transfer files using the file manager (Dolphin or whatever) you simply go into the folder defined by : /home/(yourusername)/.kde4/share/apps/kmail/mail/ and there they all are.....You can do as you choose, copy, delete, move, etc.. OR, you can use the KMail export function, which produces a zip file to wherever you want to store the archives. The disadvantage of the latter was that the file names are lost and turned into numbers......but it works. Now.....in the next version of KMail, the files became fully intertwined with Akonadi and they are no longer beholden to KMail, they are Akonadi's property and Akonadi is a full databasing program. I found that if I did any traditional file manager movements, you could not use KMail to read the files; it had to have Akonadi "approval", so suddenly the only way of moving files around was to create folders in the home folder, put the files in those folders and export and import strictly via KMail's mechanisms which in turn were locked into Akonadi. Use anything else and you almost certainly lost those files. Cumbersome ? Very annoying ? Oh yes, extremely so, as far as I am concerned.. I may be wrong, but that is how the situation developed according to what I experienced. @Francy......I live in hope that openSUSE will pick up Trinity as an alternative high speed desktop for KDE enthusiasts who are now fed up with the extremes to which the KDE4 team has gone out of their way to make one of the most important communications linkages, KMail, as difficult and cumbersome to use as possible. There. That's my opinion anyhow. I have remained polite, but oh boy, do I think things in the quietness of my mind. |
| Francy Feb 09, 2014 5:51 AM EDT |
>>>@Francy......I live in hope that openSUSE will pick up Trinity as an alternative high speed desktop for KDE enthusiasts ............ You can have a look here to see if you should maintain your hopes <http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Documentation/OpenSUSEBinaryInstallation> |
| Ridcully Feb 09, 2014 6:00 AM EDT |
I assume Francy, that you are using Trinity right now ? On what OS platform ? |
| Francy Feb 09, 2014 7:32 AM EDT |
I am using the liveCD for PCLinuxOS ( I installed on HD of course ).
It is NOT supported by that community, but they don't mind that it exist either. Since I am a home user with a 4 pc network, for private use , the demands are not high. The main reason I use it ( TDE ), is that both Dolphin and Konqueror in KDE4 still give to many issues if you get a boatload of 1000 files/folders to rename ( language job ). I also use the pure KDE4 Minime version ( which I have undressed just that little more), as I personally don't see fault with KDE4 per se. Software is software, and bugs and issues will always be here. EDIT If you are planning to install Trinity yourself in openSuse, you better read/subscribe to the mailing list, as those who install it on an existing installation have quite a lot of small < mods > to do. |
| Ridcully Feb 09, 2014 7:51 AM EDT |
Thanks Francy......I suspected it might be the case that you weren't on openSUSE.....Okay, I had a look at the site you noted and it's a good one for "playing and experimentation".....I may even do that.....BUT....what I am interested in, is openSUSE actually supporting Trinity, the way they do with Gnome, KDE, Xfce, etc. Dare I say it, but Trinity would be possibly a better, faster, and slimmed down DE than some of the others they are currently supporting. At the moment, I'm very content on openSUSE 11.4 and KDE4.6......it's a very good, fast and functional desktop without the semantics thrown in. I have seen articles that suggest that turning off Akonadi is fine for a majority of users, purely because that majority never use Akonadi's aspects....the sad bit of course, is the loss of KMail.......however, I am looking at the next part which will deal with Thunderbird and possibly Claws. |
| Francy Feb 09, 2014 8:04 AM EDT |
Suse officially supporting Trinity.....? Hmm....The problem with supporting is that you need users who need support. Personally I think that the only support Trinity ever will get is the existing mailing list. As for mail, I use Thunderbird for donkey years already, with a few addons for conveniance, like the <ImportExportTool> which I use as a backup tool. Again, the demands are not high ! |
| flufferbeer Feb 09, 2014 1:48 PM EDT |
@Alcibiades >> Future historians will spend lots of time wondering why the two main linux destops made themselves unusable in different ways just at the point where Microsoft was also launching its own foray into unusability. Brings to my mind the ever-recited M$ song-and-dance rant "Developers, developers, developers, developers,..." Seems to me that these two main linux desktops similarly made themselves unusable due to the whims and featuritis-cravings of THEIR two teams of ever-aspiring "developers, developers, developers,..." !! My 2c |
| Francy Feb 10, 2014 8:53 AM EDT |
@ ridcully I am downloading openSuse 12.3 TDE 64bit, just for fun . I will let you know what I think/experience/etc Will take a few days for that anyway. Don't watch this page I'll email you |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 10, 2014 9:41 AM EDT |
I use TDE on Debian, have for years now. It works just fine. Kmail continues to function just as it always did, saving mail in mbox files, easily searched with standard unix tools if anything goes wrong. http://anarchic-order.blogspot.com/2011/02/debian-linux-6-an... |
| Ridcully Feb 10, 2014 5:55 PM EDT |
@Francy.....great stuff.....let me know how you get on. This is one of the things I am promising myself as well. I have already said this pretty much on the other thread, but at the expense of repetition, here it is again. On that thread, I've been in a dialogue with frankiej and for the first time he/she has enabled me to put some very confusing bits of the semantic desktop jigsaw together. I now have a very good idea of exactly what the KDE developers are up to and why the KDE desktop behaves as it does. In a sense, KMail has been emasculated and it can do nothing on its own - it must have Akonadi present or it simply will not function. Given that, plus the fact that the statement out of the Nepomuk home site makes it very clear that the KDE semantic desktop is designed for huge corporate/industrial/research networks, it is obvious, at least to me anyway, that KDE is no longer a desktop aimed at the small, stand alone user. So, with that in mind, my only conclusion is that KMail is a "gone goose" and will not be made available in its original simple form. Therefore the only solution, as I see it, is to disable the semantic desktop and use an alternative email client. Or.....as you are now exploring, reject KDE4 altogether as simply not worth the time and trouble and move to an alternative desktop. Trinity and Xfce are now beckoning. I wonder if I will have the time to put all of this together and write some more......But it is extremely sad for me.....I am now being forced to alter my concepts of KDE as a desktop that a stand alone system user could feel comfortable with. Some may like what it has become - no worries on that score from me, but I do not like it at all. And thanks for the quick comment Bob_Robertson........I have the feeling that Trinity is likely to be my way ahead, but for the moment, the Evergreen project supports my present desktop of openSUSE 11.4 and its version of KDE, so there is no hurry yet...... |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 11, 2014 9:20 AM EDT |
@Francy, Ridcully, Last night I wrote a blog-post with the experience of installing Trinity-DE, hopefully it will be approved and posted some time today. Let me be the first to say that there are still some little annoying bugs that a team as small as Trinity hasn't gotten around to fixing, such as the fact that the K3b doesn't do well with verifying written DVDs, but they have fixed several aspects of the IO-slaves in Konqueror that were breaking right at the end of KDE3 as the developers were losing interest. I will happily be using Trinity for the foreseeable future. |
| Francy Feb 11, 2014 10:11 AM EDT |
............. the fact that the K3b doesn't do well with verifying written DVDs @ Bob.... I have reason to believe that <this> bug is not trinity related. I have it on my normal up to date distro as well, for the last few years. Also, not every one got is, with same distro and version number. However, I have done some experiments a good year ago. Burned DVD size iso with K3b, which all failed either on burn or verification, but when verifying with other means, they are OK But of course, I could be wrong ! Also, maybe this maybe that,,,you know ! Anyway, I always use acetoneiso for DVD, but for anything else, I use K3b Thanks for the warning anyway. I will watch it. |
| dhcolesj Feb 11, 2014 10:27 AM EDT |
I am constantly amazed at how the developers of some projects refuse to listen to the users of the project. I have had multiple and continual problems with kmail/kontact since they did that whole akonadai and nepomuk integration, and yet after hundreds of requests to separate the two, they keep justifying it, and refusing to give the users a choice. Doesn't THAT fly in the face of the idea behind Linux and KDE in the first place? sigh. I don't like Thunderbird, as it's missing some of the best parts of kmail, but I"m at my wits end, and fed up with running my i7 based laptop like it was a 386 because of the resource hogs (akonadai and nepomuk). |
| jdixon Feb 11, 2014 11:21 AM EDT |
> ...and yet after hundreds of requests to separate the two, they keep justifying it, and refusing to give the users a choice. Doesn't THAT fly in the face of the idea behind Linux and KDE in the first place? If enough people get upset then maybe someone will decide to fork Kmail and write a non-Akonadi tied version. In fact, from the other thread on this subject, I believe someone has done just that. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 11, 2014 12:13 PM EDT |
Francy, The K3b-Trinity application, as with the KDE3 app before it, writes the disks just fine, there simply seems to be an issue with ejecting/reloading the disk to read it back for verification. The K3b in KDE4 has no problems at all, which is why I expect the developers just didn't bother fixing it when they set their sights on KDE4. |
| cr Feb 11, 2014 4:29 PM EDT |
> hopefully it will be approved and posted some time today. It's posted and I've replied here. > K3b doesn't do well with verifying written DVDs Or CDs. > I will happily be using Trinity for the foreseeable future. Ditto. I'm currently running two TDE machines: one, a Tribuntu (TDE 3.5.13.2 over Ubuntu 12.04 LTS), the other a Sparky live-install (TDE 3.5.13.2 over Wheezy). |
| Ridcully Feb 11, 2014 5:43 PM EDT |
Very nice Bob_Robertson, and congratulations.......I hope to trial the Trinity DE on openSUSE.....and I am informed that Trinity is somewhere in it's repositories already. That may be an error....but if true, then it is possible that the entire stock of openSUSE software is available, including K3b. @dhcolesj.....you have, so to speak, hit on what I consider is the real centre of the problem. Here's how I see it now, given the benefit of having written these articles on the topic: KDE was originally designed for the individual user and those users still remain a huge user base. The direction the developers have taken KDE4 however, is right away from that user base and straight into the requirements of enormous networked systems that are used in large corporations, industry, research, government, etc. They have modified the desktop operation to conform with those requirements and literally forgotten about the individual user's needs, which have always been simplicity, speed and ease of use. KDE4 can't be recommended for an individual user any more. When you start reading the comments about how disabling the semantic packages leads to higher speeds on the desktop and less hdd activity, you need to think about that in the context of the fact that KDE4 is forcing your personal computer to try to do what the enormously powerful network servers can do without blinking an eye. It's no wonder that when running a non-disabled KDE4 on openSUSE 12.1, I began to be concerned that I would end up with hdd damage due to the incredible stresses the system was placing on that component. The more articles that appear which castigate the KDE4 system as it currently stands, the better, as far as I am concerned. Options are now appearing in all directions. If you do anything about searches on the subject, you will be amazed at what you find and there is serious annoyance in many quarters over the direction the KDE4 devs have taken. You like KMail, good.......so do I........it's my preference. YOu can get it in the Trinity desktop which is a very updated and modernised KDE3.5, or you can try the option of the earlier KDEPIM package which you can find in a link on the other thread attached to this article.....An even more interesting option is to do what I am doing and that is running KDE4.6 on openSUSE 11.4.....This uses the last version of KMail before it was corrupted and emasculated, and while Akonadi runs, my experience is that it does virtually nothing and is only attached to Kontact......which I have never opened and never used in any way. openSUSE 11.4 is supported by the Evergreen project until this mid-year, but it is possible it may go on further. I'd like to mention that my daughter uses this same system but has not had Evergreen support activated, so she is using a totally unsupported version of openSUSE 11.4. Nevertheless, it still runs perfectly and as she remarked: All my friends report problems with malware on their Windows machines......I have much satisfaction in saying I get no such problems and they all look amazed; but then go back to their messes. She reckons it's a case of "better the devil you know........." |
| cr Feb 11, 2014 6:08 PM EDT |
They're hooked on street-dirty Windowpain. I rely on pure LSB. |
| slacker_mike Feb 13, 2014 10:45 AM EDT |
Ridcully, another very interesting article, thank you for your time and effort. |
| Ridcully Feb 13, 2014 6:33 PM EDT |
My pleasure _slacker_mike.....do please go over to the kmail thread (http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/35181/) for my next set of comments on this "saga" as they are addressed to you and they summarise pretty much where I find myself at the moment. Thankyou. |
| BernardSwiss Feb 13, 2014 11:28 PM EDT |
Quoting: They're hooked on street-dirty Windowpain. I rely on pure LSB. {groan} {applause} |
| RollMeAway Jul 14, 2014 9:55 PM EDT |
After disabling via the gui as you have outlined, a couple more steps.
From a root terminal: #chmod 600 /usr/bin/akon* #chmod 600 /usr/bin/nepo* and for recent versions of kde4: #chmod 600 /usr/bin/balo* None of those semantic hogs can execute now. Reboot, or manually kill all running instances. I believe the "semantic desktop" is being pushed and financed by various government and business organizations. Zeitgeist, based on NEPOMUK and used in GNOME and the Ubuntu Unity user interface, is yet another intruder of our privacy. |
| penguinist Jul 15, 2014 10:35 AM EDT |
Quoting:I believe the "semantic desktop" is being pushed and financed by various government and business organizations. This had also occurred to me but I didn't mention it for fear of being accused of wearing a tinfoil hat. It does seem strange that kde devs are so insistent on cataloging user's files and making them accessible and searchable even when users are telling them to stop it. If the kde devs are not listening to users, then who _are_ they listening to? |
| notbob Jul 15, 2014 12:04 PM EDT |
> personally its fluxbox Ridicully, while this article is certainly thorough in it depth, it's also pretty much ado about nothing. I saw no mention of fluxbox in the main piece, which is weird, as you admit using it and yet do not give it credit as a simple solution. Why not? I run Slackware 14.1 with the fluxbox as my DE. I also have the full KDE DE installed. Guess what! Akonadi and Nepomuk are never an issue, as neither one, nor their associated files/db's/etc, ever boots under fluxbox. Yes, I use K3b, glenview, okular, konsole, and even occasionally dolphin. I don't use kmail, but seamonkey and its associated email suite. It's my opinion ohsonasty and neopuke are non issues and should be treated as such. Besides, the Semantic desktop (?) is the antithesis of all things good about Linux. It's a central repository for your personal info. With the NSA creeping into every nook and cranny of our cyber lives, is this what we want? I certainly don't. It's also anti-unix, as its interdependence is designed in. It's not the unix way of a lotta small dedicated applications that do one thing well yet can still be linked. One could make the same arguement about KDE and Seamonkey, but I can handle those (I like to think). Fluxbox helps tremendously to this end by keeping KDE applications isolated until summoned. ;) |
| Ridcully Jul 15, 2014 6:35 PM EDT |
Umm....notbob, I think you are in error in the above post. It was "Alcibiades" that made the comment of "personally it's fluxbox" in his first posting on the thread, right at the top. I have never used fluxbox, do not know the software at all and therefore could not make any such comment. (I did a search on the word "fluxbox" and I didn't use it.) I don't think the article is "much ado about nothing" however.....I intended to expose what I considered was the deliberate sabotage/destruction/overcomplexity by the developers of KDE4 of a previously wonderful window manager, and purely (as far as I can see) because developers want to develop and develop and develop until they destroy the very beautiful simplicity, ease of use and low CPU and memory operations of what they are developing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is my maxim, but KDE4 developers develop until the software is "broken". In my view this is very much ado about something very important. I've already said much the same on other threads attached to the article series and in the articles themselves so it gets a bit repetitious to say it all again. And also again at the risk of being repetitious: Before they rise in indignation and distress, I know that there are KDE4 users that LOVE what has been done to the software package. As I also have said previously: Fine, enjoy, great.....but I do NOT like the "software monster" that I believe KDE4 has become. If I do move to a simpler manager, notbob, I think it would be Xfce......it is now an exciting, simple and easily configured desktop manager and very reminiscent of what KDE3.5 offered in terms of ease of use. Oh, and thankyou for the very nice compliment. I sometimes go back and read what I wrote in the heat of author composition and shudder a little.....but I still agree personally with the main thrust of what I had to say. Minor update.......I just checked and openSUSE 11.4 with KDE4.6 is still shown as active on the Evergreen site even though support ends this month. This is the system I am currently using and I am hoping that Evergreen keeps supporting 11.4 until mid 2015 which would give the three years of support that is supposed to occur. If not, then I shall have to shift to a much newer version of openSUSE.....It's my preferred OS purely because I know it so well and am used to its foibles - so to speak. KDE4.6 is the last version where it operates normally. From then on Akonadi rules. |
| TxtEdMacs Jul 15, 2014 7:15 PM EDT |
Quoting: I know that there are KDE4 users that LOVE what has been done to the software package. Sure there are. But they are NSA spooks, I know. I'm in contact with them all day sending fiction about the terrorist tendencies of those on LXer that are Linux users, but detest KDE 4+, Gnome 3 and recently Unity renditions. Especially those that encrypt their storage media. The works steady, the checks are on time and they don't bounce. However, the rate is low so I am working on my upcoming career of as a writer of fiction. I hope it does not cause anyone undue harm. But that's life and someone has to take the hard knocks. Maybe I will do film later, e.g. an conspiracy spy adventure series. Sorry got to run and pledge my allegiance to N.S.A. (not the republic, U.S.A.). As always, YBT |
| jdixon Jul 15, 2014 9:58 PM EDT |
> I'm in contact with them all day sending fiction about the terrorist tendencies of those on LXer that are Linux users, but detest KDE 4+, Gnome 3 and recently Unity renditions. Oh, I'm worse than that, Txt. I'm a registered Libertarian and post to libertarian sites too. Plus I own guns and I'm a former DOD employee.. I'm on their list at least 5 times over. |
| BernardSwiss Jul 16, 2014 1:04 AM EDT |
> I'm in contact with them all day sending fiction about the terrorist tendencies of those on LXer that are Linux users, but detest KDE 4+, Gnome 3 and recently Unity renditions As long as you also rat out those on LXer that aren't actual Linux users, that's probably OK -- we'll forgive you... eventually. |
| TxtEdMacs Jul 16, 2014 2:19 AM EDT |
Quoting: [...] probably OK -- we'll forgive you... eventually. By then I hope I don't care, since I will be a Best Selling author of schlock fiction. Me ... famous, wow. jd, please don't confuse me with facts just reduces my innovative creative powers. Applies to you too, B.S. Non users of Linux on LXer!? Now that's imaginative. Doubt it since MS has laid off attacks of disinformation on smaller sites. YBT |
| Ridcully Jul 16, 2014 8:05 AM EDT |
Just to throw a few more cans of kerosene onto the fire, by sheer happenchance I logged onto a KDE4 site to see what improvements had taken place. Here's the site: https://dot.kde.org/2014/02/24/kdes-next-generation-semantic... It's dealing with questions and problems related to the semantic search desktop, the principal "mongrel piece of software" that began this whole series of my essays (last year) into what was wrong with KDE4. You'll see as you read the thread, that the developers are committed to making this "monster" work even though it is fighting back with each line of code. But even so, as late as February this year, at least one of its users was still yodelling the fact that Akonadi has sabotaged KMail. REALLY ? TRULY ? I mean to say, THAT was the principal theme of my "articles". Here's a direct quote from the page: Quoting:Akonadi ruined Kmail... Now that is one heck of a remarkable reply.....think about it.......I'm left sitting with mouth open. I strongly suggest anyone with an interest in how KDE4's development team has botched up its attempts to deploy the semantic desktop should then read down to the next post by Heikki Välisuo at Mon, 2014/03/03 - 11:37am. It's a staggering indictment and it makes the implication that the developers consider "users are only an annoyance to be ignored". How very nice to see that truth on the actual KDE4 page. A little further down are comments that suggest that KDE4's PIM is simply a "mass of bugs".......how very, very nice.......Sorry, I am being cynical. :-), but at this stage, I think I am entitled to be just a teensy bit cynical ......possibly disgusted even. Update I just read a little further down and encountered Hans Bezemer's comments about the semantic desktop. He made an obvious suggestion which I think is a very good one: "wouldn't it be smart to make it (the semantic desktop) OPTIONAL this time?" Jos Poortvliet's response is so arrogant in its "put-down" that I am no longer surprised that he continues to persevere with the mess that the KDE4 semantic desktop has become. Hans did NOT deserve such a childish response from a principal player in the KDE4 development arena. With respect to Poortvliet's final paragraph, I can only say that I have a similar opinion of his own work. |
| Bob_Robertson Jul 16, 2014 8:48 AM EDT |
6 years. |
| TxtEdMacs Jul 16, 2014 9:49 AM EDT |
RE: B._R. -- 6 years. (?) Meaning? Development years or prison term? As always, YBT |
| TxtEdMacs Jul 16, 2014 10:37 AM EDT |
My Dearest, Nicest Mr./Dr./Professor(?) Ridiculous: I finally, quickly scanned your article. I am astounded (seriously) at the effort expended on what must be perceived only as a steaming pile of what is unmentionable on LXer. Your sincerity, your polite factual statements amaze me. To me those are none other than pearls dropped before swine. While known to be an extremely intelligent beasts, they are terribly uncouth in their dietary hhabits and personal hygiene. Saying that, you only top it off with a degree of apparent naiveté I find breath taking. Reasonable suggestions given freely to the KDE development team that is known to be extremely hostile to any hint someone is piercing their bubble with objective questioning. Are you mad? Or do you model yourself on persons that endured extreme, unnecessary pain being inflicted upon them? You must realize these stories stem from the myths either in the older or newer version of one sacred book. Take note, some of the evil heaped upon that first person were physically impossible. The latter version was written by those that were not even born at the time of their story's unfolding. And those that were there had met fairly early demises. Moreover, with respect to the latter there is another sacred book version that tells it completely differently. So please take care. Seeing what you have opened yourself to, I will limit myself to no more than usual degree of derision aimed at your person. However, even I quake fearing the evil response that will befall you now that you have publicly posted your incendiary words of reason ... As always, YBT |
| Bob_Robertson Jul 16, 2014 12:24 PM EDT |
It's been 6 years since KDE4. |
| NoDough Jul 16, 2014 12:41 PM EDT |
> ...a steaming pile of what is unmentionable on LXer. Politics? |
| notbob Jul 16, 2014 12:49 PM EDT |
> notbob, I think you are in error in the above post. I would think LXers would by now be aware of my astonishing power to error. It's becomes ever more formidable, daily. Still, my apologies. ;) > I don't think the article is "much ado about nothing" however An understatement. That you expended so much effort and went into such detail is commendable, if not entirely understandable. But IMO, it's still a non-issue. KDE, like Gnome, is a beast that is irrevocably lost to the arrogant developers and will never be the same no matter how logically eloquent the protests. This was made crystal clear when they abandoned Quanta+ and when the head of the Gnome development team bragged on how Gnome 3 was now easier than ever for developers to do their unbridled worst. I choose to use what I still find helpful in KDE and stifle the rest. Feel free to rage against the machine. ;) |
| RollMeAway Jul 20, 2014 12:44 AM EDT |
Some might find it interesting, that the distribution mageia, when installed from a LIVE CD,
does NOT install akonadi. This is true for version 4 and 5-alpha.
Only one nepomuk pkg is installed and it can be disabled as noted above. Gentoo did allow compiling kde4 with the USE flag -semantic-desktop. Not sure if it still works. No other distro, that I am aware of, can do this. Makes you wonder: Why don't other distros do this? |
| JaseP Jul 20, 2014 4:08 AM EDT |
Quoting: Makes you wonder: Why don't other distros do this? Just a guess: Path of least resistance?!?! |
| Ridcully Jul 20, 2014 4:35 AM EDT |
Both Hans Bezemer and myself have made an obvious suggestion to the KDE4 development teams: Make the semantic desktop OPTIONAL....so that the USER has the choice whether to activate it .....or not. The fact that the KDE4 team has ignored this suggestion, spells out precisely the attitude that they have to the ultimate user base: "You will use what we give you and like it......and your comments, whether constructive or not, have no value to us." Jos Poortvliet has supplied this implied message "in spades" in the KDE4 blog cited above. Arrogant ? Yes. Contempt for the user base ? Yes. Short-sighted ? Yes. I do NOT understand this attitude in the developers. By making the entire semantic desktop package (including Nepomuk/Baloo and Akonadi) activation a user option, the developers would satisfy everybody on this particular aspect. You could install either KDE-PIM as a Unix based system, or KDE-PIM as an Akonadi dependent system. But wait.......it's probably too hard a development path for them to take; it may need really, really good coding skills; oh well, then, it probably can't be done - or can it ? Perhaps JaseP is right on target.....KDE4 developers have taken the path of least resistance. |
| JaseP Jul 20, 2014 6:45 AM EDT |
I was thinking more in terms of the distribution packagers than KDE developers... It's easier just to build a package with the defaults than to tweak it... Additionally,... As far as the KDE developers go, Ridcully's kinda right on target, himself. They give us want they want to give us,... no (or few) options. That travels right to the new settings for touchscreens. Apparently, if KDE detects a touchscreen, you get the touchscreen "activity" by default. I don't know how much choice you get as far as changing that default, or what it's like,... But if it's anything like the KDE netbook interface, it's cr@p. |
| jdixon Jul 20, 2014 9:28 AM EDT |
> Why don't other distros do this? Slackware has a policy of shipping a package as much as possible the way the developers set it up. It does give you the tools you need to compile your own packages, but something like KDE is not for the faint of heart. As for other distros, who knows. |
| notbob Jul 20, 2014 9:32 AM EDT |
So, ridicully is "right on target". And everyone pretty much agrees. Now what? The beauty of Linux is, it's infinitely customizable. Sure, you gotta do a little homework and dig in elbo deep, but that's the price of freedom. So, instead of whining about how KDE developers are insufferable sucktards, which amounts to essentially whizzing into the wind, do what it takes to resolve the situation on yer preferred distro. I've pointed out one solution. Install KDE, in its entirety, then use a different WM/DE to both enhance and limit KDE's bizarre functionality. Ridicully, yer article was more than thorough, but to what point? You think KDE developers give a rat's patoot? Both KDE and Gnome devs have long ago made it painfully clear that the user's desires/needs are not on their agenda. Better you should put all that exemplary effort into finding ways to to get around KDE's shortcomings rather than jes pointing them out. ;) |
| notbob Jul 20, 2014 9:44 AM EDT |
> but something like KDE is not for the faint of heart. So, instead of butting heads with KDE, go around it. Use its size/weight to yer advantage. Slack's fluxbox is already set up to take advantage. It's menus even reflect the change from 3.5 to 4.x, with apps like okular and gwenview already present on FB menus. I'm sure any slack user would be more than willing to give you copies of their .fluxbox files. Not sure if Slack's other DE menus (xfce, fvwm2, etc) have been similarly configured. |
| jdixon Jul 20, 2014 3:34 PM EDT |
> Not sure if Slack's other DE menus (xfce, fvwm2, etc) have been similarly configured. XFCE has. I haven't checked the others. |
| Ridcully Jul 20, 2014 6:24 PM EDT |
Hi Notbob, Your masterly summation of: "You think KDE developers give a rat's patoot? Both KDE and Gnome devs have long ago made it painfully clear that the user's desires/needs are not on their agenda. Better you should put all that exemplary effort into finding ways to to get around KDE's shortcomings rather than jes pointing them out. ;)" is quite accurate. For your information, two days ago, I tried installing openSUSE 13.1 with the latest version of KDE4....and began my usual litany of disgust.......Even with Akonadi not yet activated (I didn't touch KMail), KWallet was already up and running (and I certainly didn't ask for that to happen). And so the usual immediately began to happen after I installed Chrome.....KWallet began to interfere with my use. I have now made a decision which I am determined to adhere to......after I remove myself from openSUSE 11.4 and KDE 4.6 (my present system), I will be moving to openSUSE 13.1 and Xfce. There really is no alternative if I want a DE that does what I, me, myself want it to do. Xfce is familiar enough to me to be able to be modified and it doesn't try to tell me what I absolutely MUST do in order to operate the window manager. I do not have to bow to arrogant developers who believe that they have the right to operate my computer as THEY see fit... It has reached the stage where I seriously believe that Microsoft Window's code of ethics is stencilled on the wall of every KDE4 developer - especially the sections on "removal of choice". Well, that's fine...but in the world of Linux there are always other options to be taken if one particular choice is taken away. What saddens me so much is that KDE has always, always, always been my DE of choice........that is no longer the case. KDE4 in its latest versions is now, in my opinion, a clumsy, bloated, overdeveloped, overcomplex and interfering software package that demands that you WILL do as the developers wish. For this little user, that's not the case anymore - I am mature enough to make my own choices thankyou. Vale KDE - you have lost one of your most dedicated supporters and users. As I once remarked: I can no longer recommend KDE as a DE to any newcomer, and that's awfully sad. But true ! |
| jdixon Jul 20, 2014 9:12 PM EDT |
> will be moving to openSUSE 13.1 and Xfce. Welcome to the club Ridcully. I've been using XFCE for years now, since both Gnome and KDE were too much for my older systems. It's somewhat ironic that when I finally got a system powerful enough to handle them, they both self destructed. XFCE isn't perfect, but as you said: It's familiar, it can be configured to work the way you want, and it doesn't get it your way. > I seriously believe that Microsoft Window's code of ethics is stencilled on the wall of every KDE4 developer. And Gnome developers. You know, if I were a conspiracy theorist, I could really make some hay with what's happened with KDE and Gnome over the past several years. |
| Ridcully Jul 21, 2014 3:55 AM EDT |
Thanks Jdixon......if I get into strife, I'll be calling on you for help. Not likely, but with a brand new DE, there will be some things to learn. Fun though......and I understand Xfce flies in comparison with KDE. It won't happen yet, but what I think I will do is dump the KDE/OpenSUSE 13.1 installation, format the hdd and install the same OS with Xfce from scratch......Best way to go I think......then in my many spare moments (said with very large tongue in cheek), I will begin to set the system and Xfce up the way I wish to have it. I am looking forward to it very much. Do please note that fact KDE4 team.........You and me ain't finished yet and I have a new motto: "KDE4, the desktop manager you use when you wish to cede desktop control to the KDE4 Development Team." |
| krisum Jul 21, 2014 4:43 AM EDT |
> and I understand Xfce flies in comparison with KDE Cinnamon (first exposed to it in Mint) is my current favourite at providing a nice blend of attractiveness and non-interference. It does seem to be in official opensuse repos too: http://linuxg.net/how-to-install-cinnamon-1-6-1-on-opensuse-... |
| jdixon Jul 21, 2014 9:14 AM EDT |
> ...if I get into strife, I'll be calling on you for help. I never make promises, Ridcully, but I'm always willing to try to help. :) |
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