Boot problems in non-systemd GNU/Linux Distros

Forum: LinuxTotal Replies: 23
Author Content
me1010

Nov 19, 2014
8:09 PM EST
Per 'deal' with @jazz...

Starting tomorrow I will post the first set of three unsolved boot problems found in non-systemd GNU/Linux distributions. M. Jazz, please let me know if the problems listed do not conform to your expectations of what I should be trying to find.
linux4567

Nov 19, 2014
11:02 PM EST
What exactly is the point of this thread?

With every init system you can have boot problems, the huge advantage of sysv and upstart is that in practice (in a real live situation where a sysadmin is working on a server that's refusing to start up) it's far easier to solve them with sysv or upstart due to their script and plain text based nature compared to the binary spaghetti monster with binary logs that is systemd.

Or are trying to point out again that with upstart you can artificially construct a situation where there is an endless loop during boot? While that might be true it's a purely theoretical construct that in practice can be easily avoided.
kikinovak

Nov 20, 2014
1:54 AM EST
The point of this thread is that me1010 will keep on posting until everybody on the Internet loves systemd.
number6x

Nov 20, 2014
7:52 AM EST
Upstart had a lot of problems. The complaints were not ignored (well a few were), but instead fixed.

Then it became stable.

It had new features, and was missing a few old features.

The process worked.

Sytemd can be fixed, but the first step is to stop ignoring most of the complaints about design problems. If half the effort responding to complaints about design went in to fixing the complaints, systemd would be awesome instead of 'not sensible'.
jazz

Nov 20, 2014
8:18 AM EST
I think this format will work:

Start with a link to something recent - yesterday on slashdot in this example:

http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/19/043259/debian-votes...

Then bring in the relevant text:

Quoting:My favorite was when I apt-get upgraded my (headless) machine, which would then refuse to boot. No SSH access, just an emergency shell (very annoying for a headless machine). The problem? I didn't have my external USB hard disk -- which had an /etc/fstab entry -- plugged in.


If there are more, bring them in one by one:

Quoting:I'm running arch. Arch moved to systemd before I understood the issues at stake. I feel the systemd pain every day. I'm trying to get multi-head with nouveau working ...and I don't understand why "systemctl isolate multi-user.target" vs. "systemctl isolate graphical.target" [try explaining THAT pair of command lines to start with] can't be expected to be as dependable as "telinit 3" vs. "telinit 5".
me1010

Nov 20, 2014
8:18 AM EST
First installation of problems to be solved.

Crunchbang Help Forum:

http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=37875

Ubuntu Help Forum:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2240385

Ubuntu Open Bug Report:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1088185

EDIT: feel free to join the appropriate forums and solve the users' problems there... or file patches for open bugs... or just discuss it here... I'll work on things as I have time. I can continue posting issues daily or wait until these three are solved.
jazz

Nov 20, 2014
9:30 AM EST
Quoting:Crunchbang Help Forum:

http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=37875


Read again, the user complains about "If I leave an sd card in the reader it slows down crunchbang as it seems to be checking for caching mode page on the sd card.". Look for bugs where the computer doesn't boot. Slowing down the boot process is not exactly our focus here.

Quoting:Ubuntu Help Forum:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2240385


From August 19th, 2014. The problem was solved by "You need to get into the BIOS of the machine and change the boot order to boot from the CD."

BIOS and sysv init are two different things. We are looking for sysv init problems.

Quoting:Ubuntu Open Bug Report:

[url=https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/linux/ bug/1088185]https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/linux/ bug/1088185[/url]



Reported by BeowulfOF on 2012-12-09. You must be joking! I gave you 4 systemd bugs reported yesterday on slashdot, and all you can find is 2012-12-09?
me1010

Nov 20, 2014
9:37 AM EST
@jazz:

You gave me a list of complaints from slashdot. These complaints contain exactly zero information as to the machine, the precise OS, the kernel configuration, whether or not the user has tried to work with systemd documentation, etc, etc, etc...

systemd is different, so requires people to read and learn. Of course, if someone is trying to use systemd and is not interested in reading how to use it, there are going to be problems...

I've provided actual problems listed by actual people. These problems may be solved or not solved. One is an open bug report on a non-systemd machine that does not work well with btrfs. I'm not sure how or why you feel that my list is unjustified, but yours is...

So, try to fix the open bug report, or go away.

EDIT:

I just looked again my posted list... they are not solved... I don't know where you see they are... but I do see a name I reconize posting something today:

http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=405494#p405494

Stop complaining and become part of the solution... I really don't care which solution... systemd or anti-systemd... just stop complaining, especially without even attempting to understand the problem.
jazz

Nov 20, 2014
9:51 AM EST
No need to take it personally. I gave you 4 bugs reported on slashdot yesterday, you have a single bug so far - from 2012! Try to do a better job, or the game is over before it even started.
JaseP

Nov 20, 2014
9:53 AM EST
Quoting: I've provided actual problems listed by actual people. These problems may be solved or not solved. One is an open bug report on a non-systemd machine that does not work well with btrfs. I'm not sure how or why you feel that my list is unjustified, but yours is...


No,... jazz is right,... You list problems that are not specifically non-systemd problems as issues, and OLD ones, to boot (excuse the pun),...

Listing a problem with booting from a btrfs partition on a 2 year old distro (when btrfs was still considered a very experimental file system) as an issue with a non-systemd boot ?!?!,... Listing a hardware issue (USB boot order selection) as a problem with non-systemd boot ?!?!,...

These issues have nothing to do with the difference between systemd and non-systemd init systems,...
me1010

Nov 20, 2014
9:55 AM EST
@jazz:

slashdot postings are not bug reports. sorry, you lose.
CFWhitman

Nov 20, 2014
9:55 AM EST
Well, for the first issue the enquirer doesn't know much about what he's doing, so it may turn out to be difficult to help him.

The second issue is completely unrelated to any initialization or even any operating system. The computer is failing to recognize any bootable CD. If the information the poster gives is accurate, it would appear to be a hardware problem.

The third issue appears to have been a kernel related bug, but I will say that it was rather adventurous to try and use btrfs on your boot or root partition for Ubuntu 12.10 (actually, I think it's still adventurous now, regardless of distro). At any rate, that version of Ubuntu is no longer supported.
me1010

Nov 20, 2014
10:00 AM EST
@CFWhitman:

Thank you.
jazz

Nov 20, 2014
11:01 AM EST
Quoting:slashdot postings are not bug reports.


Slashdot is as good as any. Probably 99. 9% of all linux customer support takes place on forums, IRC, mailing lists, discussion groups, LUG meetings. Very few problems will ever make it in distro bugzilla. Even fewer will go into developer bugzilla.

As of now you have 0 problems found, the one with btrfs on the boot partition in is outside sysv init scope - thanks CFWhitman.

You really need to start digging. I promise to post here 10 systemd problems reported in the last 24 hours for every sysv problem in the last 5 years you manage to find.

systemd - 4 bugs

sysv int - 0 bugs
me1010

Nov 20, 2014
11:12 AM EST
@jazz:

Slashdot may be an ok forum for people who are like minded, but it definitely is not a bug report listing. I'm sorry, you have not answered in an appropriate way. I will not engage any further with you until you do.

Have a nice day. And I really do wish you well.
jazz

Nov 20, 2014
11:23 AM EST
I am still waiting for your problems, you didn't post any. The thread name is "Boot problems in non-systemd GNU/Linux Distros". The problems reported are systemd problems. Where are the non-systemd problems? Why did you open the discussion if you have nothing to say?

Quoting:I'm sorry, you have not answered in an appropriate way.


What? You were expecting me to post sysv init problems here?

Re slashdot:

Problems are problems. You seem to confuse them with bug reports. We agreed to talk about problems. You put "problems" in the discussion name.
number6x

Nov 20, 2014
11:26 AM EST
There are currently many open bugs for sysvinit in debian:

[url]https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=sysvinit;exclude=pending %3Apending-fixed;exclude=pending%3Afixed;exclude=pending%3Adone#_0_3_4[/url]

debian is one of the most widely used sysvinit distros, so this should be a good sampling of current problems users are having with sysvinit.

about 48 important bugs that are not yet fixed. Reading through them many are requests for enhancements and not true bugs like ' initscripts: Should not fsck when laptop is running on battery'.

jazz

Nov 20, 2014
11:37 AM EST
@number6x:

Yes, there are lots of sysv bugs in Debian, and you will have there lots of requests for enhancements. Also, this is a system widely deployed in this moment, it is normal to have all kind of bugs logged into Debian bugzilla. I am amazed me1010 couldn't find any to post here.
me1010

Nov 20, 2014
11:45 AM EST
@number6x:

I had problems posting long urls or urls with spaces until I noticed that I could use:

[url][/url]
The only place that seems to list the allowable tags is when you hit 'preview' instead of 'send'... There also seems to be some general line spacing oddities. Some tags insert a carriage return after the tag and some don't. It'd be great to have a [list] tag for both ordered and unordered lists.
kikinovak

Nov 20, 2014
1:50 PM EST
When Wheezy goes EOL and all the admins of public Debian servers will have no choice than to perform an "apt-get dist-upgrade" to Jesse, then I'll probably grab some popcorn, read the Debian forums and enjoy the sight of a slow-motion train wreck.
number6x

Nov 20, 2014
2:23 PM EST
I use a lot of debian and Red Hat at work, so I am always searching if something I have is already a bug. Often a good way to find a fix if it is just a small error and can be fixed with a config file change or an init script change.

It is really not a lot of open tickets for such a core piece of software, including the wishlist. If sysvinit were inadequate, the wishlist would be in the thousands.
JaseP

Nov 20, 2014
5:02 PM EST
Quoting: It is really not a lot of open tickets for such a core piece of software, including the wishlist. If sysvinit were inadequate, the wishlist would be in the thousands.


But when you are a hammer, every problem is a nail,... and everything that is not a nail is a problem,... That's the issue with Poettering. The real question is,... What kind of tool is Poettering???
number6x

Nov 20, 2014
5:14 PM EST
I don't think he has experienced the kind of failure you need to become a really good programmer.
me1010

Nov 20, 2014
5:21 PM EST
I suppose this thread shall be re-christened...

The systemd Rant Thread

Good Luck all!

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