The Swiss Army Distro - Might Someone Finally Be Getting It?
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Comments (22)
Too many choices... new user confused?!
> The Swiss Army Distro - Might Someone Finally Be Getting It?
Umm, Debian, anyone?
> I think it's about time we stopped treating new users as if they were completely stupid.
Agreed, though to be fair, some are.
Umm, Debian, anyone?
> I think it's about time we stopped treating new users as if they were completely stupid.
Agreed, though to be fair, some are.
I tend to agree as well.
The thing is, if the choice is so confusing for new users they'll probably be looking for some guidance anyway, in which case those who they seek guidance from can pick what they deem to be the best choices for them. Just because there are so many distros doesn't mean we all have to advertise and offer all of them to those to whom we advocate, advertise and market GNU/Linux.
For example, GetGNULinux.org introduces people to the OS, the general idea behind it and recommends only three distros for three general types of audiences: Ubuntu, Fedora and gNewSense (for those jumping in 100% convinced in the idea of Free Software ;) ). http://www.getgnulinux.org/switch_to_linux/choose_a_distribu...
The thing is, if the choice is so confusing for new users they'll probably be looking for some guidance anyway, in which case those who they seek guidance from can pick what they deem to be the best choices for them. Just because there are so many distros doesn't mean we all have to advertise and offer all of them to those to whom we advocate, advertise and market GNU/Linux.
For example, GetGNULinux.org introduces people to the OS, the general idea behind it and recommends only three distros for three general types of audiences: Ubuntu, Fedora and gNewSense (for those jumping in 100% convinced in the idea of Free Software ;) ). http://www.getgnulinux.org/switch_to_linux/choose_a_distribu...
How many distros do potential users actually encounter? How many of them are affected by the choice of Parsix or Kiwi?
I see no problem with the existence of too many distros (whatever the heck that means - as if our only goal is to reduce confusion of potential Linux users).
I see no problem with the existence of too many distros (whatever the heck that means - as if our only goal is to reduce confusion of potential Linux users).
I find the uninitiated to be confused by the basic concepts of "distribution", "operating system" and "desktop environment". Someone once waddled over to my desk and looked at my laptop, running KDE on a 'buntu setup. He looked, and went "Wow, is that Linux? I did not realise it looked this good". I had to explain these concepts to him at this point. Not sure if I was successful.
Libveris, you just gave me an idea for a website:
UnderstandLinux.org
A site whose time has come.
UnderstandLinux.org
A site whose time has come.
> I had to explain these concepts to him at this point.
I think the auto/breakfast cereal concept seems to work fairly well. Taking the cereal approach; Ubuntu is like Kellogg's Corn Flakes, Kubuntu is like Kelloggg's Frosted Flakes, Xubuntu is like Kellogg's Corn Flakes with banana's or strawberries, Debian is like a generic corn flakes, the other distro's are like Cheerios, wheat bran, etc...
Slackware is like Cream of Wheat, some cooking required, but the taste difference is worth it. :)
Using the auto analogy, Unbuntu is like Ford, Red Hat is GM, etc. KDE is a gas guzzling V-8, Gnome is a V-6, and XFCE is a four cylinder, etc.
I think the auto/breakfast cereal concept seems to work fairly well. Taking the cereal approach; Ubuntu is like Kellogg's Corn Flakes, Kubuntu is like Kelloggg's Frosted Flakes, Xubuntu is like Kellogg's Corn Flakes with banana's or strawberries, Debian is like a generic corn flakes, the other distro's are like Cheerios, wheat bran, etc...
Slackware is like Cream of Wheat, some cooking required, but the taste difference is worth it. :)
Using the auto analogy, Unbuntu is like Ford, Red Hat is GM, etc. KDE is a gas guzzling V-8, Gnome is a V-6, and XFCE is a four cylinder, etc.
Thanks a lot jdixon.
I use Slackware.
And I hate Cream of Wheat. >|-P
I use Slackware.
And I hate Cream of Wheat. >|-P
> And I hate Cream of Wheat. >|-P
Substitute oatmeal or your hot cereal of choice.
What did those poor little wheat kernels ever do to you anyway? :)
Substitute oatmeal or your hot cereal of choice.
What did those poor little wheat kernels ever do to you anyway? :)
gus3:
> Libveris, you just gave me an idea for a website:
> UnderstandLinux.org
Sounds like a good idea, though there may already be some who are doing what that sound may be about. But then again, I am not against the idea of competing even in how best to present Linux to people.
I've had some ideas myself.. :)
Cheers
> Libveris, you just gave me an idea for a website:
> UnderstandLinux.org
Sounds like a good idea, though there may already be some who are doing what that sound may be about. But then again, I am not against the idea of competing even in how best to present Linux to people.
I've had some ideas myself.. :)
Cheers
It's not that hard to figure out. For those newbies with a rather quick inet connection; I'd point them to this nice pic:
http://futurist.se/gldt/gldt76.png
and they'll undertstand there are only a few real choices; and the rest is just some tiny differences. nLite, XPLite, WinXP OEM / Retail, slipstream software where SP3 is included, pirated "Office 2003 pre-installed" WinXP from Atjih and Deera etc. don't make up different distributions of Windows either, do they? That's the thing you should explain to Windows users complaining about too many choice.
http://futurist.se/gldt/gldt76.png
and they'll undertstand there are only a few real choices; and the rest is just some tiny differences. nLite, XPLite, WinXP OEM / Retail, slipstream software where SP3 is included, pirated "Office 2003 pre-installed" WinXP from Atjih and Deera etc. don't make up different distributions of Windows either, do they? That's the thing you should explain to Windows users complaining about too many choice.
It sounds like a project worth putting a little effort into, just for some preliminary organization and graphics. Just to see what I could come up with, and see if I think it would be worth the greater effort of a full site.
I think the author forgets that the corner stone of OSS and FOSS is choice. The more you have the better off you are.
With choice comes the inevitable confusion. After it clears and you "get it", the choice is a blessing.
If I had to run Ubuntu, I'd end it now. As it is I prefer the flexibility and speed of a Gentoo. I also prefer learning as much as possible about the inner workings of an operating system. Gentoo is ideal for this.
"Forks" and a distro are sort of mutually exclusive since a fork is a split in a source tree. A distro is made up of thousands of source trees. Most distros have a property(s) (philosophy, performance, ease of use, media codecs, package set) that appeal to one segment or another.
That's why they are there. If you try to shove all the qualities of every distro into one it would be unmanageable and likely end up appealing to no one since it wouldn't do anything really well.
One person's dog of a distro, is a match made in heaven to someone else. That, my friends, is what it's all about.
-Viz
With choice comes the inevitable confusion. After it clears and you "get it", the choice is a blessing.
If I had to run Ubuntu, I'd end it now. As it is I prefer the flexibility and speed of a Gentoo. I also prefer learning as much as possible about the inner workings of an operating system. Gentoo is ideal for this.
"Forks" and a distro are sort of mutually exclusive since a fork is a split in a source tree. A distro is made up of thousands of source trees. Most distros have a property(s) (philosophy, performance, ease of use, media codecs, package set) that appeal to one segment or another.
That's why they are there. If you try to shove all the qualities of every distro into one it would be unmanageable and likely end up appealing to no one since it wouldn't do anything really well.
One person's dog of a distro, is a match made in heaven to someone else. That, my friends, is what it's all about.
-Viz
The writer advocates folding all of the Ubuntu offshoots into the main Ubuntu distribution. You can bring any one of those "environments" into Ubuntu through apt, but it would be better, in my view to have a more universal network-based installer that would install Ubuntu or Xubuntu, Kubuntu, or whatever else they come up with.
More like the Debian, Slackware or CentOS/Red Hat installers, less like what it is now.
In my last Ubuntu install (8.04), it didn't strike me as particularly intuitive, easy, informative or powerful. Not that the end result is unsatisfactory -- I still like Ubuntu 8.04 a whole lot. Last time I ran them, I didn't find Xubuntu or Kubuntu nearly as polished and a lot more buggy.
More like the Debian, Slackware or CentOS/Red Hat installers, less like what it is now.
In my last Ubuntu install (8.04), it didn't strike me as particularly intuitive, easy, informative or powerful. Not that the end result is unsatisfactory -- I still like Ubuntu 8.04 a whole lot. Last time I ran them, I didn't find Xubuntu or Kubuntu nearly as polished and a lot more buggy.
Quoting:> Libveris, you just gave me an idea for a website:
> UnderstandLinux.org
Sounds like a good idea, though there may already be some who are doing what that sound may be about. But then again, I am not against the idea of competing even in how best to present Linux to people.
I've had some ideas myself.. :)
It's a great idea. I too have an idea about this. I intend to write a long article about it in the future, but I'll post the summary here for you to pick apart. It's an analogy with cars.
A linux distro is a brand of car. E.g. Ubuntu == Volkswagon. A distro release (Ubuntu 8.04) is a specific model of a car. Whatever you end up picking, it's all similar-but-different. A Volvo (Slackware) is also a car. It has the same basic features (engine, auto or manual transmission, a steering wheel, four wheels -- kernel, KDE or GNOME desktop, Xserver, GNU bases system) but all the brands and models feel and act a tad different. Some distros base off other distro's like Porsche building on Volkswagen. Some brands come with support contracts (Red Hat / Xandros -- Hummer). Some are easily servicable yourself (Ubuntu, Debian -- Volkswagen, Ford).
This analogy scales pretty well IMHO. Both Linux and cars have 3rd party service engineers that offer support on brands they don't sell new. Some car shops only service their own cars, or cars of one brand. Cars can be leased instead of owned (SLED?). Etcetera, etcetera. Distro wars are just like car enthousiasts going at eachother discussing if a Toyota is better than a Chevvy :-)
Quoting:UnderstandLinux.orghttp://www.getgnulinux.org
Quoting: > UnderstandLinux.org
getgnulinux.org
No. The two can complement eachother quite nicely. Use getgnulinux to explain in very basic terms what Linux is and why you should use it. It's a sales pitch. Use understandlinux to explain what makes linux tick and how this whole FOSS thing works. It's a FAQ. A place where people go when they have answers too detailed for a sales pitch such as getgnulinux.
@gus3: Perhaps you should contact Olivier Cleynen, the guy behind getgnulinux and work on this in tandem. I think it could work quite well.
Quoting:Isn't that what [HYPERLINK@www.linux.org] is supposed to be?
If it is, it fails horribly.
And one essential perhaps-overlooked point
One would do well to keep in mind the concept of Lowest Common Denominator, a.k.a. LCD (not used here as the standard liquid crystal display monitor technology).
One of the many downfalls of MS's Windows Vista is its "high" requirements for hardware resources, besides any learning-curve to transition to it from Windows 2000/XP.
Windows Vista fails in this regard by failing to completely account for end-users' current hardware and the fact that many are unwilling to sacrifice the costs to upgrade and train on this..... the LCD becomes effectively trampled-upon here.
The author writes:
At the same time, this concept of the Lowest Common Denominator, LCD, probably has to be given more consideration than it already has. And even for the new Linux user. This is called "accommodating" existing hardware, as well as "accommodating" end-user knowledge & skills. This accommodation of the LCD is NOT called "dumbing down" as others sometimes wish to paint this as! LCD is simply a more thorough taking-into-account of various prevalent IT factors --- e.g., hardware, software, knowledge-base. As examples of this LCD - not everyone wishes to or even CAN visit websites with the infamous message "Internet Explorer Required to View This Page" - not everyone has Production desktop systems containing more than 512MB of RAM - not everyone has 802.11b/g or higher wireless access, nor internal LAN bandwidth of 1Gbps or greater - surprisingly (as related to Sabayon Linux and similar distros), not everyone has DVD-ROM drives enabled on their systems
Those of you reading this can no doubt find better or more prevalent examples of this LCD concept.
The author writes:
Quoting:Therefore, no one distribution needs to fill every need, but each needs to find a need to fill, and then fill it to the best of their ability allowing plenty of room for end user choice.One could argue that Ubuntu is the epitome of the Swiss Army Distro designed to fill most end-user needs, as so many continue to claim even on LXer. As well, Ubuntu and DVD distros such as the author's touted Sabayon Linux certainly strongly appeal to those who wish to replace the failing Vista on their current hardware.
At the same time, this concept of the Lowest Common Denominator, LCD, probably has to be given more consideration than it already has. And even for the new Linux user. This is called "accommodating" existing hardware, as well as "accommodating" end-user knowledge & skills. This accommodation of the LCD is NOT called "dumbing down" as others sometimes wish to paint this as! LCD is simply a more thorough taking-into-account of various prevalent IT factors --- e.g., hardware, software, knowledge-base. As examples of this LCD - not everyone wishes to or even CAN visit websites with the infamous message "Internet Explorer Required to View This Page" - not everyone has Production desktop systems containing more than 512MB of RAM - not everyone has 802.11b/g or higher wireless access, nor internal LAN bandwidth of 1Gbps or greater - surprisingly (as related to Sabayon Linux and similar distros), not everyone has DVD-ROM drives enabled on their systems
Those of you reading this can no doubt find better or more prevalent examples of this LCD concept.
vainrneenr, In defense of sabayon and other DVD based distros. One of the things I did for Sabayon, and nearly any other distro that uses LiveCD/DVD's is a way to install them to bare metal without a cd/dvd drive at all. This actually was in self defense as the DVD drive in my laptop died. So that point is a non factor.
For your referance : http://azerthoth.blogspot.com/2008/04/want-to-install-dvd-re...
However it does support your LCD of user knowldege, the GRUB hack though is fairly straightforward.
- not everyone wishes to or even CAN visit websites with the infamous message "Internet Explorer Required to View This Page"
I fail to see how or why this is an issue at all in regards to LCD.
- not everyone has Production desktop systems containing more than 512MB of RAM
While memory is a valid point, 256 meg is not that great a stretch and even Sabby will run on that (or less). So I wonder what the actual point of your including it is.
The one remaining point is valid enough if you call it internet access. But if just highspeed internal connections are some how valid for running linux I am clueless as to how that opinion was reached.
Ultimately your LCD comes down to knowledge, skill, and/or google-fu.
Sorry vainrveenr, I just cant agree with any of your associated Lowest Common Denominators. With knowledge the rest of the issues fall like so many bowling pins.
For your referance : http://azerthoth.blogspot.com/2008/04/want-to-install-dvd-re...
However it does support your LCD of user knowldege, the GRUB hack though is fairly straightforward.
- not everyone wishes to or even CAN visit websites with the infamous message "Internet Explorer Required to View This Page"
I fail to see how or why this is an issue at all in regards to LCD.
- not everyone has Production desktop systems containing more than 512MB of RAM
While memory is a valid point, 256 meg is not that great a stretch and even Sabby will run on that (or less). So I wonder what the actual point of your including it is.
The one remaining point is valid enough if you call it internet access. But if just highspeed internal connections are some how valid for running linux I am clueless as to how that opinion was reached.
Ultimately your LCD comes down to knowledge, skill, and/or google-fu.
Sorry vainrveenr, I just cant agree with any of your associated Lowest Common Denominators. With knowledge the rest of the issues fall like so many bowling pins.
Microsoft has always upped the hardware requirements for new products. It seems risky -- to sell a product that nobody can run unless they get new hardware, but it seems to work for MS.
Quoting:It seems risky -- to sell a product that nobody can run unless they get new hardware, but it seems to work for MS.Yet upon further investigation, things may not always be completely what they seem at first glance. A surprising example of this particular point is illustrated within the recent newspiece 'Dell 'Windows Vista Bonus' is a PC with Windows XP instead', critically commented upon in http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/27447/ :)
Another example of a LCD that someone quite emphatically mentioned over the last several hours is the use of pre-established vs. novel data formats. The Wikipedia describes the figurative contextual use of the LCD concept here at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowest_common_denominator
Quoting:The term [LCD] is used figuratively to refer to the "lowest"—least useful, least advanced, or similar—member of a class or set which is common to things that relate to members of that class. For instance, ASCII characters are the lowest common denominator for computers, in that this set is very limited, but practically every modern computer can interpret binary data into these characters.This example of the use of the basic ASCII character set as a LCD over higher-level-formatted MS-Word document formats is even perhaps more elemental than the ECMA standardization fiasco of OOXML over ODF. The lack of universal implementation and the eventual de facto lack of ACCEPTANCE of various older file formats has effectively killed their prevalent uses. If a person wishes to send non-standard MS-Word documents (e.g., through MS-Word 2007) to someone using an old version of SUN StarOffice on a PC, they're apparently MUCH more likely to use the LCD of translating a file into ASCII or RTF format for this first than to translate the MS-Word 2007 document into outdated WordPerfect or AmiPro formats. Naturally, the first choice of that person still using SUN StarOffice is clearly to upgrade his/her software to the latest version of OpenOffice to read and write MS-Word 2007 documents. Little question of this.
One could even successfully claim that de facto standardization on a very basic shared file-format IS a LCD of sorts. (Now who REALLY wants to re-start the railings against the vote of acceptance of OOXML's file-format standard over that of the ODF ??)
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Ya' know. I think it's about time we stopped treating new users as if they were completely stupid.