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Report: Good-Bye Ubuntu, Hello PCLinuxOS
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Comments (58)
I get it now...
9 earlier comments in the full thread.
@niscmr: I think the difference is that Carla is criticizing a single distro. You, if I remember correctly, were critical of Linux as a whole and seemed to be claiming that Windows is a superior choice. That is guaranteed to get people riled on a Linux site.
Caitlin,
in my mind, any version of Windows is NEVER a superior choice. On the other hand if that's what runs your everyday money-making business software.., We could maybe use open source software but on Windows. Open office immediatly comes to mind and yes GIMP if we can pry Photoshop out of peoples' minds. And I'm sure there are others we just haven't looked that closely yet..
I was saying that, when faced and confused with so many choices (over 300 according to distrowatch), one picks what one is used to. the saying "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't" comes to mind.
It was never my intention to insult LINUX (either as a whole or a single distro) but I've noticed with every distro that I've tried there is ALWAYS something about it that takes it out of contention. Either it doesn't come with this or that, or some software just won't work with it or the biggie, I can't get the RECOGNIZED wifi card to connect...
I could go on but that what got me into trouble last time.
Anyways, time to end this by saying I still use LINUX on my personal laptop, which BTW, is what I am writing this on, connected to the city's wireless network...
in my mind, any version of Windows is NEVER a superior choice. On the other hand if that's what runs your everyday money-making business software.., We could maybe use open source software but on Windows. Open office immediatly comes to mind and yes GIMP if we can pry Photoshop out of peoples' minds. And I'm sure there are others we just haven't looked that closely yet..
I was saying that, when faced and confused with so many choices (over 300 according to distrowatch), one picks what one is used to. the saying "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't" comes to mind.
It was never my intention to insult LINUX (either as a whole or a single distro) but I've noticed with every distro that I've tried there is ALWAYS something about it that takes it out of contention. Either it doesn't come with this or that, or some software just won't work with it or the biggie, I can't get the RECOGNIZED wifi card to connect...
I could go on but that what got me into trouble last time.
Anyways, time to end this by saying I still use LINUX on my personal laptop, which BTW, is what I am writing this on, connected to the city's wireless network...
> Althougth I don't remember if I mentioned it at that point my upgrade to the new Ubuntu studio from the old version...
AFAICT, no you didn't. Your comments were about the lack of GIS software and enterprise ready distributions.
> I just remember being very angry at how my concerns where dismissed as “nothing to see here” and telling people to “move along”. Yet here she is bitching about some of the very things I’m vexed about with LINUX.
I don't think that was aimed directly at you Your comments got caught in the crossfire between Carla, Caitlyn, myself, and a few other regulars and a couple of newcomers. Their complaints were easily refuted. Yours are far more substantial, though I think your comment about enterprise ready distribtuions underestimated both Red Hat Workstation and SLED. I think Carla merely conflated the discussions together and overreacted to your comments. If so, I expect she'd be willing to apologize.
AFAICT, no you didn't. Your comments were about the lack of GIS software and enterprise ready distributions.
> I just remember being very angry at how my concerns where dismissed as “nothing to see here” and telling people to “move along”. Yet here she is bitching about some of the very things I’m vexed about with LINUX.
I don't think that was aimed directly at you Your comments got caught in the crossfire between Carla, Caitlyn, myself, and a few other regulars and a couple of newcomers. Their complaints were easily refuted. Yours are far more substantial, though I think your comment about enterprise ready distribtuions underestimated both Red Hat Workstation and SLED. I think Carla merely conflated the discussions together and overreacted to your comments. If so, I expect she'd be willing to apologize.
@ jdixon
Okay, My bad, consider it mentioned. I'll also describe some of the problems that caused me to dump this POC. Ubuntu Studio new did a real number on this laptop. When I finally got it installed I had to reboot no less than 4 time to get the system up. Then I was imediatly warned that there were updates. So off I go and the progress bar stalls and I have to shut down the laptop it's so frozen. I try it several times with the same result. I then get the bright idea (doesn't take me long) that I can maybe use the CLI and I do. The update freezes at file 6. I remove that file from the list and then it freezes at file 8. By this time I'd had enough and knowing I'd have to download all the codecs and downgrade LAME so that MANDVD would work so on spec I installed Xubuntu and here I am writing this on a perfectly working PC.
There IS a lack of GIS software and that'll have to change. But baby steps first, let's get Autocad and Microstation for LINUX first.
As for Red Hat and SLED workstations we heard that the support models are not cheap and we're trying to get away from those.
As for tc, I'm waiting but not holding my breath...
Okay, My bad, consider it mentioned. I'll also describe some of the problems that caused me to dump this POC. Ubuntu Studio new did a real number on this laptop. When I finally got it installed I had to reboot no less than 4 time to get the system up. Then I was imediatly warned that there were updates. So off I go and the progress bar stalls and I have to shut down the laptop it's so frozen. I try it several times with the same result. I then get the bright idea (doesn't take me long) that I can maybe use the CLI and I do. The update freezes at file 6. I remove that file from the list and then it freezes at file 8. By this time I'd had enough and knowing I'd have to download all the codecs and downgrade LAME so that MANDVD would work so on spec I installed Xubuntu and here I am writing this on a perfectly working PC.
There IS a lack of GIS software and that'll have to change. But baby steps first, let's get Autocad and Microstation for LINUX first.
As for Red Hat and SLED workstations we heard that the support models are not cheap and we're trying to get away from those.
As for tc, I'm waiting but not holding my breath...
> There IS a lack of GIS software and that'll have to change.
There's a lack of commerical GIS software, yes. Have you looked at Grass (http://grass.osgeo.org/) and MapWindow (http://www.mapwindow.org/)? Not being a GIS person, I have no idea how suitable they are for any specific purpose.
> As for Red Hat and SLED workstations we heard that the support models are not cheap and we're trying to get away from those.
No, they're not. Neither are the Ubuntu support contracts. You might want to look at their free equivalents, CentOS and OpenSuSE for those cases where you don't need support. They should maintain binary level compatibility.
There's a lack of commerical GIS software, yes. Have you looked at Grass (http://grass.osgeo.org/) and MapWindow (http://www.mapwindow.org/)? Not being a GIS person, I have no idea how suitable they are for any specific purpose.
> As for Red Hat and SLED workstations we heard that the support models are not cheap and we're trying to get away from those.
No, they're not. Neither are the Ubuntu support contracts. You might want to look at their free equivalents, CentOS and OpenSuSE for those cases where you don't need support. They should maintain binary level compatibility.
Quoting:No, they're not. Neither are the Ubuntu support contracts. You might want to look at their free equivalents, CentOS and OpenSuSE for those cases where you don't need support. They should maintain binary level compatibility.I can't resist pointing out here that the completely free ubuntu LTS release has 100% code compatibility with the enterprise supported version of ubuntu LTS since it's exactly the same. Not a 3rd party clone like centos, not an unsupported development version of the enterprise product as in the case of fedora or opensuse, but the exact same thing,
I've heard about Ubuntu Studio being less than ready for prime time. I believe the reviewer from Linux Journal has another 64-bit "studio"-grade distro that works better.
@nicsmr -- There may be 300+ Linux distributions (and a half-dozen major BSD projects, which I encourage you to check out), but there are probably fewer than a dozen "serious" distributions that aren't derivatives of derivatives, have large communities of developers and/or users, and have sizable repositories and frequent security updates.
There are scores of "hobbyist" distros out there, and some of them are probably good enough for production, especially if they're based on one of the biggies.
Also, I feel your pain about a certain class of software, be it CAD, professional video production (my personal bone of contention) or any other area, not being as well-represented in the FOSS ecosystem as they are in the proprietary world.
While the GIMP is a great piece of software, it not only doesn't properly handle an integral part of the JPEG images I work on (the IPTC data), it cheerfully deletes that data once the file is saved. And since IPTC is considered an evil Photoshop invention, the developers of the GIMP feel free to ignore it. Just tell my six photographers, all of whom use Photoshop ...
I wonder if any of these Windows-based CAD apps will run under WINE. Checking with the people at Codeweavers is probably a good place to start. It's a great company (they even have a version for FreeBSD, God love 'em) that offers an easier-to-use version of WINE that is definitely worth the money if you depend on a Windows app or apps that will run in that fashion.
And there's always the VM route. Run a FOSS OS with Windows in a VM. That way you can do as much of your work as possible in the FOSS system while keeping Windows contained to its own little area.
And I also wonder if any of the big CAD software companies ever had a Unix port. Maybe they'd do so again. While I believe in free software, there's nothing stopping anybody from coding a closed-source app that runs in a FOSS environment but isn't FOSS itself. As long as you don't use any GPL code to build it, you're probably OK. And if you use BSD code, you can use as much as you want and keep the whole shebang closed if you wish.
But many companies in the FOSS space realize that it's support, not software, that brings home the bacon, so having a free, open-source product is a great way to get your app out there; and the folks who really depend on it will probably benefit more from paying for support than they would trying to do all of it in-house.
I say this, again, from my Windows XP box provided to me by my ever-lovin' employer. Not that Ubuntu didn't threaten to crap out on me as I was banging on my laptop at midnight to get our Lakers parade coverage together, but I digress.
What I mean to say to all of us in this community is that there's nothing wrong with criticizing a single distribution, the direction of the Linux in general, or even any single article or reviewer. Constructive criticism is obviously better.
As far as those who criticize what I write, I can take it. I write what I write. Chips fall. Linux ain't perfect. Nothing is. (OK, maybe Slackware, but one geek's perfect is another's pain).
I'm trying to actually USE this stuff, so when I get frustrated, I really get frustrated. ... Then I cool off.
The point is that all of this software is getting better all the time ... and I'm very thankful for that. Regressions in Xorg for Intel cards? That's another story, and I'm pissed off about it ...
@nicsmr -- There may be 300+ Linux distributions (and a half-dozen major BSD projects, which I encourage you to check out), but there are probably fewer than a dozen "serious" distributions that aren't derivatives of derivatives, have large communities of developers and/or users, and have sizable repositories and frequent security updates.
There are scores of "hobbyist" distros out there, and some of them are probably good enough for production, especially if they're based on one of the biggies.
Also, I feel your pain about a certain class of software, be it CAD, professional video production (my personal bone of contention) or any other area, not being as well-represented in the FOSS ecosystem as they are in the proprietary world.
While the GIMP is a great piece of software, it not only doesn't properly handle an integral part of the JPEG images I work on (the IPTC data), it cheerfully deletes that data once the file is saved. And since IPTC is considered an evil Photoshop invention, the developers of the GIMP feel free to ignore it. Just tell my six photographers, all of whom use Photoshop ...
I wonder if any of these Windows-based CAD apps will run under WINE. Checking with the people at Codeweavers is probably a good place to start. It's a great company (they even have a version for FreeBSD, God love 'em) that offers an easier-to-use version of WINE that is definitely worth the money if you depend on a Windows app or apps that will run in that fashion.
And there's always the VM route. Run a FOSS OS with Windows in a VM. That way you can do as much of your work as possible in the FOSS system while keeping Windows contained to its own little area.
And I also wonder if any of the big CAD software companies ever had a Unix port. Maybe they'd do so again. While I believe in free software, there's nothing stopping anybody from coding a closed-source app that runs in a FOSS environment but isn't FOSS itself. As long as you don't use any GPL code to build it, you're probably OK. And if you use BSD code, you can use as much as you want and keep the whole shebang closed if you wish.
But many companies in the FOSS space realize that it's support, not software, that brings home the bacon, so having a free, open-source product is a great way to get your app out there; and the folks who really depend on it will probably benefit more from paying for support than they would trying to do all of it in-house.
I say this, again, from my Windows XP box provided to me by my ever-lovin' employer. Not that Ubuntu didn't threaten to crap out on me as I was banging on my laptop at midnight to get our Lakers parade coverage together, but I digress.
What I mean to say to all of us in this community is that there's nothing wrong with criticizing a single distribution, the direction of the Linux in general, or even any single article or reviewer. Constructive criticism is obviously better.
As far as those who criticize what I write, I can take it. I write what I write. Chips fall. Linux ain't perfect. Nothing is. (OK, maybe Slackware, but one geek's perfect is another's pain).
I'm trying to actually USE this stuff, so when I get frustrated, I really get frustrated. ... Then I cool off.
The point is that all of this software is getting better all the time ... and I'm very thankful for that. Regressions in Xorg for Intel cards? That's another story, and I'm pissed off about it ...
Here comes the B.S. again.... and you wonder why you're referred to as an MS shill or an astroturfer. Your post to me illustrates why perfectly.
That isn't true in the server room and it increasingly not true on the desktop either. When I was consulting for Red Hat we had any number of very large corporate clients using Linux on the desktop. If there weren't significant businesses doing the same in my area I'd be out of business tomorrow.
Why not just run it on an open source OS like Linux? It provides superior security, superior performance, and reduced cost. In the current economy more and more businesses are asking that very question and not coming up with any negative answers.
Pure, unadulterated FUD. Most businesses don't know from DistroWatch and wouldn't judge anything by the site. They know of the handful of Linux distributions marketed to businesses: Red Hat, SUSE, and Ubuntu mainly in the U.S. In the corporate world most of the rest simply do not matter.
Then get some help, available free of charge with every distro on the planet or for a fee from the distros who sell services to businesses. My little consulting firm would be happy to have you as a client. Of course, if you want to eliminate Linux from contention you will always find a reason.
"Either it doesn't come with this or that" is nonsense because any Linux software can work with any distro. It may not be packaged for a given distro but either a package from another distro can be converted (if needed) and used or the software can be compiled and the package can be built. Again, if you need help it's there Building custom packages for businesses is something Linux consultants do all the time.
'"some software just won't work with it" is also B.S. and again I'd have to assume you didn't know what you were doing or didn't ask for help. If you stick with the major distros running a modern kernel (which every business running Linux I know of does) you haev no such issue.
"I can't get the RECOGNIZED wifi card to connect.." That "biggie" is mainly a home user issue. Again, if the chipset is supported it can be made to work, usually pretty easily. Sounds like incompetence or a failure to ask for help to me. Many of the chips that aren't supported work well enough with ndiswrapper as well.
False statement. The U.S. EPA GIS servers were running Red Hat Linux back when I supported the Agency in 2000-2001. I can't imagine things have gotten worse since then.
The claim that Ubuntu, Red Hat, and Novell support is expensive is true until you compare it to Microsoft support. By comparison the Linux support is dirt cheap.
Quoting:On the other hand if that's what runs your everyday money-making business software..,
That isn't true in the server room and it increasingly not true on the desktop either. When I was consulting for Red Hat we had any number of very large corporate clients using Linux on the desktop. If there weren't significant businesses doing the same in my area I'd be out of business tomorrow.
Quoting:We could maybe use open source software but on Windows.
Why not just run it on an open source OS like Linux? It provides superior security, superior performance, and reduced cost. In the current economy more and more businesses are asking that very question and not coming up with any negative answers.
Quoting:I was saying that, when faced and confused with so many choices (over 300 according to distrowatch), one picks what one is used to. the saying "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't" comes to mind.
Pure, unadulterated FUD. Most businesses don't know from DistroWatch and wouldn't judge anything by the site. They know of the handful of Linux distributions marketed to businesses: Red Hat, SUSE, and Ubuntu mainly in the U.S. In the corporate world most of the rest simply do not matter.
Quoting:It was never my intention to insult LINUX (either as a whole or a single distro) but I've noticed with every distro that I've tried there is ALWAYS something about it that takes it out of contention. Either it doesn't come with this or that, or some software just won't work with it or the biggie, I can't get the RECOGNIZED wifi card to connect...
Then get some help, available free of charge with every distro on the planet or for a fee from the distros who sell services to businesses. My little consulting firm would be happy to have you as a client. Of course, if you want to eliminate Linux from contention you will always find a reason.
"Either it doesn't come with this or that" is nonsense because any Linux software can work with any distro. It may not be packaged for a given distro but either a package from another distro can be converted (if needed) and used or the software can be compiled and the package can be built. Again, if you need help it's there Building custom packages for businesses is something Linux consultants do all the time.
'"some software just won't work with it" is also B.S. and again I'd have to assume you didn't know what you were doing or didn't ask for help. If you stick with the major distros running a modern kernel (which every business running Linux I know of does) you haev no such issue.
"I can't get the RECOGNIZED wifi card to connect.." That "biggie" is mainly a home user issue. Again, if the chipset is supported it can be made to work, usually pretty easily. Sounds like incompetence or a failure to ask for help to me. Many of the chips that aren't supported work well enough with ndiswrapper as well.
Quoting:There IS a lack of GIS software and that'll have to change.
False statement. The U.S. EPA GIS servers were running Red Hat Linux back when I supported the Agency in 2000-2001. I can't imagine things have gotten worse since then.
The claim that Ubuntu, Red Hat, and Novell support is expensive is true until you compare it to Microsoft support. By comparison the Linux support is dirt cheap.
@Steven_Rosenber Thanks for the hint about the 64 bit Studio version unfortunatly I have to use 32 bit because I use the Citrix ICA client to connect to my work workstation and that only works on 32 bit.
As for Crossover, neither of the cad packages are supported and I've got a letter from them saying that as well as other sources.
Gimp/Photoshop well what can we say that hasn't been said?
the VM route would be one way of dealing with the lack of Linux mainstream CAD packages.
Now video editing that's my personal (non work related) pet peeve. Do you know of any video editor that works like audacity? for example... to cut a part of a video just click-hold on the beginning of the part you want to cut and drag to the part you want to keep to highlight and press delete and it's gone. More specifically cutting out a commercial from a video permanently. I can't for the life of me cut a piece of video out and get rid of it. if you can point me in the right direction for that I'd really appreciate it.
Like you I'm trying to make a go of using linux for everything. I'm finding it hard.
As for Crossover, neither of the cad packages are supported and I've got a letter from them saying that as well as other sources.
Gimp/Photoshop well what can we say that hasn't been said?
the VM route would be one way of dealing with the lack of Linux mainstream CAD packages.
Now video editing that's my personal (non work related) pet peeve. Do you know of any video editor that works like audacity? for example... to cut a part of a video just click-hold on the beginning of the part you want to cut and drag to the part you want to keep to highlight and press delete and it's gone. More specifically cutting out a commercial from a video permanently. I can't for the life of me cut a piece of video out and get rid of it. if you can point me in the right direction for that I'd really appreciate it.
Like you I'm trying to make a go of using linux for everything. I'm finding it hard.
@Steven: The big Hollywood animation studios use Linux to make their films. There is no shortage of professional grade video production software for Linux. It is, however, proprietary and expensive.
@ caitlin
I've just about had it with being called a shill, astroturfer, incompetent.
I've been a programmer and a systems analyst for over 20 years. I can figure things out. I'm proficient with any number of programming languages, databases, gui designers etc... and I'm good at it..
Also lets compare incomes...who makes more me or a major Hollywood studio? let me think.. not me. I can't afford to spent thousands on video sw and more thousands on the clustered computers and redering farms that they use. So blow that thought out your ear.
I'm outta here for good now. I considered for a moment that i might like to stay with this group but forget that. Caitlyn, TC I had come to respect you opinions and view. All that's gone.
Unregister me.
I've just about had it with being called a shill, astroturfer, incompetent.
I've been a programmer and a systems analyst for over 20 years. I can figure things out. I'm proficient with any number of programming languages, databases, gui designers etc... and I'm good at it..
Also lets compare incomes...who makes more me or a major Hollywood studio? let me think.. not me. I can't afford to spent thousands on video sw and more thousands on the clustered computers and redering farms that they use. So blow that thought out your ear.
I'm outta here for good now. I considered for a moment that i might like to stay with this group but forget that. Caitlyn, TC I had come to respect you opinions and view. All that's gone.
Unregister me.
nics,
A few simple questions*, why when you are so willing to pay the Windows tariff as part of a money making firm why the stress on free (as in no cost)? Why the demand that some entity must produce something that meets your standards when not one of your words indicate you have supported such efforts with cold, hard cash? If you are willing to pay for the superior application running under Windows, why not the same terms under a freedom OS? Are you just a cheap skate demanding a free ride?
Has anyone every told you there is no free lunch? If not let me be the first.
;Your Buddy Txt.
* I think I am joking.
A few simple questions*, why when you are so willing to pay the Windows tariff as part of a money making firm why the stress on free (as in no cost)? Why the demand that some entity must produce something that meets your standards when not one of your words indicate you have supported such efforts with cold, hard cash? If you are willing to pay for the superior application running under Windows, why not the same terms under a freedom OS? Are you just a cheap skate demanding a free ride?
Has anyone every told you there is no free lunch? If not let me be the first.
;Your Buddy Txt.
* I think I am joking.
@caitlyn: I'm very interested in professional video solutions for Linux. Who? Where?
@nicsmr: Use what makes you comfortable, what works for you. We're all on our own path ...
@nicsmr: Use what makes you comfortable, what works for you. We're all on our own path ...
Quoting:I've just about had it with being called a shill, astroturfer, incompetent.
If you don't want to be called a shill or an astroturfer don't act like one. You didn't come here asking what businesses that run Linux use for business software. You came in and made this blanket statement about Windows:
Quoting:On the other hand if that's what runs your everyday money-making business software..
Windows runs money making business software and, by implication, Linux doesn't. It's a false statement yet you get all bent out of shape when we call you on it or point out counter examples.
You came in and said:
Quoting:There IS a lack of GIS software and that'll have to change.
False statement. I pointed out that I supported an agency of the U.S. Federal Government that did their GIS work on Linux.
You didn't come in asking what CAD software was available for Linux. You didn't come in asking how to replace features found in your favorite Windows CAD software. You instead said:
Quoting:let's get Autocad and Microstation for LINUX first.
You are demanding brand name Windows software for Linux. Sorry, that is NEVER going to happen. It's an argument used to claim that Linux just isn't good enough by shills and astroturfers. It didn't matter that in this thread and other people pointed out that AutoCAD isn't the standard it once was. It didn't matter that people posted which versions worked under WINE. It didn't matter that people pointed out alternative Linux software like qcad which would be adequate for most but certainly not all CAD users. You just asked for the Windows brand. It's essentially the same as people who say Linux will never be ready because it doesn't run Microsoft Office and ignore the myriad of office apps that do run under Linux, ignore Crossover Office, and ignore WINE. It's FUD, pure and simple.
The "I'm not incompetent. I've done X, Y, and Z for 20 years" lines are classic, stereotypical astroturfing. Also, just because you may be incompetent at Linux doesn't make you an incompetent person or a stupid person and doesn't make what I wrote a personal attack. Let me give you an example.
There are lots of sweet potatoes grown in my part of North Carolina. It's a sweet potato producing area. I grow a large organic garden in my back yard. I produce beautiful tomatoes, all sorts of peppers, squash, zucchini, cucumbers, eggplants. I have failed time and again to grow sweet potatoes. I am clearly incompetent at growing sweet potatoes. That's a fact I cannot deny.
Now, I can talk to folks who succeed at growing beautiful, tasty sweet potatoes around here and get help. Maybe then I can have a successful crop. I can give up and move on and admit I am really good at growing cucumbers, better than most folks around here, but truly incompetent at growing sweet potatoes.
What I can't in all honesty do is claim you can't grow sweet potatoes around here. It doesn't matter that I've been growing vegetables since I was a child and my parents got me started maybe 40 years ago. I can't claim that sweet potatoes are a lousy crop. I can't say that if I just moved to Georgia I'd grow wonderful sweet potatoes since my skills (or lack thereof) would not have changed.
You are getting all bent out of shape because neither Carla (tuxchick) nor I wil accept that Linux is lousy. You are blaming the messenger. You are also blaming Linux which would be exactly like me blaming sweet potatoes.
Quoting:I'm proficient with any number of programming languages, databases, gui designers etc... and I'm good at it..
You know what? I believe you. I really, really do. If I wanted to hire a GUI designer for Windows I might even ask to see your resume/C.V. If I wanted to hire a Linux business consultant you wouldn't be my first choice. Actually, you seem to lack basic skills I'd look for in a developer too since you blame everyone but yourself and never ask for help to solve the problems.
Quoting:Also lets compare incomes...who makes more me or a major Hollywood studio? let me think.. not me. I can't afford to spent thousands on video sw and more thousands on the clustered computers and redering farms that they use. So blow that thought out your ear.
I was responding to Steven, not to you. He said there is no professional video editing software. I pointed out that the most professional and expert video people in the world use Linux. What in the world does that have to do with you as a home or small business user? So, no, I'm sorry, that was a valid response to Steven.
Quoting:Like you I'm trying to make a go of using linux for everything. I'm finding it hard.
Just like I'm finding it hard to grow sweet potatoes.
Oh, and to be perfectly honest, I don't believe you on this one.
You keep talking about business and then say it doesn't work on your little personal laptop. Apples and oranges, no? Stop conflating different issues and maybe you'd have more credibility.
Quoting:I'm outta here for good now. I considered for a moment that i might like to stay with this group but forget that. Caitlyn, TC I had come to respect you opinions and view. All that's gone.
Funny, you've shown nothing but disrespect for Linux and those of us like Carla (TC) and myself who make a very fine living from it helping people do all the things you say can't be done. I'm sure you'll now go to Windows fora and tell the world how unwelcoming, unfriendly, and generally mean us horrible Linux folks are. The fact is that we welcome and help Linux users all the time. We can't help those who come in saying how lacking Linux is and dismiss any help offered.
@TxtEdMacs
A few simple questions*, why when you are so willing to pay the Windows tariff as part of a money making firm why the stress on free (as in no cost)?
A few simple answers... (and I'm not kidding...) We no longer want to pay the Windows tariff/tax. Our CIO has mandated that we not renew our M$ licences when they expire in Sept 2010. Not only is it going to be tought to do it by that date but But it's going to be tougher because of the "missing software." The term I used was generic for profitable orgs and companies. We as a civic government are NOT profitmaking.
Why the demand that some entity must produce something that meets your standards when not one of your words indicate you have supported such efforts with cold, hard cash?
Fair enough... until very recently we had no idea our CIO was going to spring this on us. And since as a corporation we don't officially use open source, free software we haven't payed. But in very prelim. discussions among a group of us we talked about to do that a persitant thought was contributing a percentage of what we would have paid for licensing a particular piece of software to the developers of the open source replacement. Here we have to be carefl as a civic goverment we have to account for every penny we spend to the tax payer. Not only that but we would contribute back to the community anything we developed as GPL. And if we did need some customization in a particular application then we would pay for those like we pay any contractor to do the job. I hope I explained that well enough. If not I'll try better.
Personally I have contributed not a large amounts but what I could afford, anonimously to Mepis (my first love) primarily and some others.
If you are willing to pay for the superior application running under Windows, why not the same terms under a freedom OS?
In not sure I understand this one but here goes...I never said those words, If a major player suddenly decides to make the software for Linux but is closed source we will buy it. Just like we buy it now for windows.
Are you just a cheap skate demanding a free ride?
Personally, yes. I use free software as much as I can for as long as I can. But I willingly pay when I have used something that has bettered my expectations ie. Audacity
Has anyone every told you there is no free lunch? If not let me be the first.
Too late by at least 3 decades...
TANSTAAFL* - "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" Robert Heilein, on of the greatest Sci-Fi writers of all time.
*There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
A few simple questions*, why when you are so willing to pay the Windows tariff as part of a money making firm why the stress on free (as in no cost)?
A few simple answers... (and I'm not kidding...) We no longer want to pay the Windows tariff/tax. Our CIO has mandated that we not renew our M$ licences when they expire in Sept 2010. Not only is it going to be tought to do it by that date but But it's going to be tougher because of the "missing software." The term I used was generic for profitable orgs and companies. We as a civic government are NOT profitmaking.
Why the demand that some entity must produce something that meets your standards when not one of your words indicate you have supported such efforts with cold, hard cash?
Fair enough... until very recently we had no idea our CIO was going to spring this on us. And since as a corporation we don't officially use open source, free software we haven't payed. But in very prelim. discussions among a group of us we talked about to do that a persitant thought was contributing a percentage of what we would have paid for licensing a particular piece of software to the developers of the open source replacement. Here we have to be carefl as a civic goverment we have to account for every penny we spend to the tax payer. Not only that but we would contribute back to the community anything we developed as GPL. And if we did need some customization in a particular application then we would pay for those like we pay any contractor to do the job. I hope I explained that well enough. If not I'll try better.
Personally I have contributed not a large amounts but what I could afford, anonimously to Mepis (my first love) primarily and some others.
If you are willing to pay for the superior application running under Windows, why not the same terms under a freedom OS?
In not sure I understand this one but here goes...I never said those words, If a major player suddenly decides to make the software for Linux but is closed source we will buy it. Just like we buy it now for windows.
Are you just a cheap skate demanding a free ride?
Personally, yes. I use free software as much as I can for as long as I can. But I willingly pay when I have used something that has bettered my expectations ie. Audacity
Has anyone every told you there is no free lunch? If not let me be the first.
Too late by at least 3 decades...
TANSTAAFL* - "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" Robert Heilein, on of the greatest Sci-Fi writers of all time.
*There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Quoting:@caitlyn: I'm very interested in professional video solutions for Linux. Who? Where?
I've sent you a private note. I can very easily talk about applications. Who and where would violate my NDA with Red Hat or with another place I worked for.
@ caitlyn...ESAN
@ Steven_Rosenber... that's the problem Steve I haven't found anything that makes me comfortable. I'm sure there must be something like what described but don't know where to look
Thanks to all that helped but I must go now...
@ Steven_Rosenber... that's the problem Steve I haven't found anything that makes me comfortable. I'm sure there must be something like what described but don't know where to look
Thanks to all that helped but I must go now...
Quoting:Not only is it going to be tought to do it by that date but But it's going to be tougher because of the "missing software." The term I used was generic for profitable orgs and companies. We as a civic government are NOT profitmaking.
Then instead of talking about missing software how about saying what, specifically, it is you are trying to accomplish. Maybe the software isn't missing after all. Maybe you just don't know about it.
Now, if you say it has to be Photoshop and GIMP isn't up to the task then maybe it really is missing for you and not for millions of other people, some of the quite professional in their applications, who use GIMP. Tracyanne has already covered that adequately in another thread.
> Our CIO has mandated that we not renew our M$ licences when they expire in Sept 2010. Not only is it going to be tought to do it by that date but But it's going to be tougher because of the "missing software."
See what of that software will run under Wine, what will run under Crossover, and (next to last, as it still requires licenses, just nowhere near as many) what will run under Citrix. The rest should be candidates for a VM or dedicated Windows machines. You should be able to cut your Windows license fees by 75% or more. You may not be able to get rid of everything, but you can make major progress.
See what of that software will run under Wine, what will run under Crossover, and (next to last, as it still requires licenses, just nowhere near as many) what will run under Citrix. The rest should be candidates for a VM or dedicated Windows machines. You should be able to cut your Windows license fees by 75% or more. You may not be able to get rid of everything, but you can make major progress.
Also some very decent Slackware-based distros
9 earlier comments in the full thread.
@flufferbeer: Since I am that horrible commentator (or one of them) in the other thread why don't you link the thread and point out the next part where I explained why I responded to nicsmr the way I did. I don't think I owe anyone an apology and I certainly don't think tuxchick or I were unfair to nicsmr.
@helios,
Sorry, I omitted referencing your quote above on forums becoming mean, nasty places.
Excellent points, IMHO.
fb
@flufferbeer: I went back and checked. Nobody in the thread call nicsmr a "liar" outright or at all. What he did was to dismiss Linux for businesses. That's always going to get a reaction. He claimed there was no GIS software for Linux, for example, when I supported GIS servers at the U.S. EPA that ran Linux. He got called on clearly false statements. I'm sorry if that bothers you. Actually, no, I'm not.
Wasn't it you who accused me of trying to turn LXer into my own personal blog because, during some days when I was watching software compile I suggested a bunch of stories which Scott and Sander and the other editors accepted? They were, as I remember, happy with what I did. You, OTOH, launched into a personal attack on me.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Yours truly, Ms. "mean and nasty"
Wasn't it you who accused me of trying to turn LXer into my own personal blog because, during some days when I was watching software compile I suggested a bunch of stories which Scott and Sander and the other editors accepted? They were, as I remember, happy with what I did. You, OTOH, launched into a personal attack on me.
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Yours truly, Ms. "mean and nasty"
> Use "aptitude -R install " instead of "aptitude install "
At the time I tried Debian on dialup, I don't believe aptitude was an option, just apt-get.
At the time I tried Debian on dialup, I don't believe aptitude was an option, just apt-get.
>>>>>>>
@vainrveenr: Another relatively lightweight Slackware distro that may be worth looking at for some folks, particularly those looking for a live CD, is Austrumi.
@ helios
>>>>>This is a great distro but like so many that get successful quickly, the forums can become a mean, nasty place...especially if you offer criticism.
--I have been theatened with the stick by one mod for that ..by PM.
>>>>>> One of my HeliOS Project Kids went in there about a year ago and left in tears due to the rough treatment...what kind of a jerk makes an 11 year old girl cry by calling her "stupid".
--One year ago there were 3 Jerks that I know of who had the habit .....
>>>>>>Minor stink ensued offline with the bigmouth and the post magically disappeared.
--Standard behavior that time. It has changed for the better
>>>>> Sal was one of the best with pclinuxos but the guy(s) that took his place or helped him were if anything, power-trip-mean.
--He still is.
For what it's worth.
--I have been theatened with the stick by one mod for that ..by PM.
>>>>>> One of my HeliOS Project Kids went in there about a year ago and left in tears due to the rough treatment...what kind of a jerk makes an 11 year old girl cry by calling her "stupid".
--One year ago there were 3 Jerks that I know of who had the habit .....
>>>>>>Minor stink ensued offline with the bigmouth and the post magically disappeared.
--Standard behavior that time. It has changed for the better
>>>>> Sal was one of the best with pclinuxos but the guy(s) that took his place or helped him were if anything, power-trip-mean.
--He still is.
For what it's worth.
Sorry, they had their chance with me, and others here. When I had a forum post removed and blasted by a moderator in PM ... I want nothing to do with a community that would tolerate that for any length of time. From what I have garnered that prevailed for a rather long length of time.
I can not nor will not recommend it to anyone. There was a recent incident here on LXer which re enforced my perception of high handed unilateral actions still exist within the PCLOS community, and that was only a week or two ago.
I can not nor will not recommend it to anyone. There was a recent incident here on LXer which re enforced my perception of high handed unilateral actions still exist within the PCLOS community, and that was only a week or two ago.
I find a switch like this a bit hard to understand. I could understand Ubuntu to Debian for political reasons but Ubuntu to PCLOS sounds like boredom.
In general the reasons offered don't stack up. I've tried many distros and the speed issue is a furphy. Sometimes a distro will be a little slower in one area and a bit faster somewhere else. Not a big deal. As for Ubuntu being buggy, well there is some truth to that but honestly it doesn't take much effort to sort these things through particularly for someone with the experience of the author.
A good reason *not* to switch distros is familiarity. Why waste your time learning all the boring spin up crud for a new distro unless your old one really blows. Debian OK but PCLOS yechhh
Come on Carla admit it, you're bored with Ubuntu.....
In general the reasons offered don't stack up. I've tried many distros and the speed issue is a furphy. Sometimes a distro will be a little slower in one area and a bit faster somewhere else. Not a big deal. As for Ubuntu being buggy, well there is some truth to that but honestly it doesn't take much effort to sort these things through particularly for someone with the experience of the author.
A good reason *not* to switch distros is familiarity. Why waste your time learning all the boring spin up crud for a new distro unless your old one really blows. Debian OK but PCLOS yechhh
Come on Carla admit it, you're bored with Ubuntu.....
Quoting:If the recency factor was of utmost importance, then the very new Fedora 11 should have also been considered with GNOME along with FC11's multimedia bells & whistlesAvoiding the hot-button mini-subject above, namely, that of threads becoming personally-directed and "mean and nasty", there is another upcoming distro-release that should be at least mentioned in passing here. Lucky Slackware version 13.0. From Pat V's recent news on 64-bit Slackware at http://www.slackware.com/ :
Quoting:Ready or not, Slackware has now gone 64-bit with an official x86_64 port being maintained in-sync with the regular x86 -current branch. DVDs will be available for purchase from the Slackware store when Slackware 13.0 is released.This notice of purchasable 64-bit Slackware DVDs tied to 13.0's release gives the impression that one can anticipate the latter's release sometime soon (perhaps during this Summer?) Although Slackware 13.0 will admittedly be a "point-oh" release with its invariable bugs to be worked out, at the same time, this new release will definitely have an enormous "recency factor" as it were. There is even conjecture that the Slackware team might offer the option of compiling kernel 2.6.30 into this upcoming Slackware release, e.g., see http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/slackwa... Unfortunately, a key difficulty for Schroder and others besides Slackware 13.0 being a "point-oh" release, is that Slackware 13.0 will definitely include as its KDE default, KDE4. As Schroder writes:
Quoting:I finally settled on PCLinuxOS 2009.1 because they just had a new release and they're using KDE 3.5.10. I haven't warmed up to KDE4 yet; it is still missing some key features that I rely on.Yes, Slack 13.0 may indeed be super-fast, offer many benefits on both old and new hardware, and even offer the backwards-compatible option of using KDE3. But the key phrase "it [KDE4] is still missing some key features that I rely on" indicates that Slackware present and future may best be avoided for this particular reason, unless "someone with the experience of the author" would definitely be willing to spend "the effort to sort these things through".
The version number for Slackware was just bumped to 13.0 in the -current tree, so probably within a couple months there'll be an official release of Slackware for 64-bit machines.
montezuma: In my experience the speed difference between distros can be VERY significant and very real. I wrote about it (without benchmarks) at: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/03/linux-performance-diffe... As I use some relatively low spec (read: netbook) and older hardware this is a huge issue for me.
I don't think it's fair to question Carla's motives. I said goodbye to Ubuntu a few releases ago. I keep trying it and keep saying "no thanks". I find it buggy, slow, and generally offers me nothing that other distros don't.
I don't think it's fair to question Carla's motives. I said goodbye to Ubuntu a few releases ago. I keep trying it and keep saying "no thanks". I find it buggy, slow, and generally offers me nothing that other distros don't.
Caitlyn,
I agree that for specialized application to hardware with limited capability (netbooks, slow cpus, low memory) your point about a well tuned kernel makes sense. On run of the mill hardware as I said I haven't seen it subjectively at least. I also agree with your point about Ubuntu leaving a lot of services running that aren't needed. However it took me all of 10 minutes to fix that and I would guess tc would as well.
It would be much more helpful in such subjective discussions to do some hard tests of common desktop tests i.e. some benchmarks. Phoronox does some but I don't think they quite equate with what we are talking about.
As to me being too tough on tc, my post was meant to be light hearted not critical at all. After all I have done plenty of distro hopping. There's a bit too much aggro on Lxer at present for my taste, I wouldn't want to add to it LOL.
I agree that for specialized application to hardware with limited capability (netbooks, slow cpus, low memory) your point about a well tuned kernel makes sense. On run of the mill hardware as I said I haven't seen it subjectively at least. I also agree with your point about Ubuntu leaving a lot of services running that aren't needed. However it took me all of 10 minutes to fix that and I would guess tc would as well.
It would be much more helpful in such subjective discussions to do some hard tests of common desktop tests i.e. some benchmarks. Phoronox does some but I don't think they quite equate with what we are talking about.
As to me being too tough on tc, my post was meant to be light hearted not critical at all. After all I have done plenty of distro hopping. There's a bit too much aggro on Lxer at present for my taste, I wouldn't want to add to it LOL.
If I read her article correctly, the thing that brought her to PCLOS was all the extra stuff going on under the hood that could not be turned off in K-Ubuntu and that PCLOS had stuck with using the KDE 3.5.10 line, instead of the new 4x.
I have used PCLOS for almost two years now, on a laptop, and several desktops that are still running (two having been given away and I now provide 'support' on) and my main desktop. I guess I am lucky in that I never bothered to go to their forums to get beat up, I am always on LQ if I go to a forum site to research a problem or get help. Linuxquestions.org is the only place to go if you really want help. I may be biased because I met him, but Jeremy runs a great site, I haven't gone to any other forum site for help with Linux stuff since I started out back in 2005..
There are a few of you who should remember that little thread..
I have used PCLOS for almost two years now, on a laptop, and several desktops that are still running (two having been given away and I now provide 'support' on) and my main desktop. I guess I am lucky in that I never bothered to go to their forums to get beat up, I am always on LQ if I go to a forum site to research a problem or get help. Linuxquestions.org is the only place to go if you really want help. I may be biased because I met him, but Jeremy runs a great site, I haven't gone to any other forum site for help with Linux stuff since I started out back in 2005..
There are a few of you who should remember that little thread..
@montezuma: You make some very valid points. With more powerful, up to date machines the casual user probably won't notice much difference between distros. Even if more CPU cycles and memory is used by Distro X when compared to Distro Y, if the difference is the machine running at 30% capacity vs. 40% capacity it is still likely that the system will deliver the best performance it possibly can for the apps that are running. On any system, old or new, big or small, the difference becomes obvious when you push the limits of the system. If you are using resources for cruft those resources aren't available for useful work. If you have plenty of resources to spare you may not care. If you don't you care. It isn't about how powerful a given system is. It is all about whether you push its limits or not.
I did some work for Red Hat a few years back. We had a big, well known customer who was doing things that are probably as resource intensive as you can get. They were very upset that Red Hat did not officially support xfs in RHEL. Why, you ask? For their application, on the highest of the high end equipment available, with very large files, with very high CPU demand, with memory always at or near 100% utilization, filesystem performance was the biggest bottleneck. They tried ext3, reiserfs, jfs, and xfs. For what they did the performance improvement with xfs was huge. The app in question did not run properly in a clustered environment so GFS was out of the question. You and I may never see the performance difference they saw. They were pushing the limits.
I think it's safe to say that Carla is a power user when it comes to Linux. It may very well be that she pushes the limits on her system. If that's the case then performace differences between distros really do matter.
The Phoronix test suite is excellent but I agree with you that it doesn't always match real world usage models. That's the problem with any set of benchmarks. Your usage pattern is going to be different from anyone else's. I can run benchmarks and publish them. Someone will come along and pick them apart simply because what I do will not match what they do.
I did some work for Red Hat a few years back. We had a big, well known customer who was doing things that are probably as resource intensive as you can get. They were very upset that Red Hat did not officially support xfs in RHEL. Why, you ask? For their application, on the highest of the high end equipment available, with very large files, with very high CPU demand, with memory always at or near 100% utilization, filesystem performance was the biggest bottleneck. They tried ext3, reiserfs, jfs, and xfs. For what they did the performance improvement with xfs was huge. The app in question did not run properly in a clustered environment so GFS was out of the question. You and I may never see the performance difference they saw. They were pushing the limits.
I think it's safe to say that Carla is a power user when it comes to Linux. It may very well be that she pushes the limits on her system. If that's the case then performace differences between distros really do matter.
The Phoronix test suite is excellent but I agree with you that it doesn't always match real world usage models. That's the problem with any set of benchmarks. Your usage pattern is going to be different from anyone else's. I can run benchmarks and publish them. Someone will come along and pick them apart simply because what I do will not match what they do.
> ...but Ubuntu to PCLOS sounds like boredom.
Since when is boredom an invalid reason to switch distros?
> I've tried many distros and the speed issue is a furphy.
Then you obviously haven't tried Slackware.
> ...is that Slackware 13.0 will definitely include as its KDE default, KDE4.
Yeah, it looks that way, though I haven't followed current lately. Fortunately, I've been using XFCE for quite a while now, so it shouldn't really affect me unless K3b has problems.
Since when is boredom an invalid reason to switch distros?
> I've tried many distros and the speed issue is a furphy.
Then you obviously haven't tried Slackware.
> ...is that Slackware 13.0 will definitely include as its KDE default, KDE4.
Yeah, it looks that way, though I haven't followed current lately. Fortunately, I've been using XFCE for quite a while now, so it shouldn't really affect me unless K3b has problems.
Jdixon,
I agree boredom is a valid reason to switch distros. Just unacknowledged ;-) Also I have tried slackware and on my home machine there was little difference in everyday desktop use.
Caitlyn,
You are dead right about bottlenecks. I run a 32 cpu/ 4 node compute cluster at work to do scientific numerical modeling (RHEL5). At one stage the main problem was file transfer speeds between nodes and I was looking to possibly upgrade to myranet until I did a bottleneck analysis and found out that the write speed to the disks was the big problem. It was abysmal compared to the possible transfer speeds on standard interconnects.
Caitlyn,
You are dead right about bottlenecks. I run a 32 cpu/ 4 node compute cluster at work to do scientific numerical modeling (RHEL5). At one stage the main problem was file transfer speeds between nodes and I was looking to possibly upgrade to myranet until I did a bottleneck analysis and found out that the write speed to the disks was the big problem. It was abysmal compared to the possible transfer speeds on standard interconnects.
> Also I have tried slackware and on my home machine there was little difference in everyday desktop use.
Then your desktop is overpowered for what you need, as Caitlyn noted. Slackware is notably faster than most (though not all) other distros. I've found this to be consistently true when I've tried other distros, which I do on an irregular basis.
Then your desktop is overpowered for what you need, as Caitlyn noted. Slackware is notably faster than most (though not all) other distros. I've found this to be consistently true when I've tried other distros, which I do on an irregular basis.
>Then your desktop is overpowered for what you need
And here I thought Libertarians did not presume to tell others what they need. LOL
Seriously though, I would like to see some hard numbers to back up the claims being made about various distros speed. Until then strongly worded claims are just that.
Seriously though, I would like to see some hard numbers to back up the claims being made about various distros speed. Until then strongly worded claims are just that.
> And here I thought Libertarians did not presume to tell others what they need. LOL
I didn't. I told him it was overpowered for what he needs. Not that HE didn't need it.
Actual computing requirements for a specific task or tasks and user requirements aren't the same thing. :)
> I would like to see some hard numbers to back up the claims being made about various distros speed.
I think they've been done, but I don't have time to research right now. I should be working. :) Unfortunately, speed (actually, response time, from a user perspective) is a relatively subjective matter, so even hard numbers won't tell you much.
I didn't. I told him it was overpowered for what he needs. Not that HE didn't need it.
Actual computing requirements for a specific task or tasks and user requirements aren't the same thing. :)
> I would like to see some hard numbers to back up the claims being made about various distros speed.
I think they've been done, but I don't have time to research right now. I should be working. :) Unfortunately, speed (actually, response time, from a user perspective) is a relatively subjective matter, so even hard numbers won't tell you much.
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No idea how I did that. It kinda reminds me of this (NSFW): http://bash.org/?5300
@nicsmr: I meant that Carla probably wrote a long reply to something and then edited it to the way it is now, to indicate she wanted to remove her own comment.