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Unity on Wayland
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Comments (40)
20 earlier comments in the full thread.
> As if rest of the people working on Linux and the surrounding technologies don't need to be consulted about a change that major.
Well, whether we like it or not, they don't. Ubuntu belongs to Canonical, and they can do pretty much anything they wish with it, as long as they abide by the licenses.
Now, if this were some small distribution (say Linpus, merely to pick one at random from Distrowatch) I doubt anyone would care. It's the fact that it's Ubuntu that makes it important to people.
Well, whether we like it or not, they don't. Ubuntu belongs to Canonical, and they can do pretty much anything they wish with it, as long as they abide by the licenses.
Now, if this were some small distribution (say Linpus, merely to pick one at random from Distrowatch) I doubt anyone would care. It's the fact that it's Ubuntu that makes it important to people.
R.A. Trip: Fair enough.
When starting this thread, I wanted to type:
'Next month Mr. Shuttleworth will announce Ubuntu will replace the Linux kernel with something else", but I didn't. I think such a joke is applicable though.
When starting this thread, I wanted to type:
'Next month Mr. Shuttleworth will announce Ubuntu will replace the Linux kernel with something else", but I didn't. I think such a joke is applicable though.
@Jdixon
Ubuntu belongs to Canonical, and they can do pretty much anything they wish with it, as long as they abide by the licenses.
Maybe you've missed it, but I already pointed that out myself:
I know that the licenses allow Canonical to do just what they are doing right now.
Still, downstream concocting all kinds exotic stuff, which diverges significantly from upstream will eventually bring Linux that dreaded "fragmentation" that has been used as a contra to Linux use. If all distributors get fancy, we'll be back at the Unix wars.
Ubuntu belongs to Canonical, and they can do pretty much anything they wish with it, as long as they abide by the licenses.
Maybe you've missed it, but I already pointed that out myself:
I know that the licenses allow Canonical to do just what they are doing right now.
Still, downstream concocting all kinds exotic stuff, which diverges significantly from upstream will eventually bring Linux that dreaded "fragmentation" that has been used as a contra to Linux use. If all distributors get fancy, we'll be back at the Unix wars.
> Maybe you've missed it, but I already pointed that out myself:
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. :)
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. :)
If X hadn't been a fairly regular source of incompatibility on just about every machine I've run over the past few years, I'd be piling on, too. But the breakage I've suffered on Intel and now ATI across many Linux and BSD systems has made a non-believer out of me. A little competition in the display space is welcome.
> A little competition in the display space is welcome.
Yeah. It's the decree from above aspect of the situation that's bothering people. Slackware would have rolled out Wayland in testing for those who wanted to try it, let people who wanted to bang on it for at least one or two revisions, then finally rolled it out in stable as an option when Patrick thought it was ready. It wouldn't have been made the default until some time later, if at all.
Yeah. It's the decree from above aspect of the situation that's bothering people. Slackware would have rolled out Wayland in testing for those who wanted to try it, let people who wanted to bang on it for at least one or two revisions, then finally rolled it out in stable as an option when Patrick thought it was ready. It wouldn't have been made the default until some time later, if at all.
Quoting:Yeah. It's the decree from above aspect of the situation that's bothering people.Good Heavens, there is no "decree from above". Nobody is touching your slackware or whatever your distro of choice, so take a deep breath and relax.
Since Shuttleworth has a say at Canonical, and rightly so, he ought to be able to make decisions about the direction of *his own distro* without being howled at and pelted with debris from the cheap seats.
If you don't like his leadership, don't think his vision is valid etc,you're free to use any other distro - and probably already do - but I think I'll wait and see what form this crude starting point will eventually take...
Quoting:Slackware would have rolled out Wayland in testing for those who wanted to try it, let people who wanted to bang on it for at least one or two revisions, then finally rolled it out in stable as an option when Patrick thought it was ready.
Nowhere is it said this isn't the approach Ubuntu is taking, one year means two Ubuntu releases at least. Moreover, there's the obvious similarity in both distro's if one person says it's good to go, it goes in. So in approach, I see no difference.
If Ubuntu wants to go their own way, I'm all for it. We can judge their decision on merit after the release (i.e. the same as any other distro).
I'd rather somebody do their own thing so we can have more diversity out there - different technologies to choose from and see what works better.
I'd rather somebody do their own thing so we can have more diversity out there - different technologies to choose from and see what works better.
Well said, my guess is that they are shooting themselves in the foot ... with a machine gun, but hey, let them try. The worse thing that could happen is that they would be fatally wrong.
> Good Heavens, there is no "decree from above".
I don't no what else you'd call it herzeleid. Yes, it's only Ubuntu, but that doesn't change the fact that not even Ubuntu users were given a chance to have any input.
> ...If you don't like his leadership, don't think his vision is valid etc,you're free to use any other distro.
What part of "I use Slackware" has escaped you over the years?
Believe it or not, I'm not criticizing any of Ubuntu, Canonical, or Shuttleworth. My statement was intended as an analysis of how other people were reacting, not my personal position. I apologize if that wasn't clear.
> Nowhere is it said this isn't the approach Ubuntu is taking,
True. And nowhere is it said it is. Ubuntu's history doesn't indicate that it's likely though. They've tended to push the envelope, especially in their non-LTS versions.
> So in approach, I see no difference.
Hans, with all due respect, if you see no difference, you haven't followed Slackware's development over the years. Believe me, there's a world of difference.
I don't no what else you'd call it herzeleid. Yes, it's only Ubuntu, but that doesn't change the fact that not even Ubuntu users were given a chance to have any input.
> ...If you don't like his leadership, don't think his vision is valid etc,you're free to use any other distro.
What part of "I use Slackware" has escaped you over the years?
Believe it or not, I'm not criticizing any of Ubuntu, Canonical, or Shuttleworth. My statement was intended as an analysis of how other people were reacting, not my personal position. I apologize if that wasn't clear.
> Nowhere is it said this isn't the approach Ubuntu is taking,
True. And nowhere is it said it is. Ubuntu's history doesn't indicate that it's likely though. They've tended to push the envelope, especially in their non-LTS versions.
> So in approach, I see no difference.
Hans, with all due respect, if you see no difference, you haven't followed Slackware's development over the years. Believe me, there's a world of difference.
@Steven_Rosenber
I'd rather somebody do their own thing so we can have more diversity out there - different technologies to choose from and see what works better.
If wayland was an inconsequential technology, I would agree wholeheartedly. Wayland, like X, is a major piece of plumbing and everything above it will one way or the other have to be adapted to it. Even that isn't a problem, though. At least if Wayland would be the undisputed and designated replacement of X.org.
Problem here is that Ubuntu is the only one pushing Wayland right now. So we'll end up with a Wayland distro and a slew of X.org distro's. What will developers have to do to target these different platforms? Trust that the "legacy" X on top of Wayland will be around for a long time and target X with their apps and instantly make their apps "legacy" on a Wayland distro? Or do they have to forgo X and all the X distro's and target Wayland directly in the hope that Wayland one day will become the designated replacement of X.org?
I'd feel a lot more at ease if a few other big distro's came out and also declared their intention to switch to Wayland. Too much divergence in the plumbing will only lead to incompatibilities. Linux already has an undeserved bad rap in that department. Making it true by using different display systems is counterproductive.
I'd rather somebody do their own thing so we can have more diversity out there - different technologies to choose from and see what works better.
If wayland was an inconsequential technology, I would agree wholeheartedly. Wayland, like X, is a major piece of plumbing and everything above it will one way or the other have to be adapted to it. Even that isn't a problem, though. At least if Wayland would be the undisputed and designated replacement of X.org.
Problem here is that Ubuntu is the only one pushing Wayland right now. So we'll end up with a Wayland distro and a slew of X.org distro's. What will developers have to do to target these different platforms? Trust that the "legacy" X on top of Wayland will be around for a long time and target X with their apps and instantly make their apps "legacy" on a Wayland distro? Or do they have to forgo X and all the X distro's and target Wayland directly in the hope that Wayland one day will become the designated replacement of X.org?
I'd feel a lot more at ease if a few other big distro's came out and also declared their intention to switch to Wayland. Too much divergence in the plumbing will only lead to incompatibilities. Linux already has an undeserved bad rap in that department. Making it true by using different display systems is counterproductive.
@jdixon -
> What part of "I use Slackware" has escaped you over the years?
What makes you think any of that escaped me? You use slackware, but there are others in this forum. If the shoe doesn't fit, feel free to conclude that it's someone else's.
> not even Ubuntu users were given a chance to have any input.
What exactly did you have in mind? I'm an ubuntu user, and my input was heard loud and clear - and trust me, it doesn't mean that I want the design team to be checking in with me and all the other users to get consensus for every single design decision. It means I voted with my hardware to give ubuntu the position, and that means I accept their design leadership, and their vision. If I ever decide that I don't agree with where they are going, I'm free to bail. isn't choice wonderful?
I'm thinking that by the time unity on wayland is shipping, all these concerns will all seem rather quaint.
> What part of "I use Slackware" has escaped you over the years?
What makes you think any of that escaped me? You use slackware, but there are others in this forum. If the shoe doesn't fit, feel free to conclude that it's someone else's.
> not even Ubuntu users were given a chance to have any input.
What exactly did you have in mind? I'm an ubuntu user, and my input was heard loud and clear - and trust me, it doesn't mean that I want the design team to be checking in with me and all the other users to get consensus for every single design decision. It means I voted with my hardware to give ubuntu the position, and that means I accept their design leadership, and their vision. If I ever decide that I don't agree with where they are going, I'm free to bail. isn't choice wonderful?
I'm thinking that by the time unity on wayland is shipping, all these concerns will all seem rather quaint.
> If the shoe doesn't fit, feel free to conclude that it's someone else's.
You're probably correct. I do seem to be a bit touchy lately and taking things too personally when they're probably not meant that way.
> What exactly did you have in mind?
Well, as already noted, it's not really any of my concern. But a simple post on the Ubuntu forum boards asking for user feedback before making the final decision would seem to be reasonable for a change of this magnitude.
Of course, in their minds what they've done may be exactly that. The public announcement of their plans may be their way of asking for feedback.
> isn't choice wonderful?
Yes, it is.
You're probably correct. I do seem to be a bit touchy lately and taking things too personally when they're probably not meant that way.
> What exactly did you have in mind?
Well, as already noted, it's not really any of my concern. But a simple post on the Ubuntu forum boards asking for user feedback before making the final decision would seem to be reasonable for a change of this magnitude.
Of course, in their minds what they've done may be exactly that. The public announcement of their plans may be their way of asking for feedback.
> isn't choice wonderful?
Yes, it is.
Somebody's got to go first. If Ubuntu wants to do that, fine by me.
Just for perspective, here's a quote from a fedora developer -
Wayland's not a usable default yet. It'll probably be packaged in F15 as something you can play with. We don't even have a complete list of transition criteria yet, let alone a timeframe for switching the default. But it's likely to happen eventually because it's a serious win for a lot of things, and the downsides are pretty negligible despite the fear from the peanut gallery. -- Adam Jackson
Wayland's not a usable default yet. It'll probably be packaged in F15 as something you can play with. We don't even have a complete list of transition criteria yet, let alone a timeframe for switching the default. But it's likely to happen eventually because it's a serious win for a lot of things, and the downsides are pretty negligible despite the fear from the peanut gallery. -- Adam Jackson
I think F15 is pretty coherent with the 'multiple Ubuntu-versions ahead' of Mr. Shuttleworth.
There's always Xfce. It's my hedge against GNOME going bat-s%^ crazy.
Quoting:I've never heard of it - do you ever think maybe Shuttleworth never heard of it either?
Well before they even had 'Unity' in ubuntu we were asked to give up that name in launchpad. We did because it's their playground...but we asked them to put a link on the front page for Unity Linux...so we play nice with them. However, it's not like we'd have had a choice in the matter.
Mark knew our project existed because all you have to do is google Unity Linux and we're the #1 project out there. We're also unique because we preemptively used Smart with RPM5 before Mandriva ever did...now they're coming to our side...we have cookies.
Even though you guys may not have heard of us...we're still out there and we were a simple search away...I highly doubt that Mark didn't have 15 people looking to see if the name was taken. I think he just feels we're small fish...that I don't care about. What I do care about is having a company put their thumb on our heads later on when they feel they must protect their product. I sure hope it doesn't happen.
As for calling him a Butt Clown...that's a bit playful if I were trying to draw blood with a comment so you might understand that I'm not trying to call him out on anything...I'm just expressing worry. If I didn't like the guy or his distro I'd call him a jackass or worse. Butt clowns are those guys that embarrass you in front of hot chicks when you're in a group of guys out on the town (man, that was 20 years ago for me!) so I'm saying Mark is a goofy guy for naming his stuff the same as our stuff :) Just wanted to clarify.
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Yes, I think it is ludicrous to castrate a multicore, powerful, multipurpose machine into a "smart" phone. If the multipurpose nature isn't a good fit, then we need to get the majority, scared of real power and choices, on to Galaxy Tabs, WeTabs and iPads. Don't make a mockery of desktop computing, just because most people want to treat their programmable machines as magic toasters. If that is the ultimate destination of computing technology, we wouldn't have had to advance past the original Pentium 60 MHz. Winning the desktop by negating the desktop is pyrrhic.
My problem with Canonical and Wayland is not Wayland in itself. Maybe Wayland on the desktop is the best way forward. I know I probably don't use 90% of what X11 and X.org are capable off and a local display system would be adequate near 100% of the time. What irks me is that Canonical just anounces Wayland as the new Viceroy of display. As if rest of the people working on Linux and the surrounding technologies don't need to be consulted about a change that major. Linux today is where it is, because the majority of projects have sought coherence and gotten it through consensus and cooperation.
I know that the licenses allow Canonical to do just what they are doing right now. It doesn't mean that I have to just accept it silently and cheer them on. What they are doing now will eventually splinter the coherent experience that Linux offers today on the desktop. I don't want to live in a world where there are Windows packages, OS X packages, Ubuntu packages and Linux packages. We need less controlling OS companies, not more. Canonical is on its way to become a big "proprietary" OS vendor, selling something that used to be Linux. (No, I don't believe they will maintain compatibility with the current crop of Linux software in the long run).
p.s. Before someone mentions Android. Different use case. Android is a phone and pad OS and I don't feel they will take over the desktop. If they do... Well, the dream of the Linux desktop was pretty while it lasted.