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Linux is only for bachelors
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Comments (75)
55 earlier comments in the full thread.
" It's one of the advertised options in the build part. You have to choose your OS, otherwise you don't get one."
Yes -- and no.
I broke down once and started to order -- or at least explore the possibility of ordering -- a netbook from Dell. What I discovered was that once I selected the Linux OS option, I lost the option to get a larger battery (providing 6+ hours life rather than ~3 hours). Backing-up through the process confirmed that the larger batteries were indeed available for Windows versions, and indeed not available with Linux.
I forget what other options Dell deemed somehow "incompatible" with / unavailable for Linux, except that Norton 360 security suite wasn't one of them :-P
Right then and there, I lost what little interest I might have had in buying a Linux computer from Dell.
Yes -- and no.
I broke down once and started to order -- or at least explore the possibility of ordering -- a netbook from Dell. What I discovered was that once I selected the Linux OS option, I lost the option to get a larger battery (providing 6+ hours life rather than ~3 hours). Backing-up through the process confirmed that the larger batteries were indeed available for Windows versions, and indeed not available with Linux.
I forget what other options Dell deemed somehow "incompatible" with / unavailable for Linux, except that Norton 360 security suite wasn't one of them :-P
Right then and there, I lost what little interest I might have had in buying a Linux computer from Dell.
@BernardSwiss Dell my well try all sorts of shenanigans to give the appearance of supporting Linux, while in fact not doing so. But that does not apply in the case I have posted about. You get the same hardware with No OS, Ubuntu, or Windows, no smarmy "but you can't get this option if you chose that option". You order the hardware, then you order the OS to go on it, or not.
Sorry, tracyanne -- I thought we were talking about Dell shenanigans.
I wasn't dissing your Aussie OEM (I'm way over in Canada). It sounds good,
I hope that the nasty smoke&mirrors, bait&switch practices -- deceitfully offering Linux to customers while simultaneously sabotaging it as a value proposition -- dies an ugly death and in its death throes bites its practitioners (hopefully somewhere where it really hurts). Or at least provides more honest and forward outfits like your Australian company with a solid opportunity to gain market share.
I see that Asus has once again announced it's providing Linux (Ubuntu) netbooks. I wonder how that will turn out?
I wasn't dissing your Aussie OEM (I'm way over in Canada). It sounds good,
I hope that the nasty smoke&mirrors, bait&switch practices -- deceitfully offering Linux to customers while simultaneously sabotaging it as a value proposition -- dies an ugly death and in its death throes bites its practitioners (hopefully somewhere where it really hurts). Or at least provides more honest and forward outfits like your Australian company with a solid opportunity to gain market share.
I see that Asus has once again announced it's providing Linux (Ubuntu) netbooks. I wonder how that will turn out?
> I wonder how that will turn out?
How long will it take Microsoft to pony up the additional money to make Asus toe the line? Good question.
I honestly have no idea. Blowing $8 Billion on Skype can't have helped their bribery fund any.
How long will it take Microsoft to pony up the additional money to make Asus toe the line? Good question.
I honestly have no idea. Blowing $8 Billion on Skype can't have helped their bribery fund any.
@BernardSwiss, I buy all my computers from them. They are good, and the only time I had any trouble was with a netbook, when I sent it back they flashed a new BIOS and it worked perfectly afterwards
With samiam claiming we all should own a Windows box I could not resist. With apologies to the late Theodore Geisel:
I do not like Windows and SPAM
I do not like them samiam
I do not like them in my home
I do not like them where I roam
I do not like them on a mobile device
or on my desktop, they don't play nice
I do not like them in my house
I do not click on them with my mouse
I do not like Windows and SPAM
I do not like them samiam
I do not like Windows and SPAM
I do not like them samiam
I do not like them in my home
I do not like them where I roam
I do not like them on a mobile device
or on my desktop, they don't play nice
I do not like them in my house
I do not click on them with my mouse
I do not like Windows and SPAM
I do not like them samiam
Applause, Caitlyn! Wonderful!
My problem is that im pretty much hogtied into keeping one Windows 7 box around as im a serious gamer and in that field, Linux i'm afraid still does not cut the mustard through no fault of its own.
I would love to get rid of Windows, everything else is Linux and has been since the late 90's.
As far as i'm concerned if it weren't for gaming Windows would be a dead platform in my house.
Why would anyone want to keep it around if they didn't have to, just getting off the virus merry-go-round is justification enough to ditch it.
I have a dream that a time will come when Linux becomes an excellent gaming platform supporting all the latest gaming goodness, I also believe in the tooth fairy and santa clause :)
PS: I'm not a bachelor as Linux allows me to spend more time with my family even my 3 year old knows his way around a Linux PC why because its child's play, I dread to think what he would do if I said "Im sorry son but the PC has a virus that daddy needs to fix and it could be a while before you can watch your Diggers and Dump trucks on Youtube" thankfully with Linux this is a scenario I will never have to deal with!
I would love to get rid of Windows, everything else is Linux and has been since the late 90's.
As far as i'm concerned if it weren't for gaming Windows would be a dead platform in my house.
Why would anyone want to keep it around if they didn't have to, just getting off the virus merry-go-round is justification enough to ditch it.
I have a dream that a time will come when Linux becomes an excellent gaming platform supporting all the latest gaming goodness, I also believe in the tooth fairy and santa clause :)
PS: I'm not a bachelor as Linux allows me to spend more time with my family even my 3 year old knows his way around a Linux PC why because its child's play, I dread to think what he would do if I said "Im sorry son but the PC has a virus that daddy needs to fix and it could be a while before you can watch your Diggers and Dump trucks on Youtube" thankfully with Linux this is a scenario I will never have to deal with!
@Caitlyn........I just read your wonderful "samiam" out to my wife for a very special reason. And yes, she can laugh now, but there was a time, many years ago, when she had to "babysit" five kids and each time she did so, they requested that she read Green Eggs and Ham as their bedtime story.........Little wonder that after dozens of readings, she worked up a considerable distaste(?) for the story.......but she can laugh at it now. Loved your version. :-) Very well done. (That should trigger a nerve in anybody with either RN, RNZN or RAN backgrounds.)
Montezuma: Thanks for the laugh!
Ridcully: I have been in contact with FSFE and they have been in contact with the EU DG about the issue you raised. Lots of times I wrote about it on LXer, but you may have missed it. In short, as I don't want to hijack the thread, a quick recap:
-OEM's decide to bundle their products with Windows. Officialy, Microsoft is not forcing them. So it's not Microsoft causing their monopoly on "store PC's", but OEM's.
-OEM's (think Dell, HP, Acer) don't have a dominant position (defined as "over 40% market share" here in EU), like Microsoft. If OEM's don't have a dominant position, they can't abuse it - against EU Treaty Article 81/82.
-If Microsoft offers monetary incentives not to ship with Linux - like you and I are pretty sure they do - then probably they are in violation of 81/82. But there's no proof, as the contracts between MS and the OEM's are secret. And without "really strong reasons to believe they are in violation", there's no way they're going to raid offices, like for example the Dutch competition authority NMa regularly does.
-Once I called the NMa, but they're not going to do anything about said issue.
-Once I contacted 10 OEM's about the issue and their return policy. Most didn't respond, some like Acer have a return policy, some like HP / Toshiba think they're not required to do so.
-Following actions like mine, MS changed the EULA: IIRC since 7 you can only receive a refund if you return the computer as well.
-The DG of Competition of the EU is seriously understaffed.
-Italian ADUC filed a formal complaint following the 'rules for complaining'. I heard via-via from the DG it's not a problem of nobody complaining, but a lack of proof and manpower.
-The DG asked businesses to hand over any proof to them. But why would OEM's snitch? Snitching is usual here in the EU; the one who snitches about being part of a cartel doesn't have to pay fines. Think of the recent cases of steel / elevator / memory cartels.
OEM's are pretty dependent on Microsoft, that's the issue. Microsoft OTOH isn't dependent on single OEM's. If one OEM doesn't want to cooperate, they'll raise Windows volume licensing prices for that OEM to such a level, they can't compete with the other OEM's who do work with Microsoft. If HP/Acer/Toshiba pay $20 per Windows license because on consumer desktops they don't sell FreeDOS/Ubuntu/bare, and Dell has to pay $50 per Windows license because they do offer Ubuntu, then Dell PC's with Windows will end up $30 more expensive than the competition at MediaMarkt/Saturn etc, guess who loses market share!
In such a way, Microsoft is not forbidding OEM's to sell non-Windows computers, but given the dominance of Windows PC's, still effectively forcing them. As demand for Windows remains high, new entrants like Asus / MSI first weren't dependent on MS - so they could sell Linux like they did on the Eee. But consumers demanded Windows, so they became dependent and had to pull Linux prototypes from exhibitions (pretty sure because MS asked). As you probably recall Dell pulled within a day (!) an advert on their Ubuntu-offerings saying Linux suffers less from viruses then you-know-who.
-For Dell et. all, as 99%+ of the people want Windows, they put the Windows images on the HD at their manufacturing locations in India; that's cheaper. Even if from time to time they have to refund $200 or so if some Lin-fanboy doesn't want it. Cheaper then selling no-OS and ask consumers in store what they want.
That's the situation, and there's not much to be done about it. Except if tons of consumers - just for the sake of bullying and causing an administrative burden - buy lots of PC's, don't accept the MS EULA and return their PC to the stores. Only snitching OEM's can really change something.
Ridcully: I have been in contact with FSFE and they have been in contact with the EU DG about the issue you raised. Lots of times I wrote about it on LXer, but you may have missed it. In short, as I don't want to hijack the thread, a quick recap:
-OEM's decide to bundle their products with Windows. Officialy, Microsoft is not forcing them. So it's not Microsoft causing their monopoly on "store PC's", but OEM's.
-OEM's (think Dell, HP, Acer) don't have a dominant position (defined as "over 40% market share" here in EU), like Microsoft. If OEM's don't have a dominant position, they can't abuse it - against EU Treaty Article 81/82.
-If Microsoft offers monetary incentives not to ship with Linux - like you and I are pretty sure they do - then probably they are in violation of 81/82. But there's no proof, as the contracts between MS and the OEM's are secret. And without "really strong reasons to believe they are in violation", there's no way they're going to raid offices, like for example the Dutch competition authority NMa regularly does.
-Once I called the NMa, but they're not going to do anything about said issue.
-Once I contacted 10 OEM's about the issue and their return policy. Most didn't respond, some like Acer have a return policy, some like HP / Toshiba think they're not required to do so.
-Following actions like mine, MS changed the EULA: IIRC since 7 you can only receive a refund if you return the computer as well.
-The DG of Competition of the EU is seriously understaffed.
-Italian ADUC filed a formal complaint following the 'rules for complaining'. I heard via-via from the DG it's not a problem of nobody complaining, but a lack of proof and manpower.
-The DG asked businesses to hand over any proof to them. But why would OEM's snitch? Snitching is usual here in the EU; the one who snitches about being part of a cartel doesn't have to pay fines. Think of the recent cases of steel / elevator / memory cartels.
OEM's are pretty dependent on Microsoft, that's the issue. Microsoft OTOH isn't dependent on single OEM's. If one OEM doesn't want to cooperate, they'll raise Windows volume licensing prices for that OEM to such a level, they can't compete with the other OEM's who do work with Microsoft. If HP/Acer/Toshiba pay $20 per Windows license because on consumer desktops they don't sell FreeDOS/Ubuntu/bare, and Dell has to pay $50 per Windows license because they do offer Ubuntu, then Dell PC's with Windows will end up $30 more expensive than the competition at MediaMarkt/Saturn etc, guess who loses market share!
In such a way, Microsoft is not forbidding OEM's to sell non-Windows computers, but given the dominance of Windows PC's, still effectively forcing them. As demand for Windows remains high, new entrants like Asus / MSI first weren't dependent on MS - so they could sell Linux like they did on the Eee. But consumers demanded Windows, so they became dependent and had to pull Linux prototypes from exhibitions (pretty sure because MS asked). As you probably recall Dell pulled within a day (!) an advert on their Ubuntu-offerings saying Linux suffers less from viruses then you-know-who.
-For Dell et. all, as 99%+ of the people want Windows, they put the Windows images on the HD at their manufacturing locations in India; that's cheaper. Even if from time to time they have to refund $200 or so if some Lin-fanboy doesn't want it. Cheaper then selling no-OS and ask consumers in store what they want.
That's the situation, and there's not much to be done about it. Except if tons of consumers - just for the sake of bullying and causing an administrative burden - buy lots of PC's, don't accept the MS EULA and return their PC to the stores. Only snitching OEM's can really change something.
Many thanks Hkwint.........I want to go away and digest your response very slowly. I haven't seen this sort of detail before.
Quoting:OEM's decide to bundle their products with Windows.
That is not all, they also refuse to offer a choice unless when buying a large quantity.
True, legally there is nothing that can be done about it sans a proof. Customers to take action is far fetched, they either don't care, not convinced, or not united enough. But something can be done about it. Adopt a Linux-PC
Among the multiple reasons why Linux adoption is slow, two main ones standout. Lack of commercial apps/games, and over all support.
For home users, commercial apps are not of a big deal because for most, there are Open Source replacements and Virtual Machines to run Windows apps are available. Support could remove these barriers. So for home users, it boils down to support.
So how does Adopt a Linux-PC work?
There are many forums and support sites and I am sure they are doing good job, but are they organized and structured to give customer quality and friendly service? I don't think so.
What is needed is a free/donation/subscription volunteer based Linux support center that would give professional support. Sort of a "Internet Help Desk" system that would furnish support no matter what distribution, application, or problem related to Linux is.
Helios Project is doing a great job but, AFAIK, limited geographically and to supplying & supporting refurbished computers ONLY, why can't it be extended or a new project for a Help Desk System be created for support purposes?
I think it is time to act.
@Koriel: "As far as i'm concerned if it weren't for gaming Windows would be a dead platform in my house."
Our Ubuntu box running Wine 1.3 cutting edge has a special login called Gamer.
We use that when we want to run games on the machine.
I have to say that we don't run the absolutely most up-to-date games but the kids and I do enjoy Tomb Raider, Unreal Tournament (various versions), FarCry etc and they all run great under Linux.
There are a few which won't but that list is quickly becoming vanishingly small.
A year or two ago, I had the expectation that Wine would most likely not run a piece of Windows software. These days, I am more surprised when it doesn't work.
Our Ubuntu box running Wine 1.3 cutting edge has a special login called Gamer.
We use that when we want to run games on the machine.
I have to say that we don't run the absolutely most up-to-date games but the kids and I do enjoy Tomb Raider, Unreal Tournament (various versions), FarCry etc and they all run great under Linux.
There are a few which won't but that list is quickly becoming vanishingly small.
A year or two ago, I had the expectation that Wine would most likely not run a piece of Windows software. These days, I am more surprised when it doesn't work.
@skelband
Wine is fine for certain slightly older games but unless your willing to spend a lot of time fiddling on the newer ones then you might as well forget it especially if their is a good chance after all the fiddling it still wont work as Wine just lacks the support for it.
I've also been down the Transgaming Cedega route and that was just plain awful, I hear Crossover is pretty good but still doesn't support the latest stuff. Also their is the video driver problem, ATI Catalyst linux driver is just total crap under wine and just about anything else.
Their is a reason Mozilla dont allow hardware acceleration on Linux when an ATI card is present and only Nvidia is supported by them.
So for now its a solitary Windows 7 box.
Wine is fine for certain slightly older games but unless your willing to spend a lot of time fiddling on the newer ones then you might as well forget it especially if their is a good chance after all the fiddling it still wont work as Wine just lacks the support for it.
I've also been down the Transgaming Cedega route and that was just plain awful, I hear Crossover is pretty good but still doesn't support the latest stuff. Also their is the video driver problem, ATI Catalyst linux driver is just total crap under wine and just about anything else.
Their is a reason Mozilla dont allow hardware acceleration on Linux when an ATI card is present and only Nvidia is supported by them.
So for now its a solitary Windows 7 box.
it's true, linux really is only for batchelors.
i too switched to windows after i got married.
read the details of my plight here:
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.foresight.devel/1944
greetings, eMBee.
greetings, eMBee.
If life were but a game, I could agree...Diane plays Pogo on Linux incessantly and has never had any problems.
But again, I find myself a bit to0 busy to game, except the rare occasion of kicking someone's a$$ on a Nexuiz Lan.
Other than that, I wouldn't agree to the MS Windows EULA with a gun to my head. If most thinking people would read it, they'd have to actually agree that their convenience is more important than their principles.
Than again, those stuck using it at work are, uh...stuck using it at work.
But again, I find myself a bit to0 busy to game, except the rare occasion of kicking someone's a$$ on a Nexuiz Lan.
Other than that, I wouldn't agree to the MS Windows EULA with a gun to my head. If most thinking people would read it, they'd have to actually agree that their convenience is more important than their principles.
Than again, those stuck using it at work are, uh...stuck using it at work.
Actually, it's true.
I mean, if I used Windows at home, I'd be all up to date on fixing Windows issues, and at the coffee shop I could solve that pretty girl's Windows Woes in five maybe ten minutes. Or at least give an authoritative diagnosis ("The problem is that you're using Windows", just doesn't cut it).
But as a Linux user, it takes me more like forty minutes, at least (probably more), so she loses patience, figures I'm a dweeb -- one who thinks he's a geek but doesn't really even "know computers" after all -- and she's out of time anyways and heads back to work or where-ever, carefully avoiding any signs of encouraging further contact...
Yep, it's clear and obvious (self-evident, really) that Linux users are going to be bachelors...
I mean, if I used Windows at home, I'd be all up to date on fixing Windows issues, and at the coffee shop I could solve that pretty girl's Windows Woes in five maybe ten minutes. Or at least give an authoritative diagnosis ("The problem is that you're using Windows", just doesn't cut it).
But as a Linux user, it takes me more like forty minutes, at least (probably more), so she loses patience, figures I'm a dweeb -- one who thinks he's a geek but doesn't really even "know computers" after all -- and she's out of time anyways and heads back to work or where-ever, carefully avoiding any signs of encouraging further contact...
Yep, it's clear and obvious (self-evident, really) that Linux users are going to be bachelors...
@Bernard,
http://mindplusplus.wordpress.com/2004/09/19/an_important_an...
If you need to actually, you know, LOOK at it, well, I suppose we can't all be gurus.
More details at http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/69214.html
http://mindplusplus.wordpress.com/2004/09/19/an_important_an...
If you need to actually, you know, LOOK at it, well, I suppose we can't all be gurus.
More details at http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/69214.html
caitlyn wrote: But heck, if Sam wants to use Windows more power to him. Just don't trash everyone who disagrees.
And see if you can get his home address. Every so often there's gonna be a Windows box out at the curb there on trash-collection day because the HD's full of worms, or the registry is b0rk3d, or the cup-holder won't retract, or the ashtrays are full. That's another box you can run Linux on without paying a cent of Redmond tax.
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Based on the customer repsonses on thier web site I'd say most of the customers are happy with their Linux (Ubuntu) powered machines.