The Real Sun versus Red Hat Story
In a recent Op-Ed article, George Colony, CEO, Forrester Research, pulled what I consider the equivalent of a CBS Memogate gaffe by telling us how Sun has an eight step plan to destroy Linux in conjunction with Microsoft. Having relationships with both companies in more than one capacity, Colony's article resonated with disinformation. My direct experience shows this to be untrue, and it moved me to write a rebuttal. I read George's editorial in the comment section of ZDNet U.K. -- not what I think most people would consider a serious section of the ZDNet universe. Dan Rather stood in steadfast denial when several veteran technicians indicated that his memos were written in Microsoft Word. If you followed the reports, his experts even admitted they had problems with the documents. Some defenders even claimed that the type fonts and the superscript fonts existed in 1972. In a branch of psychology, when someone stands in front of another and simply lies convincingly, they call that "crazy making". If Sun Microsystems intends to kill Linux, then why are they installing it internally? Why have they continued their relationship with Novell SUSE by building beta releases of the next Java Desktop System with GNU/Linux? Why does a separate business unit for Linux exist at Sun? Interesting questions after the CEO of Forrester Research wrote than Sun was banding with Microsoft to kill Linux. Shortly after Colony's article appeared, Hiawatha Bray in a Boston Globe article quoted the Chairman of Sun: "We love Linux," said McNealy at yesterday's meeting of the Massachusetts Telecommunications Council in Newton. "We just don't love Red Hat." Three days ago, in his Blog, Jonathan Schwartz wrote: "I guess I did a miserably poor job of communicating with George Colony. And he didn't take me up on reading my blog. Red Hat does not equal linux, and linux is not evil. But, linux in the enterprise datacenter (that is, not your basement or startup or dorm room or gamebox) does equal Red Hat - and competing against a company is what we do for a living. Competing against a social movement we helped to found is a waste of energy, George. My fault for not more effectively communicating." As I reviewed Colony's article, I felt that it appeared speculative and lacking any substantive quotes from Sun. I considered it an opinion piece. The vetting seems to have no authority other than Colony, the CEO of Forrester. It did create quite a controversy in the ranks of the open source world. It sounded convincing. For an independent, part-time journalist like me, I find little else sweeter than an agenda oriented writer caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Regardless of ones political beliefs, finding Dan Rather at CBS with forged documents was wonderful. Catching a Microsoft advocate spawning a story like Colony's also provides satisfaction. If Memogate ever contributes to breaking radical mainstream media bias, then it will serve all of us well. We might just have a crack at freedom of the press again someday. I'm just wondering if Memogate will fall over and slow down the thoughtless reporting of the technology media (and people like George Colony) as it did with politically biased journalists for the ten days following Rather admitting he made a mistake. Will readers ever become skeptical of the Microsoft spin zone? Does technology reporting on Linux have a parallel with the political press? I believe it does. The media seeks to make money in their various ways. They seek to control what people believe by affecting those mechanisms of our perception. If you recognize the manipulation, you're unplugged. It takes special training to recognize disinformation. Here's the unspun versionRed Hat has an employee head count of approximately 700. Globally, they have the most widely recognizable brand related to Linux. Some might consider Red Hat long on opportunities and short on bandwidth. They have more business opportunities than they do people to successfully capture those opportunities. The most famous Linux company is tiny in terms of size and capacity. They are still the flag bearer. Red Hat reached their current status because they took advantage of excellent market conditions by offering a powerful operating system for commodity based hardware. They created a business plan that allowed them to collect significant fees with high gross margins in what you would call a subscription service model. So, Red Hat came along at the right time, with the right product. They lose business at times because they cannot provide service people want, but lost customers are not material to their revenue or their business model as it stands. Red Hat has many quality people working for them. They are waking up to the fact that Novell poses a real threat in the market. As a result, many people at Red Hat have started to insist on a cultural change. They admit their own past arrogance as they attempt to face the realities of competition from Novell. In contrast to Red Hat, Sun Microsystems has an employee head count of approximately 32,600. Globally, they have the most widely recognizable brand related to UNIX. Some might consider Sun an opportunity fulfillment machine. They have plenty of business opportunities and they can meet those needs. They find themselves in the middle of a major reorganization. They appear late in terms of the market shift to commodity based hardware. Those who do not understand Sun's business model do not realize how they have to adjust to a large and affluent customer base. Much of the same kind of media bias and speculation we see today about Sun existed when I contracted at IBM ten years ago. The IBM body count ran about 200,000 out of 400,000. Everyone seemed lost, confused and scared. We took off our blue suits and white shirts and started dressing like the guys at Apple Computers. We had a new CEO from outside the ranks of IBM. The press never let up. Sun has the ability to go through their restructuring in a more graceful manner than IBM. Sun's CEO and new executive team do not follow the slash and burn techniques of other companies. They put their customers first. They continue to have a professional sales organization. Sun will educate themselves and make a come back. They are not stretched too thin. Something else might help Linux advocates get a sense of Sun Microsystems. They are performing the largest Linux desktop rollout in US history. That's correct, Sun Microsystems is rolling out Linux internally. They are their own customer. Their experience adds to the Linux knowledge base everyday. So, if you think Sun wants to kill Linux tell it to the employees with dozens of different brands of laptops using WiFi cards and numerous pieces of Intel based hardware at Sun Microsystems. Also, in case you haven't heard, Sun hired system integrator EDS to perform the Sun internal rollout. Sun calls their rollout the "Sun on Sun" initiative. The desktop is the Linux Java Desktop System. Where's the beef?Sun's beef with Red Hat resembles my beef with fire ants. Those little red ants sting and create large welts. When Sun attempted to work with Red Hat to create a desktop, Red Hat reportedly negotiated in a manner unbecoming their own size and capacity. Only the people who attended those negotiations will ever know what really happened. Those who have worked with Sun in the past recognize Sun's professionalism. Those who have worked with Red Hat know to expect a tough time. Now, add Oracle and Dell to the mix and you will find additional insult and injury as far as Sun is concerned. Oracle once regarded Sun as one of their preferred platforms for their database. Oracle changed business models and moved to Linux. To carry the analogy further, the Oracle-Dell-Red Hat partnership might feel like a cluster of red ant stings on your right foot. Sun looks at Red Hat and sees a company that needs mentoring. Instead of working with Sun, Red Hat thought they could knock off the 800 pound guerilla. So they tried. I can just imagine the thoughts that might go through the head of an executive at Sun when he reads about Red Hat buying the last of the old Netscape assets. Do you think anyone considered it a waste of $20 million? Perhaps Red Hat thinks they'll use those Netscape assets to compete with Sun's ONE solutions. When someone is self diluted, it's difficult to know what they think. Red Hat made a mistake going after Sun. Now, Sun can begin talking about how Red Hat's lawyers use trademarks the way Microsoft uses patents and copyrights. As some of us know, Red Hat has an aggressive legal department when it comes to copyrights and trademarks. Red Hat's attitude hasn't been that gracious to people looking for help in the open source community. Some of this may come back to haunt them. Working PursuitsNow, forget everything you just read. When it comes to capturing business, sales and delivery people do not want to bothered with press releases and articles by George Colony. Someone just presented me a Request for Proposal. It requires Red Hat Linux running on Sun AMD servers. It also calls for a price quote on installing the solution in 53 locations. I need a pursuit team, a project manager, professional service technicians, trainers, delivery managers, customer relations reps and a price. The customer wants to pay for a pilot. They want the pilot to last six weeks and meet five goals. That's their criteria for success. We know we can win the business and we need the six weeks to organize for the project. Do you think that any of the people charged with delivery care what executives say to the press? We do care about getting the job done. In this case, I can count on Sun to deliver the solution and provide managers and technicians. What can I count on from Red Hat? This is where Linux advocates need to get a grip. Linux loses business everyday because we lack the resources to deliver. When companies perform due diligence, they find unsatisfied customers. If you believe that IBM Global Services, HP and Novell are delivering enterprise solutions in step with demand -- think again. If you believe any Linux company is delivering desktop solutions in step with real demand -- think again. The business that Linux does win falls in our laps. Likely scenariosI don't know if I have earned the right to speculate like George Colony, but at least you will know that I am speculating. I have a theory based on a few years of work experience in investment banking as to the likely outcomes. I haven't worked as an investment advisor in over ten years, so don't take any of this as advice. I'm not licensed, seek your own advisor if you plan on using this information to make investment decisions. I'm a journalist, in this scenario. Here's my journalistic analysis of the situation. Sun's new AMD strategy should work. In fact, I believe it is working. The employees will settle down after the reorganization and they will begin to grab market share from IBM, Dell and HP. They have found good outsourcing partners. People will turn to Sun and EDS to fulfill their enterprise needs. Sun will win the web services war and become the preferred platform for things like HDTV backbone deployments. Red Hat will cease being seen as the only real Linux vendor. Red Hat will mature and begin growing consistently will their capacity to perform. They will need new business strategies and better community relations to make progress. They will struggle if they attempt to continue going after Sun customers. Red Hat is a niche player and they need to find more niches. Red Hat may not be an attractive acquisition candidate until they accumulate more tangible assets. They have cash, but it came from a bond sell - in others words, debt. They are vulnerable to Microsoft's "Get the Facts" campaign because of the "Total Cost of Ownership" issue. Red Hat's book value and revenue streams do not justify the image Red Hat executives convey to themselves and the market. Red Hat will discover that it takes more to compete with Novell and Sun than telling people to fax them a purchase order. Today, Red Hat has dubious allies in HP and Dell since those companies rely on Microsoft for their core competencies. If the people at Red Hat want out of the corner in which they have painted themselves, they need better friends. I won't speculate as to their ability to reconstruct bridges burned. |
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Comments (43)
Nope...
Untrue... Learn the Facts first
I am not affiliated with RedHat nor use that distro, I am not affiliated with Colony and probably have never read a word from him, I don't care. Although I run sparc hardware (with debian of course :), I don't like Sun BS nor Sun journalism like this. This message was edited Oct 8, 2004 7:30 PM
I don't take issue with a lot of your points as your perception is your reality.
If the best argument you can present is slinging insults, then it doesn't further the discussion.
tadelste: perhaps if you kept your focus and did not bring Rather into this discussion your arguments would appear a bit more cogent. However, your statement that RedHat could not support you well enough to support a consulting project carries weight (you made this point on another thread). Where I wonder is perhaps due to their current size and existing sales base. Meaning they cannot support all potential vendors. From what I saw over a year ago they were already busy with large, existing clients.
tadelste: No, you never point the facts, you just made opinions. Honestly nobody buys that Sun is in good shape and RedHat is the devil. Recently I received a bunch of Sun execs for my area (Central America), belive me, they are in bad bad shape. They pretend to be "Linux friendly" but their real intentions show up when Solaris and SunONE surface in the discusion table. One thing I really like about Sun is JDS and OpenOffice. Why Sun don't forget Solaris and fully support Linux?, they have the muscle (intellectually and politically) to do the right thing and after that, belive me, RedHat will be sand in the ocean, at the very very bottom of the market.
The facts in the article are verified and require no defense. Perhaps if you read the article, you would have known that. Speculation as to the forecast, are identified as such.
If we are to question facts, your list presents an interesting set of assumptions backed by only your experience and unexamined assertions.
Also, maybe you should write your own articles, read them and forget about other people's work. Ultimately that's what you're saying. And then there's your other advice. Worthless, self serving and rude.
cogent: A term used in evaluating arguments. An argument is cogent if and only if both of the following are true: The premises provide good grounds for accepting the conclusion. The premises are all either obviously true, extremely plausible, or antecedently accepted by those who take the position that is contrary to the argument's conclusion. Conventional Ethical Relativism -- A specific type of ethical relativism. It holds that the moral conventions of a culture determine what it is right and wrong for the members of that culture to do.
I think your underestimating Red hat
Red Hat Total Cash (mrq): 997.75M Market Cap (intraday): 2.48B Total Debt (mrq)²: 600.00M
Sun Total Cash (mrq): 535.00M Market Cap (intraday): 5.65B Total Debt (mrq)²: 1.60B
From this perspective Red Hat is a lot healthier and stronger than Sun. Sure Sun is bigger, but sun needs to take the bulk of the 1.6 billion from MSFT and apply it to debt.
Sun needs to clean up it's act. It can survive tech wise but it won't without proper leadership.
Red hat has owned up to it's faults and is working today to correct them. Also people keep thinking Red hat is small, but they have a billion in the bank. Sure I don't like their pricing but hey Suse is just over their waiting for me.
They used to do this lab in Psychology 101. They would bring 10 people into a room and they would face a blackboard. It had ten lines on it.
The fifth line was clearly the longer line. The Teaching assistant would ask each person which was the longer line. They would say the fourth.
Of the ten people in the room, nine were told to say the fourth. A vast portion of the time the one person who didn't know, also said fourth.
In examination, the people conducting the experiments concluded that the lone person being test actually had altered perception. Perception became a major part of my studies. The scientist who wrote about this was named Solomon Ashe and the phenomenon is referred to as social perception.
This message was edited Oct 8, 2004 12:39 PM
6.8 Billion
vs Red hat's 2.09 Billion
We won't argue the slight difference between your sun #'s and yahoo's numbers
What you are saying is though, that Sun needs all the properties and items it has bought in the past 20 years to make it look like bigger than Red Hat?
To counter that you woould pull out the cashflow where Sun is 10 times Red Hat's size. But let's look at this. Gross Profit from Sun is Roughly .08% of it's reveune, Red hat is 57%.
Sun is bigger because of it's age, not it's operations. Red hat is Growing and making money, Sun is shrinking and losing money.
If Sun can't stop it's own losses it's going to lose no matter what. Sun could play fair and compete or it can kiss MSFT and watch it's head get bitten off.
Sun is actually 47 times Red Hat's size not including iForce partners in terms of employees and facilities.
But you know, I don't want to debate that.
I'm really sad that the article did not resonate with you as a reader.
If you still believe Sun is bigger because of its age and Red Hat is growing and getting bigger while Sun is falling, you missed the point.
As a consultant, I cannot go to market with Red Hat -no matter how big the opportunity. That's what I'm trying to say - they don't have the resources to pursue opportunities. If they are growing why can't they put people on a pursuit? They don't have the bandwidth and they forgo the revenue and profit.
That's not a problem with Sun.
I'm sorry you can't see that.
The fifth line is the longest.
This message was edited Oct 8, 2004 1:36 PM
Sun a 40 year old middle weight champion, after years of not having a good challenger , Flabby and soft, but still has a head full of experience
Red Hat a 20 year old in almost peak condition but doesn't have any experience and still needs a couple more years of training .
This match will go to Sun, Simply because they have the experience.
When Red Hat starts to get more and more experience under their belt Sun will really feel it.
You are also forgetting Novell, Novell once they get under way already has the experience, but needs to begin to proprogate through out Suse.
Sun can make an amazing comeback, They have the talent, the experience, and can regain the bulk of their strength. They can not due this by being wishy-washy. If Sun is so open source why did they leave Open office out to dry? If/When Solaris is Open Sourced expect a MSFT shared source style license. Why because Sun doesn't really know what it wants. Does it have to be GPL, NO but I expect all changes to Solaris will have to be approved by Sun.
Who told you the fifth line is the longest? Maybe it was the 6th. Are you sure the 5th line is the longest, did you bother to measure it, or are you just trying to be different.
I know what I wrote because I did my homework - something still consider a craft by some members of the profession.
It's also not done very often today. For that you should be congradulated.
I see Sun differently though. I see they have potential, but they don't see it. Their management says one thing, and then says a contradictory statement . Sun wants it both the new and old ways, They hav e to choose which way to go.
If Sun was truely Serious about Open Source why ar e they open sourcing Solaris, a product from which they make money, and wish to keep closed Java, a product for which they don't have a good financial ROI. Java is a staple of the community and does give back to Sun in other less tangible methods. It doesn't have to be GPL per se just a GPL like license in which all changes must be puhed back to the community, with a non-profit funded by Sun, and other businesses to set the actual Java standard.
Sun could be the biggest Linux company. Sun could create their own Distro and go head to head with Red hat and Suse. Instead Sun creates an interface, and puts Suse or Red hat, or even Solaris underneath it.
So how is Sun going to be the biggest Linux company when Sun doesn't even have it's Linux distro. Like IBM Sun is using anotehr Distro for their work. Unlike IBM Sun doesn't have anything else to fall back on. IBM isn't betting their future on Linux, IBM is using Linux to enhance their future. All Sun is doing is fighting change.
[url=http://news.com.com/Sun releases Solaris-based desktop software/2100-1016_3-5408544.html]http://news.com.com/Sun releases Solaris-based desktop softw...[/url]
It's not out of date. R3 for Linux is due out around March. You can get many of the updated components off of the http://jdshelp.org site. We even have the 2.6.8 kernel up, samba 3.0x, etc.
You also won't see that much change in the distribution. Instead of SLES 8 as the underbelly - it's SLES 9.
Also, I don't know where you bought the book, but you can get your money back from Amazon maybe someone else.
I wanted to create a product that was self contained. So the book and CD Rom became important components of that product. Someone can pick up the book, run the live CD and learn Linux by following the the written material. They don't have the risk on installing Linux. They can work on almost any computer regard less of what's on the hard drive, etc.
Also, the next edition of JDS will be very similar to the current one with the edition of lots of hardware drivers and more suitable for Laptops.
A lot of people have continued to use JDS 2003 and decided not to upgrade. That's not uncommon in companies.
I had many of the same considerations you expressed until I began working directly with the team last December. And my co-author, Sam Hiser, has a two year history with Sun because he was the marketing lead for openoffice.org.
When we began writing Exploring the JDS Linux Desktop, we just wanted to upload it to Consultingtimes.com and let people have it. But, O'Reilly wanted the book and many people at Sun wanted to see it released by a publisher with wide distribution capabilities.
http://jdshelp.org has worked to help Sun meet customer satisfaction expectations. The site was an after thought which filled an important need. When we launched it, we thought maybe Sun would be mad about it. But they were just the opposite. They welcomed it.
OpenSolaris will begin sometimes at the end of the year after Solaris 10 becomes available. The community relations manager said they have not settled on a license yet. But, Solaris will be open sourced - at least a version of it will be open sourced.
Sun does have their own distribution of Linux. However, they started with the idea of using Red Hat as the original distribution under the desktop. When Red Hat became too difficult, they went with SuSE. Then IBM got worried about the Sun/SuSE relationship and engineered the Novell purchase. That created some problems since SuSE had contractual relations with Sun and others.
Also, the Chinese distribution isn't SuSE. So, the behind the scenes manuvering of IBM cost SuSE. That's 1 million copies now OEM'd to a Chinese company.
The total rollout in China is 200 million units. Sun will act as an advisor for the final rollout and 12 Chinese companies will deploy Linux.
I was an IBM Influencer partner for two years. I sold the first application to go on a mainframe to Winnebago Industries and it got IBM's Linux initiative off the ground. As far as I know, during the two years of 2000-2002, I was the only IBM Linux Influencer Partner. IBM assigned resources to me and we got rewarded.
Many companies have influencer partners. The arrangements vary from company to company but they boil down to receiving a commission on sales that someone influences. In my position with IBM, I learned so much about them and their initiatives.
Today, I don't have an influencer position with anyone. I need to remain independent. That takes me a little further away from the decision makers but I don't mind that. I wasn't thrilled to hear the things I did at IBM. As a result of that, I have zero respect for IBM. You think Microsoft is a predator. You ain't seen a predator if you think Microsoft is the king of that jungle. They learned their lessons from the real king of the jungle. (I'm using metaphors on purpose - I hope you can read between the lines.)
Knowing what I do about IBM, I would recommend to the world that Java stay proprietary. If not, say hello to .Net as the only technology for web services. This is one of those areas where you have to read another article I wrote called How to Misunderstand Sun's Desktop Strategy. http://www.consultingtimes.com/javadesktop.html
That's a long article, but it explains Microsoft's strategy for ending Linux and everything else. The only company standing in the way right now is Sun. Don't forget, IBM is one of Microsoft's biggest vendors.
Now, regarding the executives at Sun, I want to say something in their defense. Have you noticed how the open source community has shifted it's hatred for Microsoft to SCO and Sun? How do you think Microsoft pulled that off?
If you doubt that Microsoft controls the media, I wish you would reconsider than. I was contracted to write a special section for Forbes on Open Source. The constraints had much to do with Microsoft. Imagine what it might be like to have to write so that you don't offend a magazines' largest advertiser.
Take that and multiply it by every major media group in North America.
Microsoft has managed to turn our attention away from them and on to others.
I also know of instances where Jonathan Schwartz and Scott McNeally were purposely quoted out of context. They said one thing and the next thing you know, it's printed as a sound byte in a body of a paragraph totally unrelated to its original context.
All I can say about this Sun's execs is they are learning. Also, they are good people and have good intentions. If you were in their shoes, knew what they know about Red Hat's operations to take over UNIX and forget Microsoft - you might be a little displeased.
Solaris allows Sun to compete with Red Hat in the data center. That's the only place Red Hat competes with Sun. Other than that, Sun's competitor on the desktop is Microsoft.
I hope that makes sense.
I know several people who work for them. IBM is in Linux for the money. IBM from what I can tell sees Linux as a means to something else. Not sure exactly what and though curious all I can do is look for more. As for Windows, IBM installs what people ask them to. Why doesn't IBM offer the choice though, well they aren't ready for it is all i can guess. Linux isn't ready for everybody yet(then again neither is windows) IBM is a big company with it's hands in everything. IBM also only Open Source's software that it really can't make money off of. Is IBM Altruistic? Well that depends on how many eyes you have open.
As for SCO well SCO had a very vocal anti-Linux, Linux is stolen, you can't fix it attitude. That sort of arrogance doesn't go over well. It's what propelled SCO to the top of the bashing list. Sun's attitude toward Open Source is wishy-washy and the community in general has a resentment toward that. I also think there is another resentment in the community about Sun in general. Not sure why but I have seen it.
Sun folded to MSFT & Kodak. Sure lawsuits are expensive, and Sun had already lost to Kodak, and what did Sun's management say? We will vigorously defend Java(not word for word) What happened a week later, Sun payed Kodak $92 million. Now Kodak can sue every other group that produces a JVM and others. Sun just allowed Kodak to kill Classpath, DotGNU, and Mono. Some friend of Open Source. Kodak is evil for bringing this patent out, but Kodak isn't a software company. If Sun is such a friend to the Open Source community why did it decide to become partner's with MSFT. I can see why they stopped fighting(lawsuits are expensive), but why partner's. Even MSFT doesn't see a future for Solaris. In a year I would be willing to bet Sun has either broken off with MSFT or working on .NET for JDS. That is the price you pay for partnering with the Devil.
If Sun is are being quoted out of context, then Sun should be very vocal about that. As for attacks on writers well that's part of the problem with writing to a mass audience that can reply. Most can't be civil about it. As I have said I don't agree, all I can do is try to understand your side, and see if you can do the same to mine. I think your winning in the bulk of this thread. Most people are not capable of this unless they are face to face. Some aren't even then.
Forbes is biased against anyone with less than a billion in their personal bank account. Since MSFT has more billions than Sun, MSFT is better. Daniel Lyons a Forbes author is nicknamed Lyings in certain circles for his biases. As for the other media, if you look the bulk of media only reprint PR. They don't dig for facts. With groups like Yankee and Gartner, who are supposed to be independent MSFT doesn't need to control the media to manipulate it. MSFT has set themselves up a circle of friends that were/are respected. If the media bounce between those circle points with out checking facts then it's very easy to manipulate the media. It took a year before the Media started realizing that SCO was full of hot air, and are more careful what is said by SCO now.
>What I don't understand is how is Java safe from IBM if it's proprietary?<
IBM has already attempted to highjack the java programming language and the community process. Java has a community and that controls the java programmng language. It's called the Java Community Process.
Microsoft highjacked Java and calls it .NET. IBM started its own tool process and began Eclipse basically bolting from all the other firms cooperating together.
IBM has shown itself to be a devoted confiscator of technology. I feel safer knowing Java is in the hands of people who wouldn't branch it off. I also have had dealings with the person at IBM who would branch it. I consider him one of the most ruthless people in technology.
Another thing, IBM has ported the Lotus client and productivity products to UNIX and some technicians have ported those to Linux going back to 1999. So, why did the AIX version of Lotus notes client get put on some Linux engineers laptops at IBM and then kept from the public? IBM has its own turf war going on and people who want to support the desktop get fired if they try to do something. I have seen it.
>Sun folded to MSFT & Kodak. Sure lawsuits are expensive, and Sun had already lost to Kodak, and what did Sun's management say?<
Let's see, when did Sun fold to Microsoft? I believe they won the trials. If you mean Bill's love in press conference then folding means jumping through hoops on McNealy's part. He did have to cross over the line to get his 2 billion.
All I can say is that Sun got into operational problems because Scott had to be pulled kicking and screaming through the layoffs of employees. So, I fault him for not making cuts earlier and second for being in a hurry to get the Microsoft litigation behind him. I've been in litigation a few times and I know that I wanted to get out of it. If you haven't been through it, it's a terrible time.
As far as Kodak -- Sun has protected their licensees. If you're saying that Sun has a responsibility to non licensed offshoots of Java then that's a stretch. And, I am not a fan by any stretch of the imagination of Mono.
>If Sun is are being quoted out of context, then Sun should be very vocal about that.<
Not every one on this planet believes that being vocal is the best course of action. Better strategies exist. I've been in business a long time and have run several companies. One of the things they don't teach people at Harvard Business School is an interesting axion: What you resist persists.
Interesting take. Red Hat was the target. Interesting that I didn't consider them a target. In fact, I don't recall targeting anybody.
Sometimes people appreciate having a context or perspective. Here's the persepctive: Sun has 32,600 employees Red Hat has 700. Sun has billions in revenues and Red Hat has 100 million.
If you want to do a pursuit for a project, Sun has the resources, Red Hat is stretched.
I'm not promoting Sun and doubt that anything I might write, say or do would promote them.
That said, I read so many thoughtless, unresearched, venemous statements within the open source community, perhaps gaining perspective is useful. If I have something of value to offer then it must be useful which means to serve the purpose of another.
Does it serve the purpose of this crowd to say - here's a different perspective?
Here's another thought for you to consider. I chose RHEL 3.0 AS for the JDShelp.org community website.
I just sent a version to one of the JDShelp developers to use for building rpms.
I think this whole Sun thing is part of Microsoft's strategy to make open source people stop hating them.
If Microsoft can divert the attention of the community to SCO and then Sun, it's hard to have a single minded focus on the real villain. What's changed about Microsoft that people have started laying off them and going after Sun?
I even think SCO is a useless distraction.
For me, the target remains Microsoft.
I found and read your comments in "The Real Sun vs. Red Hat Story", but that writeup was new to me and it was not the instigator of my semi-snide remark. Just too busy at the moment to pursue it, sorry.
Let me say, while I have not directly worked with Red Hat I have indirectly seen them in action at a large client. Sometimes it makes more sense to grow the business more slowly so that a high degree quality service to your clientele is assured. This may be what Red Hat is doing even if it must fore go potential business.
I suppose its Sun's target too... but as a partner, not as competitor. Microsoft and Sun are working on deep integration plans... plans ... and I quote "Red Hat will not have this" level of integration between Solaris (and anything else Sun may claim ownership over) and Microsoft protocols. This is more of a focus than JDS at the moment. It is considered strategic whereas the JDS is merely leverage.
The goal is the elimination of Samba (and Red Hat, etc), however, as Sun puts it, the community as a whole "will not have this" technology... ONLY Sun. Also... and this one will kill Sun in the end, Microsoft and Sun will work on bridging technologies between .NET and Java. This plays right into the hands of what Microsoft is wanting ultimately out of this relationship, the elimination of Java and eventually Sun (Solaris, Unix-Linux and whatever else Sun might have). Sun believes that they have the winning hand (Sun only deals in win-lose deals)... but Microsoft is not a friend, no matter how much they say they are (Microsoft also only deals in win-lose deals). A battle of egos. Pride will be Sun's downfall.
You may feel free to counter any of this... but I have more than enough evidence to back up what I've stated here. The Real Sun vs. Red Hat Story needs to be put aside... it's a "story"... Sun has a much bigger agenda, JDS is merely one element (JDS on Solaris of course, vs. the now obsolete JDS on Linux).
That's fine. The issue is not Red Hat's business plan. The issue is that people are shooting at the wrong target. And, people would do anything to be right including make up stories and claim to have evidence they don't have.
I will share one thing and that has to do with the suggestion above that Sun and Microsoft are trying to kill samba. That's totally unfounded.
I've been facilitating a large JDS conversion with a US Fortune 100. The two unmet requirements are compatibility with Exchange and JES and mutual authentication on JES Identity server and Active Directory. Those happen to be the the development currently under the JV agreement.
The other item (and this is more of a hope than anything else) is incorporating drivers and the WMP codec so we can play DVD Roms.
That's the scope of the cooperation.
Finally, Sun has not left openoffice.org out in the cold. That's a subject resolved long ago.
Time will take care of this issue and things will get back to normal.
It's a Round World, and Sun Wishes it was Flat
I read George's editorial in the comment section of ZDNet U.K. -- not what I think most people would consider a serious section of the ZDNet universe.
Oooh! Temper, temper.
If Sun Microsystems intends to kill Linux, then why are they installing it internally? Why have they continued their relationship with Novell SUSE by building beta releases of the next Java Desktop System with GNU/Linux? Why does a separate business unit for Linux exist at Sun?
Because not even Sun has the confidence that Solaris will be the end-to-end OS that they want it to be. They also need a back-up plan if their plans fail, as they have so often with any new desktop strategy. Fills you with confidence, doesn't it?
The vetting seems to have no authority other than Colony, the CEO of Forrester. It did create quite a controversy in the ranks of the open source world. It sounded convincing.
Since Sun is an extremely schizophrenic company these days, all people have is plausible speculation about what Sun will do:
"I guess I did a miserably poor job of communicating with George Colony."
There's an admission from Schwartz right there.
Sun has the ability to go through their restructuring in a more graceful manner than IBM. Sun's CEO and new executive team do not follow the slash and burn techniques of other companies. They put their customers first.
IBM was in serious trouble, and could have went under. Lou Gerstner put in a lot of hard work, didn't mouth off to the press and turned things around with a clear strategy. Sun, McNealy and Schwartz have had no such experience, and worryingly, they just don't comprehend the commodity market that Sun are now in - like it or not.
Something else might help Linux advocates get a sense of Sun Microsystems. They are performing the largest Linux desktop rollout in US history. That's correct, Sun Microsystems is rolling out Linux internally. They are their own customer.
They also rolled out Network Computers and Java Stations, and look how that turned out.
Their experience adds to the Linux knowledge base everyday. So, if you think Sun wants to kill Linux tell it to the employees with dozens of different brands of laptops using WiFi cards and numerous pieces of Intel based hardware at Sun Microsystems.
Because Solaris currently cannot do any of that as an OS on commodity hardware in the same way that Linux can, all Solaris is to Sun is an overhead they'll have to carry the burden for themselves.
Also, in case you haven't heard, Sun hired system integrator EDS to perform the Sun internal rollout. Sun calls their rollout the "Sun on Sun" initiative. The desktop is the Linux Java Desktop System.
Holy ****, I didn't know that! Anyone who has had experience of EDS' handywork, especially in the UK within public services, will know that this project is doomed to failure before it starts.
If Sun cannot rollout their own software and product within their own organisation, what on Earth does that say? It says that Sun haven't got the faintest idea what they're doing with their own software. Do Novell need third-party providers? No. They're rolling out based on the new open source experience they have and the established experience within the company.
Those who have worked with Sun in the past recognize Sun's professionalism.
That's a matter of opinion, especially those dumped with Cobalt.
Sun looks at Red Hat and sees a company that needs mentoring. Instead of working with Sun, Red Hat thought they could knock off the 800 pound guerilla. So they tried.
Based on Sun's bottom line, they're succeeding. Who is Sun to believe that they should be mentoring Red Hat?
Red Hat's attitude hasn't been that gracious to people looking for help in the open source community. Some of this may come back to haunt them.
So Red Hat aren't 100% saints then? Wow.
Red Hat are heavily involved in the open source community, especially with such efforts as Freedesktop. Part of this is an IPC messaging system called D-BUS which is simple to use. Sun and Java over the years have been heavily taken to the cleaners by Microsoft, COM and DCOM because they just cannot comprehend that CORBA is a solution that is too complex and takes far too long to get anything simple up and running. This is a classic case of Sun's stupid over-engineering. There is a good possibility that this system will become a large part of Gnome, the open source desktop environment Sun's JDS is based on. If they resist this then Sun may eventually end up being marginalised and supporting a fork of a free and open source desktop internally that will increasingly become more disconnected from the community.
Sun and open source? Don't make anyone laugh.
We do care about getting the job done. In this case, I can count on Sun to deliver the solution and provide managers and technicians.
Many projects are split up into manageable chunks. It is just too expensive to do things in one go and have several dozen hangers-on involved on a project. That's the reality people are finding out about now.
Do you think that any of the people charged with delivery care what executives say to the press?
Yes. If they are lambasting the competition so much, you have to wonder what the competition is like.
This is where Linux advocates need to get a grip. Linux loses business everyday because we lack the resources to deliver. When companies perform due diligence, they find unsatisfied customers.
I think you need to get a grip on where companies like Sun lose money to Linux. Sun is now a niche-player, going ever higher at the high-end. Linux companies can quite easily provide what is necessary at the low-end and in the middle. Worryingly for Sun, the high-end business they thought they had is being sucked up into the medium and low-end sectors. That's the commodity market Sun are now a part of, as much as they like to pretend that they're not. This is the single biggest reason why Sun are in trouble, and unless they realise and understand it they will sink on the spot where they're currently just about treading water.
The business that Linux does win falls in our laps.
Precisely why Sun is being killed. Linux companies win the business that falls into their laps, which is mass market demand.
They have found good outsourcing partners. People will turn to Sun and EDS to fulfil their enterprise needs. Sun will win the web services war and become the preferred platform for things like HDTV backbone deployments.
Based on what? If Sun need EDS to implement their own products internally, then they have no direction for them.
Red Hat is a niche player and they need to find more niches.
A very, very, very bad misunderstanding of the situation. If this is what Sun thinks, then they're going to drown very quickly.
It is Sun who are the niche players here, at the high-end of computing. Red Hat are able to provide low end and medium sized solutions without the incredible amount of overhead Sun thinks that it needs on a project. That's where the vast majority of business is these days, that's where the future expansion is and Sun just isn't a part of it. If Sun try to turn the low-end and medium sized business into the high-end revenue they're used to, as they have always done, then they are a very dead company.
They are vulnerable to Microsoft's "Get the Facts" campaign because of the "Total Cost of Ownership" issue.
Oh, the mythical Total Cost of Ownership issue. The Get the Facts campaign is obviously having a major effect. The Total Cost of Ownership doesn't mean anything, and hasn't worked for the past few years since it was brought up simply because no one understands it. People look at what they need more and pick the cheaper and more flexible option rather than the over-engineered and expensive stuff they've found they can live without. That's exactly what businesses and enterprises understand.
Red Hat's book value and revenue streams do not justify the image Red Hat executives convey to themselves and the market.
Throw your toys out of the pram if you want to. It doesn't alter the current situation, and the reality is going to be that companies like Sun are going to have to accept the nature of the market and reduced revenue streams or die.
Red Hat will discover that it takes more to compete with Novell and Sun than telling people to fax them a purchase order.
I'm afraid that's what businesses want. Rather than paying a huge amount of money and having ten dozen Sun engineers and hangers-on trudging around on their project for a ridiculously over-engineered solution, they can simply look at what they need and split a project into manageable chucks. They can then simply fax a purchase order (laughing out loud here) to Red Hat and get it done. That's the way other industries in the world work today and that's the mass commodity market. Either Sun understands it or it's already a corpse. Crying about it isn't going to make a difference, and when you look at how the consumer world and other service industries work today it is just incredible that they (and you) don't understand that.
Today, Red Hat has dubious allies in HP and Dell since those companies rely on Microsoft for their core competencies. If the people at Red Hat want out of the corner in which they have painted themselves, they need better friends.
Oooh, let's see if we can destabilise the relationships that Red Hat has with other companies and their partners and see if they buckle. That's pretty desperate to be honest, as is everything in this article. A good rule of thumb is that if a company starts thrashing around and lashing out at others, it's in its death throes. This message was edited Oct 8, 2004 2:39 PM
I agree with you totally. I have nothing more to add to the thread other than I am totally amused.
I was told by a very savvy individual that this same company would never break away from MS's Windows or Sun on UNIX. While the latter may still be true, the former was happening with increasing rapidity prior to my leaving.
Which Sun?
The FOSS friendlies appear to have so far kept the expediency crowd from shooting themselves in the foot (or head, have it your way), but Microsoft would love to see their moderating influence end, for at least three big reasons and many small: to watch a competitor in the server software market self-destruct, to rob the wind from Java's sails (in principle to make more market space for dotNyet), and to obliterate OpenOffice (and, secondarily, StarOffice - to stop the downhill slide of MS-Office's market share).
This is worrisome when you look at the reasons for Sun chumming up to Microsoft and vice versa. Sun hopes to stay alive through dire financial straits and will hang off Microsoft's arm if that's what it takes (but they haven't had the wedding night yet); Microsoft has zero obvious positive reasons for smooching with Sun, and many obvious hostile reasons.
Happily for ABM (Anything But Microsoft), Sun's demise won't kill OpenOffice - apart from the GPL behind it, many big contributors including arch-enemy IBM are now pumping resources into improving OO - and there are several competitors flourishing in its shadow (e.g. have you use KOffice recently?). Nor will it kill Java (not with IBM and others pushing it big time). However the industry in general will be a poorer place for Sun's absence, current chronic MPD notwithstanding.
Feedback Topics / Interactive News Site
Another interesting aspect of writing article on sites that comment, I may see as many as 60 comments (and many of those are redundant) and I'll see 20,000 or so reads. What do those 19,940 or so readers think? I'll never know.
For those who have commented, keep in mind we live and work in the same community. So, no matter what you write, that doesn't sour me. I've been doing this for a few years and I've seen some great comments and some of the rudest remarks imaginable. Still, I'd rather people make mean, horrible remarks than none at all.
I will use the comments here in a white paper I'm writing for one of the companies mentioned in the article. I'll use some comments from other articles also. I don't believe either company understands how the community regards them. People don't understand why I write about Linux and why I have written so much. One benefit for us all comes out of the bottom up information I see. As you would say, the executives and employees just haven't got a clue what people think. And they don't know why their products sell or don't sell. And they don't know why people think they're nuts or sane or arrogant or what.
This is personal and it's not. It's up close and personal but I'm not offended. A rational person cannot take any of this personally because people do not know you. Just because someone believes something about someone else doesn't make it true. The only person that gets to go where I go is me. I take myself with me everywhere I go. And I know what I know and haven't a clue what I don't know. (As Plato wrote).
So when you ask me to defend myself and/or a position and I don't - you should not take that personally, either. I'm not ignoring you, I'm just not compelled to defend myself because you say I should. If I make a point and you counter it, so be it. Also, those who criticize my writing style or the way I make my arguments - thank you. But remember, I have veteran editors critique my work on a weekly and sometimes daily basis. I majored in writing as an undergrad and I've been writing for a couple of decades. I know the craft. It may not fit your sense of logic, but that doesn't mean much to me. George Colony is one of the finest writers I have ever seen. His technique is impeccable. His manner of writing doesn't get in the way at all. I still took issue with what he wrote.
With regard to writing articles to sell books, that's a lame comment. Guess what, I write books and they still sell after 20 years. One of my books is a collectors item on Amazon and sells for $195 a copy. So what. Take that and two dollars and we can get a tall coffee at Starbucks. If anyone wants to write a book, I'd be happy to support them. Just know that it's blood, sweat and tears and technical books sales rarely, if ever cover their advances. If you don't know that and you're the editor of a news site at Internet.com, then you should read Doc Searls "Clue Train Manifesto". Because, you ain't on the clue train.
I'm pleased that I live and write in a time where we have the Internet and the Web. We're so lucky because it doesn't matter how far away we might be phsically; we can communicate and work and do things that people have never been able to do before -- at least in written history on this planet. This is a great thing and I'm thankful for it. I'm also thankful for Dave because he's made this exchange possible. Of all the Linux sites on the web, I really like this one the best - and I'm not marginalizing any other. I just like the way we can interact. Besides, the people that congregate at Lxer are really great people.
Now, we can see what kind of trouble this post stirs up. Ladies and gentlemen, have at it!
This message was edited Oct 9, 2004 8:59 PM
This message was edited Oct 10, 2004 9:06 PM This message was edited Oct 10, 2004 9:12 PM
Remember not everyone has the same opinion. Each person's opinion has value. You are going to argue, and disagree. If you can not change the other person's mind let it go. It' not worth an endless arguement.
I don't agree with tadelste on the future of Sun vs Red Hat, though the fight today he is correct on. We shall see were tomorrow goes.
Solairs really perfoms on x86
This is all very interesting reading and one of the topics mentioned something about "Solaris performance on x86 is bad". They probably haven't looked at Solaris Express recently which ships as Solaris 10. The performance on x86, specially Opterons based machines really rocks. More details are available on my blog http://blogs.sun.com/sunay . I will try to keep it updated with more information about Solaris 10 networking in general so come back often.
Regards
ps: there are already some flames on osnews http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=8571
and i want to be a little bad penguin : why not comparing it with gentoo with full optimisations ?
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1. GNU/Linux hurts corporate IP (anything GPL hurts corporate IP).
2. Linux is Unix, so use Solaris, it's "open source" and much more mature.
3. JDS is called JDS because it will ALL (hello, Tom... earth to Tom) move to being on top of Solaris.
A longer treatise is in the DFWUUG discussion list. I really don't know where you are getting your information from Tom...