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I'm Ready To Pick a Fight
I make it a habit not to discuss politics with my friends. It has occurred to me that talking politics is a good way to make your friends your ex-friends…so I wisely abstain. Now, lets take this a step further and talk about the “politics” of operating systems…and sorry Mac users, you are relegated to refereeing this match. Don’t blame me for this, your marketing sucks. At least Linux hasn’t really begun to market. When we fail, then you can wag your fingers at us and say “See, just ain’t as easy as it seems, is it?” |
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Comments (43)
Good plan
NoDough,
It seems you have read the entire article out of context.
For instance, "Having the best product does not defeat a better marketing plan. Can you say Macintosh?"
That states to me that a mac is a superior product to Windows and Linux....which most people would agree. However, the author argues that macs don't have a marketing plan...which is also true.
It's also evident that the author is paying for radio spots to advertise Linux. That to me is NOT alienating anyone who likes the penguin.
Perhaps you should read it again?
It seems you have read the entire article out of context.
For instance, "Having the best product does not defeat a better marketing plan. Can you say Macintosh?"
That states to me that a mac is a superior product to Windows and Linux....which most people would agree. However, the author argues that macs don't have a marketing plan...which is also true.
It's also evident that the author is paying for radio spots to advertise Linux. That to me is NOT alienating anyone who likes the penguin.
Perhaps you should read it again?
I didn't see that it was really alienating anyone either ... I think the main point was that Linux needs to be marketed in a better way.
Though I admire helios' spirit and am not offended by his assertions, MS will not be taken by a full force frontal assault. Think of our experiences in South East Asia when the misapplication of pre WWII experience confused a undefended, liberal republic sold off to placate an aggressive tyrant was confused with a portion of a former French colony run by a narrow clique enforced by an unenlightened military against a national hero, who threw the French out. We picked the wrong side and the long slog with continual casualties with mostly a string of military successes for our side still lost us the war. We were also there to stop China's expansionist tendencies. But a reading of history would have shown as later events did this was a fallacious concept to build policy. That is, Viet Nam had a thousand year history of conflict with China, hence, if you wished to contain China a strong Viet Nam made sense. As to the later historical experience, the North took out the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia and later had a very nasty border war with China. To this day, discussion about that period is not encouraged and there are strong hints that China had the higher casualty count.
So too will MS be cut down to size, but they need not vanish, they need only to combine some real product innovation into their product mix if they are to survive the long term continual assualt. You cannot out advertise or market them in the conventional sense. It is by being different and being spread by mostly trusted individual encouraging friends to try Linux. At this moment the desktop is not easily taken by Linux, however, many of us do quite well with the tools now available and those numbers will continue to grow. Linux need not be a homogeneous massive entity to win. Moreover, it need not gain the majority of the "market" to succeed. it needs only to become a significant minority whose strong features are noted and whose numbers supply the incentive for some manufacturers to supply the market needs. It's a time for continued efforts by as many as can help by the means best suited to those individuals.
Helios may sound too doctrinaire to many, but in private communications I know him to be a much more open individual. He has reasons to be irratated, but in his writing he comes across more uncompromising than he really is. Give him some slack and let's keep the criticism both civil and focused on the flaws in his arguements. I think he is as much looking for feedback and suggestions despite seeming to only be pushing a plan he has in operation.
So too will MS be cut down to size, but they need not vanish, they need only to combine some real product innovation into their product mix if they are to survive the long term continual assualt. You cannot out advertise or market them in the conventional sense. It is by being different and being spread by mostly trusted individual encouraging friends to try Linux. At this moment the desktop is not easily taken by Linux, however, many of us do quite well with the tools now available and those numbers will continue to grow. Linux need not be a homogeneous massive entity to win. Moreover, it need not gain the majority of the "market" to succeed. it needs only to become a significant minority whose strong features are noted and whose numbers supply the incentive for some manufacturers to supply the market needs. It's a time for continued efforts by as many as can help by the means best suited to those individuals.
Helios may sound too doctrinaire to many, but in private communications I know him to be a much more open individual. He has reasons to be irratated, but in his writing he comes across more uncompromising than he really is. Give him some slack and let's keep the criticism both civil and focused on the flaws in his arguements. I think he is as much looking for feedback and suggestions despite seeming to only be pushing a plan he has in operation.
Actually i agree with just about everything in Helios article, just not where it will lead to.
I believe in my heart of hearts that true "Desktop Linux" acceptance will never happen simply due to the overwhelming choice of distros. And the only way to solve that little problem is to remove choice or hope and pray that one linux distro would shine through like a diamond in the rough and win the hearts and minds of Joe Blog if either of the events ever occur then i will probably have won the national lottery as well :)
But in all events i will continue to use Slackware and PcLinuxOs as they are my favourites and i like choice even though i know it will prevent mainstream desktop linux ever happening.
Then again i could be wrong which would also not be a suprise either :)
I believe in my heart of hearts that true "Desktop Linux" acceptance will never happen simply due to the overwhelming choice of distros. And the only way to solve that little problem is to remove choice or hope and pray that one linux distro would shine through like a diamond in the rough and win the hearts and minds of Joe Blog if either of the events ever occur then i will probably have won the national lottery as well :)
But in all events i will continue to use Slackware and PcLinuxOs as they are my favourites and i like choice even though i know it will prevent mainstream desktop linux ever happening.
Then again i could be wrong which would also not be a suprise either :)
TxtEdMacs - Now you have gone and done it...I was on the fast-track to "friggin' Jerkdom", and you went and told people how I really am. All that effort, the pain...the pain. LOL
The truth be told...or at least my perception of the truth? (Truth IS...it is not perceived helios). Excuse me while my voices argue...The way I see it is that if Linux is to gain any market share, then someone has to shake it up a bit. However, several points made in the above replies are not only valid, they are painfully true. My long-held point is also stated by Koriel in that too many distros spoil the marketing. When you have to explain your product instead of promote it, you are going to lose the attention of the consumer immediately. Try explaining to someone completely new to Linux as to why there are hundreds of Linux "Flavors" to choose from...and do it coherently in 30-60 seconds. See? But neither am I open to the alternative. Again, who is going to tell all but a couple of distributions to just go away...and if they did, their loyal users would not. I am going to marshall my resources, as meager as they are in the scope of things, and find a way to make Linux known. I neither have delusions of grandeure or a self-defeating personality...I simply believe that Linux is a superior alternative to Microsoft Windows, not only physically but philosohically. As well, I would not particularly gain any pleasure from the downfall of MS even if Linux was capable of inflicting such damage. People who work for MS have families and hopes and dreams too and I wish them no harm or misfortune. Now what I say next will more than likely hack some people off in a major way. Some of the people involved at the higher levels of the Linux rank structure may be more of a hindrance than an help. I have an email from someone who we would all recognize, telling me that I should shut down Lobby4Linux.com. That our efforts at L4L will do nothing but harm Linux and that any developer who worked with us "could face sanctions". I will reveal this person in time...I must first make sure of the email's authenticity first and I will do so via friends at time-warner and a phone conversation with the individual himself. Trust me, when I decide I can with confidence, release the entire email with the author's identity...Sh** IS going to hit the fan in the Land of Linux. He believes that Linux should stay where it is now and he also believes that the amazing improvements in Linux within the past two years are bad...should have never been improved to this point. See, "Linux was not developed for the masses."
Huh?
See, I do know how to make a new paragraph sometimes. All of that to say simply...I don't know what to do, but I do know something should and probably must be done to aid in the proliferation of Linux. It is just too good of a thing not to grow and be used. So, I will thrash on this keyboard until my fingers fall off, I will talk to schools, businesses and organizations; demonstrating Linux every chance I get in hope of gaining converts...and you know what? I would be just pinkled tink to have some help.
The truth be told...or at least my perception of the truth? (Truth IS...it is not perceived helios). Excuse me while my voices argue...The way I see it is that if Linux is to gain any market share, then someone has to shake it up a bit. However, several points made in the above replies are not only valid, they are painfully true. My long-held point is also stated by Koriel in that too many distros spoil the marketing. When you have to explain your product instead of promote it, you are going to lose the attention of the consumer immediately. Try explaining to someone completely new to Linux as to why there are hundreds of Linux "Flavors" to choose from...and do it coherently in 30-60 seconds. See? But neither am I open to the alternative. Again, who is going to tell all but a couple of distributions to just go away...and if they did, their loyal users would not. I am going to marshall my resources, as meager as they are in the scope of things, and find a way to make Linux known. I neither have delusions of grandeure or a self-defeating personality...I simply believe that Linux is a superior alternative to Microsoft Windows, not only physically but philosohically. As well, I would not particularly gain any pleasure from the downfall of MS even if Linux was capable of inflicting such damage. People who work for MS have families and hopes and dreams too and I wish them no harm or misfortune. Now what I say next will more than likely hack some people off in a major way. Some of the people involved at the higher levels of the Linux rank structure may be more of a hindrance than an help. I have an email from someone who we would all recognize, telling me that I should shut down Lobby4Linux.com. That our efforts at L4L will do nothing but harm Linux and that any developer who worked with us "could face sanctions". I will reveal this person in time...I must first make sure of the email's authenticity first and I will do so via friends at time-warner and a phone conversation with the individual himself. Trust me, when I decide I can with confidence, release the entire email with the author's identity...Sh** IS going to hit the fan in the Land of Linux. He believes that Linux should stay where it is now and he also believes that the amazing improvements in Linux within the past two years are bad...should have never been improved to this point. See, "Linux was not developed for the masses."
Huh?
See, I do know how to make a new paragraph sometimes. All of that to say simply...I don't know what to do, but I do know something should and probably must be done to aid in the proliferation of Linux. It is just too good of a thing not to grow and be used. So, I will thrash on this keyboard until my fingers fall off, I will talk to schools, businesses and organizations; demonstrating Linux every chance I get in hope of gaining converts...and you know what? I would be just pinkled tink to have some help.
There may be 400 + distros but in reality most are either not going anywhere or are designed for such a niche audience as to be effectively meaningless when viewed against the Suse's and Mandriva's.
Some are inactive, some never got past the first release.
This isn't as much a hindrance as some would have you believe. It's being used as an excuse to not be bothered to even try.
As has been said elsewhere, when you learned to drive, did you look at the amount of car manufacturers and say "no, too many, I'll not bother"? In OS land we are just coming out of the Model T Ford period. "You can have any car you like as long as it's a black model T Ford." "You can have any OS you like as long as it's Windows." Look where we are now with cars. What variety! This isn't a water tight analogy, just an example.
As has been said elsewhere, when you learned to drive, did you look at the amount of car manufacturers and say "no, too many, I'll not bother"? In OS land we are just coming out of the Model T Ford period. "You can have any car you like as long as it's a black model T Ford." "You can have any OS you like as long as it's Windows." Look where we are now with cars. What variety! This isn't a water tight analogy, just an example.
salparadise: Actually, your analogy is very good. There are thousands of different car brands out there. The only things in common with all those cars are the driving commands (steering wheels, pedals, etc...) and the fact that they have wheels. For the rest, they are all different:
- automatic vs. manual vs. semi-manual gear box. And even among manual gear boxes, I know of at least two types, depending on how to get to reverse driving.
- type of motor: fossile fuel burning (and even then you have choice between gasoline, diesel and LPG out there, and various types of gasoline which are not always compatible with all kinds of motors), plant oil burning, electric, etc...
- displays: every car seems to have a different way to display speed, time (when it's shown), oil level, etc...
- non-driving-related commands: commands for windscreen wipers, moving the seats around, open the windows, use the radio, etc... can vary widely between car brands even when those brands come from the same supplier!
- and don't forget that even though the driving commands are standard, all cars "feel" different when you drive them, depending not only on their size and shape, but also on their internals.
- many more, those are the only things I could think of right now.
Despite this overwhelming choice in car brands, I have yet to see anyone complaining that there are too many cars out there, that it's bad for the car market, that car makers should get together to make better cars and that we don't need more than three or four different kinds of cars. Actually, if someone heard that they would find it rather silly, and the trend seems to be that people actually want *even more* choice in car brands.
Now what's the difference with Linux? None. Complaining about Linux distributions doing things differently is like complaining that some cars have a digital speed display while others use an analog one. The most stupid complaint is the one about package management. I mean, since when does one expect to be able to change the seats of his Renault Laguna with seats from a Toyota Yaris? If you want to build a successful car seat business, you'll have to make different kinds of seats for different car brands, and everybody finds that normal. And yet that's *much* more difficult than simply packaging your application differently for different Linux flavours.
So, Linux doesn't suffer from the number of Linux distributions. It suffers from the strange idea that somehow choice is good for everything except for operating systems.
Despite this overwhelming choice in car brands, I have yet to see anyone complaining that there are too many cars out there, that it's bad for the car market, that car makers should get together to make better cars and that we don't need more than three or four different kinds of cars. Actually, if someone heard that they would find it rather silly, and the trend seems to be that people actually want *even more* choice in car brands.
Now what's the difference with Linux? None. Complaining about Linux distributions doing things differently is like complaining that some cars have a digital speed display while others use an analog one. The most stupid complaint is the one about package management. I mean, since when does one expect to be able to change the seats of his Renault Laguna with seats from a Toyota Yaris? If you want to build a successful car seat business, you'll have to make different kinds of seats for different car brands, and everybody finds that normal. And yet that's *much* more difficult than simply packaging your application differently for different Linux flavours.
So, Linux doesn't suffer from the number of Linux distributions. It suffers from the strange idea that somehow choice is good for everything except for operating systems.
As has been said elsewhere, when you learned to drive, did you look at the amount of car manufacturers and say "no, too many, I'll not bother"?
In OS land we are just coming out of the Model T Ford period.
"You can have any car you like as long as it's a black model T Ford."
"You can have any OS you like as long as it's Windows."
Look where we are now with cars. What variety!
The most stupid complaint is the one about package management. I mean, since when does one expect to be able to change the seats of his Renault Laguna with seats from a Toyota Yaris? If you want to build a successful car seat business, you'll have to make different kinds of seats for different car brands, and everybody finds that normal. And yet that's *much* more difficult than simply packaging your application differently for different Linux flavours.
In points only and of course not verbatim...consider yourselves plagerized.
I detect the powerful scent of food for thought..
Helios
The most stupid complaint is the one about package management. I mean, since when does one expect to be able to change the seats of his Renault Laguna with seats from a Toyota Yaris? If you want to build a successful car seat business, you'll have to make different kinds of seats for different car brands, and everybody finds that normal. And yet that's *much* more difficult than simply packaging your application differently for different Linux flavours.
In points only and of course not verbatim...consider yourselves plagerized.
I detect the powerful scent of food for thought..
Helios
Helios, you are free to plagiarise my comments in this thread as much as you want. As for food for thought, just tell us whenever you want another helping :) .
Seems to me...
...that the idea has to be conveyed to people that distro's are a bit like car manufacturers. But Linux is the car in essence. The car has 4 wheels, an engine blah blah blah no matter whether it be a Ford or a Rolls Royce or a Nissan etc.
No one who wants to learn to drive says "forget that, there's too many different cars to choose from" they just get on with it.
Thus it is with Linux, it has a command line and a (more or less) universal set of commands and applications. Mostly the different distro's mean different icons and a different colour scheme, and, with distro's like SuSE and Mandriva, some sort of unified control center type interface.
We already know this.
We have to "advertise" in such a way as to make these things clear. Keep it positive, keep it free of anti-M$ rants. Many of us have strong feelings about M$, far various reasons, but we won't come over as well if people perceive it comes down to grudges and axe grinding.
It's in the interest of Microsoft to see as much disinformation spread as possible because they obviously profit from it.
I really do think the best way to reach a lot of people is to hire some space in a shopping center/mall/town hall and set a table or two up and get some Linux users along to show DVD playback and proper 3d games playing and internet etc etc etc. Just make sure you have stack of cd's ready to give away. If it works, hire a town hall and start a LUG. Or get the LUG's involved in the project from the start.
Word of mouth won't suffice in the short term, it's potentially too slow as a process. TV air time is stupidly expensive and owned (largely) by the same sort of global behemoth/s (rupert murdoch to name but one). They probably all know each other socially! One in the eye is worth two in the ear. Or put another way, what is seen working and "not all that difficult after all" is worth more than assurances and adverts. Carry a copy of that picture of Microsoft taken in the 70's (http://www.allfunpix.com/picspages/early_years.html) to counter accusations of the geekiness of Linux. Get a list of companies (and countries) that have made the switch. The community spirit of Linux may well offer a refreshing change to the isolationist, paranoid, fear filled world that some would have us believe we live in.
It's in the interest of Microsoft to see as much disinformation spread as possible because they obviously profit from it.
I really do think the best way to reach a lot of people is to hire some space in a shopping center/mall/town hall and set a table or two up and get some Linux users along to show DVD playback and proper 3d games playing and internet etc etc etc. Just make sure you have stack of cd's ready to give away. If it works, hire a town hall and start a LUG. Or get the LUG's involved in the project from the start.
Word of mouth won't suffice in the short term, it's potentially too slow as a process. TV air time is stupidly expensive and owned (largely) by the same sort of global behemoth/s (rupert murdoch to name but one). They probably all know each other socially! One in the eye is worth two in the ear. Or put another way, what is seen working and "not all that difficult after all" is worth more than assurances and adverts. Carry a copy of that picture of Microsoft taken in the 70's (http://www.allfunpix.com/picspages/early_years.html) to counter accusations of the geekiness of Linux. Get a list of companies (and countries) that have made the switch. The community spirit of Linux may well offer a refreshing change to the isolationist, paranoid, fear filled world that some would have us believe we live in.
Uh, spam alert Scott/Sander/Carla/Tracy/whoever else is here!
I don't seem to have the ability to delete. Or even to block spammers.
Working on getting you and the others that power Tracy, I got it though.
On a Social board where i post the owner has an area called the Dungeon where spam and other stuff gets moved so members can have a laugh.
Four years between the original post and the first reply is probably a record for LXer.
You know, I think your right..lol
Advertising?
Yes, if you want to ramrod GNU/Linux into the limelight overnight and be faced with hordes of demanding and technically inept Windows Users. Totally unwilling to learn anything and absolutely willing to make ridiculous demands about how "the Linux" should work.
No, let it grow slow. The pace might seem glacial, but it is killing Microsoft's monopoly control on the market with the "death through a thousand cuts". Note that I said killing the monopoly control, not killing Microsoft.
We don't need GNU/Linux to be the absolute top dog. We just need the incumbent top dog to become just one of the many. In a market where you are one of the many, interoperability becomes paramount. Push MS off the pedestal and you've solved many problems at once.
Trying to kick-start and boost a slow natural process most likely will have adverse effects. Let GNU/Linux grow on its own. Don't try to speed it up with "nuclear power".
p.s. The fragmentation thing is a false perception. GNU/Linux is GNU/Linux is GNU/Linux. The differences are cosmetic. Persons unable to learn that those differences are cosmetic are not ready yet to get into GNU/Linux.
No, let it grow slow. The pace might seem glacial, but it is killing Microsoft's monopoly control on the market with the "death through a thousand cuts". Note that I said killing the monopoly control, not killing Microsoft.
We don't need GNU/Linux to be the absolute top dog. We just need the incumbent top dog to become just one of the many. In a market where you are one of the many, interoperability becomes paramount. Push MS off the pedestal and you've solved many problems at once.
Trying to kick-start and boost a slow natural process most likely will have adverse effects. Let GNU/Linux grow on its own. Don't try to speed it up with "nuclear power".
p.s. The fragmentation thing is a false perception. GNU/Linux is GNU/Linux is GNU/Linux. The differences are cosmetic. Persons unable to learn that those differences are cosmetic are not ready yet to get into GNU/Linux.
Persons unable to learn that those differences are cosmetic are not ready yet to get into GNU/Linux.
The difference between apt, yum, rpm, emerge, etc are cosmetic? No, they are the guts and gears of the systems. The package management system alone is enough to distinguish which distro is which...not a theme or wallpaper. Do you have any idea how many people decide on which distro they will use depending on how their software is managed? This is going to be important to a new user as well, once they begin to understand Linux. A desktop or desktop environment can be cosmetic, but not the heart of the system.
Oh man...you know, I have been lurking and to a lesser extent participating on this site for a relative short time. I have read your work and opinion and I gotta say, The above statement just isn't what I am used to hearing from you. OK...I know you are going to correct me if I am wrong and who knows...your opinion on things may have changed, I really think you're a decent sort of guy but damn, if that does not smack of Linux Elitism, then I have never seen or heard it.
You raise some very thoughtful and I believe accurate points concerning the growth of Linux...enough for me to at least re-think my plan of action. Re-thinking though is not capitulating. See, I am not necessarily concerned with "hurting Microsoft". I have been accused of being a MS HitMan and I assure you I am not. In fact, I give MS credit when it their due, but I am strongly critical of them when it is merited as well. I simply want to make Linux a viable alternative to the desktop because I think it should be, as do millions of others. Escalation of the use of Linux is going to do one of two things. It is going to cause the improvement and proliferation of our software, or yes, it will drown it with demands for improvement. Now I would assume from your statements above that you really don't think Linux is ready for the desktop. I disagree, and I am willing to invest a part of my own money to advertise it. We will just agree to disagree on that, but Man...you gotta give people some credit for intelligence and the ability to discern for themselves what is good and what they like. Besides, giving Linux some public exposure may be just the push you speak of to get MS off the pedestal. The main fact is that an entire NEW generation of computer user is on the horizon...and they deserve a choice. They are not going to get that unless they know it is available.
Come later this summer in Austin Texas...we will see
The difference between apt, yum, rpm, emerge, etc are cosmetic? No, they are the guts and gears of the systems. The package management system alone is enough to distinguish which distro is which...not a theme or wallpaper. Do you have any idea how many people decide on which distro they will use depending on how their software is managed? This is going to be important to a new user as well, once they begin to understand Linux. A desktop or desktop environment can be cosmetic, but not the heart of the system.
Oh man...you know, I have been lurking and to a lesser extent participating on this site for a relative short time. I have read your work and opinion and I gotta say, The above statement just isn't what I am used to hearing from you. OK...I know you are going to correct me if I am wrong and who knows...your opinion on things may have changed, I really think you're a decent sort of guy but damn, if that does not smack of Linux Elitism, then I have never seen or heard it.
You raise some very thoughtful and I believe accurate points concerning the growth of Linux...enough for me to at least re-think my plan of action. Re-thinking though is not capitulating. See, I am not necessarily concerned with "hurting Microsoft". I have been accused of being a MS HitMan and I assure you I am not. In fact, I give MS credit when it their due, but I am strongly critical of them when it is merited as well. I simply want to make Linux a viable alternative to the desktop because I think it should be, as do millions of others. Escalation of the use of Linux is going to do one of two things. It is going to cause the improvement and proliferation of our software, or yes, it will drown it with demands for improvement. Now I would assume from your statements above that you really don't think Linux is ready for the desktop. I disagree, and I am willing to invest a part of my own money to advertise it. We will just agree to disagree on that, but Man...you gotta give people some credit for intelligence and the ability to discern for themselves what is good and what they like. Besides, giving Linux some public exposure may be just the push you speak of to get MS off the pedestal. The main fact is that an entire NEW generation of computer user is on the horizon...and they deserve a choice. They are not going to get that unless they know it is available.
Come later this summer in Austin Texas...we will see
"hordes of demanding and technically inept Windows Users"
I propose that, from here on out, this group be referred to as Soylent Green.
I propose that, from here on out, this group be referred to as Soylent Green.
Persons unable to learn that those differences are cosmetic are not ready yet to get into GNU/Linux.
OK...I know you are going to correct me if I am wrong and who knows...your opinion on things may have changed, I really think you're a decent sort of guy but damn, if that does not smack of Linux Elitism, then I have never seen or heard it.
Yep, the old accusation that I'm a GNU/Linux elitist. I very well may be. I am a person who believes that we shouldn't try to mold GNU/Linux into what it is not. GNU/Linux is not a drop-in replacement for a few OSes that pretend to be usable to people who seem to be unwilling to learn the slightest thing about computers.
I am not talking about those people, who are not that experienced with computers, but willing to pick up new things. I'm talking about that large group that will not pick up something new out of principle. They will refuse to pay attention when you show them something that could ease their job significantly, if they got the hang of it. (No, I'm not a bad teacher! :D I'm patient and I've passed on some pretty cool knowledge to others who were willing to pay attention to it).
Maybe it's just the general populace in The Netherlands, but I've encountered too many that have learned a very sparse set of skills (under protest perhaps?) and are vehemently against learning anything new. One example: I know a person that keeps asking my help when the Windows Taskbar is shifted from its bottom screen position. Then Windows is "broken". I have told this person that this is standard behaviour in Windows, not a bug. I've shown this person that you can move around the Taskbar to any side of the screen via drag and drop. Yet I keep hearing that Windows is "broken" and that this person needs my help to "fix it".
That is why I like to see slow but steady growth. The new-comers will be genuinely interested in using GNU/Linux and they will be of the sort who are not afraid of something different and new.
I'm not a GNU/Linux nazi, who expects a first time user to be able to write a bash-script before being allowed to use the OS. I'm not even against advertising, but this advertising should appeal to people, who are willing to use GNU/Linux for its merrits. It shouldn't target people, who will start making demands to turn it into Windows II. GNU/Linux is better than that and deserves better than that.
I am fully aware that GNU/Linux has its own flaws and quirks, but I also know that these will be sorted out in time. GNU/Linux is as ready as ever for the desktop, but I think GNU/Linux is not ready for users with a false sense of entitlement, who demand flawless behaviour and are not willing to put in some effort themselves (no, not writing code, but asking for help and learning a little). My "drive" is to protect GNU/Linux from those who would sacrifice everything that is good about GNU/Linux to get a brain-dead, vulnerability infested, click-fest heaven.
GUI's are maturing, package-management is getting easier than ever, usefulness is improving leaps and bounds. Let's give that some time to simmer a little longer. If the stew tastes better, it'll attract new-comers who will stay afterwards. If you overheat it, to get it ready faster, you'll chase away people that otherwise would have gotten a second helping.
As an aside...
The difference between apt, yum, rpm, emerge, etc are cosmetic? No, they are the guts and gears of the systems.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. The guts and gears of the system are the Linux kernel, the GNU OS, X11 and the various GUI's. Package management is a one-time helper tool to get an application installed and showing up in the menu.
After the package is there, the package management has become irrelevant to the use of installed program. The only time in the life of a program that the package management tool becomes relevant again, is if the package is to be upgraded/replaced or removed.
It doesn't matter if a system was installed from RPM's, Deb's or tar.gz. When it is running, you are ready to use it. If you are using a Debian variant, you don't have to know how to work RPM. Just use the Debian package tools. The same is true in reverse for RPM based distro's. To use GNU/Linux you don't have to know gazillion ways of installing a package. Most of the time it is enough to know your distro's package manager.
OK...I know you are going to correct me if I am wrong and who knows...your opinion on things may have changed, I really think you're a decent sort of guy but damn, if that does not smack of Linux Elitism, then I have never seen or heard it.
Yep, the old accusation that I'm a GNU/Linux elitist. I very well may be. I am a person who believes that we shouldn't try to mold GNU/Linux into what it is not. GNU/Linux is not a drop-in replacement for a few OSes that pretend to be usable to people who seem to be unwilling to learn the slightest thing about computers.
I am not talking about those people, who are not that experienced with computers, but willing to pick up new things. I'm talking about that large group that will not pick up something new out of principle. They will refuse to pay attention when you show them something that could ease their job significantly, if they got the hang of it. (No, I'm not a bad teacher! :D I'm patient and I've passed on some pretty cool knowledge to others who were willing to pay attention to it).
Maybe it's just the general populace in The Netherlands, but I've encountered too many that have learned a very sparse set of skills (under protest perhaps?) and are vehemently against learning anything new. One example: I know a person that keeps asking my help when the Windows Taskbar is shifted from its bottom screen position. Then Windows is "broken". I have told this person that this is standard behaviour in Windows, not a bug. I've shown this person that you can move around the Taskbar to any side of the screen via drag and drop. Yet I keep hearing that Windows is "broken" and that this person needs my help to "fix it".
That is why I like to see slow but steady growth. The new-comers will be genuinely interested in using GNU/Linux and they will be of the sort who are not afraid of something different and new.
I'm not a GNU/Linux nazi, who expects a first time user to be able to write a bash-script before being allowed to use the OS. I'm not even against advertising, but this advertising should appeal to people, who are willing to use GNU/Linux for its merrits. It shouldn't target people, who will start making demands to turn it into Windows II. GNU/Linux is better than that and deserves better than that.
I am fully aware that GNU/Linux has its own flaws and quirks, but I also know that these will be sorted out in time. GNU/Linux is as ready as ever for the desktop, but I think GNU/Linux is not ready for users with a false sense of entitlement, who demand flawless behaviour and are not willing to put in some effort themselves (no, not writing code, but asking for help and learning a little). My "drive" is to protect GNU/Linux from those who would sacrifice everything that is good about GNU/Linux to get a brain-dead, vulnerability infested, click-fest heaven.
GUI's are maturing, package-management is getting easier than ever, usefulness is improving leaps and bounds. Let's give that some time to simmer a little longer. If the stew tastes better, it'll attract new-comers who will stay afterwards. If you overheat it, to get it ready faster, you'll chase away people that otherwise would have gotten a second helping.
As an aside...
The difference between apt, yum, rpm, emerge, etc are cosmetic? No, they are the guts and gears of the systems.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. The guts and gears of the system are the Linux kernel, the GNU OS, X11 and the various GUI's. Package management is a one-time helper tool to get an application installed and showing up in the menu.
After the package is there, the package management has become irrelevant to the use of installed program. The only time in the life of a program that the package management tool becomes relevant again, is if the package is to be upgraded/replaced or removed.
It doesn't matter if a system was installed from RPM's, Deb's or tar.gz. When it is running, you are ready to use it. If you are using a Debian variant, you don't have to know how to work RPM. Just use the Debian package tools. The same is true in reverse for RPM based distro's. To use GNU/Linux you don't have to know gazillion ways of installing a package. Most of the time it is enough to know your distro's package manager.
but I think GNU/Linux is not ready for users with a false sense of entitlement, who demand flawless behaviour and are not willing to put in some effort themselves (no, not writing code, but asking for help and learning a little). My "drive" is to protect GNU/Linux from those who would sacrifice everything that is good about GNU/Linux to get a brain-dead, vulnerability infested, click-fest heaven.
YES...There you are r_a_ Though we had lost you there for awhile...False since of entitlement? Now you wouldn't be talking about Windoze userz would you? LOL I'll strap on the black Elitist armband with you on this statement guy.
Guts and gears may have been the wrong way to put it. since most people update and upgrade their software on a semi-regular basis, I would argue with you that the package management system IS important...especially if it sux like yast. Wait...that was pretty judgemental wasn't it? good...maybe now they will fix it. LOL.
Thanx for the debate and the new ideas r_a_ ...I've come to look forward to it.
helios
YES...There you are r_a_ Though we had lost you there for awhile...False since of entitlement? Now you wouldn't be talking about Windoze userz would you? LOL I'll strap on the black Elitist armband with you on this statement guy.
Guts and gears may have been the wrong way to put it. since most people update and upgrade their software on a semi-regular basis, I would argue with you that the package management system IS important...especially if it sux like yast. Wait...that was pretty judgemental wasn't it? good...maybe now they will fix it. LOL.
Thanx for the debate and the new ideas r_a_ ...I've come to look forward to it.
helios
I propose that, from here on out, this group be referred to as Soylent Green.
Ouch, that is pretty harsh. Although I do have problems accepting the general attitude of the Windows using populace, I don't think they should be seen as a processable industry substrate.
Yes, it is pretty annoying to have to deal with them. They will tell you that Windows is the next best thing after sliced bread and they are hopelessly capable of glossing over anything and everything that is wrong with Windows or its mother-company.
That is why I want to keep this group unknowing and in denial as long as possible. My dark musings on how to deal with them, are to keep them complacent and then do an end run around them. One day they'll wake up and find themselves in an all FOSS dominated world.
It'll be easier to deal with them if they have become the minority, holding all the bad cards. (Or not deal with them at all. When the time comes, they can join or be stuck with Windows).
Yes, I'm an Evil Bastard, I know...
Ouch, that is pretty harsh. Although I do have problems accepting the general attitude of the Windows using populace, I don't think they should be seen as a processable industry substrate.
Yes, it is pretty annoying to have to deal with them. They will tell you that Windows is the next best thing after sliced bread and they are hopelessly capable of glossing over anything and everything that is wrong with Windows or its mother-company.
That is why I want to keep this group unknowing and in denial as long as possible. My dark musings on how to deal with them, are to keep them complacent and then do an end run around them. One day they'll wake up and find themselves in an all FOSS dominated world.
It'll be easier to deal with them if they have become the minority, holding all the bad cards. (Or not deal with them at all. When the time comes, they can join or be stuck with Windows).
Yes, I'm an Evil Bastard, I know...
Who to fight
Microsoft isn't the one installing Windows on your new computer.
It is the computer SUPPLIERS.
It is DELL, HP, GATEWAY, etc..
DELL, HP, GATEWAY, etc are the culprits. They continue to maintain Microsoft's desktop monopoly. I don't care if they sell a gazillion Linux servers. Microsoft is not a monopoly there.
It is DELL, HP, GATEWAY, etc that do NOT offer consumers a choice.
I suggest boycotting these companies that do not offer consumers a non-Microsoft choice.
Linux machines are selling well elsewhere i.e. walmart.com outpost.com, etc.
thanks for listening
Don't get mad at Microsoft. Get mad at the suppliers that don't offer you a choice. Don't do business with them.
DELL, HP, GATEWAY, etc are the culprits. They continue to maintain Microsoft's desktop monopoly. I don't care if they sell a gazillion Linux servers. Microsoft is not a monopoly there.
It is DELL, HP, GATEWAY, etc that do NOT offer consumers a choice.
I suggest boycotting these companies that do not offer consumers a non-Microsoft choice.
Linux machines are selling well elsewhere i.e. walmart.com outpost.com, etc.
thanks for listening
Don't get mad at Microsoft. Get mad at the suppliers that don't offer you a choice. Don't do business with them.
>Don't get mad at Microsoft.
>Get mad at the suppliers that don't offer you a choice.
>Don't do business with them.
Well, right on two out of three, anyway -- one out of three depending on your predilections.
It makes no sense to get mad at the vendors. It's not personal to them, it's all business. That's the way we need to look at it, too.
Don't do business with them is the right answer.
If you're so inclined, you can even drop a note the next time you buy competing hardware, letting them know that you really wanted to buy x, but bought y instead because it offered Linux support and that outweighed any advantages x might have.
But don't get mad. It'll just raise your stress levels and shorten your life.
Well, right on two out of three, anyway -- one out of three depending on your predilections.
It makes no sense to get mad at the vendors. It's not personal to them, it's all business. That's the way we need to look at it, too.
Don't do business with them is the right answer.
If you're so inclined, you can even drop a note the next time you buy competing hardware, letting them know that you really wanted to buy x, but bought y instead because it offered Linux support and that outweighed any advantages x might have.
But don't get mad. It'll just raise your stress levels and shorten your life.
But don't get mad. It'll just raise your stress levels and shorten your life.
This part of the comment really hacked me off! Who are you to tell me not to get angry? !? Huh?
This part of the comment really hacked me off! Who are you to tell me not to get angry? !? Huh?
Ferris, you just never quit, do you?
You just up a roly-polty little head of steam and then just HACK PEOPLE OFF!!!
You blurry-eyed bitheads, oblivious to the pungent smell of mildew accumulating in your dank little hacker havens, care not one whit for the feelings of others.
NO! NOT YOU!!!!
You see a couple of people having a perfectly civilized conversation and YOU JUST WANT TO DESTROY WHAT LITTLE BIT OF DECENCY REMAINS IN THIS WORLD.
YOU'RE JUST LUCKY I'M SO #%@$!!! HARD TO ANGER!!!!
You just up a roly-polty little head of steam and then just HACK PEOPLE OFF!!!
You blurry-eyed bitheads, oblivious to the pungent smell of mildew accumulating in your dank little hacker havens, care not one whit for the feelings of others.
NO! NOT YOU!!!!
You see a couple of people having a perfectly civilized conversation and YOU JUST WANT TO DESTROY WHAT LITTLE BIT OF DECENCY REMAINS IN THIS WORLD.
YOU'RE JUST LUCKY I'M SO #%@$!!! HARD TO ANGER!!!!
Now now, my little peasants, remember that how you express yourself is just as important as what you say. If you wish to be heard then you must use "I" messages so you don't sound like you are attacking your listener, like:
"I am really hacked off by your idiotic, unfocused ramblings." "You really piss I off." "If I were a carpenter, and you were a lady, would you marry me anyway, would you have my baby."
See? You can honestly express yourself, and still maintain civilized discourse.
"I am really hacked off by your idiotic, unfocused ramblings." "You really piss I off." "If I were a carpenter, and you were a lady, would you marry me anyway, would you have my baby."
See? You can honestly express yourself, and still maintain civilized discourse.
See? You can honestly express yourself, and still maintain civilized discourse.
You really pulled that one off -- the quote above in the same talkback as a song qoute that idolizes procreation.
You self-contradictory hackers are all alike.
You crouch in the dust of your debating booths, nothing but the sound of new-age folk music and the glow from the lava lamps to guide your way. You come onto this message board and act all smarmy in your heavy handed way, interupt a perfectly sane discourse between the 'trac'd one and myself, and then pretend all the while that you're giving us advice on how best for each of us to get attention.
But I'm on to you now. I see through the wall of pretend honesty and suggestions of spawning processes (say this sentense it like Sylvester the Cat, it's a lot funnier that way). Just remember -- no one uses the I noun like we do, er, something like that -- remember it I tell you!
One day soon (this part is mandatory, sorry) you and your kind will find yourselves debating simple things like whether to use KDE or GNOME. You won't be able to finish the next cookbook because you won't be able to decide. Then (THEN!) we'll see the damage from your contradictory nature.
;) FeriCyde
You really pulled that one off -- the quote above in the same talkback as a song qoute that idolizes procreation.
You self-contradictory hackers are all alike.
You crouch in the dust of your debating booths, nothing but the sound of new-age folk music and the glow from the lava lamps to guide your way. You come onto this message board and act all smarmy in your heavy handed way, interupt a perfectly sane discourse between the 'trac'd one and myself, and then pretend all the while that you're giving us advice on how best for each of us to get attention.
But I'm on to you now. I see through the wall of pretend honesty and suggestions of spawning processes (say this sentense it like Sylvester the Cat, it's a lot funnier that way). Just remember -- no one uses the I noun like we do, er, something like that -- remember it I tell you!
One day soon (this part is mandatory, sorry) you and your kind will find yourselves debating simple things like whether to use KDE or GNOME. You won't be able to finish the next cookbook because you won't be able to decide. Then (THEN!) we'll see the damage from your contradictory nature.
;) FeriCyde
Ferris --
You pitiful little troll...
Admit it...
You're just hacked off because Tuxchick was able to be more clever than you even when using a lame 60s semi-folk-song reference.
You pitiful little troll...
Admit it...
You're just hacked off because Tuxchick was able to be more clever than you even when using a lame 60s semi-folk-song reference.
"There must be some way out of here," said the user to the geek,
"There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief.
Billy Gates, he drinks my wine, Apple dig my earth,
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth."
"No reason to get excited," the geek, he kindly spoke, "There are many here among us who feel Linux is but a joke. But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate, So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late."
"No reason to get excited," the geek, he kindly spoke, "There are many here among us who feel Linux is but a joke. But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate, So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late."
salparadise: that's awesome -- Hendrix.
Tuxchick: You know what I said was a compliment.
Dinotrac: As usual, you're just replying to demean my stature. I am not a "little" troll -- got it?
I'm just a troll, and I'd rather not be... resisting the urge to paraphrase no-doubt. Done.
Tuxchick: You know what I said was a compliment.
Dinotrac: As usual, you're just replying to demean my stature. I am not a "little" troll -- got it?
I'm just a troll, and I'd rather not be... resisting the urge to paraphrase no-doubt. Done.
No one heard me cry
not
even
the
chair
Paulie -
So sorry. Big troll.
Tuxchick --
As Yoda might say, "So impressed by you I am, I cried."
So sorry. Big troll.
Tuxchick --
As Yoda might say, "So impressed by you I am, I cried."
Paulie -
I almost forgot...
Did you know that we acquired a new (stray) dog last fall. A chihuahua. Weighs 7 pounds.
Big chihuahua.
I almost forgot...
Did you know that we acquired a new (stray) dog last fall. A chihuahua. Weighs 7 pounds.
Big chihuahua.
'scuse me, while I kiss the sky.
helios
helios
Getting back to the original topic (sorry, but I have an actual on-topic thought) -- Back when the DoJ first started going after M$ (boy howdy, them DoJ pitbulls sure taught Gates and Ballmer a lesson) (yeah right) the blindingly obvious avenue of investigation was (and still is) collusion between M$ and hardware vendors. Not just PC sellers, but everything- printers, scanners, expansion cards, the works. Not for even a nanosecond do I believe that hardware manufacturers are cannily waiting for that magic level of demand that would make it worthwhile for them to support Linux- that's just code for "we don't want to piss off Microsoft."
They don't even need to write the drivers- just supplying specs and test units to the existing giant horde of Linux driver developers would do the job. But the reluctance of so many of them to do so is quite obviously ph34r of the Evil Empire. Criminy, they act like Linux users want to abuse their virgin daughters or something.
They don't even need to write the drivers- just supplying specs and test units to the existing giant horde of Linux driver developers would do the job. But the reluctance of so many of them to do so is quite obviously ph34r of the Evil Empire. Criminy, they act like Linux users want to abuse their virgin daughters or something.
"Criminy, they act like Linux users want to abuse their virgin daughters or something."
Given the choice between their daughters being abused by crazed linux users and losing MS money,I have to wonder which choice they'd make.So far,it doesn't look good for the daughters.
Given the choice between their daughters being abused by crazed linux users and losing MS money,I have to wonder which choice they'd make.So far,it doesn't look good for the daughters.
tuxchick: on the mark. Microsoft could make life similarly difficult for them, just as they do ISVs -- change an API call just to break a driver and maybe a whole series of printers suddenly doesn't work as good as it used to. This is a terrifying thought -- users won't know the difference between a bad printer and a bad printer driver -- it's all the same to them.
I'm reminded of a reversal of this from ancient experience (1996, to be exact) when NT 4.0 started shipping and clueless salesmen (yes PM, I'm talking about you) were selling NT into Unix manufacturing shops that needed honest to goodness vector plotting. Guess what? NT 4.0 by default had no ability to talk to anything but raster devices.
Do you think the end-user of the services understood?
You could buy say, and HP pen plotter (or ink-jet which emulated pen plotting) and hook it up, but if your software didn't know Windows printing you were screwed (Read: it was lame, because printing a roll-sized, 36 inch wide CAD drawing via raster means about 40-120 meg of traffic to the device, versus say, 120k of vector pen plotter commands, which transfers and provides just as pretty of a picture). Guess what -- I was supporting as a systems engineer, HP's CAD system, which rocked.
Usually.
In this case, it sucked -- because the printer drivers for Windows NT 4.0 were raster only. This was before a 3rd party stepped in and wrote a set of drivers to fix the problem.
Do you think the customer understood any of this?
No. It was my fault (they of course had the trial for this judgement sans myself). I was able to get the plotter to work, after 3 days of hair-pulling -- in a broken sense. Slow as molasis in January, plotting only to the center of the page regardless of how the check-boxes were picked. Top it all off with the fact that the SMB traffic on their network was aweful and you have a recipe for disaster.
Oh, and NT 4.0 was as stable as a tea-cup in an earthquake.
End-users don't understand Microsofts tricks -- things either work or they're junk. Microsoft can make them junk simply by changing an API in a DLL to their whims.
Don't think they would do this? Go and study some trial data from say, 1995, and look for yourself. It won't take long to draw the conclusions, because they've provided ample historical data to support this.
Contrast all of this cloak and dagger BS with the ability to simply look into the source code any time you want. It's going to be somewhat tricky, but I think it's not beyond the realm of possibility that we can still see some open-ness in the hardware sector, long term.
After all, the rest of the Linux-using world will eventually need to buy hardware.
I'm reminded of a reversal of this from ancient experience (1996, to be exact) when NT 4.0 started shipping and clueless salesmen (yes PM, I'm talking about you) were selling NT into Unix manufacturing shops that needed honest to goodness vector plotting. Guess what? NT 4.0 by default had no ability to talk to anything but raster devices.
Do you think the end-user of the services understood?
You could buy say, and HP pen plotter (or ink-jet which emulated pen plotting) and hook it up, but if your software didn't know Windows printing you were screwed (Read: it was lame, because printing a roll-sized, 36 inch wide CAD drawing via raster means about 40-120 meg of traffic to the device, versus say, 120k of vector pen plotter commands, which transfers and provides just as pretty of a picture). Guess what -- I was supporting as a systems engineer, HP's CAD system, which rocked.
Usually.
In this case, it sucked -- because the printer drivers for Windows NT 4.0 were raster only. This was before a 3rd party stepped in and wrote a set of drivers to fix the problem.
Do you think the customer understood any of this?
No. It was my fault (they of course had the trial for this judgement sans myself). I was able to get the plotter to work, after 3 days of hair-pulling -- in a broken sense. Slow as molasis in January, plotting only to the center of the page regardless of how the check-boxes were picked. Top it all off with the fact that the SMB traffic on their network was aweful and you have a recipe for disaster.
Oh, and NT 4.0 was as stable as a tea-cup in an earthquake.
End-users don't understand Microsofts tricks -- things either work or they're junk. Microsoft can make them junk simply by changing an API in a DLL to their whims.
Don't think they would do this? Go and study some trial data from say, 1995, and look for yourself. It won't take long to draw the conclusions, because they've provided ample historical data to support this.
Contrast all of this cloak and dagger BS with the ability to simply look into the source code any time you want. It's going to be somewhat tricky, but I think it's not beyond the realm of possibility that we can still see some open-ness in the hardware sector, long term.
After all, the rest of the Linux-using world will eventually need to buy hardware.
they act like Linux users want to abuse their virgin daughters or something.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
helios
You say that like it's a bad thing.
helios
alc: a lot depends upon the daughters' definition of "good".
That is MSFT's position now. They are actually vulnerable to companies that are willing to saw fsck off MSFT. take http://www.pchdtv.com/hd_3000_right_down.html
they can give you windows drivers but don't expect support, or for them to even work right.
As more and more companies realize that there is a way out of the mess, licensing issues, and prices of MSFT certified they will take it. Slowly at first.
Longhorn is doomed to die. to many features have been removed for nothing. it is going to be windows XP SE while windows XP will turn into XP.b with half of the back ported features of xp SE.
As more and more companies realize that there is a way out of the mess, licensing issues, and prices of MSFT certified they will take it. Slowly at first.
Longhorn is doomed to die. to many features have been removed for nothing. it is going to be windows XP SE while windows XP will turn into XP.b with half of the back ported features of xp SE.
A small note
Marketing usually includes Product, Place, Price, Promotion. Better don't mix it. Apples product is usually considered great. Maybe they lack on the promotion front.
However, wish you well with the funding of your local advertising campain. I'd probably use small newspaper ads instead of radio. On the other hand, I have no idea about the media consumption in Texas. And I'm used to direct mailing campaigns.
Maybe that is why I don't like radio. There's no way for somebody listening to do something, right now! You have no paper handy when you hear an radio ad. But if you want people to change OS'es, you need them to contact you.
If you're interested in a suggestion, let me know.
However, wish you well with the funding of your local advertising campain. I'd probably use small newspaper ads instead of radio. On the other hand, I have no idea about the media consumption in Texas. And I'm used to direct mailing campaigns.
Maybe that is why I don't like radio. There's no way for somebody listening to do something, right now! You have no paper handy when you hear an radio ad. But if you want people to change OS'es, you need them to contact you.
If you're interested in a suggestion, let me know.
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You managed to alienate...
Mac users Microsofties Conservatives Capitalists Any one who likes the penguin The entire middle-eastern region
...all so you could tell us that, in order to encourage choice, we need to eliminate choice.
Good plan.