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Why Ubuntu isn't for New Linux Users
I'm not out to win any popularity contests...I'm not out to garner a bunch of page hits to generate ad revenue (no ads on the page). I'm just out to help the Linux community and rant a bit when I find a subject that strikes a nerve. The subject at hand is Why Ubuntu is NOT New Linux Users.
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Comments (35)
'bout time
I don't want to curb your enthuisiasm at all, but don't use that energy to diss Ubuntu. I don't even agree with the article but I have respect for you and devnet. So, I'll put it up.
Praise your favorite distributions don't bash others. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Praise your favorite distributions don't bash others. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
I agree. Ubuntu may have it's faults, but it has done nothing to deserve this rant.
Why do anti-distro rants always sound like "I liked The Anti-Nowhere League better before they went all commerical"?
This isn't an anti-Ubuntu rant people.
I really wish you'd read the article instead of deciding what it is about just because you don't agree with the assumption.
I agree in the article that Ubuntu is solid and a good distro. I also admit to using it. I just don't agree with everyone trying to force it onto new Linux users saying "Ubuntu is easy!!!".
I'm not against Ubuntu as a distro...just as a distro for new Linux users. Give them something like SimplyMEPIS or PCLinuxOS so that they can get up and running right away without installing tons of plugins via console/shell. That's my motto and I'm sticking to it.
I really wish you'd read the article instead of deciding what it is about just because you don't agree with the assumption.
I agree in the article that Ubuntu is solid and a good distro. I also admit to using it. I just don't agree with everyone trying to force it onto new Linux users saying "Ubuntu is easy!!!".
I'm not against Ubuntu as a distro...just as a distro for new Linux users. Give them something like SimplyMEPIS or PCLinuxOS so that they can get up and running right away without installing tons of plugins via console/shell. That's my motto and I'm sticking to it.
I read the article.
here too
I posted this on the comments on your blog too devnet, but I'll expand a bit here (so you have to read both to get the whole picture; yes I like being a PITA that way...lol).
Where and how did the assumption that GUI's are some kind of usability holy grail come from? Simply because there is a GUI to do installation or whatever else you assume a new user would want/need doesn't automatically mean it's simpler to use. If that were the case, then WIndows would be almost intuitive to a new user; obviously that's not the case at all.
Also, "new Linux users" is such a broad and vague term as to be almost meaningless to me. What this new user wants to do or needs to do would have more bearing on what they consider to be easy, as would any experience with other OS's. A GUI can be slapped onto anything with minimal effort; a good GUI is a bit more involved. And what if this new user (like me) hates Flash and doesn't want that plugin installed? the lack of a pointy-clicky installer wouldn't be an issue at all.
I just think you're tending to lump together too many potential differing views and expectations by claiming any one distro is the "perfect" one for all new users. Chasing after some perceived ideal is a waste of time; the ideals are different for each user and each situation. What if this new user is on a corporate desktop and shouldn't be installing thigns anyway? Then sudo and a CLI may end up being effective deterrants.
Where and how did the assumption that GUI's are some kind of usability holy grail come from? Simply because there is a GUI to do installation or whatever else you assume a new user would want/need doesn't automatically mean it's simpler to use. If that were the case, then WIndows would be almost intuitive to a new user; obviously that's not the case at all.
Also, "new Linux users" is such a broad and vague term as to be almost meaningless to me. What this new user wants to do or needs to do would have more bearing on what they consider to be easy, as would any experience with other OS's. A GUI can be slapped onto anything with minimal effort; a good GUI is a bit more involved. And what if this new user (like me) hates Flash and doesn't want that plugin installed? the lack of a pointy-clicky installer wouldn't be an issue at all.
I just think you're tending to lump together too many potential differing views and expectations by claiming any one distro is the "perfect" one for all new users. Chasing after some perceived ideal is a waste of time; the ideals are different for each user and each situation. What if this new user is on a corporate desktop and shouldn't be installing thigns anyway? Then sudo and a CLI may end up being effective deterrants.
I don't see the article as a rant at all, I believe Devnet has put the case fairly succinctly that in his opinion Ubuntu isn't ready for Joe Sixpack user to use out of the box.
If something isn't ready then it just isn't ready it has nothing to do with dissing a distro, he's just calling it the way he sees it. I certainly can't comment on whether Ubuntu is ready or not as i don't use it.
I agree with Dotmil that "New Linux User" is too broad a term, and Devnet should probably have referred to "Mr. Joe Sixpack Ex Window User" as your average GUI user more specifically, but as far as i can see the article is fine other than that.
What i can comment on is that PCLinuxOS even in it's current beta form is the closest thing i've come across to an out of the box Linux distro, it certainly isn't perfect but its the best i've seen.
Anyways i will continue to recommend to all new users Slackware as the ultimate out of the box desk top distro.
Ok just kidding on the last one :)
If something isn't ready then it just isn't ready it has nothing to do with dissing a distro, he's just calling it the way he sees it. I certainly can't comment on whether Ubuntu is ready or not as i don't use it.
I agree with Dotmil that "New Linux User" is too broad a term, and Devnet should probably have referred to "Mr. Joe Sixpack Ex Window User" as your average GUI user more specifically, but as far as i can see the article is fine other than that.
What i can comment on is that PCLinuxOS even in it's current beta form is the closest thing i've come across to an out of the box Linux distro, it certainly isn't perfect but its the best i've seen.
Anyways i will continue to recommend to all new users Slackware as the ultimate out of the box desk top distro.
Ok just kidding on the last one :)
Koriel:
> Anyways i will continue to recommend to all new users Slackware as the ultimate out of the box desk top distro.
Just remove "out of the box" and insert "after days of customization" and you'll have it right. :)
> Anyways i will continue to recommend to all new users Slackware as the ultimate out of the box desk top distro.
Just remove "out of the box" and insert "after days of customization" and you'll have it right. :)
From a users point of view Slackware is terrifying. From a "trying to learn Linux" point of view it's wonderful.
It now takes me about 20 minutes to set up a slackbox with nvidia drivers, most of the browser plugins, xine, mplayer, OO and so on.
My main box at home is currently running Ubuntu and Slackware 10.2 - I screwed Debian into the ground trying to upgrade it, so I took it out and shot it and replaced it with Slack - I do have some slackware boxes that I'm responsible for first line tech support on, so I thought I'd better start using it.
The lack of wizards, gui tools and admin shortcuts actually saves time (in the long run) and forces you to learn how to do it on the command line. For a wannabe sysadmin this is invaluable.
My first distro was Slackware 2 on about 20 floppies way back in the day, (days it was more like months) but boy did i learn was extremely educational :)
It can be considered an "out of the box" distro in that you would truly have to be out of your box if you thought it was for Joe Sixpack :)
It can be considered an "out of the box" distro in that you would truly have to be out of your box if you thought it was for Joe Sixpack :)
> t now takes me about 20 minutes to set up a slackbox with nvidia drivers, most of the browser plugins, xine, mplayer, OO and so on.
Well, I've never tried to get mplayer working on Slackware, but since Xine handles pretty much everything I throw at it (with the appropriate codecs from the mplayer site, of course), I've never need to. Likewise I've never installed OO, as I have no need for an office suite. But other than that, I agree. The problem is that learning how to get to that twenty minutes is not something I'd want a complete newbie to go through as their first Linux experience. And this is a hardcore Slackware user speaking: I've been running Slackware as my desktop since 1994. Now, once the newbie gets used to Linux, and wants to learn more, Slackware is the best distribution for actually learning Linux.
Well, I've never tried to get mplayer working on Slackware, but since Xine handles pretty much everything I throw at it (with the appropriate codecs from the mplayer site, of course), I've never need to. Likewise I've never installed OO, as I have no need for an office suite. But other than that, I agree. The problem is that learning how to get to that twenty minutes is not something I'd want a complete newbie to go through as their first Linux experience. And this is a hardcore Slackware user speaking: I've been running Slackware as my desktop since 1994. Now, once the newbie gets used to Linux, and wants to learn more, Slackware is the best distribution for actually learning Linux.
The only thing xine seems to struggle with is media embedded in webpages. Granted the gxine app sometimes works but mplayerplug-in plays stuff in the page as it should be played - 99% of the time.
Sal:
> The only thing xine seems to struggle with is media embedded in webpages.
Hmm, I've never noticed a problem with it, but then most "embedded media" translates as ads to me, so I've probably really never noticed. I'll have to give mplayer another look and see if it's any easier to install now. Thanks for the tip. I do use the gxine plugin.
> The only thing xine seems to struggle with is media embedded in webpages.
Hmm, I've never noticed a problem with it, but then most "embedded media" translates as ads to me, so I've probably really never noticed. I'll have to give mplayer another look and see if it's any easier to install now. Thanks for the tip. I do use the gxine plugin.
I can vouch for MPlayer working fine in Slackware, once all the correct codecs are installed, i never have a problem with it but thats the great thing about Slack once its all been configured it just runs and runs and as Sal says the mplayer plugin works well.
Im suprised that more folks are not attempting to build a desktop distro other than Slax, Vector using Slackware as a base as it seems to me most suited to the job, granted i know zilch about putting a distro together other than it involves lots of hard work.
Im suprised that more folks are not attempting to build a desktop distro other than Slax, Vector using Slackware as a base as it seems to me most suited to the job, granted i know zilch about putting a distro together other than it involves lots of hard work.
Agreed.
I have to agree with this article.
Ubuntu doesn't come close to the ease of use, guided install and plain simplicity that both PCLinuxOS and Mepis offer.
For a brand new user who doesn't have a "friend that can" a live CD with (optional) easy installer is perfect.
And I do agree that distros aiming for the new user market need to take this model seriously. For the immediate future it's the ideal way to get people to have a go.
For a brand new user who doesn't have a "friend that can" a live CD with (optional) easy installer is perfect.
And I do agree that distros aiming for the new user market need to take this model seriously. For the immediate future it's the ideal way to get people to have a go.
Bad example, Java is supposed to be difficult
Proprietary Java should be difficult to install on a Free Software distribution. That pressure is needed to both remind people it's unsafe to write Free Software Java code as it depends on a proprietary layer, as well as to spur development of Free Software replacements for the JRE like gcj. The same is true for Flash content and projects like Gnash.
Ask yourself, what do you want Debian-based distributions to eventually be? A mix of proprietary and Free Software like Cygwin on Windows, or pure Free Software? If, as I hope, you someday want pure Free Software, you have to accept making such sacrifices along the way. Making it easy to not sacrifice is not leading you where you want to go.
Ask yourself, what do you want Debian-based distributions to eventually be? A mix of proprietary and Free Software like Cygwin on Windows, or pure Free Software? If, as I hope, you someday want pure Free Software, you have to accept making such sacrifices along the way. Making it easy to not sacrifice is not leading you where you want to go.
Making it difficult for people to do the things they want to do will assure that Linux never gets more than 2 or 3 % of the market. Most people just want to use their computer without complications. Sorry.... but that is human nature.
I have made sacrifices to use Linus that no average user would make (because it was fun and I am retired, so I have time to learn all this stuff). Don't ask someone with a job, kids, etc. to spend a lot of time learning Linux when all they have to do is buy a computer with Windows installed and plug it in. Their questions can be answered by the "Windows expert living next door".
mdl put it EXACTLY how it is.
That's part of what this article stresses.
That's part of what this article stresses.
Since when does market share matter? How do you even define a "market share" of a free (as in cost) product? I'm assuming you mean numer of users, but that and market share are two totally different things.
more n00b's?
I fail to understand why devnet should pick out Ubuntu for his rant against the n00b unfriendly. Ubuntu may have it's faults, but he makes it sound like the evil empire. It is no where near that, and has added many new users to the Linux fold..
To become a knowledgeable Linux user requires that one be willing to learn new information, but no more than to become a knowledgeable Windows user. The info and methods of doing things is just different. The truth is, whether in Windows or in 'any' Linux Distro, the 'average user' devnet so fondly talks about is an idiot, without the desire and in many cases the ability to manage their system. People who expect it all to appear by magic are in for a disappointing life in any given situation. I am entirely for GUI interfaces, but, when devnet says that your average user can't deal with a terminal occasionally, he's telling me that he hasn't', for whatever reason, learned to operate a computer on any platform.
I become more and more dubious of adding a new mob of people to Linux who are 'only' users in the basest sense. I don't see this doing Linux any favors, no matter what the market share. Ultimately, I see 'point and click Linux' is becoming a way to dumb down Linux to the lowest common denominator. Sorry, but I will not support that.
devnet also talks about PCLinux and Mepis, but, to do anything in either of those Distros still requires a certain knowledge of Linux structure and was of doing things. I've done extensive support for Mepis and I know that sooner rather than later the user will have to drop to that feared command line. The new user needs to learn how to handle that, A point click solution only delays and masks the real problem. Overall, this article is just talking trash.
Read the whole commentTo become a knowledgeable Linux user requires that one be willing to learn new information, but no more than to become a knowledgeable Windows user. The info and methods of doing things is just different. The truth is, whether in Windows or in 'any' Linux Distro, the 'average user' devnet so fondly talks about is an idiot, without the desire and in many cases the ability to manage their system. People who expect it all to appear by magic are in for a disappointing life in any given situation. I am entirely for GUI interfaces, but, when devnet says that your average user can't deal with a terminal occasionally, he's telling me that he hasn't', for whatever reason, learned to operate a computer on any platform.
I become more and more dubious of adding a new mob of people to Linux who are 'only' users in the basest sense. I don't see this doing Linux any favors, no matter what the market share. Ultimately, I see 'point and click Linux' is becoming a way to dumb down Linux to the lowest common denominator. Sorry, but I will not support that.
devnet also talks about PCLinux and Mepis, but, to do anything in either of those Distros still requires a certain knowledge of Linux structure and was of doing things. I've done extensive support for Mepis and I know that sooner rather than later the user will have to drop to that feared command line. The new user needs to learn how to handle that, A point click solution only delays and masks the real problem. Overall, this article is just talking trash.
Then you saw where I told everyone that I use the evil empire right? I admit that Ubuntu is a good solid distro and that I use it. But like I said, new Linux converts is not where we should press it.
SimplyMEPIS and PCLinuxOS are fantastic distros because they have everything working right away. That will encourage new Linux users right out of the gate that their experience is positive. They'll be happy and more apt to solve problems that may arise later.
Throw a spoke in their wheels early and they're liable to get off the bike and never try to ride it again.
It's all about experience and what distro I think that new Linux users would benefit the best from.
Remember Jim, I did a 5 month long experiment to back up this assumption last year. I have tons of data to support it. What does anyone else got?
Devnet
SimplyMEPIS and PCLinuxOS are fantastic distros because they have everything working right away. That will encourage new Linux users right out of the gate that their experience is positive. They'll be happy and more apt to solve problems that may arise later.
Throw a spoke in their wheels early and they're liable to get off the bike and never try to ride it again.
It's all about experience and what distro I think that new Linux users would benefit the best from.
Remember Jim, I did a 5 month long experiment to back up this assumption last year. I have tons of data to support it. What does anyone else got?
Devnet
I can't really speak to PCLinuxOS as I only tried it once and briefly but SimplyMEPIS does not have everything working right away.
My installation of that was on a SONY VGN-A140P. Right off the bat, no desktop. Some minor tweak to the conf file, can't remember what it was, and it was running but a new user isn't going to do that. Once the desktop was running, it didn't detect a sound card. (i810, I believe)
My installation of that was on a SONY VGN-A140P. Right off the bat, no desktop. Some minor tweak to the conf file, can't remember what it was, and it was running but a new user isn't going to do that. Once the desktop was running, it didn't detect a sound card. (i810, I believe)
All of which is preferrable to an 800x600 BROWN desktop where there's NO browser plugins installed by default and that's IF you can work your way through the installer.
All of which is also preferrable to Windows Live CD's, if there were such a thing, they'd cost £20 a piece and there'd be several diffferent types per manufacturer, and there'd be no net functionality and mostly they wouldn't work and they'd over write parts of the hard drive and would crash constantly.
devnet is right (IMO) If you want new users you need to help them as much as possible. Some distros do this better than others.
There's no law that says "all linux users must want everyone else to use Linux", but if you're one of those people that do, then Ubuntu is not the road to go down with the "never installed so much as a wallpaper before" types.
Salient point being that Ubuntu is "aimed at being easy for new users" and yet other distros have a better solution for these "new users".
All of which is also preferrable to Windows Live CD's, if there were such a thing, they'd cost £20 a piece and there'd be several diffferent types per manufacturer, and there'd be no net functionality and mostly they wouldn't work and they'd over write parts of the hard drive and would crash constantly.
devnet is right (IMO) If you want new users you need to help them as much as possible. Some distros do this better than others.
There's no law that says "all linux users must want everyone else to use Linux", but if you're one of those people that do, then Ubuntu is not the road to go down with the "never installed so much as a wallpaper before" types.
Salient point being that Ubuntu is "aimed at being easy for new users" and yet other distros have a better solution for these "new users".
devnet,
I've watched your 'experiment'. I'm just not totally convinced that your 'data' is particularly accurate or even valid. My experience certainly doesn't support your conclusions. As I said, I've been seeing the point and click stuff just masking user learning issues. I can't speak for PCLinux, but a lot of the info on the Mepis forums is inaccurate or just plain BS, so that doesn't help either. I know the GUI interface, point and click as it were, will continue to develop, and eventually Linux will become easier to use, but I just don't see that as the magic bullet that will propel Linux to fame. I'm also not entirely sure that your and helios' definitions of success for Linux are the same as mine.
Also, I'm sorry, but I see nothing in Ubuntu that would make it all that difficult for a first time user. Nothing any of us can do will mask the fact that it is Linux and not Windows. Anyway, we really wouldn't want that now, would we?
I've watched your 'experiment'. I'm just not totally convinced that your 'data' is particularly accurate or even valid. My experience certainly doesn't support your conclusions. As I said, I've been seeing the point and click stuff just masking user learning issues. I can't speak for PCLinux, but a lot of the info on the Mepis forums is inaccurate or just plain BS, so that doesn't help either. I know the GUI interface, point and click as it were, will continue to develop, and eventually Linux will become easier to use, but I just don't see that as the magic bullet that will propel Linux to fame. I'm also not entirely sure that your and helios' definitions of success for Linux are the same as mine.
Also, I'm sorry, but I see nothing in Ubuntu that would make it all that difficult for a first time user. Nothing any of us can do will mask the fact that it is Linux and not Windows. Anyway, we really wouldn't want that now, would we?
"Remember Jim, I did a 5 month long experiment to back up this assumption last year. I have tons of data to support it. What does anyone else got?"
Having your spouse run a distro for a few days is great and all, but I'd hardly consider that to be slam-dunk accurate indicators enough to generalize out to cover *all* new Linux users. What you proved was your spouse's ability to play dumb (I know she has more knowledge that used in the test cases; she even stated as much in several of them) and act as some stereotypical new user.
Now, run that same experiment with several hundred people who have honestly no Linux experience (that is the group you're talking about right?) and define the background and usage expectations of those users then you may have something. What if this "new Linux user" was a BSD or Solaris user? I hardly think some CLI-phobia would be an issue at all.
Having your spouse run a distro for a few days is great and all, but I'd hardly consider that to be slam-dunk accurate indicators enough to generalize out to cover *all* new Linux users. What you proved was your spouse's ability to play dumb (I know she has more knowledge that used in the test cases; she even stated as much in several of them) and act as some stereotypical new user.
Now, run that same experiment with several hundred people who have honestly no Linux experience (that is the group you're talking about right?) and define the background and usage expectations of those users then you may have something. What if this "new Linux user" was a BSD or Solaris user? I hardly think some CLI-phobia would be an issue at all.
Aye, there's the rub.
Is there such a thing as knowledge free computing? (Meaning point and click - no need to learn anything about anything).
Should Microsoft have encouraged people to think there was such a thing? (If indeed that's what they've done).
How many people will turn away when they realise they are going to have to learn something?
Has microsoft done anyone any favours (by making computing a widely available opportunity) or just made a rod for our backs? (Why isn't it simple? Where's the "set my PC up for me wizard"?)
If a user who has never installed an OS before tries Ubuntu, at what point will they get confused? The point at which it asks for a hostname? Or the partitioner? Or the "is your time set to UTC?" bit. Or all three? What about when they try to access multimedia content in a webpage and get "no plugins found" messages? Or when they try to play a DVD?
helios and devnet are concerned with a new users very first impression, for it's this impression that will go on to impact their experience, and effect how they relate that experience to those around them. If such a new user comes back with "within 5 minutes it was asking me stuff I've never heard of before" then another OEM Windows box is sold and another handful of people hear that "this linux isn't as friendly as it's hyped up to be".
When you go to the local computer shop (as a non technical buyer) you see display pc's setup for you to look at. They are usually playing a film or a game or something to show them off. The fact that MS don't provide all the drivers needed is transparent to the buyer, as is the way Windows installs. (And plenty would run a mile if they knew). Because the shops don't tend to have Linux boxes setup correctly the OSS community is left to sort it's own "showcase" version out.
Which is where PCLInuxOS and Mepis come to the fore. Not so much of a "this is the way we should all go", more of a "this is a great place to start".
Read the whole commentIs there such a thing as knowledge free computing? (Meaning point and click - no need to learn anything about anything).
Should Microsoft have encouraged people to think there was such a thing? (If indeed that's what they've done).
How many people will turn away when they realise they are going to have to learn something?
Has microsoft done anyone any favours (by making computing a widely available opportunity) or just made a rod for our backs? (Why isn't it simple? Where's the "set my PC up for me wizard"?)
If a user who has never installed an OS before tries Ubuntu, at what point will they get confused? The point at which it asks for a hostname? Or the partitioner? Or the "is your time set to UTC?" bit. Or all three? What about when they try to access multimedia content in a webpage and get "no plugins found" messages? Or when they try to play a DVD?
helios and devnet are concerned with a new users very first impression, for it's this impression that will go on to impact their experience, and effect how they relate that experience to those around them. If such a new user comes back with "within 5 minutes it was asking me stuff I've never heard of before" then another OEM Windows box is sold and another handful of people hear that "this linux isn't as friendly as it's hyped up to be".
When you go to the local computer shop (as a non technical buyer) you see display pc's setup for you to look at. They are usually playing a film or a game or something to show them off. The fact that MS don't provide all the drivers needed is transparent to the buyer, as is the way Windows installs. (And plenty would run a mile if they knew). Because the shops don't tend to have Linux boxes setup correctly the OSS community is left to sort it's own "showcase" version out.
Which is where PCLInuxOS and Mepis come to the fore. Not so much of a "this is the way we should all go", more of a "this is a great place to start".
Quoting:All of which is preferrable to an 800x600 BROWN desktop where there's NO browser plugins installed by default and that's IF you can work your way through the installer.
Just so I'm clear, you're saying you think that the average new user would rather have a desktop that doesn't start up and not have their sound card recognized than have the resolution that most people use anyway, have it be brown and not have the ability to view some multimedia via the web?
Sal:
> All of which is also preferrable to Windows Live CD's, if there were such a thing, they'd cost £20 a piece and there'd be several diffferent types per manufacturer, and there'd be no net functionality and mostly they wouldn't work and they'd over write parts of the hard drive and would crash constantly.
To be fair to the Windows technical folks, you're overstating the issue. Take a look at http://www.ubcd4win.com/ before you make any judgements about the possibilites for a Windows Live CD. The only real requirement is that you already have to have a license for Windows XP.
That said, I agree that PCLinuxOS and SimplyMepis are better "total newbie" introductions than Ubuntu. They're still not perfect, but they're closer to what we need.
> All of which is also preferrable to Windows Live CD's, if there were such a thing, they'd cost £20 a piece and there'd be several diffferent types per manufacturer, and there'd be no net functionality and mostly they wouldn't work and they'd over write parts of the hard drive and would crash constantly.
To be fair to the Windows technical folks, you're overstating the issue. Take a look at http://www.ubcd4win.com/ before you make any judgements about the possibilites for a Windows Live CD. The only real requirement is that you already have to have a license for Windows XP.
That said, I agree that PCLinuxOS and SimplyMepis are better "total newbie" introductions than Ubuntu. They're still not perfect, but they're closer to what we need.
jdixon
"All of which is also preferrable to Windows Live CD's, if there were such a thing, they'd cost £20 a piece and there'd be several diffferent types per manufacturer, and there'd be no net functionality and mostly they wouldn't work and they'd over write parts of the hard drive and would crash constantly."
Implicit in this is the presumption that said live CD's were produced by MS rather than by enthusiastic users and was a backhanded swipe at MS.
SFN "Just so I'm clear, you're saying you think that the average new user would rather have a desktop that doesn't start up and not have their sound card recognized than have the resolution that most people use anyway, have it be brown and not have the ability to view some multimedia via the web?"
Are there only the 2 alternatives?
No, there's more than that, there the other two distros we're talking about, both of which come with bucket loads of plugins and are still free and arguably much easier on the new user. Which was the point in the first place.
Nobody is knocking Ubuntu. It's just that some folks have noticed that in some areas Ubuntu is NOT newbie friendly at all and that that in turn could sour the experience for some. All the original post said was, "I disagree that Ubuntu is best and here's why".
From my own experience where Ubuntu comes into it's own is with it's community on the user lists. I've heard more than a couple of complaints about Mepis and have never looked into PCLINuxOS community (though if folks like devnet and helios are there it must be pretty good), The Ubuntu community - last time I was there, some months ago now, was friendly, helpful and very patient with new users.
Read the whole commentImplicit in this is the presumption that said live CD's were produced by MS rather than by enthusiastic users and was a backhanded swipe at MS.
SFN "Just so I'm clear, you're saying you think that the average new user would rather have a desktop that doesn't start up and not have their sound card recognized than have the resolution that most people use anyway, have it be brown and not have the ability to view some multimedia via the web?"
Are there only the 2 alternatives?
No, there's more than that, there the other two distros we're talking about, both of which come with bucket loads of plugins and are still free and arguably much easier on the new user. Which was the point in the first place.
Nobody is knocking Ubuntu. It's just that some folks have noticed that in some areas Ubuntu is NOT newbie friendly at all and that that in turn could sour the experience for some. All the original post said was, "I disagree that Ubuntu is best and here's why".
From my own experience where Ubuntu comes into it's own is with it's community on the user lists. I've heard more than a couple of complaints about Mepis and have never looked into PCLINuxOS community (though if folks like devnet and helios are there it must be pretty good), The Ubuntu community - last time I was there, some months ago now, was friendly, helpful and very patient with new users.
Sal:
> Implicit in this is the presumption that said live CD's were produced by MS rather than by enthusiastic users...
Ok, point granted then. :)
> Implicit in this is the presumption that said live CD's were produced by MS rather than by enthusiastic users...
Ok, point granted then. :)
Quoting:Are there only the 2 alternatives?
No, not at all. There are gobs of options. That's one of the great things about using Linux. However, your response to my story about SimplyMEPIS failing some very basic hardware detection was to say
Quoting:All of which is preferrable to an 800x600 BROWN desktop where there's NO browser plugins installed by default and that's IF you can work your way through the installer.
In what way is that preferable to a new user?
Ubuntu doesn't make the pen on my tablet pc work. I have to go and hack the xorg.conf file to make it work.
Ubuntu does have an nvidia driver but they keep quiet about it and you have to go looking via apt-cache search or synaptic to find it - Mepis offers it during install.
The point being, Ubuntu misses some hardware and has a less than ideal installer - even if it is initially simialr to the XP Installer.
Is there an operating system on the face of the earth that supports all hardware out of the box?
My response about brownness wasn't precisely in answer to your point about Mepis and hardware. Just that I think Mepis is a better solution for the "never tried Linux before" folks. Perhaps it would be better if I added the following, ...best solution for those who never tried Linux before and have little if any experience of maintenance/installing an OS.
Is there an operating system on the face of the earth that supports all hardware out of the box?
My response about brownness wasn't precisely in answer to your point about Mepis and hardware. Just that I think Mepis is a better solution for the "never tried Linux before" folks. Perhaps it would be better if I added the following, ...best solution for those who never tried Linux before and have little if any experience of maintenance/installing an OS.
OK. I thought your response was directed at my comment as opposed to Ubuntu overall.
I'm giving PCLinuxOS another try now. I'm trying to get my wife to stop using Windows as I end up having to wipe her system and reinstall everything a couple of times per year.
I'm looking for the least headache in terms of her use of it. She won't be installing it herself so how easy it is to get running won't be an issue. However, I generally feel the KDE gives windows users a more familiar feel than Gnome. Although I love Ubuntu I still seem to find issues with Kubuntu. Becasue of that, PCLinuxOS looks somewhat attractive in this situation.
I'm giving PCLinuxOS another try now. I'm trying to get my wife to stop using Windows as I end up having to wipe her system and reinstall everything a couple of times per year.
I'm looking for the least headache in terms of her use of it. She won't be installing it herself so how easy it is to get running won't be an issue. However, I generally feel the KDE gives windows users a more familiar feel than Gnome. Although I love Ubuntu I still seem to find issues with Kubuntu. Becasue of that, PCLinuxOS looks somewhat attractive in this situation.
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As some know, and many more do not, Lobby4linux will be sponsoring/spearheading the first-ever community driven advertising campaign for Linux. I have been flamed to a cinder for choosing PCLinuxOS as the featured distro. We will also feature SimplyMepis and a couple others...both for their noob friendliness and because they run well as live cd's.
Over 250 replies/emails to the announcement screamed, "Whyyy Nottt Ubuntuuuuuuu! Devnet makes our point clearly thank you. While PCLinuxOS is technically listed as "beta" "experimental" software, it still outperforms most any distro for the new Linux User. While some above me believe that the new linux user should suffer the slings and arrows of Noob-dom, I disagree. Besides, with the guidance of the pclinuxos wiki and the soon-to-go-online MyFistLinux.com, people will know exactly why there are the differences between Windows and Linux. It is explained on the MFL website in detail.
Thank you Mr. Devnet for so succinctly saying what thousands of us have been thinking. I applaud Shuttleworth for his work and I both envy and thank him. With his billions, I friggin' refuse to spend community donated dollars to advertise HIS distro. If he wants to promote Ubuntu via TV and radio, I believe he has the means.
helios http://www.lobby4linux.com/WordPress http://www.lobby4linux.com