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A Call to Distros: Give Users What They Want
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Comments (29)
The horns of the dilemna.
1 earlier comment in the full thread.
the 'article' wasn't worth a thought in the first place. Just mindless babble...
>The only way (?) to tackle this is to create a user base of people who WILL NOT use proprietary code/cs yet who vociferously demand access regardless.
Therein lies the rub. You create code. You don't create a user base. You attract it. If you don't make something people want to use, people won't use it. That can be approached two ways:
1. Alter your something to be more desirable, or
2. Effectively communicate why your something really is something people want to use.
Number 2 only works if it's true. You might get a lot of looks followed by a bad rep you'll never live down if it's not.
One thing you don't do is call all the people you want to join your user base a bunch of lemmings, idiots, losers, lazy bums,etc. That tends not to be very enticing.
Therein lies the rub. You create code. You don't create a user base. You attract it. If you don't make something people want to use, people won't use it. That can be approached two ways:
1. Alter your something to be more desirable, or
2. Effectively communicate why your something really is something people want to use.
Number 2 only works if it's true. You might get a lot of looks followed by a bad rep you'll never live down if it's not.
One thing you don't do is call all the people you want to join your user base a bunch of lemmings, idiots, losers, lazy bums,etc. That tends not to be very enticing.
I don't have a problem with the article, I have a problem with this...
A journalist gives her precious advice to GNU/Linux distributors: "Convert your distros into ms windows or mac os, then it'll sell and I'll buy it. I don't care about freedom anyway, it's just that using ms s/w is uncool. I'd rather be in chains than be uncool. Penguins are so cute they must be cool. Otherwise, I don't have a clue."
Inflammatory nonsense. I'm surprised this got posted.
A journalist gives her precious advice to GNU/Linux distributors: "Convert your distros into ms windows or mac os, then it'll sell and I'll buy it. I don't care about freedom anyway, it's just that using ms s/w is uncool. I'd rather be in chains than be uncool. Penguins are so cute they must be cool. Otherwise, I don't have a clue."
Inflammatory nonsense. I'm surprised this got posted.
aye, that comment was from me. It reflects my opinion about the article and its author. Thanks, sal.
Request to the editor: Next time you censor my written works, please ask for my permission or don't post it at all. I can understand that the first and last paragraph were removed, but you should have informed me in advance.
Request to the editor: Next time you censor my written works, please ask for my permission or don't post it at all. I can understand that the first and last paragraph were removed, but you should have informed me in advance.
Quoting:We have to decide whether we are making an OS for above average geeks or an OS to "set people free from proprietary nonsense". If it's the latter then Linux needs an overhaul and needs to take a leaf from Freespires book. If not then carry on as you were, but forget completely the idea that Linux will ever be anything other than a hobbyists tool or a server.
Love that line above...it's absolutely 100% true. Politics, culture, and licenses fly out the door when a new user comes across. Our target audience for Linux MUST change if we want it to grow...any business/project must adapt to changing audience/customer expectations to grow.
Some probably are saying, "we don't need Linux to grow"
I'd say you're an elitist snob. Linux growing would allow everyone to be in charge of their computing...it puts the user in the driver seat, gives them freedoms that they don't have...and allows them to eventually become immersed in the FOSS/FLOSS culture. I say that is the idea...get people interested first, then barrage them with idealology later.
Quoting:get people interested first, then barrage them with idealology later.
Definately. I think that's how most of us got to Linux in the first place. At least I did.
sander -
Same here.
The funny thing is, if you use Linux long enough, the ideology kind of creeps in whether you want it to or not.
You like being able to get whatever software you need when you need it. You like being able to fix a problem -- whether you are able to fix the code, or you simply find out about somebody's fix and you go get it.
When things get in your way, you know that something isn't right -- that your ordinary freedom is being compromised.
You may not know exactly what to call it, you may not even know when, how, or even that it happened, but you've internalized a whole buncha freedom-thinking.
Same here.
The funny thing is, if you use Linux long enough, the ideology kind of creeps in whether you want it to or not.
You like being able to get whatever software you need when you need it. You like being able to fix a problem -- whether you are able to fix the code, or you simply find out about somebody's fix and you go get it.
When things get in your way, you know that something isn't right -- that your ordinary freedom is being compromised.
You may not know exactly what to call it, you may not even know when, how, or even that it happened, but you've internalized a whole buncha freedom-thinking.
I don't understand all the ranting against "ideology", unless you're thinking of the foamy-mouthed zealots who know better for everyone else. Ideology is what drives FOSS (and everything else in the world.) Ubuntu is the Cool Linux because of its ideology. It's even expressed in the name- "humanity to others."
The ideology of FOSS is, in a nutshell, the same rights and freedoms that we are accustomed to in other industries- multiple competing brands and vendors, interoperability, the right to use our possessions as we see fit. FOSS follows the natural evolution in any product cycle- a new product is expensive and exclusive. Then imitators follow, and we get many brands and versions. Then prices drop, features increase. Then third-party parts and accessories. Then a second-hand market. Then continual improvements and variations.
Proprietary software took this away from use. Prices stay high, vendor-lockin is the rule, quality remains shoddy, and the second-hand software market was killed thanks to Microsoft and other big proprietary vendors.
I'm thinking if people are turned off to the ideology it's the delivery, rather than the message that's to blame. When did "freedom" become a dirty word?
BTW I wouldn't call Eugenia Loli-Queru a journalist. An opinionated person who I believe founded OSNews, a professional flame-baiter. But not a journalist in the traditional sense of the word.
The ideology of FOSS is, in a nutshell, the same rights and freedoms that we are accustomed to in other industries- multiple competing brands and vendors, interoperability, the right to use our possessions as we see fit. FOSS follows the natural evolution in any product cycle- a new product is expensive and exclusive. Then imitators follow, and we get many brands and versions. Then prices drop, features increase. Then third-party parts and accessories. Then a second-hand market. Then continual improvements and variations.
Proprietary software took this away from use. Prices stay high, vendor-lockin is the rule, quality remains shoddy, and the second-hand software market was killed thanks to Microsoft and other big proprietary vendors.
I'm thinking if people are turned off to the ideology it's the delivery, rather than the message that's to blame. When did "freedom" become a dirty word?
BTW I wouldn't call Eugenia Loli-Queru a journalist. An opinionated person who I believe founded OSNews, a professional flame-baiter. But not a journalist in the traditional sense of the word.
Quoting:When did "freedom" become a dirty word?
It didn't. But to someone looking to escape Windows it's not a selling point. Having superior applications and very little security problems is. *We* know that it's the ideology that drives Linux, but we have forgotten that most of us got pulled into Linux because of the rumors of "a superior OS that's totally free (beer)". Sure, we knew the freedom bit too - somewhat. But we only learned the true nature of the ideology after running Linux and having been exposed to the community for a while.
Dino's example is spot on. You install Linux. You run it for a bit and before you know it you're totally used to grabbing everything you need off the net through your package manager - because that's just "the way it works". The realisation that this is true freedom only comes when such a user tries something different (troubleshooting a friend's Windows PC for example) and proprietry crap gets in his way. At that moment he's enlightened :-)
The 'article' as such is just stupid. As tuxchick says, Eugenia Loli-Queru is hardly a journalist, and the piece is primarily flame bait backed up by a dubious windows straw poll,
Certainly we want to make Linux a better OS, certainly we want to increase the number of Linux users, but at what cost? I certainly am not willing to have Linux become a clone of XP or Vista. If that's elitist devnet, I'm happy to clam the title.
Not even getting into the GPL or 'freedoms' aspects of it, the unwritten tradition in Linux has always been to give back to the community, 'each according to his abilities'. A large part of that is assisting others to become proficient in set up, management and use of the Linux environment. In Windows, that's more like 'each according to what you can afford to purchase from MS, and the help aspect is also a commodity. I think it's entirely insulting to new Linux users to say that they 'won't get that' , for the most part, pretty quickly. I also point out to new users that Linux is 'different' from Windows and will require that they learn new things. No matter how 'easy' we make Linux for the new user, that will still be true. I've never encountered a new user who can't understand that. Nearly all of them want to learn, and then share that information with others.
If one looks at a Windows install, we find that it's primarily a text based install, with many many parts to add to the basic OS after that's been installed, and many settings to be resolved. I'd also like to point out that any functions in Windows are learned, and have nothing to do with intuitive, so, what makes anyone think that it will be different for Linux?
Many of the Linux Distros offer live CDs, and the installs are either good and easily understood text based, or GUI. Nearly all of them provide a basic and completely set up desktop. Immediate productivity, and a way to immediately and easily add new apps. If you do have problems with the install or setup, there are scores of forums and IRC channels where one can (again) get immediate help and advise. All of that is a far cry from what I've ever gotten from MS.
There will probably be Windows fanboyz forever. MS is very good at promoting their garbage. As Lincoln said "you can fool some of the people all of the time", but, sooner or later those not in that group will come over to Linux (or at least mac). In the mean time let's not fall into the the 'give them what they want, and, damn the ethics' trap. In most cases, new users think they 'know what they want', but, haven't a clue about 'what they need'. It is only right that we show them 'what is possible'.
Read the whole commentCertainly we want to make Linux a better OS, certainly we want to increase the number of Linux users, but at what cost? I certainly am not willing to have Linux become a clone of XP or Vista. If that's elitist devnet, I'm happy to clam the title.
Not even getting into the GPL or 'freedoms' aspects of it, the unwritten tradition in Linux has always been to give back to the community, 'each according to his abilities'. A large part of that is assisting others to become proficient in set up, management and use of the Linux environment. In Windows, that's more like 'each according to what you can afford to purchase from MS, and the help aspect is also a commodity. I think it's entirely insulting to new Linux users to say that they 'won't get that' , for the most part, pretty quickly. I also point out to new users that Linux is 'different' from Windows and will require that they learn new things. No matter how 'easy' we make Linux for the new user, that will still be true. I've never encountered a new user who can't understand that. Nearly all of them want to learn, and then share that information with others.
If one looks at a Windows install, we find that it's primarily a text based install, with many many parts to add to the basic OS after that's been installed, and many settings to be resolved. I'd also like to point out that any functions in Windows are learned, and have nothing to do with intuitive, so, what makes anyone think that it will be different for Linux?
Many of the Linux Distros offer live CDs, and the installs are either good and easily understood text based, or GUI. Nearly all of them provide a basic and completely set up desktop. Immediate productivity, and a way to immediately and easily add new apps. If you do have problems with the install or setup, there are scores of forums and IRC channels where one can (again) get immediate help and advise. All of that is a far cry from what I've ever gotten from MS.
There will probably be Windows fanboyz forever. MS is very good at promoting their garbage. As Lincoln said "you can fool some of the people all of the time", but, sooner or later those not in that group will come over to Linux (or at least mac). In the mean time let's not fall into the the 'give them what they want, and, damn the ethics' trap. In most cases, new users think they 'know what they want', but, haven't a clue about 'what they need'. It is only right that we show them 'what is possible'.
Quoting:If one looks at a Windows install, we find that it's primarily a text based install, with many many parts to add to the basic OS after that's been installed, and many settings to be resolved. I'd also like to point out that any functions in Windows are learned, and have nothing to do with intuitive, so, what makes anyone think that it will be different for Linux?
The very first time I ever installed Linux I said to myself, "Well, it can't be worse than Windows"
It was not only 'not worse' but kinda fun, at least for me. Who hear doesn't enjoy trying out new distro's all the time? Just seeing how the different distro's installer works is interesting.
I tell people that Linux is different, its secure, its stable and it will open that old Word 98' poem from High School. I got more people to try Open Source Software on that selling point alone. Opening documents, I kid you not.
Linux installers are light-years ahead of all other operating systems. LiveCDs, bootable USBs. Gumstix, net installs... and it's easy. At most one reboot. Y'all are spoiled. I dare you to perform a fresh winduz XP install. I double-dog dare you. You'll cry, I promise.
> You'll cry, I promise
And I have, many times :(
And I have, many times :(
I agree with the installers bit. Can you use Windows while you run your upgrade process in the background? That's what I did with Ubuntu.
> I double-dog dare you.
Ooohh! The double-dog dare! No 'real' admin can turn it down without risking deep shame. Say, anyone got $300 I can have to buy a new copy of Winduz? No? Oh well. I tried.
> I double-dog dare you.
Ooohh! The double-dog dare! No 'real' admin can turn it down without risking deep shame. Say, anyone got $300 I can have to buy a new copy of Winduz? No? Oh well. I tried.
Well, I convinced myself that maybe a pure OS was worth a good try. I've always installed all the extras on Linux (nvidia drivers, codecs and so on) and have happily been able to access 98% of what I found.
But the idea that this is not real freedom has sort of taken a hold.
So I've switched to blag linux.
Gulp!
So I've switched to blag linux.
Gulp!
> Gulp!
So, it's cold turkey huh :D
So, it's cold turkey huh :D
Hmmmm.
Sometimes it feels that way.
I get sent links to crap on utube, killsometime etc and always feel slightly dirty after viewing them. Take away the ability to view them and I get annoyed. (Damn that contrariness!)
What surprised me was that after installing blag I can still view 99% of the political/social films I have. It's only the .wmv's that are out of bounds, but since most of what I have is in avi/mov/mpg format I'm ok.
The majority of the web is a bit like fast food, you know it's crap that is making you ill but you get such a rush off the chemicals, fats and sugars that the tendency is to keep going back for more. Eat a wholefood meal with none of the additives and you feel clean and wonderful. Until the next time the fastfood shakes come along.
So yes, cold turkey is not a bad explanation at all.
I get sent links to crap on utube, killsometime etc and always feel slightly dirty after viewing them. Take away the ability to view them and I get annoyed. (Damn that contrariness!)
What surprised me was that after installing blag I can still view 99% of the political/social films I have. It's only the .wmv's that are out of bounds, but since most of what I have is in avi/mov/mpg format I'm ok.
The majority of the web is a bit like fast food, you know it's crap that is making you ill but you get such a rush off the chemicals, fats and sugars that the tendency is to keep going back for more. Eat a wholefood meal with none of the additives and you feel clean and wonderful. Until the next time the fastfood shakes come along.
So yes, cold turkey is not a bad explanation at all.
Hmm... doesn't gnash work with YouTube and Google Video these days? If not, that should really be their top priority.
...and always feel slightly dirty after viewing them.
It's mostly people being stupid or hurting themselves.
I only need to look out the window...
It's mostly people being stupid or hurting themselves.
I only need to look out the window...
> doesn't gnash work with YouTube and Google Video these days? If not, that should really be their top priority.
I spent some time with it last night, and, it absolutely 'will not' do YouTube and Google Video. I agree with you, this is a top priority if we want to get the macromedia monkey off our backs.
I spent some time with it last night, and, it absolutely 'will not' do YouTube and Google Video. I agree with you, this is a top priority if we want to get the macromedia monkey off our backs.
Forget freedom?
I say toss the guy in an 4m square cell and feed him twice a day for 10 years and then ask him again about freedom? Oh and he mentioned chains so perhaps shackle him too?
I really have no time left for people who want to toss away their freedom except in so far they need to be farmed to a different outlook as part of safe guarding my freedom into the future.
I really have no time left for people who want to toss away their freedom except in so far they need to be farmed to a different outlook as part of safe guarding my freedom into the future.
If you throw a guy in that cell you've kidnapped the wrong person- Eugenia isn't a man. :)
pw: Oops!
Linch mob mentality strikes again :D
I do agree with the sentiment. Especially when you look at her list of "must-have" applications. Adobe Reader? Get real- it's spyware, it's a multi-megabyte hog, and there are several good FOSS alternatives. WiFi drivers and firmwares? dawww, just purchase devices with the very well-supported Atheros chipsets, or the pretty-well supported Prism chipsets. Opera?? WTF?? Have we suddenly run out of quality web browsers?
and so forth...
and so forth...
TC, there is little you and I have disagreed upon in the realm of FOSS, but let us speak of Opera for a bit if we may...
I only speak in the collective as I feel a gang-slapping coming. (circa 1980 "Airplane". Sans the bit where the passengers line up to assault the hysterical woman...one of the funniest bits ever committed to film.
In the past month or so, a well-written article appeared on these pages titled something to the affect of "Why is Firefox broken in Linux." Pardon my laziness for not physically finding it, but it is here, I am sure. I found myself nodding throughout the piece as I have encountered the exact phenomenon the author notes. Here is one small but important example, at least important to me.
I spend an inordinate amount of time on my computer as you and many of us do. As such, I find that mouse gestures is invaluable as a tool. Since programming my side buttons (a:) never sticks through an X restart or reboot and (b:) is a major pain in the glutes, MG is worth its poundage in gold to me. Try it yourself. In Firefox Linux, the mouse gestures are either slow or must be "double-clutched" in order to work. In Ffox windows, it is as smooth as a mirror...exactly as smooth in Opera Linux. Now granted, it is pre-programmed in Opera and not an addable extension, but to me that does not matter. I severely miss the many extensions I use in Firefox and do use FFox for those tasks where the extensions are needed, but only for those tasks. read: a visit to youtube, ahem).
It seems that my particular combination of "must-have" extensions severely breaks Gecko...every friggin time. I simply do not have time for that. I think the author of this piece is way off base concerning FOSS vs non-free software but as in everything, there are exceptions and Opera is my exception. Gecko, under heavy use, is not the engine for my brower, at least for Linux Use. When Firefox can work as well in Linux as it does in Windows (Man that makes my stomach churn to say) then I will be an opera user.
and for the record, Opera's mail client - M2...?
Sux
h
Read the whole commentI only speak in the collective as I feel a gang-slapping coming. (circa 1980 "Airplane". Sans the bit where the passengers line up to assault the hysterical woman...one of the funniest bits ever committed to film.
In the past month or so, a well-written article appeared on these pages titled something to the affect of "Why is Firefox broken in Linux." Pardon my laziness for not physically finding it, but it is here, I am sure. I found myself nodding throughout the piece as I have encountered the exact phenomenon the author notes. Here is one small but important example, at least important to me.
I spend an inordinate amount of time on my computer as you and many of us do. As such, I find that mouse gestures is invaluable as a tool. Since programming my side buttons (a:) never sticks through an X restart or reboot and (b:) is a major pain in the glutes, MG is worth its poundage in gold to me. Try it yourself. In Firefox Linux, the mouse gestures are either slow or must be "double-clutched" in order to work. In Ffox windows, it is as smooth as a mirror...exactly as smooth in Opera Linux. Now granted, it is pre-programmed in Opera and not an addable extension, but to me that does not matter. I severely miss the many extensions I use in Firefox and do use FFox for those tasks where the extensions are needed, but only for those tasks. read: a visit to youtube, ahem).
It seems that my particular combination of "must-have" extensions severely breaks Gecko...every friggin time. I simply do not have time for that. I think the author of this piece is way off base concerning FOSS vs non-free software but as in everything, there are exceptions and Opera is my exception. Gecko, under heavy use, is not the engine for my brower, at least for Linux Use. When Firefox can work as well in Linux as it does in Windows (Man that makes my stomach churn to say) then I will be an opera user.
and for the record, Opera's mail client - M2...?
Sux
h
I guess the main problem I have with Eugenia's article is that all the proprietary apps that she suggests should be included in a default Linux install *aren't* included in a default Windows install. Talk about a huge double standard.
I guess I'm out of the loop, as far as proprietary apps are concerned. I wouldn't miss Adobe Reader in a million years. It's a bloated piece of crud and the latest KPDF reader has all the functions of the latest Reader.
As far as hardware with working drivers go, it's not much different than shopping for a Mac. Do a little bit of research beforehand to find a supported chipset. I want native Wifi drivers like anyone else, but ndiswrapper is a powerful interim solution and they've worked most of the freeze-bugs out of it, and the install script that comes on Knoppix makes installation of Windows NDIS drivers about as mindless as it can get.
The only proprietary things I miss out on are the things related to web browsing and playing web content-- Flash, Java, and Windows Media audio and video (and also DVD playing), and those things can be gotten very easily.
With the exception of iTunes, I feel as though those who are calling for more proprietary products in Linux are overstating the problem.
I guess I'm out of the loop, as far as proprietary apps are concerned. I wouldn't miss Adobe Reader in a million years. It's a bloated piece of crud and the latest KPDF reader has all the functions of the latest Reader.
As far as hardware with working drivers go, it's not much different than shopping for a Mac. Do a little bit of research beforehand to find a supported chipset. I want native Wifi drivers like anyone else, but ndiswrapper is a powerful interim solution and they've worked most of the freeze-bugs out of it, and the install script that comes on Knoppix makes installation of Windows NDIS drivers about as mindless as it can get.
The only proprietary things I miss out on are the things related to web browsing and playing web content-- Flash, Java, and Windows Media audio and video (and also DVD playing), and those things can be gotten very easily.
With the exception of iTunes, I feel as though those who are calling for more proprietary products in Linux are overstating the problem.
"I do agree with the sentiment. Especially when you look at her list of "must-have" applications. Adobe Reader? Get real- it's spyware, it's a multi-megabyte hog, and there are several good FOSS alternatives. WiFi drivers and firmwares? dawww, just purchase devices with the very well-supported Atheros chipsets, or the pretty-well supported Prism chipsets. Opera?? WTF?? Have we suddenly run out of quality web browsers?
and so forth..."
totally totally totally agree with TC. WTF why did adobe go from a 30 meg download to around 100 meg download in one version jump. SPYWARE -
I get rid of that thing first chance I get. So I wish more ditros would get rid of adobe.
Konqueror and evince work just fine for me - I am really liking evince it is really nice and clean and makes the documents look great.
this author is a joke - don't even know where to begin.
and so forth..."
totally totally totally agree with TC. WTF why did adobe go from a 30 meg download to around 100 meg download in one version jump. SPYWARE -
I get rid of that thing first chance I get. So I wish more ditros would get rid of adobe.
Konqueror and evince work just fine for me - I am really liking evince it is really nice and clean and makes the documents look great.
this author is a joke - don't even know where to begin.
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