For those that want to actually DO something
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| wind0wsr3fund Jul 25, 2006 10:08 AM EDT |
Please do not post here if you want to debate the issue. This thread is for do'ers, not debaters. Please post here if you want to take some action. Of course, you can always reach me at http://windowsrefund.info if you'd prefer. |
| NoDough Jul 25, 2006 10:15 AM EDT |
wind0wsr3fund: I've noticed the windowsrefund.info link in several of your posts. IMHO, you would do better to link to the FAQ http://windowsrefund.info/index.php?name=FAQ or the HOWTO http://windowsrefund.info/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&f... . The home page isn't intuitively navigable for the newcomer. |
| tuxchick2 Jul 25, 2006 10:15 AM EDT |
I think larding the thread with pointless complaining and repetition would be a nice bit of karma. But I guess I won't. |
| wind0wsr3fund Jul 25, 2006 10:20 AM EDT |
tuxchick2, please go away, this thread is for people that actually do something besides troll on forums. NoDough, I like the site :) |
| sbergman27 Jul 25, 2006 10:33 AM EDT |
Somehow I find Carla's numerous and always-helpful articles on the nuts and bolts of how I can use, deploy, and generally get the most out of FOSS to be more productive and beneficial to the community than a constant harping on Free vs Nonfree and an obsession with the so-called (and somewhat mythical) "Microsoft Tax". I've been wanting to say this for a while. I've typed it many times over the past weeks. And I've backspaced over it many times over the past weeks. But Winney, here it goes: EITHER GET A LIFE... OR GET SOME TACT! I don't care which. Just one or the other. There. I feel better now. |
| r_a_trip Jul 25, 2006 10:33 AM EDT |
Do something? Like what? Build your own systems? (Already do that). Trying to return the Windows disk and get some chump change? Returning Windows disk for a refund is only alerting MS that the "rats are getting ready to jump ship". Keep that Windows disk. It is a small investment in keeping MS complacent. Keep that Windows disk, but install GNU/Linux and don't buy third party Win32 software. Win32 development houses will get the message, Microsoft will remain oblivious. Before MS knows it, their "developers, developers, developers" are all writing GNU/Linux software. |
| NoDough Jul 25, 2006 10:33 AM EDT |
wind0wsr3fund: TC2 is NOT a troll. I like the site too. However, I think its design is biased to the frequent visitor rather than the newcomer. It's just my opinion, but I guarantee that it's worth what you paid. ;-) |
| Scott_Ruecker Jul 25, 2006 10:44 AM EDT |
Hey Win, TC2 is as far from a troll as you can get. As much as I see you on this site, I would think that you know that. Any thread that does not invite discussion is not a thread to participate in. |
| wind0wsr3fund Jul 25, 2006 10:55 AM EDT |
NoDough, Thanks for the suggesion. I wasn't shooting it down at all and am always open to feedback. Everyone else, You have just successfully wasted a good thread meant for people who are tired of sitting around debating while the problem worsens. Of allllllllllllllllllll the threads on lxer.com, you just had to jump on and take up space by posting ...........nothing. This is why the WR problem continues and why Microsoft, along with their gang of vendors, are laughing all the way to the bank. You can post to as many threads and forums as you want but ask yourself... What have you actually DONE to try and solve this problem? Unless you are one of the few that I can actually name off the top of my head, your posts are just that...... posts. Big deal. So keep complaining and whining about Microsoft taking your money for products you never asked for and have no intention of using. Keep whining about the 90% market share that windows claims in the desktop space, keep posting while taking no real action to solve the problem. When you're ready to actually DO SOMETHING concrete, get in touch. If I'm not too busy and can be convinced that you are really prepared to get up off the couch, I may decide to get busy with this campaign again. Until then, I'm not going to fight a 1 man battle. Consider this my final post on this thread. |
| sbergman27 Jul 25, 2006 11:02 AM EDT |
> Consider this my final post on this thread. At precisely 19:02:00 UTC on Jul 25, 2006, Steve Bergman, a resident of Oklahoma City, OK, began holding his breath. |
| dinotrac Jul 25, 2006 11:26 AM EDT |
> Consider this my final post on this thread. Steve, I feel your pain. Personally, blackness has descended upon my heart and I feel like there is no tomorrow. Oh woe, why live? |
| tuxchick2 Jul 25, 2006 11:52 AM EDT |
hey this is cool, I finally get to try out my shiny new defibrillator! A bit of grease...wait for the charge... smile in a comforting fashion...hey, where are you going? Come back! Chickens! I'm here to help! |
| dinotrac Jul 25, 2006 12:02 PM EDT |
>I'm here to help! Sure (cough) you are... (gasp, wheeze) |
| grouch Jul 25, 2006 1:05 PM EDT |
sbergman27: One nit: free (libre) vs. non-free is not a trivial matter. See Sony BMG, for a typical example of attacking users via non-free software. |
| r_a_trip Jul 25, 2006 1:40 PM EDT |
What have you actually DONE to try and solve this problem? What problem? That YOU don't seem to like the idea of Windows bundling and that you can't get enough people on your bandwagon to give MS the refund willies? The GNU/Linux community has bigger problems to solve, like actually getting real user percentages in the market. You are preaching to 3% of computer users, that already ditched MS and have forgotten about the dusty MS disks lying somewhere in the cupboard. 90% of all computer users will just declare you insane for suggesting the refund option. They want Windows. Most of them do everything in their power to get bootleg copies of that OS. The bitter truth is that these users just think GNU/Linux users are annoying, whiny zealots with nothing better to do than dis their OS of choice. So you are in essence suggesting that a drop in the ocean should start a "revolution" by returning a laughable amount of Windows licenses. Dream on. Refusing the Windows disk is useless if there is no significant body to make a difference. (No believe me, the body is insignificant at this point.) Old style GNU/Linux advocacy is still needed more than wasting time on small amounts of OEM licensing fees. Besides all this in the consumer market, the real breakthrough for GNU/Linux will come from the government and corporate markets. |
| sbergman27 Jul 25, 2006 2:30 PM EDT |
Grouch, Indeed, nontrivial. But there is a difference between "non-trivial" and "all-consuming". Caring is effective. Obsessing is not. |
| jimf Jul 25, 2006 2:38 PM EDT |
r_a_trip wrote:
> You are preaching to 3% of computer users That's an 'estimate' from 2004 and a questionable one at that. Because most Desktop users don't 'buy' linux, it's difficult to even estimate any actual number or percentage. What I've observed in forum activity, advocacy, and just talking to people in my community would indicate that percentage to be much higher and growing at an astounding rate. As a wild guess, I'd say we are already over 6%, and, very likely more, but again, that's only a guess. sbergman wrote: > At precisely 19:02:00 UTC on Jul 25, 2006, Steve Bergman, a resident of Oklahoma City, OK, began holding his breath. Not worth it Steve. wind0wsr3fund has already stated several times that he is gonna save us 'whether we want it or not', and doesn't want debate or comment on his proclamations. As a self proclaimed zealot, he's pretty much eliminated his credibility. |
| vonskippy Jul 25, 2006 2:50 PM EDT |
Hard to believe that Suits the world over aren't jumping on the Linux band wagon with freaks like wind0wsr3fund leading the parade. Business people don't ask "what can I do to solve the problem", business people say "what are you doing to solve MY problems", and are willing to pay for those solutions. Unlike whiny little os freaks, business people have a life, it's called business, and they don't have time to worry about who makes the tools they need to get the job done. You can count on the fact that the second Linux is a better ROI then Windows, businesses will drop Windows like a lead balloon. Microsoft has it's current market share because currently it's the more profitable IT solution for most businesses. The fact that Linux and Mac's are gaining market share shows that it's not a religious following that makes Microsoft successful, it's the fact that they understand what businesses need, and then they provide it. So if you really want to promote Linux wind0wsr3fund, do the Community a favor and STFU, you make Linux look like a collection of amateur freaks instead of an OS that's worthy of a businesses time and investment to commit to. |
| Libervis Jul 25, 2006 2:52 PM EDT |
You know what I'll do the next time I buy my computer? Exactly what this article suggested. I'll buy a computer without windows at all, hence no need for the whole refund hassle in the first place. And luckily I have quite a nice choice of machines without OS, even GNU/Linux preinstalled, in Croatia, sold at a price lower than the equivalents with Windows XP. :) Oh man I'm increasingly happy I don't live in USA. We actually have more freedom here in Europe (though Croatia isn't *yet* in EU). |
| grouch Jul 25, 2006 3:46 PM EDT |
I "DO" something every day. Additionally, I "DO" something every day to promote computer user freedom. Sometimes this only amounts to slogging through some news articles to find some that are fit to post here. Sometimes it only amounts to an email conversation or posting a comment on a forum. What I don't "DO", and will not "DO", is buy a computer that has MS software on it. |
| dinotrac Jul 25, 2006 3:52 PM EDT |
>What I don't "DO", and will not "DO", is buy a computer that has MS software on it. Why grouch, we seem to have an island of common ground... Except that I had to break that pledge for my wife a couple of years back. We couldn't find any way for her to do her job without Windows because of software her employer requires. It's the only Windows computer I have purchased since 1996. With luck, it will be the last. |
| r_a_trip Jul 25, 2006 4:08 PM EDT |
As a wild guess, I'd say we are already over 6% Which still is zilch compared to the number of Windows users who really want Windows and nothing else. Also, how many users in those 6% care about Refund's case (or is that crusade)? |
| jimf Jul 25, 2006 4:18 PM EDT |
> how many users in those 6% care about Refund's case Not arguing. I personally think that does little or nothing to promote Linux. |
| grouch Jul 25, 2006 4:22 PM EDT |
dinotrac: The monopoly has some of its strongest tentacles into workplaces. I hope that's changing, but witnessed the problem up close at a local independent auto parts store. They had to keep 1 MS XP box because they couldn't get their "jobber" parts and pricing database on anything else. (As an independent, AutoZone was one of their competitors, so they couldn't get the data from there). My last computer with MS on it was a used one I bought around 2000, I think. Both my son and my daughter have to deal with MS at their jobs, though. Thankfully neither has to have it at home. |
| tuxchick2 Jul 25, 2006 4:22 PM EDT |
lies, damned lies, and market share numbers :) Keep in mind that the server and desktop markets are very different. winduhs is a minority shareholder on the server side, though unfortunately they are making gains. But the free nixes are making greater gains, both linux and the BSDs. All are feasting on the corpses of the old commercial Unixes. On the desktop it gets seriously screwy. "Journalists" love to spout "windoze is on 95% of the world's computers." No, it isn't. It's not even on 95% of desktop PCs. Apple has long been reported as holding a 5% share of the desktop market, but we all know it's more than that, maybe 8-9% or more. I can't trot out any shiny studies, but I estimate that Linux/BSD hold 7-10% of the desktop market. Somewhere in there are still a sizable gaggle of Unix workstations; some folks just won't give up their pizza boxes. "Journalists" never bother to count, or even acknowledge the impact of millions of daily free downloads, or dual-boot/re-purposed winderz boxen. I know I'm not the only one here making a nice living from converting older PCs into nice file and printer servers, and sometimes even Linux desktops. So non-windows platforms are a significant minority, and the continual "Linux is too small to matter " croaking is hooey. But you already knew that. |
| grouch Jul 25, 2006 4:29 PM EDT |
"Journalists" believe sales figures whispered in their little ears. All that's good for is determining where the money goes; it has nothing to do with what people use. |
| jimf Jul 25, 2006 5:07 PM EDT |
> it has nothing to do with what people use. Exactly. All of the figures quoted are tied to sales, so, that 10% for desktops could well be twice that. The point is that we just don't know, and, I know of no way to track it accurately. I do know that when I started running Linux the word just got a blank stare, now, nearly everyone is running it, is considering trying it, or has at least heard of it. I'm guessing that's progress. |
| dcparris Jul 25, 2006 5:07 PM EDT |
> I can't trot out any shiny studies, but I estimate that Linux/BSD hold 7-10% of the desktop market. I actually agree with that assessment. |
| Libervis Jul 25, 2006 5:32 PM EDT |
Maybe a better way to estimate GNU/Linux market share is to observe website statistics. I think most systems connected to the net transmit OS information along with the browser information and since most of everyone is connected these days the outcome may be closer to the truth. In essence we could employ the same way that Firefox market share is measured. For example, the market shares among visitors of one of my sites (Libervis.com) is: Windows: 65.7% GNU/Linux: 17.6% Mac: 3.1% For the other site (Nuxified.org) it's like this: Windows: 70.7 % GNU/Linux: 17.8 % Mac: 4.8 % The rest of the percentage falls on "unknown" so we could probably count it as "the rest". At least these seem like more reasonable numbers, though I am not sure considering that most of visitors of these sites should be Free Software supporters, at least to an extent.. I think the overall GNU/Linux market share shouldn't be lower than 10% at this point... |
| dcparris Jul 25, 2006 5:39 PM EDT |
I should clarify. I'm willing to go so far as to guestimate the number of GNU/Linux-only users at @ 5-7%, and the number of dual-booting users at more like 10-12%. |
| Libervis Jul 25, 2006 5:45 PM EDT |
That still beats Macs. :) Btw, the percentages I've posted above are only for July so far. The whole year 2006 results are a bit more positive towards GNU/Linux. I guess we've just started getting more "mainstream" traffic (probably due to netstumbler refferals). It would be interesting to see what Google stats say. :) |
| pogson Jul 25, 2006 5:51 PM EDT |
I believe Apple was passed by GNU/Linux in the past year or two. In my school, for instance, in September there will be 150 Linux seats, 50 Linux/Windows dual boots, and 0 Apples, unless someone smuggles a laptop in. The school had 50 old machines running Windows last year and it made no sense to put a 7 year old OS, XP, on shiny new hardware. We could have only afforded 75 new machines with Windows for the money we are spending. I sometimes see cheap XP boxes for $500 but our thin clients boxes are costing an average of $175 per seat. We put our real money into servers that will actually do the work. We get efficiencies in several channels that way: no licence fees, no malware, fewer moving parts, less electrical power, fewer hard drives, less noise, etc. Lots of wholesale migrations to Linux have been in the news. When was the last time you heard of mass migration to Apple? Of course, many institutions are locked into Windows. I fled one last year. They will stick with WIndows to the bitter end. When people encounter Linux in stores, in school, and in business, Linux will gain mindshare. Two years ago people politely turned away when I suggested they switch to Linux. This year, they are taking my advice. |
| grouch Jul 25, 2006 6:03 PM EDT |
You can also ignore the numbers and just look at what MS has been doing. The call for a truce, courting of open source, desperate battle to delay ODF uptake, MS in the online news about something every day, the stock buyback, the WGA fiasco, the stepping down of the emperor, executive blogging, and the advertising all indicate the walls of the monopoly are no longer sound. The prisoners are escaping and the wardens are getting frantic. |
| tuxchick2 Jul 25, 2006 6:18 PM EDT |
Excellent points everyone. Grouch, you nailed it- M$ is getting clobbered on several fronts, one of the biggest ones being their own paralysis. They're investing all kinds of money and energy into everything but delivering good products. |
| Libervis Jul 25, 2006 6:37 PM EDT |
Interestingly though, their own paralysis seems like a natural development within a proprietary software system which is so much more about proprietarization than opennes. I think in the longest term proprietary software is showing to be self destructive. But then again, aren't all flawed systems ending up like that? So sure, if nothing else, they'll crush themselves in time. |
| jimf Jul 25, 2006 6:40 PM EDT |
> Maybe a better way to estimate GNU/Linux market share is to observe website statistics Yes, actually that could be entirely valid, but, only if the site is neutral... That is not MS, or Linux, or Mac, or BSD. |
| Libervis Jul 25, 2006 6:45 PM EDT |
That's why we'd have to ask Google Jimf. :) They probably suck up most of webs traffic and are completely neutral. |
| grouch Jul 25, 2006 6:47 PM EDT |
Surely someone can put a number to the likely error in analyzing a very large number of sites. But what exactly would be analyzed? |
| JackieBrown Jul 25, 2006 7:29 PM EDT |
Would could just use this site and declare linux the clear winner :) |
| Scott_Ruecker Jul 25, 2006 9:10 PM EDT |
I'm with you grouch, I DO SOMETHING..like write for a Linux news website, advocate the use of open source software to any and all I know. Just tonight I put Open Office on my step-mothers computer. She and my Father just got a new laptop and were 'pissed' to use a word I can repeat to describe how they took the news that M$ Office would cost them another $500 to have on it, or as my Father said, "Just to type up a ****ing letter". I guess you had to be there. :-) I said "I can put a program on there that will not cost $500 and it will do all the things that M$ Office can do and more". My Dad said "You want steaks or chicken?", I picked steaks. Duh! What is really cool about it is, up to this point they both have not really taken me very seriously when talking about Linux and FOSS. They seemed to be a little more receptive than before. Let the conversion begin.. |
| jimf Jul 25, 2006 9:14 PM EDT |
> I guess you had to be there. :-) Oh, we've been there ;-) Honestly though, Desktop linux has become a no brainer as a replacement for MS. |
| dcparris Jul 25, 2006 9:19 PM EDT |
> Would could just use this site and declare linux the clear winner You mean it's not? ;-) |
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