Give me strength.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| salparadise Jul 18, 2007 8:42 PM EDT |
What is this guy saying?
Because he couldn't cope with updating firefox therefore Linux is rubbish? Because he didn't bother to do any reading first he is a chump who got defeated and so wrote a whiny article and then went back to XP in a huff? Peppered as it is with all those accounts of how he asked people and went to the Mepis forums and tried SO hard to understand... Do us all a favour - next time just give the typewriter to a monkey. |
| azerthoth Jul 18, 2007 9:04 PM EDT |
I have just relied on my distro to keep me up to date, usually a short lag time between release and update, but not much. This article spurred me to look up the process of doing it manually, needless to say I had the information in my hands in under 5 minutes. Much as I suspected its essentially as simple as extracting it to /usr/lib/(share/ depending on distro). |
| tqk Jul 18, 2007 10:27 PM EDT |
Quoting:Because he didn't bother to do any reading first he is a chump who got defeated and so wrote a whiny article and then went back to XP in a huff?I'm growing sooooooo tired of this. Noobs are trying *buntu, and they've never heard of manpages. The first little "glitch" (meaning something they don't understand) they see sends them running to a forum or newsfroup demanding instant solutions or damnit, they'll just go back to *doze. Go! Please! I agree with another poster I read recently in debian-user. I care more about quality people converting to *nix, not vast numbers of them. By "quality", I mean someone who's going to expend at least a modicum of effort doing some research beforehand. Someone who's at least heard of http://tldp.org. Someone who's at least heard of http://groups.google.com (for searching, not posting). The rest of them? Fsck off. FOSS doesn't need you. Stay with your stupid/expensive/broken *doze box and drown. Quoting:This article spurred me to look up the process of doing it manually ...That's a little sad too. I expect that from noobs. "Updates? What's an update?" For all those who *still* think Debian's just too damned hard for noobs: aptitude update && aptitude upgrade Ooooo, rocket science! If you're considering a new install, grab the first two Etch CDs, give it "installgui" at the boot prompt, and see just how fscking difficult Debian is. No, I won't give a flying fsck that your unsupported Wifi card won't work. You should have thought about that before you bought that crap. There's plenty of hardware compatibility howtos out there, but the typical noob doesn't bother to look for them to determine if their crap will actually work before diving in, then they blame FOSS for the failure. Jerks. I hate this century, and most of its present inhabitants. The few left who aren't drooling imbeciles are all that's keeping me alive. xman -notopbox -bothshown & # Damnit! |
| tracyanne Jul 18, 2007 11:16 PM EDT |
I'm sorry, but he has point, not a big enough point to dump Linux for Win XP, but it is never the less a valid point. Updating Firefox on Windows is a no brainer, you don't even have to do anything. On Linux ant Linux distribution you have to wait until the Distributor gets around to creating the package, Sometimes it's a lot more than a day or two. And often you don't get the latest version, instead you get a back ported old version, that doesn't always have the same functionality as the new version Yo can't simply go to the Firefox download page and expect to easily install FF from there, as you invariably don't get anything other than a Tar gz and you have to copy the files into the correct place and do a few other things, and then you run the risk of the update coming through and overwriting your work. For example the upgrade path for FF on Mandriva 2007.0 is FF1.5.x, to get FF 2.x you have to do the copy files thing, otherwise you are stuck with FF1.5.x, and you have problems when a bug fix is backported to it, if you've decided to jump the gun and go FF 2.x |
| chambersofunix Jul 18, 2007 11:49 PM EDT |
@tracyanne : I am responding to you because you showed this "give me the latest and shiniest version" thinking. May I ask where this thinking come from? I am noticing this thinking in more and more Linux users. But this thinking is not good. You know, even if in your distro is the "old and klunky" version of 1.5 ( I am just using 1.5.0.12 of FF) it is a release which your distro devs support and which is tested and tested again in the process of releasing your distro version. No one - except the developers who always work on the newest stuff to bring the project/product further- needs the newest version. If Mandrake has 1.5 then stick with it. It will be way more stable and secure than a 2.xx which you try to get to run. There was a time - some years ago - where Linux users could make magic on the console browser where the IE users just stared wondering. Where are these times? Gone forever? |
| tracyanne Jul 19, 2007 12:37 AM EDT |
I never mentioned old and clunky. Unfortunately some important, to me, Firefox addons no longer support FF 1.5.x. Also I see nothing wrong with getting the latest release, especially when it is a security fix release, on the day it's released. Another thing I have an issue with is the fact that It's really hard to get the latest version of Mono when it's released. |
| jacog Jul 19, 2007 1:28 AM EDT |
I was recently watching some videos on Youtube of people showinf off their Beryl desktops. I like looking at what other peeps are doing, and i do enjoy tinkering with such things myself. What struck me though were the comments to some of these videos... Most were positive comments, but what was a little worrying was the sheer amount of people who said things along the lines of "WOW, OMG, WTF, This so totally R0X0R5, I MUST get Linux... where can I get it? Can I run Spybot on it? What about Norton AntiVirus... must have that." Basically, people getting excited about FOSS, but with absolutely no clue about what it means to run a totally different operating system to what they know. These people don't know what a word processor or a browser is... it's "Word" and "Internet Explorer". Now... as stupid as some of these people can be, I can't bring myself to shun their interest in our world. In fact, I welcome them, and I believe that the operating system should have various layers of technicality. The top layer should very much cater for (and perhaps even coddle a little) these people. But the key here is to educate as you go along, and to make sure these people get out of the whole "hard-wired to the brand name" thing. The dude in the blog post does have a point, but agreed, not enough to dump the operating system entirely. I also think the lag period for updates to things like Firefox is far too long. In fact... I don't think I have ever seen Firefox in my Ubuntu updates list. ( ? ) Of course, some degrees of stupid you just can't cater for. One of the posters in one of the abovementioned Beryl threads was convinced that Linux is illegal and says he saw it in some video report all about how it was illegal. I was baffled, but I am guessing he probably saw something about the Microsoft patent allegations, or perhaps a discussion about DVD CSS or somesuch thing, and drew all the wrong conclusions. One of those threads... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lawkc3jH3ws EDIT: Oh... ironically, the newest release of Firefox fixes the firefoxurl:// exploit, mentioned in another article... which won't work on Linux at all since it essentially requires IE to work. |
| nikkels Jul 19, 2007 2:38 AM EDT |
Just a small message.
I have PCLOS and if I want an upgrade, I open Synaptic, click on reload file, click on upgrade and click on Apply.
Then sit back. How much easier do some assholes want it to be? |
| zenarcher Jul 19, 2007 2:56 AM EDT |
I have to agree with most everyone else here. Again, a classic example of, "I moved to Linux, but I'm too lazy/stupid to even consider reading or learning anything about it." It's almost as if these people want you to think they were born knowing how to do every task in Windows. I have not doubt that somewhere in the past, they had to learn how to perform an update or install with Windows, as well. I see this attitude on forums very often. Trying to perform some function in Linux, but using the "Windows Step By Step Procedure." What do they expect? Linux isn't Windows and the procedure is going to be different. Linux isn't Windows and most of us using Linux are very happy that it isn't. For those people who want an operating system that works just like Windows, there is one very simple solution to their problem. Use Windows. Period. If, on the other hand, if you want something better, more stable and secure, try Linux, but take the time to learn something about it. The Firefox update and all other updates for that matter, was very simple with SUSE 10.2 using Smart and with my Fedora 7 system, using YUM. A no-brainer. Oh...and skip the "not ready for Grandma and Grandpa" FUD, too. I was 60 years old before I ever picked up a Linux disk and tried an install. That was after some 14 years of knowing nothing but DOS/Windows, too. |
| azerthoth Jul 19, 2007 2:59 AM EDT |
yes nikkels, however if you were to do 'apt-cache policy mozilla-firefox' you would come up with 2.0.0.4-2pclos2007, whereas the latest is 2.0.0.5. As I said before, most of us rely on our distro to keep us up to date with a little lag time between release and an install/update candidate. If you want the newest faster than that you have to be prepared to do a little work. |
| Sander_Marechal Jul 19, 2007 3:49 AM EDT |
Quoting:For those people who want an operating system that works just like Windows, there is one very simple solution to their problem. Use Windows. Period. If they are adventurous they could also test ReactOS. |
| theboomboomcars Jul 19, 2007 6:34 AM EDT |
All he had to do after he extracted the folder was click on the file that says firefox and it would run. No need to touch the version the distro supports or anything. Then he could make a launcher for it, or change the one provided to point to that firefox launcher instead of the one included in the distro. I guess the need to install something rather than just extract is was overwhelming for him. |
| rijelkentaurus Jul 19, 2007 6:49 AM EDT |
I use CentOS 4.5 at work, and I use the unpacked, downloaded version of FF. Updating is as easy as unpacking the new version, since it will automatically reference the profile you have. Also, if you use the downloaded version, it will search for updates (I was just told 2.0.0.5 was available.) It will automatically update the installation, no problem. This article is BS all the way around. FF is very easy to keep up to date. |
| dinotrac Jul 19, 2007 7:14 AM EDT |
>I am responding to you because you showed this "give me the latest and shiniest version" thinking. As opposed to "I don't care what you want, you should take what I'm willing to give you and be happy" thinking? |
| tuxchick Jul 19, 2007 7:35 AM EDT |
sorry dino, it's "asaposed." I was payed to say that. |
| Abe Jul 19, 2007 8:03 AM EDT |
Quoting:The rest of them? Fsck off. FOSS doesn't need you. Stay with your stupid/expensive/broken *doze box and drown. Such statements are disturbing to read on LXer and I don't think there is a need for any of it. We have to realize that FOSS is becoming widely know by many novice computer users. Linux is no longer a geek only OS, it has come a long way in the areas of user friendliness and easiness. Calling newbies stupid lazy is not appropriate, calling them computer ignorants or uninformed is much more appropriate. You can't even totally blame them for that, MS has a big part in it due to what they made an OS to be. These people didn't have an option before or didn't know about Linux as an alternative. Now they do. I am not saying not rebuke the falsies. I am saying to give them a chance to dip their toes in and learn like we all did. If some people didn't do as early or as good as most of us did, we can't totally blame them. Calling them stupid and lazy is not going to help (well it might help with few). As far as the TFA writer, all I can say to him is, if every Window's user dropped it for every little problem they encountered while using it, like he did with Linux, FOSS would have been mainstream long time ago. As windows is far more problematic than Linux. This guys is either devious or ignorant. He will either eventually shut up and eat his words, or he will eventually learn what Linux is all about and how much better than Windows it is. Lighten up please! |
| zenarcher Jul 19, 2007 8:34 AM EDT |
Whether its Linux, Windows, any FOSS or trying to store gasoline in a styrofoam container I guess I see the message as the same. About all you have to do is read a few warning labels on products to realize that a lot of people are too stupid or lazy to use products. Personally, I'm inclined to go with the lazy. I'm more than willing to give people a chance to "dip their toes in and learn, " but this writer made absolutely no attempt to do so. Likewise, literally any forum would have been more than happy to have assisted him. But, rather than attempting to seek out a solution, he chose to write an article full of half-truths. I'm too old adapt to "politically correct," so I stick with my original comment. |
| dinotrac Jul 19, 2007 8:36 AM EDT |
>I was payed to say that. Solangas uwuz payed. |
| tuxchick Jul 19, 2007 8:36 AM EDT |
Abe has some good points. Yes, the article author is a troll. But when you're replying to a trollish article, keep in mind who your real audience is- probably not the author, but a lot of readers who would benefit from helpful, polite responses. |
| dinotrac Jul 19, 2007 8:42 AM EDT |
> but a lot of readers who would benefit from helpful, polite responses. Especially important when you consider that the most effective trolls start out with some kernel of truth -- something that others could look at and imagine themselves falling into. |
| tqk Jul 19, 2007 5:40 PM EDT |
Quoting:... so I stick with my original comment.Ditto. The fewer lazy sponges using FOSS, the better. I've been going well out of my way to help noobs for more than a decade. Anyone who displays any tendency toward learning something is more than welcome to my help. However, I'm not a babysitter, and they can learn to wipe their own damn nose, just like I did when I started. |
| dinotrac Jul 19, 2007 5:49 PM EDT |
>Ditto. The fewer lazy sponges using FOSS, the better. You need to refresh yourself with the ideals of free software: freedom for users, not just programmers and not just experts. |
| tqk Jul 19, 2007 9:29 PM EDT |
Quoting:You need to refresh yourself with the ideals of free software: freedom for users, not just programmers and not just experts.I am concentrating on freedom for users, but I didn't sign up for martyrdom. Nobody's paying me for my pearls of wisdom. I feel no obligation to give what I've given. I help because I want to help. I help those who want to learn, so that one day they may help others. I'm not handing out free fish. My offer has always been to teach people to fish. If they don't want to learn, there's plenty out there who have no problem with giving away their hard earned knowledge. I'm not one of them. I insist that my efforts have long-lasting, positive effects, else what's the point? Quickie magic bullets for lazy moochers don't interest me in the least. They're welcome to try to find them elsewhere. I don't play that game. FOSS is not just a "free as in beer" version of Windows. That "free as in beer" comes with obligations to pass it on, the whole ball of wax, not to just give it away to twits who just want to cut costs. |
| gus3 Jul 19, 2007 9:50 PM EDT |
Quoting:You need to refresh yourself with the ideals of free software: freedom for users, not just programmers and not just experts. I would agree with you at first glance, but... There's always, a "but," isn't there? Allow me to explain. For now, I work as a temp in a factory. Normally, I would put things in cartons, put the cartons in boxes, according to the requirements that I've learned over the past (N) months. There are several others like me. However, due to a recent shake-up in the department, I'm no longer doing productive work as my mainstay. I'm doing a thing called "post-auditing," meaning I check other people's work before sending it to be stored or shipped. I have done this before, and I am reasonably qualified to do it. The reason I stopped doing it before was because, after a couple months, I felt like a glorified babysitter. It wasn't the newbies who bothered me; it was people who had been there several months, who should have known how to do their jobs, but who couldn't be bothered to pay attention, that finally sent me over the edge. Someone else could deal with the apathy in the daily grind; I did it only to fill in for the next post-auditor when he was absent. Mercifully, those times were few. Now, I'm doing it again, every day. The one other person on our shift who could do it, is needed elsewhere in the department. I have let our team leader know that I don't want to do this forever, and she understands. She was the glorified babysitter many moons ago. However, this time around, I'll put up with only so much b.s. and laziness: one warning from me on a particular mistake, and the next one goes to the attention of the team leader. I have too much real work to do, to add "babysitting" to it all. How does this relate to FOSS and "lazy sponges"? It's actually quite simple. The article's author probably has on his bookshelf a whole row of books relating to Windows: "The Missing Manual," "For Dummies," "In 24 Hours," and the like. How much extra reading has he done for Windows? I'll be presumptuous and say probably quite a bit. Well, where does he get his Windows updates? From Joe Blow's Hardware and Barbecue? Uh, maybe... in which case, he'd get his instructions on how to install those updates from Joe Blow. OTOH, if he gets his updates from Microsoft, like most normal people, he'd install them according to Microsoft's instructions. Was this guy too dense to figure out the same applies to the Linux side? If you get your updates from Mozilla, you follow Mozilla's instructions on how to install them. If you get your updates from Mepis.org, then you follow the Mepis instructions for updating your system. Is it possible for a coddled Windows user to convert to Linux? Yes. My mother did it, and it was her idea. I am her sysadmin, but I am helped tremendously by the fact that she knows what she doesn't know, and isn't afraid to ask for help when she needs it. My tech support experience makes my help more effective (I've learned how to explain things, and how to document for future reference), but she is willing to learn, and willing to admit when she needs help. But just because she can't do something, doesn't mean she'll abandon Linux and return to Windows. I won't go so far as tqk, but I will say Murray should stick to Windows for now, use Firefox, and everyone will be happy. Throw in Thunderbird, OpenOffice.org, and maybe Cygwin, and he can minimize Microsoft's grip on his system while still allowing him to be a productive netizen. When he is willing to climb the learning curve for desktop Linux (a very similar curve he already climbed with Windows), then he'll be ready to take the plunge. |
| dinotrac Jul 20, 2007 4:37 AM EDT |
>But just because she can't do something, doesn't mean she'll abandon Linux and return to Windows. Ya know, just for fun, I went over to mozilla.com. I guess it's been a long time since I actually read any of the stuff there because I was a little surprised to discover that instructions for installing on Linux are not that easy to find. Not ridiculously hard, but not that easy. For example, click on "learn more", and you'll get - not much. You will find a link to release notes, and the release notes page has a link called "installing", but that just tells you that a new install overwrites the old one. If you click on the "support" tab at the top of the page (any page), you will get a screen with a link to firefox help. Clicking that will take you to a page that has a link for the FAQ, a text entry box for the Knowledge Base, and a link to a tutorial, among other things. The FAQ has a link for "How do I install Firefox?". Sounds great, but it just points you to the release notes which don't tell you how to install for Linux. And that's presuming you know what an FAQ is, and lots of Windows only folks don't. The detailed tutorial does give very plain and simple instructions, for a Windows install. Typing "Linux install" will bring up a knowledge base article that explains how to install Firefox -- from the command line and beginning with a wget to get firefox. Sigh. I think I'm beginning to understand why Windows users might get just a wee bit perplexed. |
| Sander_Marechal Jul 20, 2007 4:43 AM EDT |
It doesn't matter much that Linux installation instructions on mozilla.com are not up to snuff. A regular Linux user should not go to mozilla.com for their new firefox in the first place. They should check with their distro. Teach *that* to new users. |
| dinotrac Jul 20, 2007 5:49 AM EDT |
>A regular Linux user should not go to mozilla.com for their new firefox in the first place. Ummm: 1. "Regular" Linux users are not the issue, and 2. When a security update becomes available, it is not unreasonable to want it, even if your distro lags. After all, that's what you can do with Windows (at least for Firefox). |
| jacog Jul 20, 2007 6:11 AM EDT |
Does the Firefox automatic updater work under Linux at all? If not... can it not be implemented? IE, downloads the updates, then to install it you just punch in rour root password. - ? Surely the FF binaries are not distribution specific? I am not able to check right now. |
| number6x Jul 20, 2007 6:25 AM EDT |
Yes it works under Linux, I have an OpenSuse install whose firefox updates itself like in Windows. My debian and zenwalk installs use ice weasel and are updated through the distro's repositories. I think if you unpack the binary .tgz from Mozilla, and use that in your distro, it will update itself. I have not looked into where the Suse version checks for updates. |
| theboomboomcars Jul 20, 2007 6:29 AM EDT |
If you install FF from mozilla, then you can have it auto update. But the ones that are included with the distros that feature is disabled quite often. |
| Abe Jul 20, 2007 7:46 AM EDT |
Quoting:Ya know, just for fun, I went over to mozilla.com Dino brings up couple good & important points. It seems Mozilla, and other open source outfits like OpenOffice.org, that release applications for Windows and Linux are catering more to Windows users than Linux user if at all. Mozilla web site doesn't have any Linux install instruction, or at least I haven't found it if buried some where. That is not good. We are excited about novice users starting to give Linux a try. Wouldn't it make sense to make sure that those people have install instructions and all the documentation necessary to make it simple and easy to explore Linux? Granted that most users will be coming from a Windows environment, but many of those will be giving Linux a try after they see what Mozilla has to offer. I too haven't had to download FF for a long time since it normally gets installed as part of the distro or automatic updates. But, there are instances as Dino mentioned, where users want to be proactive on their own and apply fixes since distros don't have it quick enough every time. Some instructions would be very helpful. If some are willing to spend much time on documenting for Windows, why not spend a little effort and tailor it for Linux too? |
| jdixon Jul 20, 2007 9:57 AM EDT |
Well, I got the patch notification on the Slackware mailing list last night and downloaded the package. Now all I have to do is find time to install it when I get home tonight. So at least one distribution already has Firefox 2.0.0.5. Of course, being a newbie, he would probably find other things not to like about Slackware. |
| jdixon Jul 20, 2007 9:59 AM EDT |
> When a security update becomes available, it is not unreasonable to want it, even if your distro lags. How many of those security updates affect Linux? Hmm, time for some research.... |
| jdixon Jul 20, 2007 10:15 AM EDT |
OK, the security updates for Firefox 2.0.0.5 are as follows: MFSA 2007-25 XPCNativeWrapper pollution MFSA 2007-24 Unauthorized access to wyciwyg:// documents MFSA 2007-23 Remote code execution by launching Firefox from Internet Explorer MFSA 2007-22 File type confusion due to %00 in name MFSA 2007-21 Privilege escalation using an event handler attached to an element not in the document MFSA 2007-20 Frame spoofing while window is loading MFSA 2007-19 XSS using addEventListener and setTimeout MFSA 2007-18 Crashes with evidence of memory corruption Of these, three are marked as critical: 18, 21, and 23. Of those, 23 is mostly a Windows specific problem, though I guess it's possible that running IE under Wine could duplicate the problem. I may be being dense, but I doubt "chrome privileges" means anything under Linux, so I suspect 21 is also a Windows only problem. That leaves 18, which probably affects both systems. |
| mvermeer Jul 20, 2007 10:27 AM EDT |
> It seems Mozilla, and other open source outfits like
> OpenOffice.org, that release applications for
> Windows and Linux are catering more to Windows
> users than Linux user if at all. There is a reason for that (as others mentioned): for Linux, it's the distribution's job to package easy updates etc. For Windows, that obviously doesn't work for 'enemy packages'. And MS doesn't package other vendors' software anyway. And Windows doesn't have (or had when I last used it) anything resembling a clean and consistent package management system. Not that it would be a bad idea for Mozilla to provide packages at least for the most popular distro's. For proprietary apps that's common and inevitable. But again, distro packagers have the overview and are best positioned to do this consistently for free aps. |
| Sander_Marechal Jul 20, 2007 12:32 PM EDT |
Quoting:I may be being dense, but I doubt "chrome privileges" means anything under Linux Actually ,the XUL-Runner powered GUI of all Mozilla applications is referred to as "chrome". |
| jdixon Jul 20, 2007 12:57 PM EDT |
> Actually ,the XUL-Runner powered GUI of all Mozilla applications is referred to as "chrome". Yes, but I doubt it runs with any special privileges under Linux. It probably has system rights under Windows. |
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