Debian hints
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Sander_Marechal Dec 10, 2008 11:00 AM EDT |
Re: bash and the installer shell:
Did you know you can add to the installer? Start the installer, go to the console like you did and now you should be able to use apt to install thinks like bash and what-not. Re: Mirror selection: Things like mirror selection are in the installer, but hidden in newbie mode. Switch the installer to normal or expert and suddenly you will be asked these questions and many, many more. Re: apt-get v.s. apt-cache They are different programs with a different task. No sense in combining them. With apt-cache you can manage and search your package database. With apt-get you install or remove software. Re: Synaptic asking for CD That is because you have configured apt to use the CD first, internet second. Configure the repositories from Synaptic (or open sources.list in a text editor) and remove the CD-ROM repositories. |
| azerthoth Dec 10, 2008 12:22 PM EDT |
Re: apt-get vs apt-cache emerge $PACKAGE = install emerge -s $PACKAGE = list if that package is available, what version is available, if it's installed and if so what version. vs apt-$THIS, apt-$THAT, apt-$OTHER I know which one makes more sense just at a glance ... and after a hard look too. |
| Laika Dec 10, 2008 12:28 PM EDT |
Quoting:I'm not sure what's next: I may install Fedora 10 or I may continue using Debian.I'd suggest you should give Debian another try, this time using the latest Lenny Release Candidate 1 installer. It has got several improvements over the Etch installer you tried. You can find the latest installer and its documentation here: http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/ Debian has also an unofficial forum where you can ask for help, in case you can't figure out something on your own. http://forums.debian.net/ Browsing the same forum, I discovered a couple of howtos that look like they could be useful for a new Debian user. http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=13362 http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=15612 The first howto offers some basic background information about Debian and the installer. The second howto explains how to set up and maintain a mixed Debian testing/unstable system, which is the ideal setup for desktop use. For server use, though, Debian stable is a better option. |
| Bob_Robertson Dec 10, 2008 12:34 PM EDT |
> I know which one makes more sense just at a glance ... and after a hard look too. I agree, telling people to use apt without a front end is like telling people to tune up their own cars. Absurd! If you're already at the command line, use dselect or one of the other tools that were made for exactly this job. Worrying about which apt-the-other-thing to use is just confusing the issue. Dselect, as much as I seem to be the only person using it, has been around (switch to creaky Vulcan voice) Since The Beginning.... |
| hkwint Dec 10, 2008 1:01 PM EDT |
Sander, thanks for the hints you gave. I knew you were going to reply with help even before I wrote this article; so I could have asked before writing the article, but I wanted to write it from the perspective of a Debian-noob. Probably next time I won't be as noob as the first time, knowing about the expert mode and where to receive some help, and I might think better before partitioning to make the right configuration the first time.Quoting:this time using the latest Lenny Release Candidate 1 installer. It has got several improvements over the Etch installer you tried. OK, thanks, I will contemplate that suggestion. Quoting:The second howto explains how to set up and maintain a mixed Debian testing/unstable system I read about that, probably a HowTo also, but I wasn't able to update to 'testing'. I might consider installing 'testing' from the CD Quoting:If you're already at the command line, use dselect or one of the other tools OK, thanks for the hint Bob. I will remember it next time. Quoting:I know which one makes more sense just at a glance ... and after a hard look too. Probably depends on your view of what a single command is, and what you're used too. According to Sander both programs are for a different job, while some of us may think as 'package management' as one job. Certainly we Gentoo / Sabayon users do. However, this is where I came from: "pkg_add, pkg_create(1), pkg_delete(1), pkg_info(1), pkg_update(1), pkg_version(1)" so after all Debian doesn't have that many commands it seems. Normally I alias 'emerge' to 'apt-get install' and I'm rid of the most annoying part. |
| krisum Dec 10, 2008 2:19 PM EDT |
aptitude does combine functionality of apt-get and apt-cache, so you can use aptitude install/search/remove/purge etc. However, apt-cache search is equivalent to aptitude search ~d (without "~d" aptitude does not search in package descriptions like apt-cache). Regarding automatix, it is much better to use debian-multimedia.org instead. |
| bigg Dec 10, 2008 2:59 PM EDT |
If you want to stick with Debian, Sidux is a good choice. It has a few modifications, but it's 100% Debian, not a Debian derivative. |
| Scott_Ruecker Dec 10, 2008 3:15 PM EDT |
I agree with bigg, I think Sidux is great, I have used it off and on and its a lot easier to to set up, for me anyways. |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 10, 2008 5:11 PM EDT |
Like any distribution, it helps to get familiar with the install process before veering off the reservation. For desktops, start with the "Standard" desktop, which is GNOME, and then add whatever other window managers/desktop environments you wish after that. Unlike in Ubuntu, the default Xfce and KDE installs (which can be selected in the boot parameters in the installer) don't contain the same utilities as the "standard" GNOME install. You don't tend to get Synaptic, for instance, in anything but the standard GNOME installation. However, you do get apt and Aptitude in every install. It wouldn't be Debian without them. Using the Debian Live CDs (http://debian-live.alioth.debian.org/) is a good way to see what the various desktops look like, but I generally bring Xfce and Fluxbox into my Debian installs in addition to GNOME. Aptitude, apt and dpkg are all deeply interrelated. I don't know nearly enough about them (the book "The Debian System," though from the Sarge era, does a great job explaining them). But they really work. For me, Debian is extremely reliable, both during the install and afterward. I know if I need to get a box running, Debian is one of the quickest ways to do it. Quick is a relative term, however. The network install does take a long time, depending on your Internet connection's speed, so that part isn't quick, but getting everything partitioned and set up is very consistent, and hardware autoconfiguration has for the most part been great. In many cases I tried to boot into Ubuntu or install it from the alternate CD on my older PCs, and it often doesn't work out. That's where Debian excels. For newer PCs, I imagine people run into fewer problems with Ubuntu. I'm always saying that different hardware responds differently depending on what you're loading into it and what you want it to do afterward. Trying to run the same Linux distro across 10 different boxes is asking for trouble. That said, I'm never happy when I can't get Debian to install on a given piece of hardware. The Gateway laptop I've been using intensively for the past year and some -- and which is going to my daughter very soon -- just doesn't like Debian. Both Etch and Lenny require compromises in my use of the machine that I couldn't overcome with much Googling and digging into the configuration files. Now it's dual-booting Ubuntu 8.04 (currently with the less-troublesome Xfce) and CentOS 5.2 (GNOME), and since that's what works, that's what I'm running on it. |
| Bob_Robertson Dec 10, 2008 5:54 PM EDT |
> For me, Debian is extremely reliable, both during the install and afterward. I know if I need to get a box running, Debian is one of the quickest ways to do it. Same for me. I know people have trouble with Debian, I keep reading about it. I'm no fool to think that "everyone" must, should, or wants-to, use Debian. That's why there are different distributions. But I do get frustrated when people say it's particularly hard. The only particular, for any distribution is familiarity. Without that familiarity, NO distribution is "easy". |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 10, 2008 6:57 PM EDT |
Quoting:I know which one makes more sense just at a glance ... and after a hard look too. Apt-cache and apt-get can do a few things that emerge doesn't do (according to their respecive man pages). For example, apt-cache can show you many statistics of the repository, both about installed packages and all available packages. It can also generate dependency graphs and search through (reverse) dependencies. Quoting:Aptitude, apt and dpkg are all deeply interrelated. It's not so hard. The core of the system is dpkg. Dpkg works very well, but is complicated and doesn't do things like dependency resolution. It's just very good at installing and uninstalling packages. dselect, apt and aptitude are all front-ends for dpkg. dselect is the oldest one and has indeed been there pretty much from the beginning. You can use it as a cli command and with a curses interface. Dselect has problems though. From it's man page: Quoting:The dselect package selection interface is confusing to some new users. Reportedly, it even makes seasoned kernel developers cry. Dselect also has quality problems. Apt was invented to solve all this. It is a newer front end to dpkg that works much better. For compatibility with older systems that were administered with dselect, it can also work together with dselect. Apt also has some downsides, notably the lack of a curses-based interface like dselect has. So, again a new front-end for dpkg was built: Aptitude. It does everything apt does (in a very similar way to apt) but also offers a curses interface. If you are installing a new Debian system, use aptitude. Dselect and apt are only interesting on older systems. |
| Bob_Robertson Dec 10, 2008 8:25 PM EDT |
> Dselect and apt are only interesting on older systems. I'm not old! |
| hkwint Dec 10, 2008 9:00 PM EDT |
Quoting:It can also generate dependency graphs and search through (reverse) dependencies. Well, the dependencies in fact that is a job emerge does (emerge --depclean); but you are right there are other jobs emerge doesn't. In fact, just as most BSD/Linux distro's Gentoo has a host of other package-management tools; like revdep-rebuild for reverse dependencies, the lower level ebuild command that emerge uses, the q-applets which almost nobody is aware of and uses, genlop - the most important thing about whole Gentoo because genlop -c can estimate how long your compile will take, and eclean and others. It's the same ground but with different borders; and that might confuse people. Maybe it has something to do with the naming also; in apt-get it is clear it will get something for you, but what apt-cache does is not entirely clear from its name, just as aptitude, dpkg and dselect. Same goes for the Gentoo-tools. One has to admire the naming simplicity of BSD where you have pkg_del, pkg_info, pkg_add etc. Quoting:Apt also has some downsides, notably the lack of a curses-based interface Huh? That's no downside, that's another reason to use it; because I'm always lost in those curses-based menus in which it is hard to find your way; at least most of the time. EVMS-GUI and the FreeBSD (and I believe Ubuntu Installer, or is it the same as Debian?) installer are the examples I'm aware of and find really hard to use, the Debian curses installer is much better by the way. No, I detest ncurses-menus; the only good reason to have ncurses is for lynx etc. Quoting:Like any distribution, it helps to get familiar with the install process before veering off the reservation. That helps to do it right the first time (on purpose not my intention!), not to spot approachability issues made by carelessness which could easily be resolved. It takes an uninformed noob to spot those. The very same reason someone like me who has been using WinXP for multiple years cannot spot a lot of the logical behaviour-flaws and approachability issues of WinXP because I'm used to it; but my mother or grandmother can spot them with ease. |
| jdixon Dec 10, 2008 9:59 PM EDT |
> One has to admire the naming simplicity of BSD where you have pkg_del, pkg_info, pkg_add etc. Or Slackware, where you have pkgtool, installpkg, removepkg, upgradepkg, and makepkg. |
| carolinason Dec 11, 2008 2:16 AM EDT |
Wow, Debian is such a malleable distro, I really was frustrated reading this. I equate it to watching a video of my girlfriend driving a manual transmission car by her self. I've never ran into any of these install issues. I thought Gentoo users where the linux nuts and bolts guys, perhaps this is a bad thing. I've installed Gentoo, but it took me a bit of reading. Perhaps this applies here. Install Lenny not etch, allow the installer to do it's job. Just follow the prompts and Debian installs in a straight forward manner. Even the disk partitioner! Use the provided tools and don't choose to install a desktop during the install. Just install the system. Once you've booted into BASH log in or su as root. # aptitude install xorg kde your done or just install kde-core or xfce4 for the minimal experience. add vga=791 to the kernel line in grub menu.lst and enjoy the command line. keymap will aid in dvorak layout. i don't use synaptic, i use aptitude and search for packages with it or the debian packages web page. but i do sympathize with the user, i don't think i could switch easily to another distro. I like Debian to much to leave it. |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 11, 2008 2:50 AM EDT |
Quoting:Huh? That's no downside, that's another reason to use it; because I'm always lost in those curses-based menus in which it is hard to find your way; at least most of the time. It may not be a downside to you, but it is for many other people. Aptitude offers the best of both worlds. You can use it as a cli command and as a curses based interface. Aptitude is nearly 100% compatible with apt, options and all. Just type "aptitude" where you would type "apt-get" or "apt-cache" and it works. The only change is that the "dist-upgrade" option is now called "full-upgrade". Aptitude has a few other advantages over apt as well. For example, removing unnecessary dependencies (now backported to apt as well in Lenny) and being able to manage multiple dependency resolution solutions at once. |
| Zilvis Dec 11, 2008 9:30 AM EDT |
I wonder too why this thing "eject disc after install" is adopted in variuous distros ? Would'nt be more comfortable to have the same behaviour as in MS install route ? Me too tries debian on eeepc (after 4 years of gentoo and still counting) and I must admit debian is very polished polished but it has it's "strange moments" also. |
| carolinason Dec 11, 2008 11:48 AM EDT |
At the end of the install you are prompted to reboot into to the new system and it says to remove the disc, but you must click continue to allow it, then it ejects. Now sure why this happening here. |
| Sander_Marechal Dec 11, 2008 11:54 AM EDT |
If you leave the disk in after installation and reboot, it will start from the disk again and not from the hard drive. The same is true for Microsoft Windows, or any OS for that matter. It's a BIOS setting and the installation routine cannot change it. |
| Bob_Robertson Dec 11, 2008 2:56 PM EDT |
> Now sure why this happening here. Because it's not assuming that a software "eject" is absolutely, certainly, going to work automatically. |
| carolinason Dec 11, 2008 4:27 PM EDT |
exactly it's a bios setting, so eject the disc when prompted, if the bios setting is set. |
| carolinason Dec 11, 2008 4:33 PM EDT |
uuhh, i feel retarded. i don't have a bios setting to eject or not eject a cd-rom when it's called by a software command. when you click continue on the last step of a debian install there is a confirmation screen. it states that the cd will eject and to remove it. more than likely this will happen. again, not sure why this is happening here. |
| hkwint Dec 12, 2008 7:58 AM EDT |
Quoting:I've installed Gentoo, but it took me a bit of reading. Perhaps this applies here. Off course it does, but as said before, doing things right the first time was not the purpose. Quoting:Use the provided tools and don't choose to install a desktop during the install I've read that more; I guess that's the way to go. Quoting:Aptitude offers the best of both worlds. You can use it as a cli What I was looking for I assume. |
| questioner Feb 03, 2009 4:08 PM EDT |
Gratz on trying debian! I am a Debian user trying out Gentoo right now. I was looking for some hints on using emerge when I came across this page. I think its great to get out and try distros, esp. when they are as different as these two are. I have been using Gentoo only now for about a week and I can say I like it a lot more than I thought I would. I think in the end I will go back to using debian for most tasks, but I can see why people use gentoo. It is hard to strip debian down to a flying gas-can the way you can with gentoo. The people who said you should use aptitude are right, it is a better pkg-man. The ncurses interface can even be nice from time to time. One things has been bugging me about portage/emerge for sure.... descriptions. They are a little to short and sweet in gentoo if you ask me. When your looking for something new it's a pain. I like the fact that the emerge search features are RE but trying to search through all the desc is a pain, esp. when it doesn't bring up things it should. Good luck on the rest or your journey. -Evan |
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