Well said Carla....why, why, will not the KDE4 team listen ?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Ridcully Jan 29, 2011 12:33 AM EDT |
I got KDE4.4 working for me as most readers of the LXer site know from the articles, but it was a battle and I cannot see me going through this sort of nonsense again. Xfce seems the obvious choice. My impression is that Xfce is stable, clean, fast and does exactly what I want with absolutely no nonsense ~ it gives you a DE as they used to be before the bloatware of KDE4. I know there are other DE's or WM's that others swear by, but I like what I see in Xfce. I am virtually certain I will move in the next 6 months or so to Xfce and I look forward to learning how to use it. But I ask again: the negative statements about the development direction of KDE4/Plasma have not died away after two or more years (in fact if anything, my perception is that they are becoming louder and more frustrated as more previous KDE users walk away from KDE) so why is the KDE4 team ignoring this feedback and adding complexity onto complexity ? Surely they must read sites such as LXer and LXT ?. Do they really intend to continue to produce a desktop/DE/WM that apparently fewer and fewer people want ? As regards KMail, I would bet you can get it to install in its KDE3.5 form if you kept an old KDE3.5 disk such as openSUSE 11.1 . You then set that up as a special repository, and install KMail from that......works well with other software so I can't see why KMail wouldn't work. |
| tuxchick Jan 29, 2011 1:50 AM EDT |
Ridcully, I'll be checking out Trinity KDE when it's in distro repos. You know, when it's all easy to install :). Debian Lenny has KDE 3.5 if I really want to go back in time. It wasn't that hard to find new stuff to replace my old stuff, and I don't care much about KDE4 anymore. As we say after painful breakups, I've moved on. |
| skelband Jan 29, 2011 1:55 AM EDT |
Years ago I used to love KDE 3.5.
I kinda drifted away from it around the time of the move to KDE4 but mainly because I converted to Ubuntu at the time. Like you, I would like to give Trinity a go when it is ready for primetime. |
| tuxchick Jan 29, 2011 2:01 AM EDT |
For all we know, KDE4 will someday be the most rad advanced DE in the galaxy. I just don't feel like suffering through its growing pains. |
| nikkels Jan 29, 2011 2:37 AM EDT |
>>>>>>>>>Like you, I would like to give Trinity a go when it is ready for primetime.<<<<<<<< I have Trinity ( Kubuntu ) installed on a rather " old " computer (8y), something like 1.2Gh processor with 750 Ram. It works well and fast and "" for the needs 'I' have "" its as good as when I was using KDE3 in PCLinuxOS. Prime time is now, I think. I wished it could take of, but looking at the rather meager userbase......Dunno |
| Ridcully Jan 29, 2011 3:51 AM EDT |
Tuxchick, you could be dead right on the future of KDE4, but ...that's an "awfully long string to the bow" and one I personally wouldn't like to predict. I do think however, that if the KDE4 team continue on this complexity spree, sooner or later it is going to produce unpleasant and self-defeating results. However,the new article on LXer: "openSUSE 11.4 M6 Kills HAL, Brings WebYaST, Avoids SystemD" indicates that openSUSE 11.4 will include Xfce 4.8.........and this is exactly the scenario I have been waiting for, since openSUSE remains my preferred OS. You don't need a crystal ball to discover what I will be doing once this version of openSUSE officially hits the streets......Regretfully, it will be goodbye KDE and "exit stage left", probably for good........followed by "bring on der mouse !!" :-) It's gonna be a lot of fun, not a blankety blank fight !!!!! |
| bigg Jan 29, 2011 5:49 AM EDT |
@tc: As I know you use Arch on at least one of your machines, I think kdemod 3 is still an active project that allows installation of KDE 3.5, but without going back to the old software that's available with Debian Lenny. https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=769757 |
| caitlyn Jan 29, 2011 1:03 PM EDT |
I'm sorry. I stilldon't get it. I *like* KDE 4 a lot more than I did KDE 3.x. Ever since Pardus managed to do a really nice implementation of KDE 4.2.1 in their 2009 release I've been sold. It works well and it is polished. Desktop wars have been going on as long as I have been involved in Linux. @Ridcully: I seriously doubt "fewer and fewer" people want or are using KDE 4. Some people are resistant to change and fight it tooth and nail. Some have another favorite DE and build theirs up by tearing others down. Some folks are just plain loud and get lots of attention. I don't think you can judge numbers by the level of vitriol. Right now KDE4 is the favorite target. For a while it was GNOME, around the time when Linux Torvalds went after the GNOME developers and called them "interface Nazis." I suspect when GNOME 3.0 comes out they will take the heat and recommendations for KDE 4.x will be written quickly. It's all cyclical and more than a little bit humorous. Carla or anyone else who doesn't like KDE 4.x is certainly entitled to their opinion. They are certainly free to write about what they perceive as flaws in the DE. I can respect those opinions. What I can't agree with is the idea that opinion is universal or even a majority view. Oh, and if I have someone who is recovering from Redmond's disease the desktop I give them is KDE 4.x since it can be configured very similarly to Windows 7 rather easily. No, I don't like Widows 7 one little bit but that familiarity makes it much easier for people in recovery. |
| tuxchick Jan 29, 2011 2:09 PM EDT |
Right Caitlyn, and so often people are *completely wrong* about what they like and what works for them. That is why KDE4 devs and fans need to continue pounding away at how the users who don't like it are wrong, they're just afraid of change or are silly trolls, and they need to love KDE4 because it really is wonderful for everyone, and when one person loves something then that means it's great for everyone. **edit** What I care about the most is performance-- both workflow, and how hoggy or responsive is the software. DEs/WMs don't do work, applications do work. The graphical environment affects workflow and efficiency. Anyone who wants to make a case that KDE4 is 'better' is going to have to give specific examples of how it's better, because crabbing at how wrong people are to not like it just doesn't work. |
| jdixon Jan 29, 2011 5:05 PM EDT |
> Do they really intend to continue to produce a desktop/DE/WM that apparently fewer and fewer people want ? From all appearances, yes. |
| Ridcully Jan 29, 2011 5:59 PM EDT |
For Caitlyn......thankyou, but the answer I would give you is both yes and no.....In case you think I personally am not giving KDE4 a fair go, look at this: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/146439/index.html and the two preceding articles and you can get a view of the "cranky old coot" who is writing this as well. (Okay, I have "blown my cover", but you all knew who it was anyhow - lol). I am running KDE4 right now as my principle desktop. But if you read those articles, you will get a full picture of what I had to do to get KDE4 "belted into shape" so that it was useful. Is it running nicely now ? Absolutely and beautifully stable and I like what I have "manufactured" very much !!! Do I really, really want to go through that "belting into shape" again knowing that next time the added complexities the KDE4 team are adding may not allow me to do what I have done this time ? Probably not, and in any event my attitude is that I shouldn't have to do so. Hence my acknowledgment that Xfce is probably the direction I will take in about 6 months. You can find specific examples of some of the things the KDE4 team have done to KDE4/Plasma which I find appallingly stupid, and others that seem to work quite well. "Change" as such I accept; but change for changes sake (and the default screen of Dolphin is a classic example of this) is simply not acceptable. In its default state, Dolphin is almost unusable for many functions of a file manager. And a little thing that I find irritating is the "advancement" the developers have put in place which tells the tree in the Folder panel to re-size every time things are altered. I can live with it, but I don't want it or need it......very un-necessary in my opinion and I don't think you can switch that off. I've said in other comments that I fully agree that the KDE4 team are dedicated, sincere, hardworking and giving of their best ~ I just don't like their set path of adding complexity onto complexity. And I don't think that you are correct when you say: "Right now KDE4 is the favorite target." I think KDE4 has been a target ever since it was pushed out onto the DE stage; right now, the calls about problems with KDE4 are getting louder and louder while previously happy users are switching off and saying so - loudly, and that is a very different thing. |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 29, 2011 7:12 PM EDT |
We've been having this exact same discussion now for what, 3 years? |
| jdixon Jan 29, 2011 7:31 PM EDT |
> ...or what, 3 years? Pretty much. And the KDE developers pay as much attention as ever. So we'll probably be having it until KDE 5 ships. If there are enough KDE 4 users to support a KDE 5 development. |
| tuxchick Jan 29, 2011 8:13 PM EDT |
I wasn't trying to start up KDE flamewars again, really! Sorry! I am weak and easily tempted. I was really trying to show how easy it is to try alternatives, and how rich the Linux world is in good software. Really! |
| Ridcully Jan 29, 2011 8:30 PM EDT |
I agree with you 100% Bob, some of you have been "at it" for 3 years.....but I pretty much stayed out of it until I was forced into it a few months ago by the impending departure of support for openSUSE 11.1, the last version of SUSE that included KDE3.5 . Then I either had to move to KDE4 or some other DE. It's only now, with personal experience of the problems that are inherent in KDE4, that I can join in the debate with valid comments. In other words, what is "old hat" for you is relatively novel for me and I am where you probably were 3 years ago. What appalls me however, is that I have the strong impressions that essentially the same things have been stated about KDE4, "for what, 3 years", and "the KDE developers pay as much attention as ever." That is no way to treat a user base; you just don't continue to ignore the wishes of the people who were previously happy to use your software. Personally, I don't think that the KDE4 team will either care or do anything until they reach the situation where there is almost universal rejection of their product. And who knows ? The numbers of people who like KDE4 (and I perceive KDE4 as a messy and bloated piece of software) may steadily increase ~ anything is possible. But if the discontent and migration to other DE's continues, I suspect a general reduction in KDE use is what will happen: slowly and steadily. Certainly, I personally would not recommend KDE4 to a new Linux user ~ Gnome is far preferable, even if I don't particularly like that DE. Postscript: Understood completely Tuxchick and agreed. It's simply that having "been there and done that properly", I can now put my tuppence worth in and feel I know a little about what I am saying. The best way forward now, I think, is: "If you don't like KDE4, don't use it: there are superb alternatives available." For the rest of it, one just quietly migrates and leaves what was a superb DE for good. Sad. |
| jdixon Jan 29, 2011 9:46 PM EDT |
> That is no way to treat a user base; you just don't continue to ignore the wishes of the people who were previously happy to use your software. Bingo. And that, not the technical problems, is why I am not and do not expect to ever be a KDE 4 user. |
| GaryBaxter Jan 29, 2011 10:00 PM EDT |
KDE4 is junk. |
| dinotrac Jan 29, 2011 10:56 PM EDT |
@jd et al -- Yup. Every now and then I get tempted to give it a try, but we never seem far from some indication that the folks on the KDE team really don't give a rat's petootie about us or our needs. At that point, the mouse looks a whole lot better. I may try other things, but I'm not yet ready to give KDE another go -- even after ten years of using it. |
| Ridcully Jan 30, 2011 12:53 AM EDT |
Okay.......the KDE4 developers, from what I am reading, seem to simply ignore the messages that I see spelt out on this thread. In some ways, I am horribly ignorant of the Linux developer world, but I do understand that for the kernel, Linus is in overall charge and I suspect, listens to the masses via his developers. In that sense, Linus carries an enormous responsibility to the entire Linux community and he has their trust. You do see articles that indicate to and fro flows from the kernel group to the rest of us. So, I now ask the questions: Who are the KDE4 team responsible to ? Who controls their project ? Who funds them ? How do they obtain feedback apart from the usual bug reports ? (And quite candidly, my view is that the sorts of things that are being noted on this thread are not bug reports ~ they are fundamental problems in how the KDE4 package has been developed.) Is there any evidence that the concerns expressed here ever reach the KDE4 team.........Lord knows, after 3 years (sensu Bob's time scale), "something" must have gotten through. So, what is the blockage ? And why ? Surely the team must occasionally read these forums and thread if they wander through the web as I do and I am sure most of us do. Who or what is refusing to acknowledge that all does not smell of roses in the KDE4 garden ? I stress that I am serious about those questions. I really do not have any answers to them and I would very much like to know. If there are KDE4 meetings, can others from outside attend them ? Can the "unwashed masses" contact the KDE4 team directly and spell out their concerns ? If it is single voices that are being ignored, is there any way to combine all the "unhappy voices" ? Some of those questions may sound "trite and simplistic", but I have to start somewhere to find out what on earth has happened to what was a superb DE. And I also, don't want to begin another major flame war......my thoughts are very much along the lines of offering constructive comment on KDE4 whether it acceptable to the developers or not. |
| salparadise Jan 30, 2011 4:09 AM EDT |
"KDE4 is junk" Wow, what a layered, multifaceted opinion. KDE is fine. Perhaps the issue lies elsewhere? |
| Alcibiades Jan 30, 2011 4:25 AM EDT |
Carla, why not Fluxbox? I have moved to xdm and flux. xdm in a fit of irritation with the new gdm, which seems to keep the bloat while eliminating the functionality. Then flux, and all you have to do is get rid of the habit of keeping files on the desktop. Once you've done that, you discover how much easier it is to work without all this stuff lying around, and you are home free. I quite like openbox also, but the nice thing about flux is the panel, its very irritating to not be able to see at a glance what is open on which desktop. Also the desktop widegets for openbox don't seem to do anything except show you icons, well, who needs that, if you can't use the icons to move the windows from one to another. Anyway, for me its flux and xdm, and it may be retro, but its fast and it doesn't get in the way. I use thunar as the file manager. Probably a dual pane one would be better at some point. |
| dinotrac Jan 30, 2011 7:44 AM EDT |
>Perhaps the issue lies elsewhere? No, everything I see indicates otherwise. The code itself seems to be rounding into shape, but code, by itself, is just code. KDE is worse than orphaned code. KDE is code supported by an arrogant and untrustworthy team. For my use, that renders it junk. |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 30, 2011 11:05 AM EDT |
> KDE is worse than orphaned code. Orphaned code doesn't change in new, exciting and random ways. There's a quote that's surfacing from somewhere seriously deep in my mind, let me get it out then look it up: "Software should work in a way that... 'least astonishment'" Ok, now to go hunting... Got it. The Tao Of Programming http://www.canonical.org/ ~kragen/tao-of-programming.html "A program should follow the `Law of Least Astonishment'. What is this law? It is simply that the program should always respond to the user in the way that astonishes him least. " KDE4 fails this test, for me. |
| hkwint Jan 30, 2011 11:26 AM EDT |
Ridcully: Next week, developer room in Brussels. If I'm not too ill, I'll probably attend. If not, ask Stuart or Justin, maybe they can answer your questions. http://www.kde.org/community/getinvolved/promotion/ After you have your answer, be sure to let all LXer'ers know! |
| caitlyn Jan 30, 2011 12:34 PM EDT |
@tuxchick: Please do not put words in my mouth. I didn't write anything near what you attributed to me. I never said you or anyone else was "wrong about what they like or what works for them." What I said was not everyone shares that view and that some peopele do like KDE4 and it does work for them. I also said that your opinion was equally valid and that I am perfectly OK with you writing about it and expressing it. What I did say is that your opinion is not universal or even a majority opinion. You are doing something in this thread that I rarely see you do: effectively saying that your opinion is right and everyone that disagrees is dismissive or deluded. C'mon! You're better than that! Regarding performance: I think what I use when I want maximum performance has been well documented: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/03/improved-linux-screen-s... Nowadays I drop in lxpanel rather than fbpanel but the concept remains the same. What I do is lighter and less resource intensive than Xfce or even a full LXDE install. Having said that there are times when appearance trumps performance, as in when I want to demo something and having a pretty gee whiz desktop helps with the overall first impression. There are times when familiarity trumps performance, like when I am trying to make a transition to Linux easy for a newcomer. There are times when convenience trumps performance, like when I know I will need to switch keyboard layouts on the fly, which I can do easily with KDE or GNOME or Xfce... except when on Xfce that applet mysteriously disappears from my panel and is grayed out when I try to add it back. On KDE it just works. Did you ever consider that you or I may not really be the target audience for KDE anymore? I know I am not the target audience for Ubuntu. I am not a recent Windows refugee nor am I a typical user. I don't want to wade through treacle to get to functionality and that's what it feels like I'm doing when I try to use Ubuntu. Never mind that the big U is still an incredibly bug ridden mess and that some bugs I've complained about have been acknowledged but remained unfixed for several release cycles now. KDE devs certainly do better than that. There is no desktop that comes configured to my taste out of the box. With KDE I do have to do some tweaking. Show me a desktop where I don't. |
| tuxchick Jan 30, 2011 12:52 PM EDT |
Uh no Caitlyn I didn't say that my opinion is right and everyone else is wrong. I have no idea where you got that, or why you keep arguing it. Nobody else in this thread said it either. None of your arguments really pertain to the thread or the article-- you're all over the place. Opinions differ and all DEs need tweaking- yeah, so? Who said otherwise? Alcibiades, I do like Fluxbox. The cool thing is an hour spent learning Fluxbox means learning all kinds of great ways to customize it. It takes an hour in KDE4 to find out where they've hidden a checkbox, or that a feature you liked is gone. |
| Ridcully Jan 30, 2011 6:05 PM EDT |
@Hkwint.......Many thanks Hans. I took your advice immediately on seeing it this morning. I have just sent an email to Stuart, cc'd to Justin, and more or less asked my questions, while giving some background information. I have also asked for approval to post their answers on LXer. Watch this space I guess.....they will be busy men, so I don't expect instant response. Thanks again. |
| Ridcully Jan 30, 2011 6:59 PM EDT |
For Caitlyn......I have been thinking very seriously about something you said in your response above to tuxchick:Quoting:Did you ever consider that you or I may not really be the target audience for KDE anymore? I find myself unable to discard your hypothesis and continue to wonder if it may at least be partially true. KDE3.5 was "everybody's" desktop manager/environment and to my knowledge there has been no direct statement from the KDE team that such a change in direction has occurred. Nevertheless, the visible development directions of KDE4 are very different from those of KDE3.5, and that seems to support your contention. So, what group do you think KDE4 is being aimed at ? Novices, previous KDE3.5 users, highly experienced internet users, business people or semi-professionals who need highly organised desktops, iPad devotees .........or what ? |
| caitlyn Jan 30, 2011 7:21 PM EDT |
@Ridcully: I think they, like Ubuntu, are targeting newcomers moving from Windows and "ordinary users", meaning folks who aren't technically inclined. |
| tracyanne Jan 30, 2011 7:33 PM EDT |
That would explain why they make it so difficult to personalise. |
| hkwint Jan 30, 2011 7:33 PM EDT |
Ridcully: If you act like press by means of writing articles, then I think you're entitled to use the "press" area of the KDE-website! |
| Ridcully Jan 30, 2011 9:27 PM EDT |
@Hkwint......very kind of you to say so, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. Three articles on LXer do not make me a regular writer or press in my own perspective, although I am enjoying the experience and my pen/keyboard is getting itchy again...But I promise sincerely: NOT more about KDE for the present. |
| vainrveenr Jan 30, 2011 9:53 PM EDT |
Quoting:I think they, like Ubuntu, are targeting newcomers moving from Windows and "ordinary users", meaning folks who aren't technically inclined. Quoting:But I promise sincerely: NOT more about KDE for the present. Apropos of these two comments, the latest Distrowatch Hits per 30 Day's tally at http://distrowatch.com/index.php?dataspan=4 lists Zorin OS at number 20th. From the Zorin Distrowatch description found at http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=zorin : Quoting:Zorin OS is an Ubuntu-based Linux distribution designed especially for newcomers to Linux. It has a Windows-like graphical user interface and many programs similar to those found in Windows. Zorin OS also comes with an application that lets users run many Windows programs. The distribution's ultimate goal is to provide a Linux alternative to Windows and let Windows users enjoy all the features of Linux without complications. The two main points to note here about this surprisingly popular "Distribution Released" Ubuntu-based distro (as described by Distrowatch) are: 1. It seems directly targeted for "newcomers moving from Windows and "ordinary users"". 2. It is clearly based upon GNOME rather than KDE or another DE..... perhaps a significantly deliberate decision ?? |
| Alcibiades Jan 30, 2011 11:24 PM EDT |
I was installing pclinuxos for someone, a windows user, and thinking that the kde version was the pcl canonical version, installed it. After a few minutes of playing with it, I rapidly decided it was impossible to inflict this on him, downloaded the gnome one, and away we went. Not that the gnome one out of the box is perfect, but given the choice, its obvious which you would pick. The sad part is, this did not use to be true. I had naive users on kde 3.5 and they got along fine. And the pcl implementation is said to be one of the best. They had a great thing going, and they just wrecked it, and now they can't find any way back. Very sad. |
| jacog Jan 31, 2011 3:09 AM EDT |
Quoting:We've been having this exact same discussion now for what, 3 years? Well, at least it's not vi vs emacs so much anymore. :) |
| tracyanne Jan 31, 2011 4:17 AM EDT |
vi vs emacs. What verse What? |
| Ridcully Jan 31, 2011 5:20 AM EDT |
Check out this topic, currently on LXer: KDE at FOSDEM Next Weekend One bit of text really caught my eye: Quoting:KDE talks will cover: education, an introduction to Qt and Qt Quick, Phonon, KDE on Windows and mentoring. I am starting to think that Caitlyn may be at least partially right and that Windows users are a KDE4 target group. That would give support to the fact that KDE has become so complex, glitzy and "windowish" in its menus ~ especially if enormous effort is being made to have KDE run smoothly as a DE on Windows in order to get a greater audience and bring the Windows users into the Linux fold.... But of course, I am probably sooooo wrong. KDE would not be the first to do this either, VLC, OO and LO all have Windows versions. |
| jacog Jan 31, 2011 5:38 AM EDT |
I should hope most open source software also have Windows versions. It's the beauty of FOSS. It's free for anyone to compile for and run on any platform they can manage to do it on. |
| dinotrac Jan 31, 2011 6:18 AM EDT |
VLC, OO, and LO all make sense. KDE? Hard to figure. Windows is a DE-driven OS. It's part of the package. |
| jacog Jan 31, 2011 6:36 AM EDT |
Noticing something interesting here. When some mention "KDE" they assume desktop/file manager/window manager, while others see "KDE" as all of that plus the extra apps, like k3b/KMail/Amarok. |
| hkwint Jan 31, 2011 9:52 AM EDT |
To make stuff more confusing, as far as I understood some of these (like KMail app / KDEPIM working group) are part of the KDE project while others (like Koffice / K3B) are not. |
| azerthoth Jan 31, 2011 12:51 PM EDT |
I think I can answer the question asked in the topic. It's something that most governments forget. No matter how loudly or often a minority opinion screams, it does not change the fact that its a minority. |
| ComputerBob Jan 31, 2011 1:57 PM EDT |
Quoting:No matter how loudly or often a minority opinion screams, it does not change the fact that its a minority.I keep seeing some people describe KDE4 complainers as the minority, while others describe them as the majority. My personal guess is that when we talk about BRAND NEW KDE4 users, then those who are happy with KDE4 may be the majority, but when we talk about former KDE3 users, those who are unhappy with KDE4 may be the majority. Does anyone have any actual figures to back up their opinions, or even a methodology to try to ascertain some valid data on the subject? |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 31, 2011 2:47 PM EDT |
> Does anyone have any actual figures to back up their opinions, or even a valid methodology Not I, said the rabbit. Seriously, I just see "dissatisfaction is high", enough to have motivated TrinityDE, and a general abandonment of KDE4 by KDE3 stalwarts. I agree that "Posters On LXer" is a very small sample, and would not like to try to make general statements about "people" based upon it. That's why I've tried very hard to put my opinions in careful terms of "This Is My Opinion". And to answer someone else's question, no, I don't remember this kind of upset when changing from KDE2 to KDE3. In fact, as I recall, it was greeted with enthusiasm. Maybe some archive diving is in order to verify. |
| skelband Jan 31, 2011 3:04 PM EDT |
I actually do remember a day when KDE3.5 far surpassed Gnome for usability.
My distribution preference if I remember was Mandrake and its better printer dialog and hardware config tools made Gnome look positively arcane. How things change. |
| jdixon Jan 31, 2011 3:13 PM EDT |
> ...no, I don't remember this kind of upset when changing from KDE2 to KDE3. Neither do I. Now, the changeover from KDE1 to KDE2 was rather contentious, IIRC. |
| dinotrac Jan 31, 2011 3:23 PM EDT |
#jd - Noisy, but not a migration. |
| Ridcully Jan 31, 2011 6:13 PM EDT |
There is an old saying which goes: "One man's meat is another man's poison". Check this out: http://dasublogbyprashanth.blogspot.com/2011/01/review-kde-4... Okay, Prashanth doesn't like KDE4.6 ~ it really played up on him.....But then he followed that review up with the statement that: "it wasn't as bad as KDE 4.4". A further check shows he didn't actually get KDE4.4 working properly at all, so I think his comment is a bit unfair, especially since I see he seems to indicate that it was his mode of installation that seems to have put his copy of KDE4.4 into a "train-wreck". Contrary to Prashanth, after installing (no problems) and setting up KDE4.4 to my requirements, my experience has been the total opposite: it just works and works well. After more than three months, not one crash and everything continues to do what it should. Why am I getting the feeling that the best way to deal with KDE4 in any of its interations, is to strip it down to the bare essentials and run it in KDE3.5 mode ? It might not be what the developers want to see, but if it works (at least for me) then go for it. I'm now more than a little curious to see if the same thing can be done for KDE4.6....Roll on next release of openSUSE.........and Xfce too, of course. |
| ComputerBob Jan 31, 2011 7:49 PM EDT |
Quoting:Why am I getting the feeling that the best way to deal with KDE4 in any of its interations, is to strip it down to the bare essentials and run it in KDE3.5 mode ? It might not be what the developers want to see, but if it works (at least for me) then go for it. I'm now more than a little curious to see if the same thing can be done for KDE4.6.... So how long will it take you to release RidLinux 0.1 ? |
| Ridcully Jan 31, 2011 8:29 PM EDT |
Dear ComputerBob...................NEVER, NEVER, NEVER.....not while I draw breath !! Cor blimey, what a dreadful suggestion ~ are you out to sabotage my already fragile mental health ?? I'm sure you were laughing when you wrote that post. Sorry, I just had to start that way.........lol :-) But I think that there are already so many distros out there anyway and all of them built by more experienced hands than mine. No, to be perfectly frank and scrupulously honest, I simply don't have either the essential computing skills or the necessary time - my microscope beckons and I have huge amounts of herbarium specimen work to do. What I meant was that I would follow my own handbook of instructions contained in the 3 articles I have written and see if KDE4.6 could be constrained in the same way. Call it RidManual 0.1 if you like, and I'll even promise to update it if KDE4.6 proves a schtinker........or mention it, if it plays nicely. How's that ? |
| ComputerBob Jan 31, 2011 9:12 PM EDT |
Quoting:...Call it RidManual 0.1 if you like, and I'll even promise to update it if KDE4.6 proves a schtinker........or mention it, if it plays nicely. That's fine, for anyone who's still interested in KDE4 -- but, as I've said before, as far as I'm concerned, that ship sailed a long time ago, and I've been "a former KDE user" and a happy and productive Xfce fan for almost a year now -- with no motivation or compelling reason to ever return to KDE. ;) |
| Ridcully Jan 31, 2011 11:06 PM EDT |
@ComputerBob......No worries and that lets me off the hook, thank goodness. Especially if I migrate to Xfce also. :-) |
| hkwint Feb 02, 2011 12:18 PM EDT |
Well, today was my first day with Windows 7, and my first tendency was to try to mold it back to XP. So such tendencies may be more universal than just KDE. Gnome 3.0 might show, I suggest. Waiting in eager over here... |
| mrider Feb 02, 2011 12:29 PM EDT |
Quoting:Well, today was my first day with Windows 7, and my first tendency was to try to mold it back to XP. That in a nutshell was why I wound up dropping KDE4 for XFCE. My desktop is not heavily customized, but I know what I like, and I got tired of the battle with KDE to get it. I think my biggest problem with KDE is the same problem I have with Windows. The interface wants to be front and center. The most important thing on your computer. The tasks you perform are simply there to showcase the awesomeness of the environment. Well, I'm sorry, but I want to do stuff, and more importantly, I want to do it my way. Fortunately I've grown to like XFCE, and unless they go bat spit crazy, I'll probably stick with it for the long term. |
| hkwint Feb 02, 2011 1:15 PM EDT |
Well said! |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 02, 2011 1:28 PM EDT |
Indeed, Mrider, you said it very well. I, too, default to Xfce. If Trinity-DE continues to stagnate, I'll be going to Xfce and doing what Debian does very well, running whatever application on whatever "desktop". Maybe Kmail, Konqueror and K3b will be usable in version "4" while the "DE" continues to degrade. Unfortunately, it seems that Kmail and Kaddressbook are so deeply hooked into the mess of plasmoids and database engines that I will have to give up on them, too. Does anyone have a suggest for mail applications that remind them of the simplicity and ease of use of Eudora? |
| jdixon Feb 02, 2011 1:51 PM EDT |
Carla just listed some in her recent article. I think she had settled on Balsa and Claws. Thunderbird is also an option. I still use elm as my primary mail reader, so I'm not up to making recommendations. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 03, 2011 11:27 AM EDT |
Thanks JD. I looked at both, tried Claws (since Balsa is unabashedly GNOME) but got nervous about the existing mail files. I use a directory ~/Mail full of mbox files. Now Claws says it works with mbox just fine, BUT uses something else by default. So I'm just a bit nervous. Time for a backup first. Today for the second time, Kmail-trinity didn't open the wallet correctly, and things got weird for a while. I had to log out/in for it to work again. I don't like things like that happening, and I really don't like that it's happened more than once. ...but I have Trinity/KDE3 just like I liiiiiike it, I don't wanna change! Waaaaaaa! |
| caitlyn Feb 03, 2011 11:37 AM EDT |
Claws Mail works very well indeed. It also has a whole lot of useful plugins which most distros package separately. The net result is that you can pick and choose which add-ons you really want without having bloat. |
| bigg Feb 03, 2011 12:10 PM EDT |
I almost always use Thuderbird, but the thing that surprised me when I used Claws was the speed. It was so much more responsive than anything else that I've used. |
| jdixon Feb 03, 2011 12:38 PM EDT |
> ...since Balsa is unabashedly GNOME Yes, Balsa is unabashedly Gnome. As is, of course, Evolution. Claws seems to be DE agnostic. It's a fork of the Sylpheed mail client, which is apparently still being developed. |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 03, 2011 2:14 PM EDT |
I'm a big fan of Claws, but one horrible mail server's IMAP implementation works way better in Thunderbird. |
| herzeleid Feb 03, 2011 2:50 PM EDT |
I discovered claws awhile back when I was on the road with a laptop and no external mouse; with just the built-in pad or the eraser stub, mousing was awkward, but claws is wonderfully capable while using just the keyboard. |
| tracyanne Feb 03, 2011 6:13 PM EDT |
Quoting:"KDE4 is junk" I find it mildly interesting that salparadise chose that comment, rather than the more in depth explanatory comments, on why KDE4 is "junk", to "refute" the asserction that "KDE4 is junk". But in a nut shell that call and response sums up the rhetoric between KDE4 detractors and the KDE4 developers. Which means someone is not listening, or if they are, they are not hearing. |
| dinotrac Feb 03, 2011 7:00 PM EDT |
ta -- or, more to the point, not caring. |
| ComputerBob Feb 03, 2011 7:13 PM EDT |
Person 1: Do you know what the two biggest problems facing society are right now? Person 2: I don't know, and I don't care. Person 1: That's right! |
| Koriel Feb 04, 2011 2:52 AM EDT |
Thought i would throw this in, I have been trying out KDE 4.6 and although it is very nice the compositing engine leaves a lot to be desired all the flashy effects work well but window dragging is not terribly smooth and this is on an NVIDIA Geforce 7300 which runs compiz and windows 7 with all flashy stuff (aero) very smoothly, ive tried various NVIDIA settings to try and improve it but with no joy, so in the end I just removed KDE 4.6 and decided to tryout XFCE 4.8 on a whim without even backing up my previous XFCE 4.6 settings, "danger" is my middle name or was it "stupid" i always get em mixed up. Well you will be happy to know the upgrade went without a hitch and when XFCE 4.8 first started it asked me if i wanted to migrate my old settings, i said sure go ahead and voila i was pretty much ready to go. Thunar is just as wonderful and is now network aware, it found all the samba & windows shares on my network without a hitch and FTP worked a treat. XFCE just gets better and better resource usage is still very low in fact i cant tell the difference between this and 4.6 my onstartup memory usage is pretty much the same as it always is around the 180Mb mark bare in mind i have other stuff such as mysql running in the background. Adding app icons to the panel bar is now a dawdle and this was my major gripe with 4.6, in fact im so happy with it im not sure i'll bother trying out E17 which i had planned to do. What i would like to see is a way of locking the panel bar so that stuff cant be changed/removed from it since my 3yr old boy likes to mess around with it and even though he has his own user account it would save me a lot of time having to fix his cock ups. |
| ComputerBob Feb 04, 2011 3:47 PM EDT |
@Koriel, Here are some periods: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Please use them. |
| dinotrac Feb 04, 2011 4:56 PM EDT |
@koriel -- What distro are you on? Were you able to do it with distro-provided packages or did you have to, umm, get "manly" and do it from scratch? I'm very encouraged that it was such a clean upgrade. I'm excited to try the new version. Question: I thought Thunar was now history, replaced by the GNOME file manager? No? |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 04, 2011 5:23 PM EDT |
Thunar is still the default file manager in Xfce 4.8. I'm not sure exactly how they baked in the networked-filesystems capability, and some of that code may indeed come from GNOME, but it's still Thunar (and I imagine I'll like it even better; the Gigolo hack in Xfce never worked for my FTP sites in Fedora 13 ). The new Xfce makes me want to give Fedora 15 a try when it is released. |
| dinotrac Feb 04, 2011 5:32 PM EDT |
Thanks, Steve. Guess I'll go hunting for packages that'll work with mythbuntu maverick... |
| Koriel Feb 04, 2011 6:06 PM EDT |
You can get the binary packages here Dino
http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=20744 use the link provided in the first post by koshi They pretty much work with any Ubuntu 10.10 based distro, im on Xubuntu myself. The site can be a bit slow but just be patient. Thunar is alive and well and rapidly becoming indispensable. @CBob Periods are for wimps and my grammar died a long time ago, you can catch your breath at the odd comma otherwise kit yourself out with scuba gear before reading my posts :) |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 04, 2011 6:18 PM EDT |
> Periods are for wimps According to James Fenimore Cooper, being that I am reading the Deerslayer for the first time, the comma seems to be the correct separator for ideas in a paragraph, saving those rare and wonderful periods for more important things, such as ends of paragraphs, which will be discussed later in our narrative, when it becomes more important, for reasons that will be come apparent at that time. |
| Koriel Feb 04, 2011 6:45 PM EDT |
@Bob I actually write the way i talk which is fast in reality, had to deliberately slow myself down when i moved to the USA as no one could understand me, the Scottish accent (mixture of Invernesian and Aberdonian) didn't help either. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 04, 2011 8:19 PM EDT |
I have a sudden urge to get a bottle of Scotch. |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 04, 2011 8:41 PM EDT |
I'll split a bottle of Glenfiddich with you Bob and Koriel. If that doesn't at least warm your tummy up a bit..well..ok make it two bottles..;-) |
| dinotrac Feb 04, 2011 8:44 PM EDT |
@Scott -- if you're breaking out Glenfiddich, you had better not leave me out!! All -- am up now on xfce 4.8 using knoshi's ppa packages for maverick. So far -- so good! |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 04, 2011 9:10 PM EDT |
Glenfiddich would be wonderful. There's one that starts with an A that I've been wanting to try, supposed to be quite peaty and smokey. Sadly, my lawyer just charged me only a little less than a month's rent for his "services" through January, so my bank account isn't quite what it was a month ago. Anyone else ever read Dicken's _Bleak House_? Well, as I updated the other thread to say, I'm in the process of abandoning Trinity for Xfce as well. I guess I'll get to 4.8 after Squeeze gets released and the Debian developers can set their sights on the horizon again. |
| ComputerBob Feb 04, 2011 9:43 PM EDT |
Quoting:Periods are for wimps and my grammar died a long time ago, you can catch your breath at the odd comma otherwise kit yourself out with scuba gear before reading my posts :)In my youth, I was willing to expend the effort to decipher writing like yours. I concede that you may have valid points to make, but nowadays, I find myself unwilling to put more effort into the things I read than their authors did. ;) @Scott - thanks, but I'm a teetotaler. ;) |
| dinotrac Feb 04, 2011 11:33 PM EDT |
@ComputerBob - I'm sort of a teetotaler myself. A beer or two during Bears games, and during the Super Bowl. A beer with a Mexican dinner. Wine with a meal now and then. My annual consumption would qualify me as a light drinker if I drank it all in a month. Good Scotch? A lot like not drinking at all. Nurse one shot (Shivers! What barbarian would drink it over ice?) for hours, enjoying the blessed smoky warmth in your throat and all the way down into your happy innards. Spend an evening drinking and still be able to scoff at .08ppm. |
| tuxchick Feb 05, 2011 12:07 AM EDT |
Dino, holding the breathalyzer at arm's length? Real women drink Bushmill's. |
| tracyanne Feb 05, 2011 12:34 AM EDT |
Gee than ks guys, some of us can't touch the stuff cos 1 drinks too many and 2 is not enough. |
| Koriel Feb 05, 2011 12:35 AM EDT |
Just tried out Xfce 4.8 on my media/tv machine but for some reason it doesn't want to play nice with X11VNC, it keeps crashing back to gdm login but we rely on VNC for remote control purposes. Had to revert it back to 4.6 on that machine and all is fine again. Its still going strong on my dev machine though, i suspect Xfce 4.8 still has a few niggles that will get fixed as time goes by. |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 05, 2011 12:47 AM EDT |
>Real women drink Bushmill's. You are right more than you know Carla..;-) |
| tuxchick Feb 05, 2011 1:28 AM EDT |
Well Scott, I figure why waste brain cells on the cheap junk. Kill 'em off first-class! |
| jdixon Feb 05, 2011 10:54 AM EDT |
> Real women drink Bushmill's. Well, my wife prefers Famous Grouse, though Dewar's will do in a pinch. She considers Bushmill's drinkable, but that's about it. |
| mrider Feb 05, 2011 1:53 PM EDT |
Quoting:I actually write the way i talk which is fast in reality, had to deliberately slow myself down when i moved to the USA as no one could understand me, the Scottish accent (mixture of Invernesian and Aberdonian) didn't help either. I'm glad you mentioned the Scottish accent because otherwise I would have a hard time not imagining Sir Humphrey Appleby. |
| tuxchick Feb 05, 2011 2:30 PM EDT |
See, this thread is proof that KDE4 drives people to drink. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 05, 2011 2:59 PM EDT |
> Sir Humphrey Appleby One of my all-time favorite TV shows. Did you see Dame Helen Mirren's tribute to Nigel Hawthorne? Absolutely glorious. If you haven't, well, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5i1vwzVnzI |
| Ridcully Feb 05, 2011 4:47 PM EDT |
Glen Fiddich's nice, but my ultimate choice of a true Scottish whisky is Talisker.Quoting:In his poem, The Scotsman's Return From Abroad, Stevenson mentioned "The king o' drinks, as I conceive it, Talisker, Isla, or Glenlivet." |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 05, 2011 6:05 PM EDT |
> Talisker Bloody heck, the North Carolina state Alcohol Beverage Control board doesn't sell that one. The same kind of bureaucracy that would have mandated Microsoft Windows for everyone, to avoid anarchy. |
| jdixon Feb 05, 2011 7:39 PM EDT |
> Talisker, Isla, or Glenlivet. The only one of those I've ever seen is Glenlivet, and I believe it was a single malt Scotch, which my wife doesn't like. |
| Ridcully Feb 06, 2011 4:54 AM EDT |
That's all right Jdixon, my wife rarely drinks at all, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying a variety of single malt scotch whiskies........The flavour and aroma variations are incredible. I'm going off topic for a moment, because I really do love single malts. Talisker has a very unusual peppery after tang but a marvellous smoky, peaty smooth initial taste; Glen Morangie has a citrus aroma mixed in with the usual whisky aromas of peat and smoke, while Laphroig has the most incredible iodine and almost tarry tang. GlenLivet is one of the Speyside whiskies and usually has a fruity odour mixed with the scent of fresh cut wood. Bob, if you haven't investigated the Scottish single malts, and you like whisky as against bourbon, then you have a real treat ahead of you. Old Grouse, White Heather and many of the other whisky brands that you get in bottle shops are blended whiskies and often they are rather nice...but it is the single malts that really produce the unique flavours of the distilleries. Believe me, if I had the cash, I'd be doing a trip from Australia to bonnie Scotland and doing a whisky distillery tour........ye'll take the high road etc. |
| dinotrac Feb 06, 2011 9:32 AM EDT |
@rid - Hmmmm. Too many distilleries in one day and ye'll definitely take the high road. |
| Ridcully Feb 06, 2011 10:00 AM EDT |
@ Dino..........Ah yes........but what a way to go ? But sinful, gin-full, rum-soaked men Survive for four score years and ten. And some of us, the mighty few, Stay pickled 'till we're 92. That comes from a poem I've heard somewhere about the life spans of a number of different living things........ |
| dinotrac Feb 06, 2011 10:38 AM EDT |
Sigh. Guess I screwed up. In my younger days, I was definitely heading for 192 or better. Now? Guess I'd better sleep with a mirror under my nose. |
| helios Feb 06, 2011 2:18 PM EDT |
@ Ridcully...I have become completely enamored with my McAllan 12. After having bought several of the better single malt Scotch whiskeys, it has become my favorite...albeit a bit pricey. It has luscious fruity presence with a strong finish. I find that two extremely clean but small ice cubes bring the woody flavor out. It is of course a Speyside offering with no "peaty" or medicinal taste...I find that if my Scotch tastes like toothache medicine, I can find a much cheaper alternative...like toothache medicine. But to each his own. Of course it is a sherry cask offering so that taste is prevalent and not palatable to everyone's taste. For mine though, it has been a comfortable friend during late evenings, especially when it's cold. I tried my best to tie this into the subject matter at hand but even at my most creative moments, I couldn't pull it off. -1 Ken for TOS violation. I'll drink to that. |
| ComputerBob Feb 06, 2011 4:06 PM EDT |
This thread has gone way off topic. I attribute it to alcoholic beverages. |
| Koriel Feb 06, 2011 4:27 PM EDT |
I can only drink McAllan and Laphroaig, most other whisky's especially blends i dont like, its a shame i just cant afford them. Also fixed my problem with XFCE 4.8 crashing to gdm it was X11VNC their was a workaround and it used the -noxrecord option with X11VNC and then all will be well so if anyone has a similar problem this fix works. The problem also occurs with KDE and Gnome so it isnt just the XFCE & X11VNC combo. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 06, 2011 4:33 PM EDT |
> its a shame i just cant afford them Right there with ya. |
| Ridcully Feb 06, 2011 5:25 PM EDT |
@Helios.........try Glen Morangie with the Madiera cask finish if you can find it.......delicious. Also Glen Moray which is a truly unusual scotch with a bright gold colour and a honey-buttery aroma/taste. Yeah, I know we've gone "way off topic" ComputerBob, but it's been fun. It's why I keep a bottle somewhere near the keyboard....but I'm not sure if it helps or hinders computer input. |
| azerthoth Feb 06, 2011 6:43 PM EDT |
Jura, its what all other scotch's aspire to be. |
| Ridcully Feb 06, 2011 8:53 PM EDT |
@Azerthoth....I agree, Jura is excellent - at the superb levels of Jura and Talisker, it becomes "very personal likes and preferences" as to which you think is best. My son gave me a bottle of Jura for Christmas - first time I had managed to get my sticky fingers onto it, and I wasn't disappointed. |
| ComputerBob Feb 06, 2011 9:48 PM EDT |
I guess I'm this thread's designated driver. |
| helios Feb 06, 2011 10:04 PM EDT |
Here, let me get it back on track... The last time I tried to make KDE 4x work for me, it made me want to drink. Extremely expensive Scotch. And no, I can come no where near to affording it but maybe once every three years or so There, fixed it....KDE + drinking to excess. That repairs the TOS damage. Sort of. |
| tuxchick Feb 06, 2011 11:06 PM EDT |
Nom. I am inspired to expand my booze horizons. I was not impressed by single-malt Scotches the last time i tried any. Perhaps my taste buds have evolved and they will be more appreciative this time around. Perhaps I will be impressed by an expensive buzz. Any way it's worth a try. |
| hkwint Feb 07, 2011 6:29 AM EDT |
Yeah, I felt like I'm the only one who gives as much about Scotch Whiskey as about Microsoft, but thanks TC, I'm not the only one! Maybe whiskey is as Microsoft-software: The more you spend, the less miserable it is? PS: I saw Jim (Bauwens) buy your cookbook last saturday at FOSDEM! Thought you might like to know. Of course he's a bit late, I already bought it one or two years ago (may I have a cookie now?). The Audacity book wasn't there yet, probably because all the O Reilly people brought with them where programming books. Lots of Perl, I think Perlbooks had a stand on their own. |
| Ridcully Feb 07, 2011 6:43 AM EDT |
How's about "Gammel Dansk" Hkwint ? Is Tuxchick's cookbook available in down under as yet ? |
| hkwint Feb 07, 2011 10:14 AM EDT |
Oh no, I live in the Netherlands, so the only cheap booze I sometimes nip - even though I detest it - is "Breda Vieux", made in the city where I live. Probably made by people from Poland, like everything over here, but still, the label of the bottle shows the spire of our 'great white church'. Sometimes I mix with cola, than it's OK, but at the moment I can't stand carbonized drinks (weak bowel aka Crohn, you see). "Vieux" is the Dutch name for "cheap ripoff cognac", though they borrowed a French word. Especially handy for deglacing while cooking, and then putting up a firework and almost burning down the house. Funny TC's cookbook doesn't mention it. Reminds me, I may want to put a picture of the next "flamefest" online! Sadly, I'm out of Vieux now. For drinking, I like Mosel wine as it tastes like lemonade, one can drink lots of it and it doesn't cause my intestines to burn. So yeah, I'm a sissy when it comes to alcoholic beverages! |
| helios Feb 07, 2011 10:59 AM EDT |
and then putting up a firework and almost burning down the house Like I was explaining to the firemen...When it said to grease the bottom of the pan, I didn't realize they meant on the inside... |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 07, 2011 11:29 AM EDT |
> I didn't realize they meant on the inside Better heat transfer, sure. |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 07, 2011 4:39 PM EDT |
Hopefully TC will write a back-to-the-land food cookbook - I want butchering tips, too! (Disclaimer: "Linux Cookbook" remains the best Linux book ... ever.) |
| helios Feb 07, 2011 5:57 PM EDT |
Better heat transfer, sure. Yep...WD40 beats thermal paste any day. |
| Ridcully Feb 07, 2011 6:04 PM EDT |
Someone should frame this thread !! (Hey, accidental pun !!) What a marvellous example of Linux enthusiasts enjoying themselves. |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 07, 2011 6:10 PM EDT |
We probably should all be framed, boxed and shipped. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 07, 2011 6:23 PM EDT |
> We probably should all be framed, boxed and shipped. We'll see what kind of a framing job my ex-wife's lawyer can come up with. I actually started a blog today. When I have an article about Linux that hasn't been posted to LXer as a comment, I'll submit it as an article. I've seen some of the things submitted as articles around here, and actual Linux content should qualify it regardless of how well it's written. |
| gus3 Feb 07, 2011 6:55 PM EDT |
Or how many flubs you make during your tests... |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 07, 2011 8:24 PM EDT |
Gus, As I said, I've taken the blog posts I've read for years as my guide. If I can keep my standards higher than the average, I will be doing quite well indeed. Anyway, for once I feel just a little bit guilty about going off-track on the thread. Shall we take the whisky rebellion here over to "Warming Off Topic"? |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 07, 2011 8:42 PM EDT |
Just jump in and write it. Blogging ≠ rocket science |
| tuxchick Feb 07, 2011 9:44 PM EDT |
Have a drink, Bob, you'll feel better. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 08, 2011 12:30 AM EDT |
I did write it. Or at least started it. As for a drink, I don't feel like I can afford it, really. Just got the heating bill, and it's hard to believe that this apartment cost a hundred dollars MORE than a month in the now ex-wife's house. That and the lawyer have eaten away anything like what I might have called disposable income. I splurged on a bottle of rootbeer and the cheapest vanilla icecream in the store tonight, to celebrate my daughter getting published in the local paper. Celebrate alone, though, since Monday is her custody day, not mine. Darn, sure sound like I've been drinking... |
| ComputerBob Feb 08, 2011 8:34 AM EDT |
Last call! |
| Ridcully Feb 08, 2011 8:38 AM EDT |
Time gentlemen please..........drink up Mr Glum !!!!!!!!!!! |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 08, 2011 9:28 AM EDT |
Hick! |
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