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Zenwalk Continues To Impress With 5.2 Beta
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Comments (83)
Do they provide sources?
Good link!
It certainly seems that Zenwalk is falling down among several offshoots of Slackware, based upon comments regarding Zenwalk's arrogant attitude toward the GPL such as the above.
OTOH, developers of other Slackware-based distros seem to be keenly bent on competing with Zenwalk, and this without ignoring the GPL or having to cop similar such questionable attitudes. Two such positive distros that come to mind here are VectorLinux and SLAX. Good review of Vector Linux at Martin's O'ReillyNet blog 'Taking A Good Long Look At Vector Linux 5.9 Standard', http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2008/03/taking_a_good_l...
It certainly seems that Zenwalk is falling down among several offshoots of Slackware, based upon comments regarding Zenwalk's arrogant attitude toward the GPL such as the above.
OTOH, developers of other Slackware-based distros seem to be keenly bent on competing with Zenwalk, and this without ignoring the GPL or having to cop similar such questionable attitudes. Two such positive distros that come to mind here are VectorLinux and SLAX. Good review of Vector Linux at Martin's O'ReillyNet blog 'Taking A Good Long Look At Vector Linux 5.9 Standard', http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2008/03/taking_a_good_l...
I hate this, because ZW is actually a very nice, smooth and well-made distro, if only they would get their heads outta that place that heads don't belong!
Quoting:I hate this, because ZW is actually a very nice, smooth and well-made distro, if only they would get their heads outta that place that heads don't belong!Hear, hear!
One of the previous Zenwalk versions is even noted for providing an incredible amount of support for wireless network access; and on a single CD no less. As Mayank Sharma writes in 'Tiny Zenwalk 5.0 packs a big punch' (posted courtesy of LXer Editor-in-Chief Scott_Ruecker):
Quoting:How well can a single-CD 469MB distro hold up against every other multi-GB DVD distro available today? As it turns out, Zenwalk manages to squeeze in a long list of open source wireless drivers, as well as the proprietary Intel wireless device firmware. Surprisingly Zenwalk 5.0 not only does things you don't expect from a single CD distro, it does them with ease and very little command-line sorcery.( http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/99575/index.html )
I found this interesting:
> As has always been, any of us packagers are required to keep and provide the sources to those packages we maintain, so certainly it will be a simple matter of adding those to a repository, when it comes available.
That's exactly the point I made in the other thread on this. Any project will already have the sources.
> I think, that with the ZENBUILD and the ZUR it should be fairly easy to make a script that pulls all the sources from the respective places and puts them in a repo.
Exactly what I said as well. Download the sources to your hard drive, someone asks for the sources, burn them to DVD and send it to them. Not rocket science and not costly.
> As has always been, any of us packagers are required to keep and provide the sources to those packages we maintain, so certainly it will be a simple matter of adding those to a repository, when it comes available.
That's exactly the point I made in the other thread on this. Any project will already have the sources.
> I think, that with the ZENBUILD and the ZUR it should be fairly easy to make a script that pulls all the sources from the respective places and puts them in a repo.
Exactly what I said as well. Download the sources to your hard drive, someone asks for the sources, burn them to DVD and send it to them. Not rocket science and not costly.
This how one of the users responded to one of my questions...
http://support.zenwalk.org/viewtopic.php?p=91441#p91441
http://support.zenwalk.org/viewtopic.php?p=91441#p91441
I think that about answers all the questions.
It answers nothing, it's just more stalling.
You do have it in for them don't you TC. I didn't see anything there that suggested stalling to me.
Reading the thread it seems some of them actually believe they're not in violation of the terms of the GPL. I'm not sure what it will take to convince them if quoting the applicable sections of the GPL doesn't do it. They're not providing the full source with the binaries and they're not providing a written offer to provide the sources. Those are the two options the GPL gives you. A link to the code doesn't do it.
Well, maybe they'll believe the FSF when they get back to them.
Well, maybe they'll believe the FSF when they get back to them.
tracyanne, I have it in for people who serve up a dish of dog doo and claim it's chocolate pudding. This has been an issue since Zenwalk's inception, which has been covered in the various threads, and the devs have a history of arguing that they are not obligated to provide sources, and that even if they are it's a waste and they don't want to. All they have to do is shut up and get in compliance. It's that simple. I'm not going to agree that it's pudding no matter how many times they say it is.
Quoting:and the devs have a history of arguing that they are not obligated to provide sources
Proof?
Quoting:I'm not going to agree that it's pudding no matter how many times they say it is.
When did they ever say it was pudding per se?
Well I think tc may have a point here. I checked the release history. Version 1.3 (the first version) was released in October 2005. It is now 2.5 years later and still no sources. Why not? I could understand a 1 year hiatus for a small project but approaching 3 years looks careless to me......
Honestly, I've run ZenWalk before. It's pretty nice. But I can't believe they're not providing sources. I didn't think that sort of thing was going on. (Shows what I know ... not all that much.)
> Shows what I know ... not all that much
No. It just show how common compliance is. You come to expect it, and it's a shock when you realize it isn't there.
No. It just show how common compliance is. You come to expect it, and it's a shock when you realize it isn't there.
Quoting:Well I think tc may have a point here
There's an old saying of course. It's not what you say, but how you say it.
Zenwalk violates the GPL
46 earlier comments in the full thread.
> What prompted all of this in the first place?
The comments are the result of the LXer newswire linked to at the top and bottom of the page. There's a link there to the full article on Phoronix's home page. The GPL problems are summarized in Beranger's article pointed to by tuxchick.
> As I said before, not exactly.
As usual, you're correct. However, I'm willing to give them the benefit of a doubt on the follow through until proven wrong.
At this point, it looks like they're making a good faith effort to correct the problem, but unless they actually realize why it's a problem, that effort may not continue.
Hyperion asks, should we stop the project? He doesn't seem to understand that it's not his choice to make. If a single copyright holder requests the code and doesn't get it, he can get a court order to have the entire project shut down for violation of the GPL. That's all it would take.
The comments are the result of the LXer newswire linked to at the top and bottom of the page. There's a link there to the full article on Phoronix's home page. The GPL problems are summarized in Beranger's article pointed to by tuxchick.
> As I said before, not exactly.
As usual, you're correct. However, I'm willing to give them the benefit of a doubt on the follow through until proven wrong.
At this point, it looks like they're making a good faith effort to correct the problem, but unless they actually realize why it's a problem, that effort may not continue.
Hyperion asks, should we stop the project? He doesn't seem to understand that it's not his choice to make. If a single copyright holder requests the code and doesn't get it, he can get a court order to have the entire project shut down for violation of the GPL. That's all it would take.
@jdixon - do you have any specific examples of requests for source code that were not honored?
Because if you keep pushing this "get a court order" idea - that's the first thing you'll have to provide - PROOF.
In a court of law, it's not what you know - it's what you can prove.
Because if you keep pushing this "get a court order" idea - that's the first thing you'll have to provide - PROOF.
In a court of law, it's not what you know - it's what you can prove.
> ...do you have any specific examples of requests for source code that were not honored?
No. But then I'm not a copyright holder on any of the code they use, so I wouldn't have any standing anyway.
However, you don't need proof that a request has not been honored. All you need is to show they're not complying with the terms of the license, which you can see quoted above by tuxchick. They are not currently providing the full source, and they're not making an offer to provide it upon request. Those facts are easy to prove, and that's all it takes.
No. But then I'm not a copyright holder on any of the code they use, so I wouldn't have any standing anyway.
However, you don't need proof that a request has not been honored. All you need is to show they're not complying with the terms of the license, which you can see quoted above by tuxchick. They are not currently providing the full source, and they're not making an offer to provide it upon request. Those facts are easy to prove, and that's all it takes.
Quoting: The real problem about the discussion on LXer is not "GPL compliance or not" : it's true that we should publish the sources ASAP.
The real problem is the intellectual level of the whole discussion ... it doesn't seem easy to communicate with some of these guys... a bit like E.T. trying to communicate with Chuck Norris
Is it me or is it that some of us just wants an excuse to jump down somebody's throat over this issue or that issue? The founder of the project took time out of their schedule to attempt to address the issues and that's what he gets.... this swarm mentality is going to help no one! They're trying to make amends. The least we could do is be a bit more civil.
I don't see that anyone is being uncivil here, they seem to want two things. First, that Zenwalk comply with the GPL. Second, that Zenwalk admit that they are out of compliance in the first place. The second is due to Zenwalk repeatedly acting like the GPL is an inconvenience that they are not subject to because they are a small, volunteer project and dang it, you should appreciate us!
They are small and they have a great distro, but they need to comply with the license. The license is what it is. Why do they squirm so much?
They are small and they have a great distro, but they need to comply with the license. The license is what it is. Why do they squirm so much?
Quoting: Why do they squirm so much?
To that, I respond with yet another quote...
From NoDough
Quoting:Wow! The piranha infested waters of LXer.
C'mon guys. Jean-Philippe (hyperion) offered his presence on our forums and you attacked him. Common courtesy demands that you at least treat him civilly. That doesn't mean you can't air your concerns, it just means that you should present them in a fashion that invites discourse rather than confrontation.
JP, I for one appreciate your work and believe that you have created an excellent distro. I do admit, however, that I have stopped short of installing it on the computers which I rebuild and distribute due to the lack of sources. The time when your sources are made available is eagerly anticipated.
Regards, NoDough
From Sander...
Quoting:I agree with NoDough. Tone it down a bit guys (and gals). This should be a fun place for everyone, not just for the regulars :-)
I have ZenWalk running on an old PII and I like it a lot. It is the only "light" distro I know of that still makes newbies go "wow". DSL is great and all that, but it's not very pleasing on the eye. Source packages are a must however. Even on my Debian system I occasionally "apt-get source" so I can change a couple of things and install a customized package. I hope ZenWalk fixes the situation soon. Indeed, simply sending an e-mail to the known users (mailinglist?) and posting a notice on the website with an offer to give anyone who asks the sources (for a reasonable fee) is enough for now. It will do fine until the new source repositories are finished.
Finally, calling somebody pigheaded would hardly be considered civil in my book.
> ...calling somebody pigheaded would hardly be considered civil in my book.
Are you kidding. Around home, calling someone pigheaded is practically a compliment.
Are you kidding. Around home, calling someone pigheaded is practically a compliment.
Heh, and the spin and tap-dancing continue: Zenwalk should get a pass because some folks like it, so by golly us meanies should quit picking on them, and when you don't like the message, complain about the messenger. This is the stupidest thread of all time for LXer.
Quoting:This is the stupidest thread of all time for LXer.
From the person who started it.... oh the irony.
This isn't about the spin and tap-dancing as you are claiming. Did you not pay attention to the part where the individual in question was attempting to make amends or are you too busy trying to convince everyone that you're right no matter what?
We've been much meaner here before, no one can argue that.
Considering that pidheaded refers to an unyielding and senseless stubbornness, I think it's quite apt to the discussion. The Zenwalk people have been told repeatedly for a very long time that they are not in compliance with the GPL, this is hardly a revelation to them, and "we're working on it" is a very lame excuse that offers no resolution to the problem. They have been offered several ideas to resolve the problem, they need to act on them. We often say that "if you don't want to comply with the GPL, don't use GPL code." I think we need to take this one step farther..."if you CAN'T comply with the GPL, don't use GPL code." If they do not have the manpower to comply with the GPL, they need to cease the project, no matter how sweet it is. We wouldn't stand for Microsoft to rape the GPL, why should we allow Zenwalk to?
EDIT:
If and when they come online with the source repo, or when they otherwise come into compliance, great. It's a fabulous distro and I would love to see it continue and grow. When it's done, great...but it's not as yet as far as I can tell.
Quoting: Finally, calling somebody pigheaded would hardly be considered civil in my book.
Considering that pidheaded refers to an unyielding and senseless stubbornness, I think it's quite apt to the discussion. The Zenwalk people have been told repeatedly for a very long time that they are not in compliance with the GPL, this is hardly a revelation to them, and "we're working on it" is a very lame excuse that offers no resolution to the problem. They have been offered several ideas to resolve the problem, they need to act on them. We often say that "if you don't want to comply with the GPL, don't use GPL code." I think we need to take this one step farther..."if you CAN'T comply with the GPL, don't use GPL code." If they do not have the manpower to comply with the GPL, they need to cease the project, no matter how sweet it is. We wouldn't stand for Microsoft to rape the GPL, why should we allow Zenwalk to?
EDIT:
If and when they come online with the source repo, or when they otherwise come into compliance, great. It's a fabulous distro and I would love to see it continue and grow. When it's done, great...but it's not as yet as far as I can tell.
Ah thenixedreport, crabbing at the messenger.
rijelkentaurus, what you said.
rijelkentaurus, what you said.
> Did you not pay attention to the part where the individual in question was attempting to make amends or are you too busy trying to convince everyone that you're right no matter what?
Well, she is right. The Zenwalk folks are violating the GPL. That's not really an issue, though some there seem to think it is. Hopefully the FSF can convince them otherwise.
Attempting to make amends doesn't cut it when licenses are concerned. That's not my opinion; that's the law. Would I personally give them a pass while they fix the problem? Sure, but that doesn't change the facts of the matter, and there's no guarantee that any individual copyright holder will agree.
I've already said this several times, but let me repeat it. Just put up a notice on the website about providing the source on CD/DVD for $wx.yz and provide email and snailmail contacts. Then assign someone to monitor them. That takes 15 minutes, and as long as they actually provide the CD's/DVD's within a week of so of any request, they're in compliance. Then all the complaints of non-compliance go away.
Well, she is right. The Zenwalk folks are violating the GPL. That's not really an issue, though some there seem to think it is. Hopefully the FSF can convince them otherwise.
Attempting to make amends doesn't cut it when licenses are concerned. That's not my opinion; that's the law. Would I personally give them a pass while they fix the problem? Sure, but that doesn't change the facts of the matter, and there's no guarantee that any individual copyright holder will agree.
I've already said this several times, but let me repeat it. Just put up a notice on the website about providing the source on CD/DVD for $wx.yz and provide email and snailmail contacts. Then assign someone to monitor them. That takes 15 minutes, and as long as they actually provide the CD's/DVD's within a week of so of any request, they're in compliance. Then all the complaints of non-compliance go away.
Quoting:Attempting to make amends doesn't cut it when licenses are concerned. That's not my opinion; that's the law.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-9835141-39.html
Yet one of the companies sued by BusyBox is being given a chance to comply with the GPL. That's allowing them to make amends as far as I'm concerned.
> That's allowing them to make amends as far as I'm concerned.
That's the prerogative of the individual suing them. He didn't have to do so.
That's the prerogative of the individual suing them. He didn't have to do so.
They have a slightly different argument than mepis. As Zenwalk is a slackware based distro their packages are based on tarballs and so the source is made available in a through a mechanism in the packaging system.
This might be considered 'making the source available' in a geeky technical sense, but it fails the intent and wording of the GPL. The distributor has to make the source available, the go for it upstream argument failed for Warren and Mepis. Even if you provide an automated way to go upstream.
I think that Zenwalk could apply to Source Forge for the space and copy all source tarballs in one directory per version. (sub directories for patches and updates).
If they add code to their zenbuild system to copy the tarball to source forge when they release a new beta or final cut, and update subdirectories with patches, they can come into compliance with minimal changes on their part.
This might be considered 'making the source available' in a geeky technical sense, but it fails the intent and wording of the GPL. The distributor has to make the source available, the go for it upstream argument failed for Warren and Mepis. Even if you provide an automated way to go upstream.
I think that Zenwalk could apply to Source Forge for the space and copy all source tarballs in one directory per version. (sub directories for patches and updates).
If they add code to their zenbuild system to copy the tarball to source forge when they release a new beta or final cut, and update subdirectories with patches, they can come into compliance with minimal changes on their part.
what I would do is empower my community to make it so.
I'd post in the forums and let the fans of the distro know the extent of what was going on, how it needed to be fixed right away, and I'd find someone with the technical ability and drive to do it. Then I'd empower them to do so.
How do you think most of the remasters of PCLinuxOS were done? How do you think they've had so much success in getting developers as of late? I started MyPCLinuxOS as a community for empowering users and that's what it's done. I'm sure that in an active community such as Zenwalk there are those that have the technical ability and drive to accomplish what needs to be done.
Empowering is about 2 things... 1. Giving up Control of Something 2. Invigoration
By giving up an amount of control of your project you invigorate those that add to it. Keeping mechanisms in place (i.e., please check with me before finalizing the move or file an issue for code review before committing) will go a long way of giving a project leader a warm and fuzzy feeling of still being in control while empowering your community to get excited about yoru project instead of the hum drum normalcy that plagues many distros.
This is how Ubuntu is what it is. This is how PCLinuxOS rose to where it is. This is how Foresight Linux is now getting attention. :D I hope Zenwalk can follow suit.
I'd post in the forums and let the fans of the distro know the extent of what was going on, how it needed to be fixed right away, and I'd find someone with the technical ability and drive to do it. Then I'd empower them to do so.
How do you think most of the remasters of PCLinuxOS were done? How do you think they've had so much success in getting developers as of late? I started MyPCLinuxOS as a community for empowering users and that's what it's done. I'm sure that in an active community such as Zenwalk there are those that have the technical ability and drive to accomplish what needs to be done.
Empowering is about 2 things... 1. Giving up Control of Something 2. Invigoration
By giving up an amount of control of your project you invigorate those that add to it. Keeping mechanisms in place (i.e., please check with me before finalizing the move or file an issue for code review before committing) will go a long way of giving a project leader a warm and fuzzy feeling of still being in control while empowering your community to get excited about yoru project instead of the hum drum normalcy that plagues many distros.
This is how Ubuntu is what it is. This is how PCLinuxOS rose to where it is. This is how Foresight Linux is now getting attention. :D I hope Zenwalk can follow suit.
Very interesting solution Devnet. In Zenwalk's case the empowerment could be to update the zenbuild software to copy the tarball sources to a re-distribution library.
That library could be made available through the community help.
I think Zenwalk is in a better situation in terms of getting in to compliance with GPL. As a Slack based distro, they have acces to the source from their build system, and they have an automated build system to use to do the copying. They have fewrer steps to take than Warren and Mepis.
They just need the space and some coding effort from the community.
Libranet did not give the community control and it faded away after the passing of its founder. (they were GPL compliant, but not community driven).
That library could be made available through the community help.
I think Zenwalk is in a better situation in terms of getting in to compliance with GPL. As a Slack based distro, they have acces to the source from their build system, and they have an automated build system to use to do the copying. They have fewrer steps to take than Warren and Mepis.
They just need the space and some coding effort from the community.
Libranet did not give the community control and it faded away after the passing of its founder. (they were GPL compliant, but not community driven).
Libranet did not give the community control and it faded away after the passing of its founder...
The essence of bitter-sweet. Just seeing "Libranet" in print caused a physiological reaction within me.
My first real distro...it kindled my passion....man I haven't thought of them in ages...and those on that forum who fed the flames. In a way I am ashamed. It was almost akin to losing a loved one...
I now return you to the ongoing bloodbath.
h
The essence of bitter-sweet. Just seeing "Libranet" in print caused a physiological reaction within me.
My first real distro...it kindled my passion....man I haven't thought of them in ages...and those on that forum who fed the flames. In a way I am ashamed. It was almost akin to losing a loved one...
I now return you to the ongoing bloodbath.
h
wow, I had almost forgotten Libranet. It was the first Debian-based distribution that impressed me. I even paid for it. There may have been others that were also good, I don't remember. Two things that set Libranet apart were the installer and the IceWM desktop. You could install multiple desktop environments and switch them on the fly, without logging out. Even KDE and Gnome. Debian's installer, before Sarge, was a horrid beast, sort of a worthiness test. If you could not successfully navigate the installer you were not worthy of using Debian.
Libranet had a proprietary graphical system administration thingy that a lot of people liked. After Libranet's founder died unexpectedly it was left in control of his son, who walked away from it and never went back. He wouldn't release the code for any of the proprietary bits, so it all just faded away.
Libranet had a proprietary graphical system administration thingy that a lot of people liked. After Libranet's founder died unexpectedly it was left in control of his son, who walked away from it and never went back. He wouldn't release the code for any of the proprietary bits, so it all just faded away.
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Okay, Google showed me this:
http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&2008/01/18/22/49/54...
It's from 4 months ago.