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Suse cofounder leaves Novell
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Comments (25)
Untitled
CJ: You're showing you scrupples again.
I don't see a moral issue here, cjcox. Just an investor's decision based on figuring if Novell will succeed or not. To me it looks like the company with the best networking products in the world can't figure out how to attract customers. Is it a marketing failure? Is the free-as-in-freeloader ethic too strong? Maybe they simply aren't taking enough PHBs to hooter bars, I dunno. I know that for me, as someone who is familiar with their product line, their message is confusing. They have way too many products, and they don't seem to have the ability to succinctly describe what each one is for. Too much marketingmushspeak.
I can't stand Gnome. Nautilus is buggy poo. "Interface standard" my aunt Fanny, there's no standard, it's just a constipated memory of its former self. With every iteration they remove functionality and make it more difficult to customize. They don't have to take away features, fer crying out loud, just re-organize the menus. Or, to use popular geek buzzwords "decouple the configuration interface from the feature set." Put commonly-used stuff front and center. Put other stuff deeper in the menu structure. But don't take away functionality!
Gnome 1.4 was the last great Gnome; very configurable, stable, and anyone who wanted to try their hand at hacking it could find a lot of help. It was fun and useful. Ximian has a lot of kewl stuff, like Red Carpet. Since 1.4 they got on some weird drugs or something, 'cause it's been straight downhill.
Anyway, Novell needs to differentiate itself, instead of appearing to be a Red Hat groupie. They are very different. I doubt very much that decision-makers are going "OMG WTF I must have Gnome!!"
I can't stand Gnome. Nautilus is buggy poo. "Interface standard" my aunt Fanny, there's no standard, it's just a constipated memory of its former self. With every iteration they remove functionality and make it more difficult to customize. They don't have to take away features, fer crying out loud, just re-organize the menus. Or, to use popular geek buzzwords "decouple the configuration interface from the feature set." Put commonly-used stuff front and center. Put other stuff deeper in the menu structure. But don't take away functionality!
Gnome 1.4 was the last great Gnome; very configurable, stable, and anyone who wanted to try their hand at hacking it could find a lot of help. It was fun and useful. Ximian has a lot of kewl stuff, like Red Carpet. Since 1.4 they got on some weird drugs or something, 'cause it's been straight downhill.
Anyway, Novell needs to differentiate itself, instead of appearing to be a Red Hat groupie. They are very different. I doubt very much that decision-makers are going "OMG WTF I must have Gnome!!"
Now that you mention it. ILG.
tuxchick: funny, I prefer GNOME myself. KDE has great applications (K3B and Kile are my favourites), but the desktop itself irks me. It's bloated, and I find it unintuitive. I like a desktop not to get in my way, and for that GNOME is great. I don't care about eye-candy, and GNOME starts in ten seconds on my box, while KDE takes nearly one minute (both are customised to a similar level of eye candy - although I don't like flashy things, I have a weakness for the Noia icon set ;) -, and I found GNOME easier to cutomise than KDE, by the way).
Just a YMMV post :) .
Just a YMMV post :) .
If you like Gnome go with those who know Gnome best.
That's not SUSE folks.
I really don't see how this is going to help SUSE in any way (unless they are wanting to establish a follower position... which can be a business plan).
That's not SUSE folks.
I really don't see how this is going to help SUSE in any way (unless they are wanting to establish a follower position... which can be a business plan).
Well, we put SUSE 10 on my wife's computer with Gnome and it is vastly improved over previous gnome implementations from SUSE.
Guys...
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Ximian folks had more than passing familiarity with GNOME.
For that matter...Miguel's whole Mono push was to find a better programming paradigm for GNOME, wasn't it?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Ximian folks had more than passing familiarity with GNOME.
For that matter...Miguel's whole Mono push was to find a better programming paradigm for GNOME, wasn't it?
Tsela, you may like Gnome. It won't damage my opinion of you. Much.
:)
:)
Well, this is mute. SUSE/Novell reversed itself.
I vote we do away with "untitled" threads. They are obnoxious. Pick a subject, dangit.
Tom --
So help us all out a bit here, Tom...
Is it speechless or is it moot?
;0)
So help us all out a bit here, Tom...
Is it speechless or is it moot?
;0)
tuxchick: LOL, just like I won't let your preference for KDE taint my opinion of you. I'm a pretty forgiving guy after all :) .
Anyway, to be honest I'm more of an enlightenment guy. I'm quite excited about E17 :) . I'm using GNOME right now because I want to wait for E17 to become stable. I waited 2 years for Debian Sarge to arrive, I can wait for enlightenment ;) (I'm not so found of E16...).
Anyway, to be honest I'm more of an enlightenment guy. I'm quite excited about E17 :) . I'm using GNOME right now because I want to wait for E17 to become stable. I waited 2 years for Debian Sarge to arrive, I can wait for enlightenment ;) (I'm not so found of E16...).
tsela -
So long as you don't expect us to march in Locke-step with you...
Quoting:I'm more of an enlightenment guy
So long as you don't expect us to march in Locke-step with you...
Dino: care to explain to this European guy? ;)
Tsela ---
Hmmmm....As in John Locke, English Enlightenment thinker?
Hmmmm....As in John Locke, English Enlightenment thinker?
Tsela.
You can take your statement to Tuxchick about liking Gnome, switch the names KDE & Gnome, and have exactly how I feel about the desktop... including load speed. I also have no interest in enlightenment. Now, I only say this to demonstrate that most of the desktop GUI debate is personal preference. Not that preference isn't important, but, all of these desktops will do the job... more or less.
In a Commercial Distro like Red Hat or SuSe it is essential to use a consistent approach and chose one desktop. That means that some people are not going to be happy with it whatever the choice. I think that a strong case can be made for a KDE desktop in SuSe, but in a business context, there needs to be a choice, one or the other, something SuSe and Novell are quite aware of.
Thank god I'm not faced with that dilemma in Debian. I can run my KDE with my Gnome apps and whatever other eccentricities that I prefer. The advantages of working for one's self :)
You can take your statement to Tuxchick about liking Gnome, switch the names KDE & Gnome, and have exactly how I feel about the desktop... including load speed. I also have no interest in enlightenment. Now, I only say this to demonstrate that most of the desktop GUI debate is personal preference. Not that preference isn't important, but, all of these desktops will do the job... more or less.
In a Commercial Distro like Red Hat or SuSe it is essential to use a consistent approach and chose one desktop. That means that some people are not going to be happy with it whatever the choice. I think that a strong case can be made for a KDE desktop in SuSe, but in a business context, there needs to be a choice, one or the other, something SuSe and Novell are quite aware of.
Thank god I'm not faced with that dilemma in Debian. I can run my KDE with my Gnome apps and whatever other eccentricities that I prefer. The advantages of working for one's self :)
You can run Gnome apps in SUSE. You can run KDE apps in Gnome on SUSE.
Plain and simple. Novell is switching to Gnome because of perceived FUD over Qt corporate perception and the fact that Red Hat uses it.
Plain and simple. Novell is switching to Gnome because of perceived FUD over Qt corporate perception and the fact that Red Hat uses it.
cjcox,
You 'can' run KDE in Red Hat too, but, most company's using the Distro discourage that. Using multiple interface's is a pain for training and maintenance in a Corporate environment.
You 'can' run KDE in Red Hat too, but, most company's using the Distro discourage that. Using multiple interface's is a pain for training and maintenance in a Corporate environment.
Untitled
As i said here http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/19561/
Novell/Suse has begun imploding.
Linux was just anthor failed strategy for them, i have no idea what is wrong with them they have managed to achieve initial success with a great product (Netware) but they just seem incapable of maintaining it for any length of time the Suse product is already fracturing so some good may come of it but to be honest i don't see it helping Novell much as i can't honestly see a large community like RHat has with fedora crowd growing up around it.
JMHO
Ooops, this was meant to be in cjcox's thread, please post there sorry :( Feel free to move this Dave.
Linux was just anthor failed strategy for them, i have no idea what is wrong with them they have managed to achieve initial success with a great product (Netware) but they just seem incapable of maintaining it for any length of time the Suse product is already fracturing so some good may come of it but to be honest i don't see it helping Novell much as i can't honestly see a large community like RHat has with fedora crowd growing up around it.
JMHO
Ooops, this was meant to be in cjcox's thread, please post there sorry :( Feel free to move this Dave.
See what happens when you untitle a post. It confused the flock.
Novell certainly has a struggle ahead of itself. They seem to be focusing resources (a lot of resources) on things that probably don't matter instead of improving upon what they already knew well. Red Hat had a finger (or comb) in their coat pocket, put it in Novell's back and Novell fell for it.
Novell appears to be quite satisfied with getting rid of any value they had. YaST could be made into something truly impressive. I could really care less about Mono... Mono will live on for those who like it... but right now it's just not that reliable. Novell has a load of enterprise level tools. Properly integrated they could have made the SUSE platform great. Doesn't appear that we'll see that. Even though Red Hat knows next to nothing about integration, system administration tools (apparently not willing to learn from the commercial Unix distros)... Novell has decided to abandon ship on its strengths and focus on weaknesses that matter not to the enterprise.
Things that matter:
1. Logical Volume Management. SUSE was THE pioneer Linux distribution in this space. Novell allowed Red Hat to 0wn the company behind it. Red Hat, who next to nothing about enterprise storage mgmt, now owns the company that made SUSE important in that space. Big mistake.
2. Clustering. SUSE never touted its clustering capability. More of the same from Novell. Red Hat continues to tout their solution. In fact they brag about it openly.
3. Reiserfs4. Great potential. I look for Novell to abandon Reiserfs instead of trying to help them make it into something wondrous. Maybe they'll work with IBM on EVMS and JFS (which is a sad representation of the jfs in AIX).
4. LDAP. Novell... need I say more? Novell USED (used to, used to) TO own this space. For whatever reason Novell believes that it's time for Netscape (Red Hat) to assume control. Fine. Whatever.
5. Email, Microsoft Exchange, GroupWise, etc. Novell had a lot they could bring in this area. Right now the best client that interfaces with Exchange is Evolution. However Evolution crashes more than Windows itself. This is one of the biggest opportunities blown by Novell. If enterprises felt that any Linux distribution had a client that would connect to their existing M$ Exchange server, they'd buy it. If you could then migrate the data from Exchange... you'd own the whole market.
6. Virtualization and machine partitioning. Red Hat is claiming something in this area. Novell looks like it is rolling over and playing dead... even though SUSE was (again) a pioneer in support of Xen.
7. Hardware vendor support. It would really help if the big boyz (IBM, Red Hat, Novell) could help make this a reality. You still can't go to a store to even buy a simple USB memory stick without worrying about lack of Linux compatibility. Trust me... I'd say its 50/50 if you buy one at Fry's blindly. The big boyz should be out there helping to make sure that Linux support is there for hardware devices.
The good news is that the countries that produce a lot of hw are going to become more and more Linux dependent. Of course, it might mean that the Linux drivers will only be available in China, Taiwan, Korea, etc.
Novell, Red Hat, IBM... none of you are prepared to lead.
Ubuntu's success should come as no surprise.
Novell appears to be quite satisfied with getting rid of any value they had. YaST could be made into something truly impressive. I could really care less about Mono... Mono will live on for those who like it... but right now it's just not that reliable. Novell has a load of enterprise level tools. Properly integrated they could have made the SUSE platform great. Doesn't appear that we'll see that. Even though Red Hat knows next to nothing about integration, system administration tools (apparently not willing to learn from the commercial Unix distros)... Novell has decided to abandon ship on its strengths and focus on weaknesses that matter not to the enterprise.
Things that matter:
1. Logical Volume Management. SUSE was THE pioneer Linux distribution in this space. Novell allowed Red Hat to 0wn the company behind it. Red Hat, who next to nothing about enterprise storage mgmt, now owns the company that made SUSE important in that space. Big mistake.
2. Clustering. SUSE never touted its clustering capability. More of the same from Novell. Red Hat continues to tout their solution. In fact they brag about it openly.
3. Reiserfs4. Great potential. I look for Novell to abandon Reiserfs instead of trying to help them make it into something wondrous. Maybe they'll work with IBM on EVMS and JFS (which is a sad representation of the jfs in AIX).
4. LDAP. Novell... need I say more? Novell USED (used to, used to) TO own this space. For whatever reason Novell believes that it's time for Netscape (Red Hat) to assume control. Fine. Whatever.
5. Email, Microsoft Exchange, GroupWise, etc. Novell had a lot they could bring in this area. Right now the best client that interfaces with Exchange is Evolution. However Evolution crashes more than Windows itself. This is one of the biggest opportunities blown by Novell. If enterprises felt that any Linux distribution had a client that would connect to their existing M$ Exchange server, they'd buy it. If you could then migrate the data from Exchange... you'd own the whole market.
6. Virtualization and machine partitioning. Red Hat is claiming something in this area. Novell looks like it is rolling over and playing dead... even though SUSE was (again) a pioneer in support of Xen.
7. Hardware vendor support. It would really help if the big boyz (IBM, Red Hat, Novell) could help make this a reality. You still can't go to a store to even buy a simple USB memory stick without worrying about lack of Linux compatibility. Trust me... I'd say its 50/50 if you buy one at Fry's blindly. The big boyz should be out there helping to make sure that Linux support is there for hardware devices.
The good news is that the countries that produce a lot of hw are going to become more and more Linux dependent. Of course, it might mean that the Linux drivers will only be available in China, Taiwan, Korea, etc.
Novell, Red Hat, IBM... none of you are prepared to lead.
Ubuntu's success should come as no surprise.
However Evolution crashes more than Windows itself.
I have to take issue with that. It doesn't. At all.
Evolution is an awesome app. It receives and responds to, Outlook Calendar events. The only thing I can't seem to do with it is view other peoples public calendars.
I have to take issue with that. It doesn't. At all.
Evolution is an awesome app. It receives and responds to, Outlook Calendar events. The only thing I can't seem to do with it is view other peoples public calendars.
Want to see it crash.. attach it to your M$ Exchange server.
Define "attach" please.
I run several Linux boxes at work, all using Evolution, all of which logon onto the Exchange2003 server and Evolution does NOT crash on me.
Unless there's some aspect to "attach it to your Exchange Server" that I'm not aware of.
I run several Linux boxes at work, all using Evolution, all of which logon onto the Exchange2003 server and Evolution does NOT crash on me.
Unless there's some aspect to "attach it to your Exchange Server" that I'm not aware of.
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Well said. I'm going to have review my position in NOVL.
My opinion of the Ximian folks. Steeped in Gnome (and therefore Red Hat) from the days when enlightenment was chosen as the Gnome window manager (and later abandoned)... they can only generate more interest in Red Hat. IMHO, these folks are Linux folks... not Unix folks. And it shows. That's not a slam at Linux. Just stating the facts. If you're a Linux user, your experience cannot be all that old. The Ximian folks are young and quite capable of repeating every mistake that Unix has made over the years.
Gnome has never impressed me technically. Their claims at having an interface standard only means that KDE can do things that Gnome cannot do. I could rant all day... I can live with Gnome, but I might as well work on some of the other window managers... you can probably make any one of them look better than Gnome. If you like olwm or CDE, then Gnome looks very nice. And as long as control in SUSE remains the Ximian crew (basically pretty much what happened to all hopes of a Linux desktop after the Novell acquisition).... KDE is out and Gnome is in.
Strangely, Novell actually has the resource potential to come up with something even better than KDE.
But they've decided to take the easy low risk route. Just play catch up to Red Hat.... which is sad, since SUSE is actually way beyond Red Hat in many, many areas. However, if you believe the other team you're playing against is stronger than you, you will be defeated.
I may have to cash out my position in NOVL simply based on principle. Even if they strike it rich... I'm not sure I want to be a part of their "success" anymore. In fact, Red Hat at least has kept their convictions over the years. That's a more honorable investment (though it is highly, highly, highly, highly.. almost more than any pre-dot-bomb... overvalued company).