Ballmer steps-up Linux infringement suit rhetoric

Story: Ballmer: Linux users owe MicrosoftTotal Replies: 56
Author Content
henke54

Nov 17, 2006
8:26 AM EDT
http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=3974
jimf

Nov 17, 2006
9:01 AM EDT
Just a slight variation on the old mafia protection racket?
tuxchick

Nov 17, 2006
9:11 AM EDT
Yeah, and dino said we were paranoid. :)

I know, what dino really said was "they can say whatever they want, but the sharpness of the legal teeth behind their hot air is open to dispute." Dino has a way with words, he does.
jimf

Nov 17, 2006
9:26 AM EDT
I think dino is right, but, that still doesn't mean they won't try.
salparadise

Nov 17, 2006
10:14 AM EDT
Redmond trees bear strange fruit Blood on the leaves Blood at the root Penguins swinging in the southern breeze Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees

(with apologies to Billie Holiday et al).
hkwint

Nov 17, 2006
10:23 AM EDT
Two remarks:

-Barking dogs don't bite (Dutch proverb) Nonetheless, some people are scared by barking dogs (especially when they're jumping on stage) -This is the best evidence that software patents stifle innovation. Thank God those patents aren't enforceable in Europe as far as I know, so if Microsoft enforces them in the US, it will probably mean economical damage to the US compared to Europe and other continents.

Something to consider: What if Microsoft went to court and some of their assumed IP would prove to have no value at all? If that would happen, a lot of the assumed value of Microsoft as a company would vaporize, and disappear into nothing. Stock rates would probably crash. Therefore, going to court is a great risk.
dthacker

Nov 17, 2006
11:41 AM EDT
If you can't innovate, then litigate.

Dave
nalf38

Nov 17, 2006
12:06 PM EDT
Empty words from an idiot. Linux infringes MS.... and MS infringes Sun, who infringes IBM, who infringes your mother...you can't write an OS without infringing an inappropriately issued patent. I'm pissed that Ballmer said it, because while it's sort of true, it's only a small part of the truth. What Ballmer neglected to say is that it's completely idiotic to sue anyone over Linux because their product infringes just as many patents as the Linux kernel. If they sue Novell, IBM could easily sue MS for a ton of patents and so could Sun. Hell, even SCO could sue MS.

Indemnification doesn't make sense in context of a patent cold war, which de facto indemnfication anyway.
helios

Nov 17, 2006
3:29 PM EDT
"...with apologies to Billie Holiday et al."

AnyOne who quotes Billie Holliday, I can hang with.

(and thank you for spelling her name correctly)

h
dcparris

Nov 17, 2006
4:24 PM EDT
Two words: It's Ballmer.
tuxchick

Nov 17, 2006
4:44 PM EDT
Yeah, he gives all sweaty bald guys a bad name.
dcparris

Nov 17, 2006
5:06 PM EDT
I need to plant some hair on his head - he's damaging my image. Hey, I can sue him for that, can't I?
jimf

Nov 17, 2006
5:16 PM EDT
If a Bill can trademark 'windows', then I guess you can trademark 'bald' :D
rijelkentaurus

Nov 17, 2006
6:07 PM EDT
Given Balmer's image as a blowhard, I was going to accuse him of violating Jenna J's patents, but I thought that would be inappropriate.

On a serious note, I just don't get it. Who's he going to sue? His customers? Red Hat? If you strike at Red Hat, you're striking (these days) at Oracle, and MS doesn't want a piece of that action. That's assuming that IBM, Dell or HP don't get upset, since they sell a lot of Red Hat. Sure, they could go with the officially sanctioned Linux version from Novell, but if people really wanted Novell they would have bought it over Red Hat in the first place. Customers who ask these companies for Linux are really asking for Red Hat, and only part of that is branding and successful advertisement. Red Hat makes a great product, and while SUSE is nice (but now untouchable to me), I still think Red Hat is substantially better and easier to use.

dinotrac

Nov 17, 2006
9:26 PM EDT
This all bears watching...

Microsoft has the resources to push its patent claims.

Most companies that are not Microsoft -- tons of free cash and a business where revenues aren't tied very tightly to costs -- must carefully consider whether to wield their patents as weapons. Generally speaking, there are two defenses to a patent infringement claim:

1. We didn't infringe your stupid patent, or 2. Your stupid patent isn't valid.

An invalid patent is a valuable thing...until somebody actually establishes legally that it is invalid. At that moment it becomes worthless. So...if you have a shaky patent, you prefer to club people over the head with it and collect blood money. You don't really want to go to court because the other side might kill your golden goose.

Microsoft, however, is so freakin' loaded, that they may not care.





rijelkentaurus

Nov 18, 2006
4:20 AM EDT
>Microsoft has the resources to push its patent claims.

Yes, but only to a certain extent and only against certain companies. I think Red Hat is big enough to pose a threat in court if push came to shove. I know Oracle, IBM and the others are.

>1. We didn't infringe your stupid patent, or >2. Your stupid patent isn't valid.

3. An error in good faith; we'll take that code out immediately, our apologies.

I don't know how well that one would fly as a defense, but if MS is really concerned about infringing code (and Novell says that there isn't any), that code can be taken out or proven patent-free if we knew what it was. This is where's Red Hat's assurance program is a good thing. Sure, they indemnify you now, but they also still guarantee that they will rewrite any offending code so that you can still use the software.
dinotrac

Nov 18, 2006
6:08 AM EDT
rijel -

I've spent a lot more time with copyrights than patents, so I just went on a little spin along Google....

I must dive more deeply into this stuff (in my abundant spare time!!!) but, Microsoft's task may not be that easy...

1. Damages require notice. That could stamped into the product, on a label on the box, etc. In the case it is not feasible to provide notice -- or that notice is not sufficient to alert somebody -- specific notice is required. In other words, if Microsoft can't establish that reasonable notice has been provided, Option 3 might just preclude damages, or, at least, significant damages -- but only if the error is in good faith and not willful.

2. Non-willful infringement damages seem to be based on a computation of lost profits. In other words, how much more money would Microsoft have made if there had been negotiations between them and the infringing parties?

I wonder how this argument would play out:

Why, your honor, there would be no profit lost. That same functionality can be implement in x ways, of which only y ways infringe the patent claim. A free software project has no budget for royalties or salaries and makes no profits from which to pay them. So...we would never have negotiated royalties. We would have used a different implementation and things would be exactly as they are today.

3. There is real danger in the case of willful infringement, including treble damages and the award of attorney's fees. There is, however, also a real danger -- including the award of attorney's fees, for pursuing a patent claim in bad faith.

At the moment, all we have is hot air, so, any scenario can be imagined.



rijelkentaurus

Nov 18, 2006
7:07 AM EDT
>Microsoft's task may not be that easy...

Good.

>That same functionality can be implement in x ways, of which only y ways infringe the patent claim.

And if MS would inform folks of what the code is, it would only be implemented in x ways, and y ways would go the way of the Balmer...um, I mean the dodo.

If there was willful infringement...wouldn't SCO have been better able to prove it?

>At the moment, all we have is hot air, so, any scenario can be imagined.

True. Of course, most of MS is hot air, so we should be used to it. I don't think this all is going to go anywhere. They've rattled this saber before.
dinotrac

Nov 18, 2006
7:14 AM EDT
> If there was willful infringement...wouldn't SCO have been better able to prove it?

Different case, different claims.

SCO was suing on the basis of its rights to what was formerly know as Unixware.
jimf

Nov 18, 2006
7:31 AM EDT
> most of MS is hot air, so we should be used to it. I don't think this all is going to go anywhere. They've rattled this saber before.

A protection racket only works if the intended victims all cave to the threat. While that appears to be what's happened this time with Novell, the rest of the the Linux community is yelling foul at the top of their lungs.

In reality, MS stands to loose more than Linux in legal action. What if a court decides that all their 'patients' and claims are frivolous? Not good for their stock I think. In any case the public perception of MS (already pretty shabby) will get worse not better. Do they really want to go to court again?
dinotrac

Nov 18, 2006
8:23 AM EDT
>A protection racket only works if the intended victims all cave to the threat. While that appears to be what's happened this time with Novell,

I have yet to see any evidence that Novell has caved into anything. At minimum, Microsoft has agreed to pay Novell more than $300 million.

In terms of specific breakouts -- not to be completely trusted because the old used car salesman's trick of giving you more for your trade-in but tacking it onto the price of your car may apply -- Microsoft is paying Novell at least $108 million dollars up front -- today's money. Novell will pay Microsoft $40 million, more or less, over 5 years, which means most of the money is discounted.

I'd love to cave in like that the next time I buy a house or car!

dcparris

Nov 18, 2006
8:44 AM EDT
Gee, don't you just hate it when the 'patients' get frivolous?
jimf

Nov 18, 2006
8:53 AM EDT
If it's not caving, what are either of these guys getting out of this? Buying something? Discount on what??? Again, this is all FUD and spin.

Bottom line is that MS is the bad (really criminal) element in the software community, and, has been that from the beginning. Just the act of doing any kind of 'deal' with them is enough to set off all sorts of alarms. No wonder the Linux & FOSS community is up in arms.
dinotrac

Nov 18, 2006
9:15 AM EDT
>f it's not caving, what are either of these guys getting out of this?

Umm...seriously now, can't you figure a little bit of that out?

First and foremost, you must remember that Novell != Suse and Suse != Novell. Suse is one part of the whole company.

A. Novell has sued Microsoft on multiple occasions and extracted great big gobs of money out of them. Novell had (or still has) another major lawsuit against them. And...oh...they can afford good lawyers.

Paying gobs of money is one way to make that stuff go away. A win for Microsoft and a win for Novell.

B. Novell has its own patent portfolio, one that Microsoft may wish to use -- that is, may wish to if it isn't already infringing under the covers.

$108 million to buy some peace of mind gets Novell off Microsoft's back and gets Novell $108 million , with an asterisk.

The asterisk is $40 more or less to Microsoft. Suse gets Microsoft off its back, and Microsoft gets to tell the world it licensed certain of its IP to Novell. The real deal here is $68 million more or less to Novell (not chump change for a struggling company). The actual allocations come under the category of "funny money" -- negotiating points to help seal the deal one way or the other.

C. Novell's Directory Services is a very good product that has been losing ground to Microsoft's Active Directory. To the extent that the interoperability agreements yield fruit, they are good for both companies. Novell needs to play well with Microsoft and Microsoft has to face the fact that it will be running into Linux all over the place.

Don't know about you, but those all seem like benefits to me.

jimf

Nov 18, 2006
9:22 AM EDT
Lol, I'm developing a real hatred of large Corporations, and Lawyers...
dek

Nov 18, 2006
10:13 AM EDT
To tell you the truth, I'm Kind of wondering if Balmer's words aren't actionable. If M$ has proof of GNU/Linux infringement, then they need to show it. If they don't have proof then they are liable for unfair competition and slander.

I'm sure a legal mind will take this argument a part. ;-)

Don K.
rijelkentaurus

Nov 18, 2006
10:22 AM EDT
>Lol, I'm developing a real hatred of large Corporations, and Lawyers...

The last few weeks have been like steroids to that development, I bet.

Hasn't Novell said that they are NOT infringing on any MS IP? Because if they thought they were they could not distribute SUSE in good faith.

I want to know if that agreement specifically states anything of the sort, or if it's a general "We're agreeing to get along" sort of thing and Balmer is just huffing.

Something out of a paper bag, I bet.
jimf

Nov 18, 2006
10:37 AM EDT
> Something out of a paper bag, I bet.

Sounds like everyone is just blowing into the paper bag to stave off an anxiety attack. Pretty expensive sack though...
galeru

Nov 18, 2006
2:03 PM EDT
Personally, I wonder if dek has a point. By saying that Linux or Redhat or anyone else is infringing, isn't that slander, assuming it's wrong? Of course, the only way to prove truth in this case would actually be to show, in a court of law, that Linux is infringing. Otherwise, Redhat should sue, because Ballmer is attempting to reduce the profitability of their business. Dino, is this true, or am I looking at defamation cases wrong?
rijelkentaurus

Nov 18, 2006
2:17 PM EDT
>Otherwise, Redhat should sue, because Ballmer is attempting to reduce the profitability of their business.

Agreed. Oracle should sue also. And IBM. And Lineox. And Whitebox. And Startcom. Those are just whose Linux is based on Red Hat. What about Shuttleworth? He's got a couple of bucks. Linspire isn't not a poor company. Or Xandros. In short, there are many companies who may potentially be hurt by this FUD nonsense. I think they should file a class action suit...or whatever is appropriate.
dinotrac

Nov 18, 2006
3:27 PM EDT
>By saying that Linux or Redhat or anyone else is infringing, isn't that slander, assuming it's wrong?

It doesn't sound like Ballmer has said anything actionable, but is coming close to the line. One interesting question...who is being defamed by a phrase like "Linux is using our intellectual property" ?

What exactly does that mean? Who is Linux? Close enough, perhaps, that someone with resources to burn might take action, but why? If Microsoft has claims to pursue, let Microsoft put them on the table. Who wants to spend money -- and image -- filing a business defamation suit, only to have Microsoft file specific infringement claims.

Look at it this way: Preferred scenario:

1. Microsoft files suit, 2. IBM (or whomever) answers, "Ludicrous, invalid patent , we are the actual holders of prior art, etc."

Nice punch-counter-punch PR play.

VS.

1.IBM files business libel suit,

2. Microsoft responds by filing specific infringement claims.

Nice counter-punch for Microsoft, and IBM's (or whomever's) response looks weak, even though it is exactly the same response as scenario 1.

Sounds like bad tactics to me....unless...

At some point, if Microsoft keeps dancing the way they have been, somebody may just feel compelled to force the issue.











rijelkentaurus

Nov 18, 2006
3:41 PM EDT
>Look at it this way: >Preferred scenario:

>1. Microsoft files suit, >2. IBM (or whomever) answers, "Ludicrous, invalid patent , we are the actual holders of prior art, etc."

>Nice punch-counter-punch PR play.

>VS.

>1.IBM files business libel suit,

>2. Microsoft responds by filing specific infringement claims.

Or perhaps something slightly different would happen. Perhaps IBM (using this example only as a for instance) decides that .NET infringes upon one of their patents and files suit against MS for that. MS looks a little worse for that, I think. The real opening salvo could having nothing directly to do with the threats of MS.
dinotrac

Nov 18, 2006
4:51 PM EDT
>Perhaps IBM (using this example only as a for instance) decides that .NET infringes upon one of their patents

You don't just "decide" that somebody is infringing. Bringing a patent case in bad faith can be very expensive and you get to pick up the other guys legal fees as icding for the cake.

Microsoft has a huge advantage here: Open Source code is, well, open.

They can scour it for something that could, at the very least, be used as a good faith basis for believing that a patent has been infringed.
rijelkentaurus

Nov 18, 2006
6:18 PM EDT
>>Perhaps IBM (using this example only as a for instance) decides that .NET infringes upon one of their patents

I'm not actually speaking of a bad faith lawsuit, I'm saying that MS is likely infringing on someone's patents and that they might decide to take a whack at them, in good faith, and that was an example of something that MIGHT happen. It could be any number of companies making the claim, and it could even be the FSF claiming that MS has GPL code that they haven't released. Whatever the case, if MS decides that they want to go after someone infringing on their patents, there are lots of companies that can strike back for the same reasons on their own.

The patent system is completely screwed up and no one is really "safe." There are numerous factors at work that would likely preclude any action on the part of a company that has products to sell.
dinotrac

Nov 18, 2006
7:06 PM EDT
> I'm not actually speaking of a bad faith lawsuit,

"Whew!" says the fat little man at the other end of the conversation. Too much of that stuff going on already.

As I said, Microsoft has the advantage here, having complete and free access to the Linux source code. Doesn't mean that IBM can't and won't find some infringement if they are inclined to look, but they do have the harder task.

rijelkentaurus

Nov 18, 2006
7:23 PM EDT
>As I said, Microsoft has the advantage here, having complete and free access to the Linux source code.

If we really are talking about just code. My understanding (limited, limited) of patent "crud" is that there are things like "concepts" or "processes" that are involved, not necessarily code at all. I think of eBay and the "concept" of online auctions.

It's even ridiculous in looking at source code, IMO. IANAP, but I would think that there are only so many ways you can make a call to a MySQL database from within the Java language, or something along those lines. There's bound to be code the same in numerous projects, the same way that we all use the same words to communicate.

Hey, I have an idea!

I hereby lay claim to the concept of making baseless claims against things that you don't like because you can't compete with them.

Microsoft owes me money!!
dek

Nov 19, 2006
2:33 AM EDT
>>I hereby lay claim to the concept of making baseless claims against things that you don't like because you can't compete with them.

Sorry, Darl McBride already holds that patent!!

FWIW. I kind of agree with Dino (don't fall over in shock, Dino) that the better scenario is to let MS start it off by suing someone for infringement. PROVIDED that IBM will be there to pick up the defense. I just think it's awfully questionable tactics for Balmer to go around claimng that Linux infringes. It's a nice protection racket but . . .

Don K.
rijelkentaurus

Nov 19, 2006
4:03 AM EDT
>Sorry, Darl McBride already holds that patent!!

And MS already paid those royalties, eh? Oy!
henke54

Nov 19, 2006
4:32 AM EDT
Quoting:If it's a patent issue then they wont be able to do that. Copyright would be "You can't use this code, so you have to write it a different way." Patents are: "You can't have code that does this."

I'm concerned that they'll first establish Open Office as using VBA so it is popular, and then they'll bring litigation into it and you'll get a licensed version from Novell and a gimped version from everyone else. Home users might not care much, but businesses will go for the one called "Open Office Professional" or whatever other term they slap on it. And that will hurt the freedom and spirit of the Open Office project.

As to the inability to sue infringers of the patents, IANAL, but I suspect that it's possible to try. It is not Microsoft that has released the infringing code, but a separate company called Novell. The fact that Novell now has an agreement with Microsoft that they wont be sued for infringing on their patents, doesn't prevent Microsoft suing others. We here may be able to see what is morally wrong with Microsoft's behaviour, but it doesn't mean that a court will act accordingly. The fight alone will be damaging.

There's a side issue which is whether we want Open Office to support VBA? Obviously it fills a considerable need on the part of business which will make it far easier to migrate to Open Office in theory. However, the net result is to encourage VBA to be the default way of implementing macros in Open Office. After all, if you have the choice of your spreadsheet being compatible with both Excel and Calc, or Calc alone, isn't it more logical to make it compatible with both. But VBA is under Microsoft's control. No one else can expand it, modify it. And Microsoft products will always have the edge in implementation whilst Open Office will be the one with compatability problems and glitches. Basically, the interoperability in practice, could be one-sided enough that Open Office looks like a poor clone of MS Office. It isn't. In several ways it is more powerful, but when it plays on Mircosoft's turf, it looks bad. Novell may not see things this way, but then how many of Microsoft's previous partners are still around?

Reading this back, it comes across as anti-Microsoft paranoia, but everything here seems feasible to me and Microsoft is not run by idiots, but by highly intelligent people. And morality is certainly no restraint on the company's behaviour as we've seen countless times before. MS Office is critical to Microsoft's powerbase. Not merely because it's good and sells well, but because it's popularity helps them maintain a de facto file standard which is the biggest barrier to competitors establishing themselves. And perhaps more importantly, because if you need MS Office, you need MS Windows. If you're free of MS Office, then Linux becomes much more plausible for your company standard.

Open Office is a colossal threat to Microsoft. It can't be underestimated. And I think everything their new partners do and contribute has to be looked at a little more carefully. If any Novell engineer happens to be reading this, then I'm sorry but that now includes you and it certainly includes this VBA code in Open Office.

-Harmony.
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=302066&page=2
dinotrac

Nov 19, 2006
7:01 AM EDT
>Patents are: "You can't have code that does this."

No, not exactly. It's more like "You can't have code that does this in that way."

This is obscured by the fact that a lot of really crappy patents have been granted that should not stand up to the scrutiny of an infringement action. Shameful, utterly shameful on the part of the PTO, and a real black mark for the US.

To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, one of the most famous cases in the history of American patent law involved Samuel Morse's invention of the telegraph. He made eight separate patent claims, including the specific mechanism of the telegraph, the use of a dot-dash alphabet, and the use of electromagnetic forces to render characters at a distance.

The Supreme Court accepted all of his claims except for the last -- stating, in effect, that patents are not applied to general well-known principles, but to practical applications of those principles. In the case of the telegraph, there probably weren't many feasible alternative approaches to making a telegraph, so Morse's telegraph froze out competition during the life of the patent.

In many cases, however, there are reasonable alternatives, hence the phrase "inventing around." If patent A says protects use of an oblong thingamabob to inject fuel into diesel engines, you might get similar results with a triangular thingamajulie and avoid infringing the patent.
helios

Nov 19, 2006
3:17 PM EDT
"...They can scour it for something that could, at the very least, be used as a good faith basis for believing that a patent has been infringed."

AFAIAK, THAT is the only purpose the "Linux Lab", set up in Redmond ever had. Yes, open source is open to everyone so MS did the only smart thing and began picking Linux apart just to see what they could find.

I believe the real surprise for MS will be just how many small and medium businesses like mine have flown under the radar and have completely switched to Open Source software and GNU/Linux. They may think they have an idea of it now, but once they start really looking into it, the malox will flow as freely as FUD at the Campus of Microsoft. Many small businesses just quietly let their licenses expire and made the switch. I promise you...the pressure of a Microsoft field rep in trying to rescue a failing account is a full frontal assault. I firmly believe AOL learned their tactics from MS...there are some strange parallels.

h
rijelkentaurus

Nov 19, 2006
6:05 PM EDT
>I believe the real surprise for MS will be just how many small and medium businesses like mine have flown under the radar and have completely switched to Open Source software and GNU/Linux.

It's something you can't really measure. My use of PCLinuxOS at home doesn't really "count" towards the use of Linux on the desktop, does it? But MS still gets cred for the XP sticker on the side. I wouldn't use XP on this thing for love or money.

If you don't buy Red Hat or Novell or Xandros, etc, you don't really register on the radar of any official statistics. MS has used that to make its usage look more widespread than it really is. MS stands at approx. 90% of desktops, I think, by "official" count. How many are like me and now run Linux on it? Perhaps it's not much, but I guess 5% or so, maybe a touch more, a touch less. That takes MS down to 85%. What about whiteboxes? What about people using the free OSes like PCLOS or Debian or Ubuntu? You can't really measure it accurately.

I think MS would be surprised also. I hope they choke on the Malox.
dinotrac

Nov 19, 2006
6:07 PM EDT
>I think MS would be surprised also. I hope they choke on the Malox.

That would be OK. Personally, I'd prefer to see IBM give it to them as an enema. Bottle and all.
rijelkentaurus

Nov 19, 2006
6:45 PM EDT
>That would be OK. Personally, I'd prefer to see IBM give it to them as an enema. Bottle and all.

8)
hkwint

Nov 20, 2006
9:40 AM EDT
Maybe it would be interesting to look at this from a world-economy / politics point of view:

If Microsoft says Linux infringes on its 'IP', what "might" happen? Some of my wild speculations:

The IP isn't about copyright as far as we know. Therefore, it would have to be about patents. In the European Union, software patents aren't enforceable, as far as we know; though the judge hasn't confirmed. If Microsoft asked (up to the) European High Court whether their patents are enforceable and the judge says "No", that means their IP has a value of zero in Europe.

Same might as well go for Russia, India and China. But IF their IP is enforceabeable in the US, than what? US 'Linux' makers have a problem then; probably all Linux makers will leave the US. They can distribute their stuff outside the US, and outside the US, companies and governments can still use it. The US defense will probably be angry because they use Linux also, just like the French and Indian defense, as far as I know.

Therefore, this countries will be more innovative in the software sector. Also, they will have to spend less money for licenses, so less money flows to the USA.

As usual, Microsoft will ask the US government to ask all other governments to respect Microsofts "Intellectual Property". How would, say, Neelie Kroes react do you think (hint: She was upset when Microsofts tried to influence her via politics before)? How would Putin react, when they just reached an agreement about the WTO, and someone from the US tells them they STILL don't respect IP? What will China do (hint: they have their 'own' Linux distribution)? How will these 'big' MS consumers think about Microsoft after US politicians tell them they are criminals by not respecting the IP of Microsoft? How 'independent' would that make the US government look?

I would say, that would be a politic game to big - even - for Microsoft.

Therefore, they will do nothing, just barking, I think, and going on to try to make software patents enforceable in the EU, which is difficult because everyone in the EU is watching them, and most watchers don't like them anymore. Everybody outside the US laughs about the US patent system and the stupid wars (and economic damage, in an 'innovative' sense) it causes BTW.
jdixon

Nov 20, 2006
10:13 AM EDT
> Everybody outside the US laughs about the US patent system and the stupid wars (and economic damage, in an 'innovative' sense) it causes BTW.

Whilst we in the US only wish we could laugh at it. :(
rijelkentaurus

Nov 20, 2006
10:51 AM EDT
>Whilst we in the US only wish we could laugh at it. :(

We do laugh at it, but it's an exasperated laugh accompanied by tears and frustration. 8-(
bigg

Nov 20, 2006
12:32 PM EDT
Most of Microsoft's software patents are related to security. Consider the summary for patent 4815162342:

"This algorithm extends existing methods to allow software known as 'spyware' to take total control of a computer. Previous implementations required spyware authors to penetrate four layers of protection and did not allow control of the entire machine. With this innovation, authors of spyware will be able to take complete control of the user's machine without requiring the penetration of any layers of protection."

I agree that Microsoft needs to be compensated if Linux is infringing on its intellectual property. Otherwise Microsoft will have no incentive to devote so many resources to this sort of R&D, especially when we consider that open source developers do not devote any resources to this line of software development. Just consider the proliferation of security vulnerabilities after the introduction of Windows XP.
SFN

Nov 20, 2006
12:42 PM EDT
OK. Who else looked it up?
rijelkentaurus

Nov 20, 2006
2:14 PM EDT
Man, I'm Lost.

What?
dcparris

Nov 20, 2006
3:18 PM EDT
> Most of Microsoft's software patents are related to security

Security? And, given your example, to allow spyware authors to take total control of a computer, SECURITY? That's one patent infringement I'd hate to see in Linux!
hkwint

Nov 20, 2006
3:21 PM EDT
(Sorry about hijacking the conversation, but it may be nice to give some software-patent info.)

Quoting:We do laugh at it, but it's an exasperated laugh accompanied by tears and frustration.


Well, you're not the only one who is frustrated: There are still some 'groups' and some 'people' here in Europe (you know who they are probably), trying to make the patent system the way it was (that means, worse than today) in the US. Some EP's (European Parliament Members) were offered some ice cream by 'someone' ahum, and the 'boss' of the legal stuff in the European Parliament also worked for some lobby-office which was also lobbying for Microsoft (he tried to push trough the patents BTW, but that was coincidence). So, as you often see, Europeans are trying to copy American behavior, including the bad behavior. Over here is some kind of organization (somewhat like the EFF), the FFII, which is really informed and competent, which always follows all these attempts of such persons, and even tries to hijack some 'internet votings' for the worst lobby, and the ones the most sensitive to a bad lobby etc.

Thank God, I see a trend in the US: The US supreme court recently declared some patents invalid, like obvious ones, and tried to end the injunctions. I read US business asked for that. But even after the US supreme court stopped that kind of 'stupid behavior' of patent trolls, some 'business' in Europe wants to implement that stuff in our so called 'community patent'. The community patent tries to make it easier to ask a patent which could be enforced in all EU countries. In some small letters somewhere in some footers, they also say the patents which are yet permitted, including software patents, become enforceable. They are forced to do it this sneaky way, since the last time they tried to make software patents enforceable in a visible manner, they caused a unique phenomenon in the EU history: It was the first time the European Parliament voted against a bill after second reading (if I remember well).

Bigg: I read a lot of those MS patents. I even wrote a story about it, called

101 patents Microsoft may infringe

http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/34440/index.html

Maybe I should repost that story, though it wasn't very serious, but it does show how stupid software patents are in a nice way.
hkwint

Nov 20, 2006
3:30 PM EDT
Hehe, reading that story about the 101 patents, I see the name Ballmer showing up again. Ballmer told in August 2004 that “somebody will come and look for money owing to the rights for that intellectual property”. That was a thread to Asian countries back then, and some people were severely worried back then. Nothing happened. If I had MS stocks, I would really like to ask Ballmer, why MS didn't cash their IP back in August 2004.

If you don't know about Ballmers August 2004 bluff: Go one, please read that story, you might be surprised how history repeats itself. Hmm, there's a story in that...
rijelkentaurus

Nov 20, 2006
3:32 PM EDT
>4815162342

4 8 15 16 23 42

The numbers on 'Lost.' I just couldn't leave folks wondering. A rather interesting Troll, however.
dcparris

Nov 20, 2006
3:35 PM EDT
I really need to watch more T.V. :-)
jimf

Nov 20, 2006
3:37 PM EDT
> Most of Microsoft's software patents are related to security

That is just so 'wrong' on so many levels... :D
rijelkentaurus

Nov 20, 2006
3:41 PM EDT
>I really need to watch more T.V. :-)

The only thing on TV I like to watch is 'Lost.' It's my guilty pleasure. I like a good documentary once in a while, and I enjoy catching Olbermann's well-thought rants on Google video, and I've watched 'Reservoir Dogs' a hundred times, but I am very tired of American mass media. They are largely to blame for the slow adoption of Free Software, because their "truth" -- and not just their advertising -- can be purchased for money, of which MS has a lot. They can also be blamed for a lot of other things, at least indirectly. I think we look in the mirror first to assess blame....

Okay, I'll stop rambling now. The soapbox is under the bed again.

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