You asked for it You got it.

Story: Newegg.com Consumer Report.Total Replies: 23
Author Content
usacomputertec

Jan 06, 2008
8:51 PM EST
It's called the Lemon Law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law

http://www.atg.wa.gov/LemonLaw/default.aspx

"Other lemon laws

Lemon laws are not limited to cars. There are RV lemon laws, boat lemon laws, motorcycle, wheelchair, and computer lemon laws."

Not only did this laptop not boot properly out of the box, froze when Internet Exploder was opened, but now it does not connect to certain networks even though they are open. When we reboot into Linux we can connect to any Wireless Network.

This is a Lemon.
Sander_Marechal

Jan 06, 2008
11:06 PM EST
Did you actuallty read the links you posted? Because it tells you exactly why your boycott rant is off-base:

1) Lemon Laws are state laws, not federal laws. So Newegg isn't breaking any federal laws. But we told you exactly this in response to the original story.

2) Newegg is based in California. California does have a Lemon Law but it only applies to certain vehicles:

Quoting:The law applies to a new motor vehicle that is bought or used primarily for personal, family or household purposes. The law also applies to a new motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight under 10,000 pounds that is bought or used primarily for business purposes by a person, including a partnership, limited liability company, corporation, association, or any other legal entity, to which not more than five motor vehicles are registered in this state.


From: http://ag.ca.gov/consumers/general/lemon.php
hkwint

Jan 07, 2008
12:52 AM EST
Not a bad response Sander, for someone not living in the US!
Sander_Marechal

Jan 07, 2008
12:57 AM EST
@hans: That's what you get from spending too much time reading Groklaw. You might learn something :-)
dinotrac

Jan 07, 2008
5:28 AM EST
And guys --

1. Lemon laws usually place responsibility on the manufacturer rather than the seller, although the seller usually stands in as the manufacturer's agent, especially in the case of cars.

2. I'm not aware of (different from saying none exist) of any lemon laws that don't allow the manufacturer/seller a chance to make things right before giving you the right to a refund.

3. Wait a minute ! I don't remember any claim that the computer was defective. I think they just didn't like it. That doesn't bring a lemon law into play anyway, even if one did apply.
jdixon

Jan 07, 2008
5:51 AM EST
> Not only did this laptop not boot properly out of the box, froze when Internet Exploder was opened, but now it does not connect to certain networks even though they are open. When we reboot into Linux we can connect to any Wireless Network.

> This is a Lemon.

It runs Windows, doesn't it? That sort of the definition of lemon (especially Vista). Does it work properly with Linux? If so, it's a software problem, not hardware, and NewEgg is off the hook.

And, as Dino points out, even under a lemon law NewEgg is not required to offer you a refund, merely repair or replace the unit.
usacomputertec

Jan 07, 2008
8:36 PM EST
Well even though they are based out of California or wherever it does not matter because they were doing business here. The transaction took place on my desktop here in Pomeroy WA. So the laws here apply.

As I said in the other topic I'm not done searching for answers A lot of documentation is for me and opinions are against me. Government workers agree with me but you guys don't. So I'll keep digging until I find the truth.
Sander_Marechal

Jan 07, 2008
10:15 PM EST
Quoting:Well even though they are based out of California or wherever it does not matter because they were doing business here. The transaction took place on my desktop here in Pomeroy WA. So the laws here apply.


Doesn't matter. You bought from them so you agree to their Terms of Service, which state:

Quoting:Any dispute arising out of or related to these Terms and Conditions or the sales transaction between Newegg.com and Customer shall be governed by the laws of the State of California, without regard to its conflicts of law rules. Specifically, the validity, interpretation, and performance of this agreement shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on the International Sale of Goods. Newegg.com and Customer consent to the exclusive jurisdiction and the exclusive venue of the State Courts of the State of California, Los Angeles County, to resolve any dispute between them related hereto, and the parities waive all rights to contest this exclusive jurisdiction and venue of such Courts. Finally, the Customer also agree not to bring any legal action, based upon any legal theory including contract, tort, equity or otherwise, against Newegg.com that is more than one year after the date of the applicable invoice.


That means Californian law applies and you agreed to this when purchasing. (See http://www.newegg.com/Info/PolicyAgreement.aspx Purchase agreement, point 7).

Regardless, even *if* the WA law applied instead, the WA Lemon Law also only applies to vehicles:

Quoting:The law covers most classes of motor vehicles including "demonstrators" which have an original retail purchase or lease in Washington. Note: if the vehicle had its original retail sale or lease prior to July 23, 2007, an additional eligibility requirement is that it must have also been initially registered in Washington (a military exception may apply).


Really, you should read your own links before you post them. Getting your legal advice from Wikipedia is really stupid. As is getting legal advice from me. IANAL, but at least I can still read...
usacomputertec

Jan 07, 2008
11:16 PM EST
So you can sign an agreement with a foreign company that exists outside of the US when you buy their product that says that US law does not apply to their sales or business practices? Hmmm. That's kind of funny isn't it. The concept that you can sign the protection of the US Government away at the drop of a pen. ???

I hereby sign that the constitution of the USA and Bill Of Rights and any other US laws or legal rights do not apply to the person who signs below. This person is still a US citizen but has for fitted all of his inaleable rights to a corporation. This corporation now owns the person who signed below.

How would that hold water?
Sander_Marechal

Jan 07, 2008
11:30 PM EST
Quoting:How would that hold water?


Just look at Gitmo for an example.
akfromak

Jan 08, 2008
12:25 AM EST
"So you can sign an agreement with a foreign company that exists outside of the US when you buy their product that says that US law does not apply to their sales or business practices?"

Yes. Its not even limited to foreign companies. It happens all the time, right here in the US. One common feature to *any* contract that I've ever seen, is that they *all* have whats called a "choice of law" provision, that states which jurisdiction the contract will be controlled under.

In the case of Newegg, that jurisdiction is California, whether you like it or not, according to the terms of the sale.

Anyway, enough of the speculation and misinterpretations, why don't you just go to the horses mouth?:

Washington State Office of the Attorney General http://atg.wa.gov/FileAComplaint.aspx

Questions about filing a complaint?

Not sure if this is a complaint? Call 1-800-551-4636 or 1-800-833-6384 for the hearing impaired. Our call centers are open 10 a.m. to 3 p.m. M-F.
newmikey

Jan 08, 2008
3:56 AM EST
As I come across this daily in the logistics business, besides the simple provisions as to applicable law inside the contract, there is also the simple fact of sales conditions or INCOTERMS.

If you, as a US citizen, purchase something EXW in, let's say the UK and have it sent to you through the postal service, this is a UK local purchase under UK law and you are just a UK consumer who happens to carry a US passport. You'd probably pay local VAT as well although you'd be able to recover that on export.

It is all a question of the moment of transfer of ownership and the transfer of risk.

I'd say for easy reference, compare it to a US citizen claiming his constitutional right to carry a handgun when on vacation in Europe. He would find his butt in jail and the key thrown away.

Rights do not stick to you like glue and jurisdictions can clash.
theboomboomcars

Jan 08, 2008
4:38 AM EST
usacomputertec- It appears as though lemon laws do not really apply to your situation. Even if they apply to computers, which it looks like in both CA and WA they don't, since under the lemon laws the manufacturer has the opportunity to fix the problem before having to issue a replacement.

Though if the screen is smaller than advertised, ie. they said it was a 15.4" and you got a 14", then you may be able to look into faulty advertising or bait and switch laws. IANAL so I have no idea if these laws will apply to your situation or not. Akfromak has some good advice check with the WA Attorney General to see what they have to say about the matter, they would actually know.
dinotrac

Jan 08, 2008
5:47 AM EST
>Though if the screen is smaller than advertised, ie. they said it was a 15.4" and you got a 14", then you may be able to look into faulty advertising or bait and switch laws.

If one thing was advertised and another thing was sent, that is a different issue. You are entitled to receive what you paid for or a substitute that you agree is satisfactory.
thenixedreport

Jan 08, 2008
6:17 AM EST
Well, at least the discussion has been pretty good thus far. If memory serves correct, I believe there are Federal Lemon-type laws as well. This type of research would make for an interesting article for FOSS consumers. :)
azerthoth

Jan 08, 2008
6:21 AM EST
I'm not sure where FOSS fits into the picture on that, but usefull knowledge none the less
thenixedreport

Jan 08, 2008
9:39 AM EST
Well, for one thing, it can help FOSS consumers on the hardware end of things.
jdixon

Jan 08, 2008
10:26 AM EST
> I'm not sure where FOSS fits into the picture...

Do you have a local vendor you can buy a Linux box from? Count yourself lucky if you do. Most of us have to order or boxes and have them shipped to us. Thus, this is both a cautionary (always be aware of a company's return policy) and informational article (NewEgg does in fact seem to go above and beyond most companies in trying to make things right for the customer, though they failed in this case).
hkwint

Jan 08, 2008
12:53 PM EST
Quoting:Well, for one thing, it can help FOSS consumers on the hardware end of things.


Indeed, I'm glad this came up. I've been considering buying hardware in the US in the past - hardware prices in Euro's and Dollars are the same most of the time - while the dollar only costs 68 Eurocents (today), until I found out about 'customs' and I have to pay VAT for the things I import. After that, prices are almost the same (though I don't know if I can recover US VAT?) and I have to pay for shipping. I have been wondering which laws would apply, but I understand now that if I buy something in the US, it would be under the law of that particular state.

I was also wondering - since they don't sell Dell Ubuntu computers in my country, if I can import them from GB,D or F. That's no problem, I don't have to pay any taxes at all if I do, since I (NL) and those countries all are EU. Not that I'm going to buy a Dell, just wondering.

Lately, I was wondering how expensive / difficult it would be to import an Eee (with Linux of course) directly from Taiwan; they're not sold in my country AFAIK. If you have experience importing hardware from Taiwan please PM me / let me know, I'm quite seriously considering this though I can't find a Taiwanese 'Newegg'.

Sorry for going offtopic; back to the Lemon law (wonder why US people call rotten cars Lemons?)
thenixedreport

Jan 08, 2008
12:58 PM EST
Because the issue of a car or a product being a dud after purchase and on arrival tends to be quite sour......
Sander_Marechal

Jan 08, 2008
2:39 PM EST
Quoting:Lately, I was wondering how expensive / difficult it would be to import an Eee (with Linux of course) directly from Taiwan


A collegua of mine has done that. It cost him 258 euro's including shipping. I'll ask him which store he got it from.
usacomputertec

Jan 09, 2008
9:36 PM EST
I'm good at exporting I export to Japan, and other countries all the time.
Sander_Marechal

Jan 09, 2008
10:50 PM EST
That colleague of mine got his Eee though qbitonline.com. The Eee ships there for $395 which comes to about EUR 258, including shipping to The Netherlands. Note that you'll probably still have to pay VAT and import tax on top of that. I think all-in-all my colleague paid a little over EUR 300 for it. Still a lot cheaper than the EUR 400 they sell it for in Europe.
hkwint

Jan 10, 2008
1:15 AM EST
Ah, I forgot, I need an English OS indeed.

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