The GPLv3 Debate: Viewing The Landscape
IntroBased on comments I have seen in the LXer forums and elsewhere, it seems that some people feel that the anti-tivo-ization clause in the GNU General Public License v3 somehow violates the spirit of the current version. This group is ignoring history. Others seem to think that the GPL is the wrong tool to fight DRM. This group may or may not be right. And then there are those who, while not fully buying into the FSF philosophy to begin with, nevertheless chose to use the license it maintains. History RevisitedThe GNU General Public License, like it or not, has always been a philosophical document. It has always aimed at ensuring that users have the freedom, or right, to control the software that runs on the hardware they own. The GPL has always aimed at ensuring that modifications could be, if the developer so chose, redistributed so that the whole community could benefit. The issue of controlling a printer - a hardware item, mind you - was precisely what led to the development of Free Software as a mission, and ultimately, the idea of a copyleft license. I think a large number of people - including Torvalds - are missing the point of the GPL. The Anti-DRM clause is not only in the spirit of the GPL, it is the purpose behind Free Software in the first place. Remember that Xerox system Stallman couldn't fix? Stallman initially wrote a program, and released it as Free Software. When James Gosling back-peddled on distributing Gosling EMACS as Free Software, and sold his version to UniPress, Stallman responded by developing the GNU General Public License. This occurred well before Torvalds came along with the Linux kernel. The historical perspective is important, especially since so many in the community today fail to fully grasp the nature of the beast. Free Software is meant to protect the freedoms of users - whether or not they are (or choose to become) developers. Free Software is, in fact, derived from a philosophy - even many people do not share that philosophy. Given the number of people who do not share the GNU philosophy, it would seem self-evident that our community is not one, but two separate communities, whose ideas sometimes intersect. Stallman's CharacterSome people, both community members and outsiders alike, have attempted to call Stallman's character into question. Questions have been raised about whether he's ever held a real job, about his seemingly bizarre behavior, and whether he is even relevant anymore. Most of the issues raised have little real bearing on the nature of the GPLv3, but it shouldn't hurt to point out a few things that most people could discover on their own, using their favorite search engine. Even so, from journalists to the kernel team, people have been raising side issues to charge the air, or maybe just to get a charge. Richard Stallman earned his living early on by selling tapes of Free Software, along with printed manuals. He also earned money teaching classes and doing programming work - usually porting EMACS to new platforms. Eventually, the Free Software Foundation became the distribution vehicle, and he (presumably) earns some sort of income from that and speaking fees. Gee, that sounds an awful lot like the way many consultants make a living today, with the possible exception of having to sign non-disclosure statements for the projects they work on. It's ridiculous that people who never really bought into the Free Software Foundation's philosophy now complain about politicizing the GPL, or that GNU philosophy is not pragmatic, despite its obviously pragmatic benefits. I'm also curious as to how, when the FSF adds a clause and 'consults' the kernel development team as to whether they would be interested (as acknowledged by at least one developer), some developers accuse the FSF of "trying to tell them what to do with their code". Come on, guys. Either the FSF is trying to order you around, or they consulted you. Which is it? And weren't they trying to tell you what to do with your code when they first developed the GPL (to allow people to share it, for instance)? Daniel Lyons, of Forbes, recently wrote of Stallman, "But then, Richard Stallman rarely is pragmatic--and in some ways he is downright bizarre." Rarely pragmatic? How can he say that about the man who wrote Copyleft: Pragmatic Idealism? And the GPL has proven to be rather pragmatic. Lyons goes on to point out that Stallman hasn't done much programming in the last 10 years. What he omits is that Stallman seems to have Carpel Tunnel Syndrome, which limits his ability to do much with a keyboard. He also calls into question some of Stallman's bizarre behavior, such as 'nasal sex', which is really nothing more than smelling flowers. Lyons, and anyone else, would be a fool not to see the humor in such antics. Maybe Lyons isn't privy to all the gory details, but much of the history happened before I even knew what hacking was - and I still managed to discover a few key facts. I know that Stallman faces at least one medical condition that hinders his ability to develop. I know that Stallman has lived what he preaches. I also know that Stallman has an odd sense of humor. So what? Anyone who can watch a Monty Python movie ought to be able to laugh at Stallman's antics. Some people just don't have a sense of humor. The sad thing is that Stallman has never attacked his critics or opponents in such a vicious manner - not as far as I know. He has always focused clearly on the issues at hand. The Real IssueThe real issue is not whether the FSF is a politically motivated group - we have known all along that they are. It is not whether Stallman is "weird", however you define that. It is not even about whether Stallman is trying to tell others what to do with their code - only the developers can choose the license, and that must be done on its merits. No, the real issue is whether the GPL, or any other license can effectively tackle the challenge of tivoization. We'll examine that in more depth in Part 2 of this discussion tomorrow. |
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Comments (47)
well written
6 earlier comments in the full thread.
It seems you have a rather large blind spot here, so let me see if I can clarify things a bit.
1. ' cult mentality driven mob' Can you cite some examples supporting this? Is he inciting people to attack anyone who doesn't agree with his views? Can you show any examples of him badmouthing or putting anyone else down? Has he attempted to incite anyone against people who do not agree with him?
2. 'hijack a formerly logical ethical and legal evolution toward open software' How? Please cite some specific actions. As far as I can tell, his views are exactly the same as they have always been. What has changed?
You may recall that GPL2 was pretty much just RMS and his lawyers. There were no invitations for community input and review. For GPL3 community input and review has been invited, and it has undergone substantial revisions. Is that the hijacking part? Or the cult mob part?
RMS is definitely being targeted. I'll bet money that if Linus started saying "It's time to take a hard line on free software- take your binary blobs and stick them where the sun don't shine" you'd start seeing the exact same stuff- Linus is old and weird. Linus has lost his way. He used to be cool, but now he's just a weird old man with wrong ideas who'll do anything to remain in the spotlight.
It's the same old tactic of discrediting the messenger. Nothing new, and unfortunately it works.
So...how grouchy will you get if I accuse you of intellectual dishonesty?
A lot of things have happened since GPLV2, most notably the Linux explosion.
It didn't matter that much whether or not RMS solicited advice on V2. The affected universe was much smaller. He came out with a great instrument. That was then and this is now. Linux has happened. Free software is no longer the exclusive province of a small coterie of ubergeeks.
That's a good thing, but it definitely changes things. To pretend it doesn't is to be dishonest.
Can you name any other software licenses that are expected to undergo community review and achieve consensus?
You yourself said somewheres that no one is forcing anyone to use any particular license. GPL2 is still alive and well, as are the entire herd of FOSS licenses. Software authors decide what licenses to use, not RMS. If you're going to make accusations of intellectual dishonesty, you're going to need something with a bit of substance to back them up. More and more this smells like brown monkey syndrome.
It's pretty hard not to discredit the messenger when he is also the 'sole' creator and the promoter, and the interpreter. If you can't see that, I really think you're the one with the blind spot.
> 'RMS is weird and bad.'
I never said that. You guys seem to be the ones thinking along those lines.
I said: RMS's four 'rights' are essentially one mans view of what RMS perceives as 'truth', but, he expects everyone else to recognize and agree with that view unequivocal.
Is that not self evident? And, Is that acceptable to you? Personally, I find that attitude insufferable, and totally counter to any 'freedom'. It's Intellectual dishonesty of the first order.
I say: 'he's made it his life's mission to hijack a formerly logical ethical and legal evolution toward open software, and turn it into a cult mentality driven mob.'
I think you can clearly see the result of that in this forum. If you can't, look inward.
You said: 'his views are exactly the same as they have always been'
No argument there... He's been conning us from the get go.
>You yourself said somewheres that no one is forcing anyone to use any particular license. GPL2 is still alive and well, as are the entire herd of FOSS licenses. Software authors decide what licenses to use, not RMS. If you're going to make accusations of intellectual dishonesty, you're going to need something with a bit of substance to back them up. More and more this smells like brown monkey syndrome.
All of which has what to do with what?
You haven't seen me jumping all over RMS for weirdness,etc. I responded to a single point you made...that RMS didn't seek input on GPLV2. My response is "So what?" The GPL didn't matter nearly as much back then as it matters now. It is dishonest to pretend that the perfectly acceptable approach of 1991 is equally acceptable today.
You are also correct that people are free not to use the GPLV3. I certainly would feel a lot better about it if RMS treated it more like another GPLV2 compatible license as opposed to "the" license. Maybe something akin to the LGPL -- If you don't want your software in a Tivo, choose GPLV3. Trouble is, I don't think there's any way to make the 2 compatible.
My intent was to say that Stallman 'acts' like a nut. That's what I really believe is going on. Sorry, my bad.
Do you use John Kerry's speech writer?
> I think you can clearly see the result of that in this forum. If you can't, look inward.
I think it's probably important at this point to distinguish between a person HAVING a cult following and a person SEEKING a cult following. I believe your position that RMS is the latter. My view would be that the former is more accurate.
Your previous response probably also applies here, so I don't think you need to repeat it. :)
Unfortunately for Kerry, he was almost certainly adlibbing at the time.
You're probably right.
I voted for Bush in 2004, but I don't believe the man can outthink many politicians on the national scene. The Democrats managed to put up one of the few. And they think Karl Rove is their biggest enemy.
I didn't (third party), but I agree that the Democrats are their own worst enemies.
Nope, I said what I wanted to there. True either way, it's ongoing.
> Nope, I said what I wanted to there. True either way, it's ongoing.
Sorry. I don't think I was clear. I meant your response to my earlier post, namely:
> Obviously I think Stallman's more capable than you do :D
Which to me seems applicable to my more recent post also. If that's the one you meant too, then I'm not sure I understand this response.
Ok jdixion, I think this is the comment :).
In which case, I'm not differentiating between having and seeking. i.e. He has a bunch, and continues to seek more...
Well, as I noted in the last W3F fiasco, I tend to give people the benefit of a doubt. Possibly too much so in some cases. You may be correct and this may be one of them.
I don't think I've seen any party put up a candidate worthy of the Presidency in the last 20-30 years. They must kill anyone like that off before they get within shouting distance ;-)
So, exactly where did that driver run?
I'll think a lot more of your argument if you can answer a simple question for me:
On which piece of hardware did that driver run?
You say "the real issue is whether the GPL, or any other license can effectively tackle the challenge of tivoization"
I think you also have to look at whether we even 'should' tackle the challenge of tivoization, at least via a software license.
Yes, I think that is precisely the question.
nice work, editerdood
Quite. :)
Even for people who don't understand what RMS represents, the attacks against him should speak volumes. Someone is worried about what he stands for and what he is doing, and is trying very hard to discredit and marginalize RMS and the FSF. Let's see now, who could that be? Hint: follow the money, then follow the dirty tricks trails.
Methinks your response is beneath you, little birdie. You have already proven that you are capable of excellent insight and expression, so I refuse to let you get away with bumper sticker misdirection here. The loudest squawks in the current discussion are not coming from Microsoft's Redmond Rodents or Larry Ellison's evil elves. They're coming from people who have created he most significant software ever released under the GPL.
Like it or not, there s some there there.
Y'know, from the perspective of your comment, I might reasonably wonder who is stuffing your pockets. After all, your position suggests that there is no reasonable basis for opposing the RMS position. That would be a mindless fangirl stance. You are not a mindless fangirl,so, perhaps we should follow the money...or the horses...or the oats...or maybe the discount truck repairs or something.
Damned right. Personally I believe that he's now doing more harm than good for Linux.
> follow the money
Lol, as dino says, the main criticism is coming from within the Linux community, and, I only 'wish' I could get money for trashing RMS :D
Talk about FUD...
The anti-RMS campaign has been going on for some time via the usual channels- the tech "press" . The same old gullible/ignorant/careless/analysts/outright shills who print anything except quality, well-researched articles. The Dan Lyons piece is the most obvious- it's so shrill it's hard to imagine anyone taking it seriously. Maybe you're not reading CNET/ZDNet, Forbes, the Register, LinuxInsider, random blogs which are suddenly elevated to the level of CNET/ZDNet, etc... But I do, and they print a lot of anti-RMS junk. Which is no surprise, since they're largely junk anyway.
Exactly.
That's why I chide you for trying to misdirect the audience away from an actual dispute.
What's the old line? Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everybody isn't out to get you?
Well, just because everybody's out to get RMS doesn't mean he's right.
Precisely. Which is why I keep ranting here about the stupid criticisms that address everything except his views and deeds.
"That's why I chide you for trying to misdirect the audience away from an actual dispute."
Me?? Get a grip. I'm not passing off Dan Lyons-style tripe as debate here.
I had to go back and check the article link. Unless I'm mistaken, the Rev and Dan Lyons are not the same person. It's the Rev's article we're commenting on, right?
I think it's clear that tuxchick is referring to articles in the tech press by such as Lyons and his ilk, not those who are disagreeing in this forum.
Kind of clear.
Small error in the last paragraph - users vs. developers license
Actually, it's the developer/programmer who decides on which license to use. The user has no choice in what license the developer chooses to use for his/her creative work.
That's how I see it, anyway.
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Absolutely, but that seems to be the way you view it ;-)
> favourite troll
Well, I pretty much discount you too.