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Debian Etch: So Easy A Newbie Can Do It
A Little BackgroundLet's backtrack a couple of years, when I laughed my way through an article in one of the Linux mags, where the author suggested he would do a fresh install of Debian, and related that to the Lord of the Rings characters, who, having achieved their goals, were taken off into some sort of neverland. Inspired, I tried out Woody, only to find myself lost in Aptitude Hell. Back to SUSE, with my tail between my legs. Now, fast forward to the present, where Debian and I both have come a long way. Installing Debian EtchThe Debian installer starts off with the language settings, moves to formatting the hard drive, with a few sensible default options, and then let's you set your time zone, root and initial user. Next comes the package selection. Although the installer avoids Aptitude Hell, and offers a simple choice of environments, there is no indication for new users as to which graphical environment they will get, nor any way to change the default option. It's either GNOME or nothing. I understand the hard feelings toward KDE, but that is - or should be - history now. SUSE gives a choice, as do some other general-purpose distros. New users will have to figure out how to get KDE (assuming they even know that is), never mind Enlightenment or XFce. I realize it's simple, but offering users a choice during the installation is a good thing. After all, isn't choice part of the GNU/Linux mantra? DebCentral has a nice tutorial on avoiding GNOME during the install phase, for those who need it. At any rate, once you choose the environments to install, Debian does its thing, and then you reboot into your shiny new Debian GNU/Linux system. Let me say this, I've installed Debian on 3 boxes, plus my laptop. I've got a server, one with KDE, and the others have GNOME. Our boxes are all donated machines clocking in at a whopping 450MHz and approximately 192MB RAM. Debian blazes on these boxes. Seriously, these boxes probably fly faster than they did with SUSE Linux 8.0 Pro on them. Running DebianMy laptop's wi-fi broke when I upgraded it from Ubuntu Hoary to Dapper. I'm sure I could have kept Ubuntu and fixed it, but with the tutorial for FWCutter handy, and being in the OS-installation mood, I just went with it. Wi-fi works great at home, had problems at work, but I'll get that worked out, I'm sure. I didn't bother to time things, but Debian seems like it runs faster than Ubuntu, and definitely faster than SUSE. I decided in the end to follow the DebCentral tutorial for installing KDE from a standard shell environment on the one workstation. Even KDE 3.5.5 runs fast. OpenOffice.org 2.0.4 loads in about 15 seconds - not bad for a 450MHz box. And you know what? Even though Debian doesn't have a centralized system management app, like Yast, I'm not finding it very difficult to adjust to With GNOME and KDE both running fast, My two gripes are that I did not manage to play an Ogg-Vorbis file, and could not get my Kodak CX6200 digital camera working. Although with SUSE and Ubuntu, these two items 'just worked', it doesn't seem to be the case with Debian Etch. I don't want non-libre codecs or drivers, so I really don't care if those work or not. I haven't had a chance to test my Handsrping Visor yet, either. Let's face it, though. Most people who are going to choose the desktop environment during a net install will expect their devices and at least the libre multi-media codecs to 'just work'. New Convert?You know, I think I can get used to running Debian GNU/Linux. In fact, these boxes now running it used to run SUSE and Ubuntu primarily. Now it's Debian and Ichthux. I've got to test out this PCLinuxOS thing yet, but so far, I can see Debian Etch becoming my primary OS for the foreseeable future. If I sound a bit like a new Debian convert, I won't deny it. Still, it takes a little time to get used to a new distro, and we'll see how this plays out. If you have tried out Debian Etch, let me know what you like and/or dislike about it. |
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Comments (89)
I'll be impressed when...
> You have to tweak them to suit.
There is something unnatural about a user who doesn't tweak and personalize their desktop, no matter how it starts out ;-)
There is something unnatural about a user who doesn't tweak and personalize their desktop, no matter how it starts out ;-)
The one thing it's missing is to install Xen (with standard bridging that doesn't cut dom0 off). Just like LVM, it's one of those things you should setup anyway even if you aren't using it, as you will likely eventually want to, and you want that moment to be painless. For server installs, it's really a must now.
> The one thing it's missing is to install Xen
Well, perhaps that should be under the server options, but like LVM, not everyone will want or use it.
Well, perhaps that should be under the server options, but like LVM, not everyone will want or use it.
Ye gods, it's annoying enough that modern distros insist on installing LVM and RAID. Don't want them on most of my systems. Same goes for Xen and SELinux. I don't like the trend towards enabling Avahi on everything either. Anyone who wants them knows how to get them. Making them defaults is dumb.
@ tc > Dang, I slay me.
Please do! That way the rest of us won't have to . . . . . (Ducks and runs for cover) :-)
I do agree with tc though about installing and enabling everytthing -- including the kitchen sink. I prefer a minimalist approach where I can add stuff if I find a need for it. Apparently, bloat isn't only a windows problem,
Don K.
Please do! That way the rest of us won't have to . . . . . (Ducks and runs for cover) :-)
I do agree with tc though about installing and enabling everytthing -- including the kitchen sink. I prefer a minimalist approach where I can add stuff if I find a need for it. Apparently, bloat isn't only a windows problem,
Don K.
Quoting: Debian is still the only Linux that you can upgrade indefinitely without ever doing a reinstallation.
Have to nitpick, sorry. Arch Linux never needs a reinstallation either.
"but like LVM, not everyone will want or use it."
LVM doesn't harm you to have it, and if you don't have it and find a need for it later, you're basically screwed if you didn't set it up in the beginning.
Things like that should be the defaults. As such, Debian's partitioner now makes it essentially the easiest choice.
LVM doesn't harm you to have it, and if you don't have it and find a need for it later, you're basically screwed if you didn't set it up in the beginning.
Things like that should be the defaults. As such, Debian's partitioner now makes it essentially the easiest choice.
> LVM doesn't harm you to have it, and if you don't have it and find a need for it later, you're basically screwed if you didn't set it up in the beginning.
I guess you'd remember that the next time round :D
Seriously, while I can see advantages with Business, I've yet to see any desktop user who needs or wants it. Sorry, but it's yet another app that should remain optional.
I guess you'd remember that the next time round :D
Seriously, while I can see advantages with Business, I've yet to see any desktop user who needs or wants it. Sorry, but it's yet another app that should remain optional.
Not true. EVMS, which is a more advanced incarnation of LVM, can be added to any system after installation. And removed if you change your mind.
It's weird to advocate larding systems with stuff they don't need. It's just a source of trouble- updates take longer, and you have more potential security holes and dependency problems. Anyway the #1 reason to not be forced to have a bunch of stuff you don't want is because you don't want it.
dek, I challenge you and scrawler to a duel. I figure a ten-year Arch and Debian test ought to settle it definitively. As for you, o dek, I fling sharpened Vista CDs at you. Frisbees of death!
It's weird to advocate larding systems with stuff they don't need. It's just a source of trouble- updates take longer, and you have more potential security holes and dependency problems. Anyway the #1 reason to not be forced to have a bunch of stuff you don't want is because you don't want it.
dek, I challenge you and scrawler to a duel. I figure a ten-year Arch and Debian test ought to settle it definitively. As for you, o dek, I fling sharpened Vista CDs at you. Frisbees of death!
> Anyway the #1 reason to not be forced to have a bunch of stuff you don't want is because you don't want it.
I'll second that one!
I'll second that one!
TC, are you, per chance, a Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan? I mean, all this talk about slaying yourself and others... It just sounds like you've been swimming in Buffy's holy water hole. And sharpened Vista CD's? C'mon! Take that vista out, and put it on a box. That'll teach 'em. Of course, their boxes might get owned, and then you'd feel guilty... aw never mind.
"Not true. EVMS, which is a more advanced incarnation of LVM, can be added to any system after installation. And removed if you change your mind."
EVMS was somewhat on the dead side last I checked.
"It's weird to advocate larding systems with stuff they don't need."
The cost is very close to zero with LVM as it's already in your kernel and has a minimal footprint. It'd kinda be like saying Debian is lard on Slackware, as you don't need real package management.
Since this is a Debian thread and not a Slackware thread, I don't see why anyone would want fewer features in return for no benefit. :)
EVMS was somewhat on the dead side last I checked.
"It's weird to advocate larding systems with stuff they don't need."
The cost is very close to zero with LVM as it's already in your kernel and has a minimal footprint. It'd kinda be like saying Debian is lard on Slackware, as you don't need real package management.
Since this is a Debian thread and not a Slackware thread, I don't see why anyone would want fewer features in return for no benefit. :)
> It'd kinda be like saying Debian is lard on Slackware, as you don't need real package management.
Stating the obvious will get you nowhere. :) OK, now it's a Slackware thread too.
> ...are you, per chance, a Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan?
Isn't everyone?
Stating the obvious will get you nowhere. :) OK, now it's a Slackware thread too.
> ...are you, per chance, a Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan?
Isn't everyone?
>dek, I challenge you and scrawler to a duel. I figure a ten-year Arch and Debian test ought to settle it definitively
I'm reaching that goal, i think i've installed Slink on 1999, running Sid from basically day one, nVidia TNT wasn't supported by the stable XFree86, and updating daily. I could say i've only seen the Slink installer... (=
I'm reaching that goal, i think i've installed Slink on 1999, running Sid from basically day one, nVidia TNT wasn't supported by the stable XFree86, and updating daily. I could say i've only seen the Slink installer... (=
Centralized Package Management
While I prefer 'apt-get install' or 'aptitude install' (aptitude see's recommended packages as dependancies and installs them for you). There is a GUI package manager for Debian.
synaptic
as with most debian based distros, as they say its just an apt-get away.
Nice and versatile, search function, and it will allow you to add in repositories like the always needed http://www.debian-multimedia.org, formerly marillats.
Nice to have another convert, and remember Ubuntu is swahili for "Cant configure Debian" (joking). I have used Ubuntu, but Debian for me is more versatile as I dont really need someone else's idea of what I should have and how it should be preconfigured for me.
synaptic
as with most debian based distros, as they say its just an apt-get away.
Nice and versatile, search function, and it will allow you to add in repositories like the always needed http://www.debian-multimedia.org, formerly marillats.
Nice to have another convert, and remember Ubuntu is swahili for "Cant configure Debian" (joking). I have used Ubuntu, but Debian for me is more versatile as I dont really need someone else's idea of what I should have and how it should be preconfigured for me.
synaptic is included in the default Debian desktop install.
As far as apt goes, I can handle the command-line or Synaptic - I'm not picky with that. If you're referring to my comment on centralized system management, though, Yast does so much more than just packages. It's the closest equivalent I've seen to the Windows management console. Well, other than Webmin.
This is one of my buntu gripes. What the heck is the point of Adept? It's redundant and not easier to use than Synaptic. In fact it's a big fat PITA, because depending on which icon you click to open it, it presents a different interface. It is very non-obvious how to get to the window that you want. I keep messing with it just to stay up to date, and I always end up cussing and wishing it would go away.
I was refering to your package manager comment, it sounded as if you hadnt run across it. Sorry for that *sheepish grin*
And Jimf hit the nail on the head, it does come with the default installation. The problem being I cant remember the last time I did a default installation. I tend to forget what is and isnt included, just the steps I need to follow after I tell it I dont want to use any mirrors so I can break out of the automagic install. I personally dont like Gnome or KDE and dont use them, so I see no reason for either of them to be wasting HD space.
tuxchick nailed it, so easy a pig can do it.
And Jimf hit the nail on the head, it does come with the default installation. The problem being I cant remember the last time I did a default installation. I tend to forget what is and isnt included, just the steps I need to follow after I tell it I dont want to use any mirrors so I can break out of the automagic install. I personally dont like Gnome or KDE and dont use them, so I see no reason for either of them to be wasting HD space.
tuxchick nailed it, so easy a pig can do it.
> Yast does so much more than just packages
Yeah, but synaptic does 'just packages' much better. As for the rest, I supose it depends on how you prefer to manage.
Yeah, but synaptic does 'just packages' much better. As for the rest, I supose it depends on how you prefer to manage.
Quoting:This is one of my buntu gripes. What the heck is the point of Adept?I was puzzled about it myself but gave them the benefit of the doubts. I thought they might have something cooking for the future.
But I do give them credit for doing a great job on the automatic notification for upgrades. Once I thought Suse had the best upgrade/update mechinism, K/Ubuntu surpassed it. Kubuntu is improving at an astonishing rate and could very well be the dominant distro. I wonder if this is going to be dangerous.
> But I do give them credit for doing a great job on the automatic notification for upgrades.
Talk about duplication of function... Synaptic gives you much better information.
Talk about duplication of function... Synaptic gives you much better information.
Quoting:Synaptic gives you much better information.I didn't know Synaptic had AUTOMATED NOTIFICATION icon in the panel. Does it?
I said 'better' information.
Lol, you really need (or want) an 'automated' process.
Lol, you really need (or want) an 'automated' process.
The update notifications are nice. Do they need all the baggage of Adept? Seems like a separate mechanism to me, not something that needs a whole new package manager.
> Ubuntu is swahili for "Cant configure Debian" (joking).
I heard it was "I'm too stupid to use Slackware". :) Though since Ubuntu is a Debian derivative, the Debian quote seems more appropriate.
I heard it was "I'm too stupid to use Slackware". :) Though since Ubuntu is a Debian derivative, the Debian quote seems more appropriate.
Quoting:Lol, you really need (or want) an 'automated' process.
Me need? No, I don't. Want? Of course, why not? I am talking about user friendliness. Like TC said, it is nice to have as a reminder, especially for noobies.
>Yeah, but synaptic does 'just packages' much better. As for the rest, I supose it depends on how you prefer to manage.
Yast let's you manage your hardware, networking (NFS, NIS, LDAP clients) and more, all from a single GUI interface for all of it. I actually like Yast, despite its well-known slow-ness. I mean, KDE and GNOME both seem to have similar tools, but I was used to Yast. I'm flexible, but Debian lacks a unified management tool.
Yast let's you manage your hardware, networking (NFS, NIS, LDAP clients) and more, all from a single GUI interface for all of it. I actually like Yast, despite its well-known slow-ness. I mean, KDE and GNOME both seem to have similar tools, but I was used to Yast. I'm flexible, but Debian lacks a unified management tool.
> I actually like Yast...
Well, the project is dead at the moment, but:
http://yast4debian.alioth.debian.org/
Well, the project is dead at the moment, but:
http://yast4debian.alioth.debian.org/
> Debian lacks a unified management tool.
Well, I use KDE, which covers all those other functions. In fact they also have kpackage (although that's next to useless). And as you say, Gnome has similar tools...
I'm not sure that I need or want a specifically 'Debian' unified management tool, as it would involve a lot of unnecessary duplication.
I suppose that it's somewhat a matter of taste, but I always found that yast, and that one in mandrake were a little too windowish, and masked the process setup just a little too well.
Well, I use KDE, which covers all those other functions. In fact they also have kpackage (although that's next to useless). And as you say, Gnome has similar tools...
I'm not sure that I need or want a specifically 'Debian' unified management tool, as it would involve a lot of unnecessary duplication.
I suppose that it's somewhat a matter of taste, but I always found that yast, and that one in mandrake were a little too windowish, and masked the process setup just a little too well.
> I didn't know Synaptic had AUTOMATED NOTIFICATION icon in the panel. Does it?
No, it does not, but you can use update-notifier and update-manager. Update-notifier is a daemon which notifies about package updates. If there is updates available update-notifier will show an icon in the desktop panels notification area. update-notifier works with GNOME, KDE, XFCE and other desktops which implement FreeDesktop notification area spesification.
If you click that icon on panel, update-manager will be started. Update-manager is a GNOME application that manages software updates. You can check and install updates with it easily.
Update-notifier and update-manager are part of the Debian Etch default gnome desktop. Youi can also intall those ehis way:
# apt-get install update-notifier
That command will install both update-notifier and update-manager
No, it does not, but you can use update-notifier and update-manager. Update-notifier is a daemon which notifies about package updates. If there is updates available update-notifier will show an icon in the desktop panels notification area. update-notifier works with GNOME, KDE, XFCE and other desktops which implement FreeDesktop notification area spesification.
If you click that icon on panel, update-manager will be started. Update-manager is a GNOME application that manages software updates. You can check and install updates with it easily.
Update-notifier and update-manager are part of the Debian Etch default gnome desktop. Youi can also intall those ehis way:
# apt-get install update-notifier
That command will install both update-notifier and update-manager
jdixon: That link is pretty cool. I like the screenshots. Still, I can manage the .conf files just as well. As I said (here or somewhere), I'm flexible. :-)
Quoting:Update-manager is a GNOME application ... Update-notifier and update-manager are part of the Debian Etch default gnome desktop.miksuh2:
Thanks for the info.. I looked at GNOME once but never used it. With KDE around and constantly improving, I don't think I will ever use GNOME unless I have to. I guess it is not to my taste.
Attaching Kodak Cameras to Etch
Kodak cameras are especially troublesome. I have a Z612, so I know.
The fix is simple if you are willing to spend $20.00.
Get yourself a Sandisk 5-in-One reader. It requires no drivers beyond usb mass-storage.
You insert your memory card, and it acts like a mini drive.
Dougrrr
The fix is simple if you are willing to spend $20.00.
Get yourself a Sandisk 5-in-One reader. It requires no drivers beyond usb mass-storage.
You insert your memory card, and it acts like a mini drive.
Dougrrr
It works out of the box with SUSE & Ubuntu - don't know why they would be so special.
If it works in Ubuntu, it should work in Debian testing.
First make sure you are member of camera group, if you are not add user to it.
eg.
# groups foobar # adduser foobar camera
Try to attach camera again.
eg.
# groups foobar # adduser foobar camera
Try to attach camera again.
xfce
> New users will have to figure out how to get KDE (assuming they even know that is), never mind Enlightenment or XFce. I realize it's simple, but offering users a choice during the installation is a good thing.
It's easy to add it after the fact, once you have already installed gnome and the full list of bloated applications (granted, still better than many distributions).
What I would like is to install xfce only, and just the packages I need. Presumably that can be done. I've read tutorials on the web, but they are Debian tutorials and thus not worth very much. If there were an option at install or even an Ubuntu-style tutorial for how to do a custom install I would be happy.
If I'm wrong in my comments, by all means, point me in the right direction to a method that doesn't require installation without a GUI and the manipulation of configuration files.
It's easy to add it after the fact, once you have already installed gnome and the full list of bloated applications (granted, still better than many distributions).
What I would like is to install xfce only, and just the packages I need. Presumably that can be done. I've read tutorials on the web, but they are Debian tutorials and thus not worth very much. If there were an option at install or even an Ubuntu-style tutorial for how to do a custom install I would be happy.
If I'm wrong in my comments, by all means, point me in the right direction to a method that doesn't require installation without a GUI and the manipulation of configuration files.
For getting KDE instead of gnome, I need only install the base package, then do:
apt-get install kde
apt-get install kdm
apt-get install synaptic
I assume that you need only substitute xfce for kde to get that desktop
apt-get install kde
apt-get install kdm
apt-get install synaptic
I assume that you need only substitute xfce for kde to get that desktop
Quoting:What I would like is to install xfce only, and just the packages I need. Presumably that can be done. I've read tutorials on the web, but they are Debian tutorials and thus not worth very much. If there were an option at install or even an Ubuntu-style tutorial for how to do a custom install I would be happy.
Is this the kind of thing you're looking for?
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=30896
Ok, so you really need x-window-system-core, and xfce4...
I wasn't aware that xfxe had it's own x manager.
I wasn't aware that xfxe had it's own x manager.
I was just arguing that users should be given the option of which environment they want during the install, so they don't have to go back and do it later. Why not give them the option during installation? I guess I should have thought to write it that way in my review.
Thanks for the info.
This is a lot simpler than what's out there, jimf. I will try it when I get some time. The problem I've always had is that I have no clue what packages need to be installed, so hopefully this will do it.
SFN: I guess I didn't think to actually look on an Ubuntu forum for an Ubuntu-style tutorial. My experience is that Ubuntu is really slow relative to Debian (I do scientific programming, stuff like Matlab but with open source tools, for a living, so speed is far more important than polish). Gentoo would probably be best, but I have no technical skills. I will try these instructions with Debian Etch.
This brings me back to the point in the article: why can't this be handled by the Debian installer itself? It doesn't seem very hard.
This is a lot simpler than what's out there, jimf. I will try it when I get some time. The problem I've always had is that I have no clue what packages need to be installed, so hopefully this will do it.
SFN: I guess I didn't think to actually look on an Ubuntu forum for an Ubuntu-style tutorial. My experience is that Ubuntu is really slow relative to Debian (I do scientific programming, stuff like Matlab but with open source tools, for a living, so speed is far more important than polish). Gentoo would probably be best, but I have no technical skills. I will try these instructions with Debian Etch.
This brings me back to the point in the article: why can't this be handled by the Debian installer itself? It doesn't seem very hard.
For Debian Etch its really really simple.
Using the net install CD
1. Normal install until it asks you if you want network mirrors: Answer no. 2. Finish install and reboot 3. login, go root, nano /etc/apt/sources.list . ADD . deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian etch main contrib . deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian etch main contrib (note the security repo's will already be in your sources.list) 4. apt-get update 5. apt-get install xorg xserver-xorg-core xfce4 6. optional apt-get install (insert favorite login manager gdm,kdm,xdm ...)
There you have it. Debian Etch with xfce installed and without gnome or KDE. Apt may spit a few errors about unsigned repositories since we didnt import a key. You also wont have any applications installed either. You'll probably want to add in your web browser, irc client, open office, or other favorite applications.
Also note that this isnt a great way to do things for a laptop install as laptops use frequency scaling and none of that is in place with this method so laptops will run at the absolute slowest setting the CPU can manage and wont scale upwards.
Using the net install CD
1. Normal install until it asks you if you want network mirrors: Answer no. 2. Finish install and reboot 3. login, go root, nano /etc/apt/sources.list . ADD . deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian etch main contrib . deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian etch main contrib (note the security repo's will already be in your sources.list) 4. apt-get update 5. apt-get install xorg xserver-xorg-core xfce4 6. optional apt-get install (insert favorite login manager gdm,kdm,xdm ...)
There you have it. Debian Etch with xfce installed and without gnome or KDE. Apt may spit a few errors about unsigned repositories since we didnt import a key. You also wont have any applications installed either. You'll probably want to add in your web browser, irc client, open office, or other favorite applications.
Also note that this isnt a great way to do things for a laptop install as laptops use frequency scaling and none of that is in place with this method so laptops will run at the absolute slowest setting the CPU can manage and wont scale upwards.
> Why not give them the option during installation?
Absolutely. Ideally one should have a KDE, or Gnome, or ??? Option. Most of the people I know run KDE rather than Gnome, and, we've been saying that for some time (years). Actually the desktop option did include both Gnome plus KDE at one time. I guess it was too much trouble to maintain?
It's great that the Debian installer is now one of the better ones, and, says a lot about how far Linux has progressed, but, you also have to remember that Debian was never intended to be a noob Distro. It is assumed that people who want to install something else will have the ability to just do that.
Absolutely. Ideally one should have a KDE, or Gnome, or ??? Option. Most of the people I know run KDE rather than Gnome, and, we've been saying that for some time (years). Actually the desktop option did include both Gnome plus KDE at one time. I guess it was too much trouble to maintain?
It's great that the Debian installer is now one of the better ones, and, says a lot about how far Linux has progressed, but, you also have to remember that Debian was never intended to be a noob Distro. It is assumed that people who want to install something else will have the ability to just do that.
I agree that it should be an option. Being that I dont use either Gnome or KDE by choice. I'm also not a big fan of having scads of applications that I'll probably never use being included in the installation.
The problem lies in what is the right way. As there isnt a right way for everyone then perhaps its just as well to have some way and then people can modify to taste. There are a lot of things that are personal preferance (beat that redmond) in how things should look, feel, and run that we can tweak to our hearts content. Who is right? I am if you ask me but I'll be the first to admit my way of doing things and setting up my systems is far from what the average joe computer user would be comfortable with.
No desktop icons, no start menus or drop down bars, and you can left click all day and nothing will happen. According to me thats the exact right way and anything else is a crutch. According to most people I talk to ... I'v gone to far to the geek side.
So what is the "right" desktop? Without a choice during the install it will always be the wrong one for some people.
The problem lies in what is the right way. As there isnt a right way for everyone then perhaps its just as well to have some way and then people can modify to taste. There are a lot of things that are personal preferance (beat that redmond) in how things should look, feel, and run that we can tweak to our hearts content. Who is right? I am if you ask me but I'll be the first to admit my way of doing things and setting up my systems is far from what the average joe computer user would be comfortable with.
No desktop icons, no start menus or drop down bars, and you can left click all day and nothing will happen. According to me thats the exact right way and anything else is a crutch. According to most people I talk to ... I'v gone to far to the geek side.
So what is the "right" desktop? Without a choice during the install it will always be the wrong one for some people.
> Who is right? I am if you ask me but I'll be the first to admit my way of doing things and setting up my systems is far from what the average joe computer user would be comfortable with.
Entirely the norm for most of us. I know that my KDE Desktop would give the 'average' user more than a few problems. Most who see it are either asking 'what is that' or, 'how the heck did you do that' :D
> So what is the "right" desktop?
I think that it's only right that there be a 'default' even if I don't personally agree with it, but, for the more experienced user, it makes little difference.
Entirely the norm for most of us. I know that my KDE Desktop would give the 'average' user more than a few problems. Most who see it are either asking 'what is that' or, 'how the heck did you do that' :D
> So what is the "right" desktop?
I think that it's only right that there be a 'default' even if I don't personally agree with it, but, for the more experienced user, it makes little difference.
Guess what: IT WORKED!!!
I'm writing this from Firefox on my new Debian Etch install. In between diaper changes and feedings, I followed azerthoth's instructions to install it in VMWare. Worked like a charm. Maybe there aren't many people interested in this, but these instructions should be posted on the Debian website for people with old machines or who are bloat-averse.
A couple tweaks to add to the instructions: (i) Step 5 should say xfce4 instead of xfce. xfce didn't work but I knew it should be xfce4 from the previous six dozen times I've tried this. (ii) It is best to remove the CD from the repository list in Synaptic unless you actually want to use the CD. That's not the best way to get the most up-to-date software.
It is blazing fast even in VMWare. I don't know if I'm crazy, maybe it violates a fundamental law or something, but it seems Etch running in VMWare on Windows XP is faster than Windows XP.
Thanks for the help. I might have found a new production OS. This is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Debian Etch with XFCE: so easy a caveman can do it.
I'm writing this from Firefox on my new Debian Etch install. In between diaper changes and feedings, I followed azerthoth's instructions to install it in VMWare. Worked like a charm. Maybe there aren't many people interested in this, but these instructions should be posted on the Debian website for people with old machines or who are bloat-averse.
A couple tweaks to add to the instructions: (i) Step 5 should say xfce4 instead of xfce. xfce didn't work but I knew it should be xfce4 from the previous six dozen times I've tried this. (ii) It is best to remove the CD from the repository list in Synaptic unless you actually want to use the CD. That's not the best way to get the most up-to-date software.
It is blazing fast even in VMWare. I don't know if I'm crazy, maybe it violates a fundamental law or something, but it seems Etch running in VMWare on Windows XP is faster than Windows XP.
Thanks for the help. I might have found a new production OS. This is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Debian Etch with XFCE: so easy a caveman can do it.
Welcome to Debian bigg :D
Thanks bigg I fixed that missing 4.
Ah, yes. The CD. You do need to comment out that line. That one stumped me for about 5 minutes, til I thought about it. Yeah, I'm slow.
Quoting:Etch running in VMWare on Windows XP is faster than Windows XP.
Not only in that way, Windows XP under VMWare running in Linux is fast too (I use Gentoo with only Windowmaker, Windowmaker is like XFCE but even 'less' bloated, if possible at all). Maybe, if you like Debian, you could try to turn things around, and run VMWare from Debian, and run WinXP in VMWare in turn.
I know, a lot of people may flame me (LXer editor) for using Windows XP, but I merely installed VMWare with WinXP on it to test playing some game over our wireless connection, which didn't work that well under wine, and neither under Cedega. However, it didn't work under VMWare as well. Sadly, a lot of games don't work under wine, and a lot of them neither under Cedega. For the rest, all works fine in WindowsXP under VMware in Linux: Sound, graphics, Firefox, all as it should. VMPlayer is gratis (though an EULA applies, so no free software, that's why I use 'gratis') now.
BTW: Red Alert 2 is also quicker under Wine than in WindowsXP (OK, my friend has a bloated XP box), but our wireless connection seems to be to slow to use it for WLAN-gaming. Nonetheless, we managed to play Red Alert over the legacy (not used anymore) IPX protocol, between a Windows XP box and my Gentoo box, which was pretty surprising.
Quoting: bigg: It is blazing fast even in VMWare. I don't know if I'm crazy, maybe it violates a fundamental law or something, but it seems Etch running in VMWare on Windows XP is faster than Windows XP.So, what is keeping you from taking the plunge? Imagine how fast etch would be on the bare metal. Think about it, linux as host, with an expee vmware guest for the occasional pesky legacy program makes a lot of sense, no?
It will at some point end up on my office computer. Unfortunately at home, due to our new baby, I only have access to my wife's Windows computer. She uses PCLinux under VMWare because she doesn't trust her computer for things requiring security, but she won't let me install it. I can't even make a dual boot system because she doesn't trust it. It's either a live cd or vmware, but I can't mess with the Windows boot process. So I use VMWare.
Debian-multimedia.org
Most of the Debian desktop users probably want to activate debian-multimedia.org repository. If you want to use it, add repository to your /etc/apt/sources.list, Instructions are here:
http://www.debian-multimedia.org
Make sure you add Etch repository:
Then you must download debian-multimedia.org repository key and add it to APT keyring. If you don't do that APT will complain about missing public key. Here is what you need to do:
$ gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net --recv-keys 1F41B907 $ gpg --armor --export 1F41B907 > debian-multimedia.key $ su -c "apt-key add debian-multimedia.key"
or if you use sudo:
$ gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net --recv-keys 1F41B907 $ gpg --armor --export 1F41B907 | sudo apt-key add -
Next run command: # apt-get update
Now you should be able to install stuff from the debian-multimedia.org repository.
http://www.debian-multimedia.org
Make sure you add Etch repository:
Then you must download debian-multimedia.org repository key and add it to APT keyring. If you don't do that APT will complain about missing public key. Here is what you need to do:
$ gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net --recv-keys 1F41B907 $ gpg --armor --export 1F41B907 > debian-multimedia.key $ su -c "apt-key add debian-multimedia.key"
or if you use sudo:
$ gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net --recv-keys 1F41B907 $ gpg --armor --export 1F41B907 | sudo apt-key add -
Next run command: # apt-get update
Now you should be able to install stuff from the debian-multimedia.org repository.
non-free and contrib repositories
If you want to activate Debian Etch non-free and contrib repositories change your /etc/apt/sources.list so that it copntains something like this:
deb http: //ftp.fi.debian.org/debian/ etch main non-free contrib deb-src http: //ftp.fi.debian.org/debian/ etch main non-free contrib deb http: //security.debian.org/ etch/updates main non-free contrib deb-src http: //security.debian.org/ etch/updates main non-free contrib
What matters here is "non-free contrib" at the end of lines. Add it to end of your repositopry lines.
(note: In that example I had to modify urls so that there is space between http: and //.)
deb http: //ftp.fi.debian.org/debian/ etch main non-free contrib deb-src http: //ftp.fi.debian.org/debian/ etch main non-free contrib deb http: //security.debian.org/ etch/updates main non-free contrib deb-src http: //security.debian.org/ etch/updates main non-free contrib
What matters here is "non-free contrib" at the end of lines. Add it to end of your repositopry lines.
(note: In that example I had to modify urls so that there is space between http: and //.)
gpg keys can be a real pita. To pick up the latest for the Debian repos, try running this in a root terminal:
wget http: //ftp-master.debian.org/ziyi_key_2006.asc -O - | apt-key add -
wget http: //ftp-master.debian.org/ziyi_key_2006.asc -O - | apt-key add -
Isn't debian-archive-keyring package for that? I think you should not need to download those keys separately.
miksuh2,
the line I gave should download and set up all of the official repos.
the line I gave should download and set up all of the official repos.
A great review of Debian Etch
Enjoyed the review very much . A couple of questions....
Did you do the net install or download all the ISOs and burn them on to CDs before starting the installation? If a net install, how much time did it take to finish installation. Just curious.
And did the Gnome desktop work flawlessly ? In the past I have installed Debian etch and even though I found all the things to work to my satisfaction, The Gnome Application menu was flickering continuously when I clicked on the menu.
I hope this problem was rectified since then. Either way I look forward to the final release of Debian Etch.
Did you do the net install or download all the ISOs and burn them on to CDs before starting the installation? If a net install, how much time did it take to finish installation. Just curious.
And did the Gnome desktop work flawlessly ? In the past I have installed Debian etch and even though I found all the things to work to my satisfaction, The Gnome Application menu was flickering continuously when I clicked on the menu.
I hope this problem was rectified since then. Either way I look forward to the final release of Debian Etch.
> Did you do the net install or download all the ISOs and burn them on to CDs before starting the installation? If a net install, how much time did it take to finish installation. Just curious.
I've done both, but usually netinstall. That's what Don used. As for time... Do you have broadband? If not, you usually only have to download the first two iso's of the set to do a rather complete install.
I've done both, but usually netinstall. That's what Don used. As for time... Do you have broadband? If not, you usually only have to download the first two iso's of the set to do a rather complete install.
I actually did not track the time this time. jimf is correct, I used the net-install - he's the one that got me started. It didn't need my attention for much though. I haven't noticed any problems with GNOME's (or KDE's) menus.
I'm glad you enjoyed the review!
I'm glad you enjoyed the review!
I heart the net-install. So much faster than downloading a wad of .isos, which get outdated in a hurry anyway. Plus it's easy to set up a local mirror with apt-proxy for multiple local net-installs. This doesn't create a complete mirror, which is like eleventy-nine gigabytes, but it creates a local repo from packages that you download for installation. Very fast, and it updates itself.
While I remember it...
Don said: > I did not manage to play an Ogg-Vorbis file
you need 'liboggflac++2' for Ogg-Vorbis... yes, it is completly free :) I also suggest you install 'sox' for the programs background noise. A glaring ommision imo.
Don said: > I did not manage to play an Ogg-Vorbis file
you need 'liboggflac++2' for Ogg-Vorbis... yes, it is completly free :) I also suggest you install 'sox' for the programs background noise. A glaring ommision imo.
Don left out part of that sentence:
" I did not manage to play an Ogg-Vorbis file on my piano."
Though there are computerized full-sized pianos now which relieve you of the tedium of actually sitting down to press the keys your own self. The very idea is depressing, sheesh. Proof that there is no such thing as fiction:
The Machine Stops, by E.M. Forster http://brighton.ncsa.uiuc.edu/prajlich/forster.html
" I did not manage to play an Ogg-Vorbis file on my piano."
Though there are computerized full-sized pianos now which relieve you of the tedium of actually sitting down to press the keys your own self. The very idea is depressing, sheesh. Proof that there is no such thing as fiction:
The Machine Stops, by E.M. Forster http://brighton.ncsa.uiuc.edu/prajlich/forster.html
> Proof that there is no such thing as fiction:
Or perhaps that fiction is our only reality ;-)
Or perhaps that fiction is our only reality ;-)
Additional installers for KDE and XFCE
>>there is no indication for new users as to which graphical environment they will get, nor any way to change the default option. It's either GNOME or nothing.>>
The weekly builds of Debian-Installer now seem to have two new customized versions of the first installer CD image available -- one for KDE and one for XFCE. So now you can just pick the image of your choice and you should be able to install a fully functional Debian Etch desktop without needing to download anything extra after the installation. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/12/msg000...
The weekly builds of Debian-Installer now seem to have two new customized versions of the first installer CD image available -- one for KDE and one for XFCE. So now you can just pick the image of your choice and you should be able to install a fully functional Debian Etch desktop without needing to download anything extra after the installation. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/12/msg000...
Thanks for this! I wonder if they'll do something similar for the net installer? I mean, make it where you can choose your GUI?
> I wonder if they'll do something similar for the net installer? I mean, make it where you can choose your GUI?
They added these to tasksel so instead of the checkmark GNOME "Desktop" task, there'll be several to choose from this time.
They added these to tasksel so instead of the checkmark GNOME "Desktop" task, there'll be several to choose from this time.
Cool. My NetInstall only showed [ ] Graphical Desktop Environment (no mention of which one. I'm glad to hear they're offering options.
It's only in Sid at the moment I believe, tasksel 2.59 needs migrated.
Aha! You speak with such authority. Are you an official Debianista?
No, just a non-DD Free Software programmer who packages stuff for Debian.
Update: I looked into it and they'll be providing it via aptitude's task list, it'll be a hidden task in tasksel. Just don't select 'Desktop' during install, then select the "KDE desktop environment" task in aptitude.
Update: I looked into it and they'll be providing it via aptitude's task list, it'll be a hidden task in tasksel. Just don't select 'Desktop' during install, then select the "KDE desktop environment" task in aptitude.
Then its nothing new.
aptitide install (kde, kde-core, gnome, gnome-core, fluxbox, xfce4, ect ect ad naseum) has been around for a while.
Either you have to allow the default install fo its thing and add this these in after or you have to break out of the auto installer at the "use network mirrors" question.
aptitide install (kde, kde-core, gnome, gnome-core, fluxbox, xfce4, ect ect ad naseum) has been around for a while.
Either you have to allow the default install fo its thing and add this these in after or you have to break out of the auto installer at the "use network mirrors" question.
It would be easier/nicer for end-users if they simply offered 4 GUI options, as in:
Graphical Environment:
[ ] Enlightenment
[*] GNOME (as Default)
[ ] KDE
[ ] XFce
Then continue with the various server options.
Then continue with the various server options.
Don,
I agree, and, that's been what most people I know would prefer. You could also do whatever multiple choices you want.
I agree, and, that's been what most people I know would prefer. You could also do whatever multiple choices you want.
> aptitide install (kde, kde-core, gnome, gnome-core, fluxbox, xfce4, ect ect ad naseum) has been around for a while.
There's a substantial difference between meta packages and tasks.
There's a substantial difference between meta packages and tasks.
> It would be easier/nicer for end-users if they simply offered 4 GUI options, as in:
Graphical Environment:
[ ] Enlightenment
[*] GNOME (as Default)
[ ] KDE
[ ] XFce
For this kind of thing, they prefer people use aptitude. There's just no room in tasksel to select /which/ email server for "email server", /which/ database for "database", /which/ web server for "Web server", /which/ DNS server for "DNS server", etc.. They pick sensible defaults if you let them, otherwise they let you be specific later.
For this kind of thing, they prefer people use aptitude. There's just no room in tasksel to select /which/ email server for "email server", /which/ database for "database", /which/ web server for "Web server", /which/ DNS server for "DNS server", etc.. They pick sensible defaults if you let them, otherwise they let you be specific later.
I'm only suggesting it for the GUIs, not the rest of the system.
> For this kind of thing, they prefer people use aptitude.
You say 'they', but I'm seeing an awful of of Debian users who want this kind of choice (specifically) for a GUI in the installer. I could also say some really negative things about the usability of aptitude, but, I'll save that for another time.
You say 'they', but I'm seeing an awful of of Debian users who want this kind of choice (specifically) for a GUI in the installer. I could also say some really negative things about the usability of aptitude, but, I'll save that for another time.
Well, there is a difference between aptitude the interface and aptitude command line install. Aptitude on its own and relying on the "interface" is just a fast method to undo all the money you have sunk into rogain.
"aptitude" on command line though is slightly more powerfull than apt-get, especially in the way it resolves dependancies.
"aptitude" on command line though is slightly more powerfull than apt-get, especially in the way it resolves dependancies.
> You say 'they', but I'm seeing an awful of of Debian users who want this kind of choice (specifically) for a GUI in the installer.
The problem is you'll wind up with people that feel as strongly about the choice of (for example) email server, and the question will be "If for the GUI, why not for the email server?" and then there'll be people saying "But we intentionally don't offer a choice here as to not confuse those that don't know the difference, that's what the manual package selection option is for". So, the discussion will wind up on "Why do you want to select something that isn't the default, but refuse to do so?".
Maybe this means the manual package selection option needs to be retooled, reorganized, or better described.
> "aptitude" on command line though is slightly more powerfull than apt-get, especially in the way it resolves dependancies.
Note that in the case with Etch, KDE is a hidden tasksel task you can select with aptitude as well as a metapackage. The task is much more aligned what what people want when they say "I want a KDE desktop" as it installs the KDE metapackage as well as a whole mess of other software that isn't "KDE" proper, but makes for a nice KDE desktop experience. I.e., software "using KDE" rather than "part of KDE".
The problem is you'll wind up with people that feel as strongly about the choice of (for example) email server, and the question will be "If for the GUI, why not for the email server?" and then there'll be people saying "But we intentionally don't offer a choice here as to not confuse those that don't know the difference, that's what the manual package selection option is for". So, the discussion will wind up on "Why do you want to select something that isn't the default, but refuse to do so?".
Maybe this means the manual package selection option needs to be retooled, reorganized, or better described.
> "aptitude" on command line though is slightly more powerfull than apt-get, especially in the way it resolves dependancies.
Note that in the case with Etch, KDE is a hidden tasksel task you can select with aptitude as well as a metapackage. The task is much more aligned what what people want when they say "I want a KDE desktop" as it installs the KDE metapackage as well as a whole mess of other software that isn't "KDE" proper, but makes for a nice KDE desktop experience. I.e., software "using KDE" rather than "part of KDE".
> you'll wind up with people that feel as strongly about the choice of (for example) email server, and the question will be "If for the GUI, why not for the email server?"
A very big difference between an app and a GUI meta package. Also, for desktop users, that meta is arguably the major key to how they use the distro. I'm also assuming that users who just want a mail server have a lot more experience in doing that.
A very big difference between an app and a GUI meta package. Also, for desktop users, that meta is arguably the major key to how they use the distro. I'm also assuming that users who just want a mail server have a lot more experience in doing that.
Just as a reference from this weeks Debian news:
"Etch-CD with KDE as default Desktop. Joey Hess [21]announced that he has created an special [22]etch installation [23]CD image which installs [24]KDE as the default desktop environment. The same is possible with the original CD images when using more than one installation medium or installing using a mirror [25]server. This is because Debian placed the [26]GNOME packages on the first installation medium rather than the KDE ones."
"Etch-CD with KDE as default Desktop. Joey Hess [21]announced that he has created an special [22]etch installation [23]CD image which installs [24]KDE as the default desktop environment. The same is possible with the original CD images when using more than one installation medium or installing using a mirror [25]server. This is because Debian placed the [26]GNOME packages on the first installation medium rather than the KDE ones."
kdm/gdm not working
After installing the etch RC1, I did all these steps...
i) apt-get update ii) apt-get install xorg iii) apt-get install kdm iv) apt-get install kde-core
I rebooted and there the KDE log in screen. Excitedly I entered my username and password but to my dismay only the debian background appeared no icons or menu at all. I did notice that during the initialising of services it kinda of got stuck.
Disappointingly, I apt-get install GDM, hoping that it will solve my gui problem and restarted again. It's still the same.....no icons or menu.
Can someone tell where did I go wrong? Thanks.
i) apt-get update ii) apt-get install xorg iii) apt-get install kdm iv) apt-get install kde-core
I rebooted and there the KDE log in screen. Excitedly I entered my username and password but to my dismay only the debian background appeared no icons or menu at all. I did notice that during the initialising of services it kinda of got stuck.
Disappointingly, I apt-get install GDM, hoping that it will solve my gui problem and restarted again. It's still the same.....no icons or menu.
Can someone tell where did I go wrong? Thanks.
I've not tried to install KDE on Etch RC1, but instead of trying to install it manually in pieces, why not test out the KDE task? You can do this via aptitude - go down to "Tasks", "End-User", and select "KDE desktop environment", and select to install it "+", "g" to prepare, "g" to install.
> After installing the etch RC1, I did all these steps...
Ok, many do it that way, but that's not my recomendation... especially on a first attempt.
> I rebooted and there the KDE log in screen.
So, KDM is working fine. The problem is with KDE.
I would suggest an apt-get install kde, but first remove kde-core since you say their was a glitch the first time. I think it's much easier to remove what you don't need in kde once you get everything up and running.
Oh, and don't forget to get synaptic. You'll be needing that once you get into kde.
Ok, many do it that way, but that's not my recomendation... especially on a first attempt.
> I rebooted and there the KDE log in screen.
So, KDM is working fine. The problem is with KDE.
I would suggest an apt-get install kde, but first remove kde-core since you say their was a glitch the first time. I think it's much easier to remove what you don't need in kde once you get everything up and running.
Oh, and don't forget to get synaptic. You'll be needing that once you get into kde.
Quoting:Excitedly I entered my username and password but to my dismay only the debian background appeared no icons or menu at all.Try this easy to do steps before going through all sorts of install/updates
It looks like you have a problem with KDE init files stored in your home directory under .kde folder. Here is what I would try - Since you have no access to anything yet, right click on the background and select "Run Command" - Enter konsole and click "run" - You will be in your home, rename the .kde directory to something like .kde-old. i.e. (mv .kde .kde-old) - Logout and log back in.
Hope this helps.
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Dang, I slay me.
The Etch installer is very nice. I started futzing with it when it was in its early release stages, and even with all the rough edges it looked good. I think it's the best Linux installer of all.
Gnome and KDE don't come all prettified like they are on the buntus and other distributions. You have to tweak them to suit. But for me it's a small price to pay to get Real Debian with all of its flexibility and upgrade-ability. Debian is still the only Linux that you can upgrade indefinitely without ever doing a reinstallation. Can't do that with RHEL or SUSE, and you sure as heck can't with the buntus. Yeah, I know some folks were able to upgrade from Dapper to Edge. I'll match at least equal numbers who ended up with hosed systems.