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Microsoft teams with Linux distributor Xandros
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Comments (109)
Oh well
25 earlier comments in the full thread.
Also something like a sniper's strategy.
Instead of Microsoft performing a frontal IP Patent assault on the entire FOSS community all at once, it tries to pick off parts of it one by one first, like a sniper does in war, to weaken the foundation.
First a Novell, now a Xandros, tomorrow a Who Knows What?
Throw in some more FUD for good measure, like Brad Smith's claim of 235 patent violations of MS's by OSS.
"Nightmare on Maple Street" Truth stranger than fiction?
"Nightmare on Maple Street" Truth stranger than fiction?
I must add. The "sniper in the community" strategy also provides a terror effect.
Remember that sniper they had in Washington a few years back?
Remember that sniper they had in Washington a few years back?
>Also something like a sniper's strategy.
In terms of strategy, yes, I think so. I do, however, like the "Nightmare on Maple Street" comparison, though, because the essence of that story is that the aliens didn't have to do their own dirty work. All that had to do was rile up the neighbors.
In terms of strategy, yes, I think so. I do, however, like the "Nightmare on Maple Street" comparison, though, because the essence of that story is that the aliens didn't have to do their own dirty work. All that had to do was rile up the neighbors.
>All that had to do was rile up the neighbors.
Very good point. As if we needed any help. Our community really needs to get its act together. As long as we are unable to aggregate into a cohesive unit we will be taken out piece by piece by a company that has lost touch with its roots. A company that no longer plans to create new operating systems, they will simply co-opt an existing one that no one seems to own.
I don't think they will succeed, but that doesn't mean they won't make life miserable for us while they crash and burn. And it doesn't mean they won't take a couple of companies down with them. Are you listening Novell, Xandros?
Very good point. As if we needed any help. Our community really needs to get its act together. As long as we are unable to aggregate into a cohesive unit we will be taken out piece by piece by a company that has lost touch with its roots. A company that no longer plans to create new operating systems, they will simply co-opt an existing one that no one seems to own.
I don't think they will succeed, but that doesn't mean they won't make life miserable for us while they crash and burn. And it doesn't mean they won't take a couple of companies down with them. Are you listening Novell, Xandros?
Quoting:And I will bet you 10 to 1 that Xandros pays a per-copy fee to Microsoft. Just like Novell does.
I was right! From http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=53516&src=sit...
Quoting:Financial details of the partnership weren't disclosed. Typaldos said that Xandros will make royalty payments to Microsoft based on shipping products, but isn't compensating the company for the shared development work.
IMO it is M$ trying to beat the GPLv3 to finalization. Then hoping for the grandfather clause to be in place.
@land0: I doubt it. The grandfather clause starts with the date of the MS-Novell deal, not the date GPLv3 is released. anything after March 28, 2007 (including the MS-Xandros deal) is not grandfathered it.
Quoting:Our community really needs to get its act together. As long as we are unable to aggregate into a cohesive unit we will be taken out piece by piece by a company that has lost touch with its roots.This is a great idea. However, as long as people who don't agree with a particular proposed plan for getting cohesive are viewed as being disloyal to the cause or ridiculed as conspiracy addicts, no actual cohesive unit will ever really exist.
>ridiculed as conspiracy addicts
That's easy to fix: stop going nuts every time Microsoft says "Boo!".
Sometimes I think Microsoft is driving the direction of free software more than the FSF is.
That's easy to fix: stop going nuts every time Microsoft says "Boo!".
Sometimes I think Microsoft is driving the direction of free software more than the FSF is.
Way to not prove a point.
>Way to not prove a point.
My, my, my. We are mite thin-skinned this morning.
My, my, my. We are mite thin-skinned this morning.
Sure thing, Mr. O'Reilly.
>Sure thing,
Good to see we agree. ;0)
Good to see we agree. ;0)
Quoting:Good to see we agree.Like two hippies in a hammock.
Quit bogartin'.
> Way to not prove a point
Actually, the problem with conspiracy theorists is that they do deep analysis without any facts at all.
First Dell wasn't going to offer Linux because Microsoft wouldn't let them.
Then Dell was going to offer Linux but do so poorly.
Then Dell was offering one brand of Linux as part of a deal to allow them to offer another brand of Linux.
There were two things in common with all of these stories. (i) Some members of the community put many, many hours of thought into their analysis. (ii) There was never a single fact to support any of the assertions, none of them were correct in the end, and most of those who made the assertions are still convinced they were right.
What makes the noise about these deals so bad is that not only is there no evidence that they are bad, there's not even a good argument as to why they are bad, just some vague arguments about how a deal between Novell and Microsoft makes Red Hat look bad. Strange thing, it's now many months since the Novell deal was announced and I'm still using Debian without paying a tax to Microsoft.
Actually, the problem with conspiracy theorists is that they do deep analysis without any facts at all.
First Dell wasn't going to offer Linux because Microsoft wouldn't let them.
Then Dell was going to offer Linux but do so poorly.
Then Dell was offering one brand of Linux as part of a deal to allow them to offer another brand of Linux.
There were two things in common with all of these stories. (i) Some members of the community put many, many hours of thought into their analysis. (ii) There was never a single fact to support any of the assertions, none of them were correct in the end, and most of those who made the assertions are still convinced they were right.
What makes the noise about these deals so bad is that not only is there no evidence that they are bad, there's not even a good argument as to why they are bad, just some vague arguments about how a deal between Novell and Microsoft makes Red Hat look bad. Strange thing, it's now many months since the Novell deal was announced and I'm still using Debian without paying a tax to Microsoft.
The issue wasn't what is or isn't wrong with conspiracy theorists. It was summarily dismissing those you don't agree with in the name of cohesiveness. Labeling them as conspiracy theorists was one of the ways that was done.
>What makes the noise about these deals so bad
It's worse than that.
All that noise takes time and energy and funnels it into something that is ultimately none productive.
It creates the "compiler warning" effect -- when a build routinely produces a pile of warnings, you tend to ignore them, including possible real problems that may arise. When everything is special, nothing is. A truly grotesque evil might get lost in the midst of routine, everyday evil.
Mostly, though, it seems to put FOSS folks to work for Microsoft, letting their outrage take a toll that millions in marketing can't accomplish.
It's worse than that.
All that noise takes time and energy and funnels it into something that is ultimately none productive.
It creates the "compiler warning" effect -- when a build routinely produces a pile of warnings, you tend to ignore them, including possible real problems that may arise. When everything is special, nothing is. A truly grotesque evil might get lost in the midst of routine, everyday evil.
Mostly, though, it seems to put FOSS folks to work for Microsoft, letting their outrage take a toll that millions in marketing can't accomplish.
>It was summarily dismissing those you don't agree with in the name of cohesiveness.
No, that's not it at all. Nobody has been dismissed. Somebody, however, has gotten in a snit.
No, that's not it at all. Nobody has been dismissed. Somebody, however, has gotten in a snit.
Unbelievable
This is really unbelievably stupid.
1) They saw the backlash against Novell. Do they really think there won't be backlash against them? Just read the Xandros forums and see.
2) When the Novell deal was signed the GPLv3 was in it's infancy. Now it's in the final draft. Xandros knows what it says and should know how it will impact their deal -- and it won't be pretty.
3) Novell had a decent bargaining position. They had IP that MS needed. This resulted in a large wad of cash going to Novell. Not so for Xandros.
4) The only reason Novell is not doing badly is because of the large amount of vouchers MS is practically giving away. Vouchers that have been paid for. MS won't be selling Xandros vouchers. Expect Xandros sales to go down hard.
Xandros management is far more shortsighted that Novell was. I don't expect the company to last long after this incredibly stupid move.
1) They saw the backlash against Novell. Do they really think there won't be backlash against them? Just read the Xandros forums and see.
2) When the Novell deal was signed the GPLv3 was in it's infancy. Now it's in the final draft. Xandros knows what it says and should know how it will impact their deal -- and it won't be pretty.
3) Novell had a decent bargaining position. They had IP that MS needed. This resulted in a large wad of cash going to Novell. Not so for Xandros.
4) The only reason Novell is not doing badly is because of the large amount of vouchers MS is practically giving away. Vouchers that have been paid for. MS won't be selling Xandros vouchers. Expect Xandros sales to go down hard.
Xandros management is far more shortsighted that Novell was. I don't expect the company to last long after this incredibly stupid move.
Maybe this is the new MS strategy. Go round all the OSS companies one by one offering deals. When you've removed all those who will pay from the field you get heavy with those that are left.
Well if Xandros go down that don't count anyway or do it....They did already go down one time before. Remember the Redmond distro....that one was then rebranded into Xandros. If i remember right. Correct me if i am wrong please.
Anyway it don't matter if Microsoft gets deal after deal (If the manage to get anymore after gpl v3 ?). Anyone can build a new one. And since we have a choice we can easily switch from bad ones to good ones. Thats not the case in the crappy windows world. Right. It also damages Microsofts brand. Because now they say that Linux is BETTER then windows. They also makes all the investors very impatiant for return of there money and they will not get as much as they hoped. After all Microsoft don't dare to sue anyone. Just take a look at the crappy value of Microsofts stock...Thats way below what it once was. And even worse. Vista is not selling good enought....
So who is in trouble, NOT LINUX......
Anyway it don't matter if Microsoft gets deal after deal (If the manage to get anymore after gpl v3 ?). Anyone can build a new one. And since we have a choice we can easily switch from bad ones to good ones. Thats not the case in the crappy windows world. Right. It also damages Microsofts brand. Because now they say that Linux is BETTER then windows. They also makes all the investors very impatiant for return of there money and they will not get as much as they hoped. After all Microsoft don't dare to sue anyone. Just take a look at the crappy value of Microsofts stock...Thats way below what it once was. And even worse. Vista is not selling good enought....
So who is in trouble, NOT LINUX......
Wowzers, redhat is looking better and better - and I'm an old redhat user who went elsewhere in 2004, after they ended support for the shrink wrap versions. Time to revisit this whole scene again, methinks... hmm, where's a blank dvd for that fedora 7 iso...
> Remember the Redmond distro....that one was then rebranded into Xandros. If i remember right. Correct me if i am wrong please.
I believe Xandros is the old Corel Linux.
I believe Xandros is the old Corel Linux.
Well okey i was wrong then....But the corel linux did also bite the dust....
Linspire used to be Lindows iirc.
maggrand, my recollection is that Corel, a Canadian company that made Draw! and owns WordPerfect, jumped into Linux in about 1999 with Corel Linux.
Not much later, maybe 6 months, MS invested a large sum of money in Corel, on the condition that their Linux go away.
Corel spun off Corel Linux as a separate company and dist known as Xandros.
So Corel Linux did fail once before, but that failure was a direct cause of MS intervention.
Remember, not soon after these deals Corel became a has-been non-player in the industry, the Founder resigned, etc.
Xandros, like Novell, is another corp that has not learned from its own history.
Not much later, maybe 6 months, MS invested a large sum of money in Corel, on the condition that their Linux go away.
Corel spun off Corel Linux as a separate company and dist known as Xandros.
So Corel Linux did fail once before, but that failure was a direct cause of MS intervention.
Remember, not soon after these deals Corel became a has-been non-player in the industry, the Founder resigned, etc.
Xandros, like Novell, is another corp that has not learned from its own history.
"Maybe this is the new MS strategy. Go round all the OSS companies one by one offering deals. When you've removed all those who will pay from the field you get heavy with those that are left."
BINGO!
Also, if memory serves, Redmond Linux became Lycoris, then was bought out by what is now known as Mandriva.
BINGO!
Also, if memory serves, Redmond Linux became Lycoris, then was bought out by what is now known as Mandriva.
Per a couple of articles I wrote on the Mandriva-Lycoris deal, Mandriva actually only bought pieces of Lycoris, rather than the company as a whole. The company simply closed its doors, as its owner went to work for Mandriva.
DCParris,
Do you recall the name of the Lycoris Dev? I can't remember...
Do you recall the name of the Lycoris Dev? I can't remember...
If by Lycoris Dev, you mean the fellow who worked for Mandriva for a few weeks, then got his entire department cost-cut out from under him, that would be Joseph Cheek, the guy who started Redmond Linux.
This is fun to watch. :)
I guess there is something to this strategy, which sander implied. It could be said that these pointless deals are a new way for MS to strangle existing FOSS vendors who are gullible enough to fall for it just to weed out the FOSS ecosystem a bit and supposedly make it weaker.
Of course.. this might shoot down a few FOSS companies, but it wont shoot down the ecosystem which produced them. Out of the ashes of the ones who may fall, even bigger challenges for MS will rise.
It's like killing a few bees in a swarm of thousands. :D
MS is a real comedy show these days. I can't wait for their next move! :D
I guess there is something to this strategy, which sander implied. It could be said that these pointless deals are a new way for MS to strangle existing FOSS vendors who are gullible enough to fall for it just to weed out the FOSS ecosystem a bit and supposedly make it weaker.
Of course.. this might shoot down a few FOSS companies, but it wont shoot down the ecosystem which produced them. Out of the ashes of the ones who may fall, even bigger challenges for MS will rise.
It's like killing a few bees in a swarm of thousands. :D
MS is a real comedy show these days. I can't wait for their next move! :D
My gut feeling is that Microsoft is trying to spike the punch, and so far its working fantastically. Get the guests drunk and fighting with each other so they don't notice what is really going on.
Let me back up a little..
Microsoft is using the one thing they have that most Open Source companies need desperately, cash.
Which they happen to have a bigger pile of than anyone, let me repeat, anyone else. You and I both know that they have more money in the bank at their disposal than any other "technology" company.
They also know that they don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to whether Linux infringes on any of their patents so they can't use the one real weapon they do have, their cash, to get rid of Linux. So instead of taking their case to court where it would blow up in their face they are using their cash as bait to get Open Source companies to bite on their "cross license compatibility and protection" contracts.
They are literally fishing their way into the Open Source sector and by doing so it does several things for them.
1. It adds credibility to their completely unfounded claim that Linux infringes on their patents without ever having to be specific or go to court and prove it. It allows suspicion and doubt to do all the work for them
2. It allows them to stick their fingers into an area of the technology market where they otherwise would have no avenue of access.
3. It finally gives their PR and marketing departments something, anything to work with.
and the easiest one of all..
4. It gets everyone in the FOSS community mad at one of our own and completely distracted from what is really going on which also makes them look good to existing and prospective customers by using our community's inherent dispersed power base and lack of focused opinion against us.
Sure were mad at Microsoft but we spend more time and attention on the "traitor" who betrayed us, and that's exactly why it is working in their favor.
"Keep your friends close but your enemies closer."
But like I said, that's just my gut feeling. I hope I am wrong, but so far it looks like it is working just like they want it too.
Let me back up a little..
Microsoft is using the one thing they have that most Open Source companies need desperately, cash.
Which they happen to have a bigger pile of than anyone, let me repeat, anyone else. You and I both know that they have more money in the bank at their disposal than any other "technology" company.
They also know that they don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to whether Linux infringes on any of their patents so they can't use the one real weapon they do have, their cash, to get rid of Linux. So instead of taking their case to court where it would blow up in their face they are using their cash as bait to get Open Source companies to bite on their "cross license compatibility and protection" contracts.
They are literally fishing their way into the Open Source sector and by doing so it does several things for them.
1. It adds credibility to their completely unfounded claim that Linux infringes on their patents without ever having to be specific or go to court and prove it. It allows suspicion and doubt to do all the work for them
2. It allows them to stick their fingers into an area of the technology market where they otherwise would have no avenue of access.
3. It finally gives their PR and marketing departments something, anything to work with.
and the easiest one of all..
4. It gets everyone in the FOSS community mad at one of our own and completely distracted from what is really going on which also makes them look good to existing and prospective customers by using our community's inherent dispersed power base and lack of focused opinion against us.
Sure were mad at Microsoft but we spend more time and attention on the "traitor" who betrayed us, and that's exactly why it is working in their favor.
"Keep your friends close but your enemies closer."
But like I said, that's just my gut feeling. I hope I am wrong, but so far it looks like it is working just like they want it too.
There is no such thing as bad press! No matter what M$ does or who they make deals with GNU/Linux is getting millions of dollars worth of free press. lol
Which distros will be next????
28 earlier comments in the full thread.
I think it's desktop Linux that needs to be aiming at 30%.
Quoting: I think it's desktop Linux that needs to be aiming at 30%.
Well, Mac has about 3% and it seems like everyone knows someone who's got one, so I'd say even 10% would be a real kick in the butt for MS and could easily lead to a quicker (still slow) expansion on the desktop, since there would be so many Linux users at that point. Linux just needs to reach a tipping point, whatever that might be. I think that 30% on the desktop by the end of the year is a bit of a stretch, but 5-10% is very much attainable with the help of Dell and the Tux Project, and good old word of mouth. Vista being such garbage also helps...Office 2007 being such garbage also helps...Exchange 2007 being such garbage also helps. MS is giving us all kinds of help, and Linux has gotten all kinds of publicity as a result of the Novell deal and the Xandros deal (and the Indy 500 on top of that). I think we're very close to the tipping point on the desktop right now.
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but there are two pieces still missing. First, we will need (at least) tens of millions of dollars in marketing. Second, we need to get into the schools, both secondary schools and universities. Until then we can forget about big market share gains.
dcparris:
> Lining up those two is one way to get me
> to watch wrestling - WWF or WoW or whatever.
A capitol idea! The battle of the pounds or dollars, and egos. A certain other bloggister wrote in his captioned piece 'That is right, Microsoft, just keep buying air!', that the great Microsoft can never BUY "Richard Stallman. Or Mark Shuttleworth. Or Ian Murdock. Or Patrick Volkerding. Or any of the other people who actually MAKE LINUX HAPPEN". So wrestling duels the likes of of Ellison and Ballner will rather occur instead, what?
A capitol idea! The battle of the pounds or dollars, and egos. A certain other bloggister wrote in his captioned piece 'That is right, Microsoft, just keep buying air!', that the great Microsoft can never BUY "Richard Stallman. Or Mark Shuttleworth. Or Ian Murdock. Or Patrick Volkerding. Or any of the other people who actually MAKE LINUX HAPPEN". So wrestling duels the likes of of Ellison and Ballner will rather occur instead, what?
Whoever guessed LG wins.
PC World reports in http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,132662-c,companynews/artic... that "Microsoft, LG Sign Linux Pact"
PC World reports in http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,132662-c,companynews/artic... that "Microsoft, LG Sign Linux Pact"
Microsoft's game plan is to get as many people to sign up to a patent agreement as is possible, before GPL4 takes effect. They can then claim that they are being paid for their alleged patents. If they have enough companies signed up the smaller number that gain full patent protection will either not matter, or will, hopefully, be forced out of the enterprise market, because of the perception, that Microsoft will attempt to create, that the signed up companies are safe. Microsoft will then have a continuing source of income, as Linux continues to ramp up and Microsoft products begin to fail commercially.
If Linux doesn't ramp up and Microsoft products fail, they have themselves covered anyway.
If Linux doesn't ramp up and Microsoft products fail, they have themselves covered anyway.
> signed up companies are safe
If Microsoft takes anyone to court and the patent claim is found to be valid, everyone loses the rights to the offending code. The only safety is from a Microsoft lawsuit, which of course might happen. The only thing GPLv3 does is encourage Microsoft to sue Linux users.
> They can then claim that they are being paid for their alleged patents.
Anyone licensing patents from Microsoft is in violation of GPLv2. Microsoft can say anything they want, but clearly that would be a lie, as GPLv2 and GPLv3 prohibit patent licenses.
If Microsoft takes anyone to court and the patent claim is found to be valid, everyone loses the rights to the offending code. The only safety is from a Microsoft lawsuit, which of course might happen. The only thing GPLv3 does is encourage Microsoft to sue Linux users.
> They can then claim that they are being paid for their alleged patents.
Anyone licensing patents from Microsoft is in violation of GPLv2. Microsoft can say anything they want, but clearly that would be a lie, as GPLv2 and GPLv3 prohibit patent licenses.
>If Microsoft takes anyone to court and the patent claim is found to be valid, everyone loses the rights to the offending code.
An interesting concept when you consider that patents are legally valid until proven otherwise.
>Microsoft can say anything they want,
Something they do with regularity but without regard for truth.
An interesting concept when you consider that patents are legally valid until proven otherwise.
>Microsoft can say anything they want,
Something they do with regularity but without regard for truth.
> Something they do with regularity but without regard for truth.
Kind of like some bloggers.
Kind of like some bloggers.
> An interesting concept when you consider that patents are legally valid until proven otherwise.
What I'm referring to is the distinction between a vague claim that there is patent infringement and naming a specific patent that can be enforced against a Linux distributor. The patent itself is valid until a court or the patent office says otherwise, but Microsoft would still have to prove that the Linux code infringes that patent.
What I'm referring to is the distinction between a vague claim that there is patent infringement and naming a specific patent that can be enforced against a Linux distributor. The patent itself is valid until a court or the patent office says otherwise, but Microsoft would still have to prove that the Linux code infringes that patent.
dcparris:
> Kind of like some bloggers.
Another capitol thought there. Oh jolly, I just really love the counterpoint to bloggister Mr. dinotrac's continued discussion end-points of the last daiy or two now! Or do you have in mind another bloggister specifically do you? ;-D
Another capitol thought there. Oh jolly, I just really love the counterpoint to bloggister Mr. dinotrac's continued discussion end-points of the last daiy or two now! Or do you have in mind another bloggister specifically do you? ;-D
>What I'm referring to is the distinction between a vague claim that there is patent infringement and naming a specific patent that can be enforced against a Linux distributor.
Gotcha. Interesting thing about the Novell deal -- it did not, to my knowledge, grant any specific patent licenses that would cover GPL'd software.
Gotcha. Interesting thing about the Novell deal -- it did not, to my knowledge, grant any specific patent licenses that would cover GPL'd software.
> I just really love the counterpoint to bloggister Mr. dinotrac's continued discussion end-points of the last daiy or two now!
So Dino has a blog now? News to me.
So Dino has a blog now? News to me.
>So Dino has a blog now? News to me.
Shhh.
We don't want to confuse them with facts.
Shhh.
We don't want to confuse them with facts.
> We don't want to confuse them with facts.
I don't think we need to resort to an indiscriminate use of facts to confuse Pete, Dino. :)
I don't think we need to resort to an indiscriminate use of facts to confuse Pete, Dino. :)
Quoting:Or do you have in mind another bloggister specifically do you?One would imagine that the "bloggister"(?) could easily be other than the above. Say, the actual commentator of this quote? :/
Mostly good discussion the last few days on this. Might I also suggest a NEW discussion thread on the same LXer story 'Microsoft teams with Linux distributor Xandros'? Already passing the 40-comment stage, not that 40 is a comments-milestone or limit in this regard.
....better yet, how about continued discussion on one of threads following the excellent and directly-related LXer Editorial, 'Microsoft & Linux Vendors Trading in Patent Fool's Gold' at http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/87999/index.html ??
We've seen threads longer than 60 posts around here. Discussions are what they are and go where they go. :-)
Well, I don't mean to gloat but...
If we count the LG deal, we all got it wrong.
But if we don't.
Linspire was my WAG 10 days ago.
LOL. :-) ROFLMAO. Ha!
Uh oh...uh.
If we count the LG deal, we all got it wrong.
But if we don't.
Linspire was my WAG 10 days ago.
LOL. :-) ROFLMAO. Ha!
Uh oh...uh.
I must admit that I'm surprised, but, as I said earlier, not shocked.
Wish they provided more details in the announcement.
What's interesting to me is that the announcement seems to say nothing about protection for Linux or GPL'd software. Instead, it refers to "Linspire technologies".
Wonder what that means?
Wish they provided more details in the announcement.
What's interesting to me is that the announcement seems to say nothing about protection for Linux or GPL'd software. Instead, it refers to "Linspire technologies".
Wonder what that means?
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It was called "Nightmare on Maple Street". It's been redone recently but I haven't seen it. As far as I'm concerned though, the crap that Microsoft is pulling is scarier than anything I've seen on The Twilight Zone, and I've seen them all.