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Unblocking Blockheads or, Some People Should Not Use Computers or, "The Marching Morons" Comes True
I Give UpBelieve it or not, a corner of my heart is abrim with compassion (I didn't say how big is this corner), and I have often expended this compassion on behalf of the famous mythical Ordinary PC User. When my colleagues ranted and raved about Stupid Hopeless End Lusers, I was the lone voice crying out "Be patient! Be kind and helpful!" For years my personal tagline has been "You're never too old to learn something new, and anyone can learn to do anything."I was the dope who toiled for hours creating nice visual demonstrations to bring computing concepts from the abstract to the concrete. Really, these demos were seriously cool. I showed how HTML messages looked in a plain-text mail client, and how poor developmentally-disabled Outlook typically created HTML that no one else could render even when they wanted to, and I revealed the Secret Checkbox to select plain-text. I gave demonstrations in copy-and-paste (to this day I encounter folks who re-type instead), and how to delete crap from forwarded emails that no one likes getting anyway, because after the hundredth time they're not quite so fresh, but if they insist on sending them then at least make them readable. I revealed the wondrous BCC line in their email clients for those who insist on dumping their entire address books into every email. I even printed all this stuff out on paper to make it more "real". Backups and security gave me endless hours of amusement. I all but tied strings to their hands like marionettes, and showed them how to drag files to their USB sticks for quick and easy backups, and set them up with automatic backups to a central server. I set them up with anti-malware software all configured and ready to go with automatic updates, and to never ever argue with it, but call me when it says a file or message is dangerous. Did I ever get a call? Sure, but not from the dim ones who really should have. Once an entire bank branch was infected with a virus because the bank president himself brought in an infected file. His anti-virus at home wouldn't let him open the file, so he brought it to work, where he cleverly dodged all the smart precautions set up by his office manager. Sheer brilliance, that. Which proves that using the word "naked" in malware has mighty and irresistible powers, and just because someone gets a big paycheck and has a fancy office doesn't mean that brains or skills are involved. Teaching a Pig to SingYou divinely smart readers, already you see where this is going- what a colossal waste of time. A sizable number of humans have devoted their lives to erecting barriers to learning anything new. You can see it when you talk to them- when something as simple as "click this button" produces a glazed expression and drool, you know you've lost them forever. Of course they'll waste hours of your time complaining about how stupid computers are. But even though it's easy money to nod and pretend to listen, and then bill them for every minute wasted on empty complaining (I never had enough nerve to charge a whining penalty, and I wish I had), it's not how I want to spend my time. Life is too short.So I have a New Year's resolution. I don't usually make these, but as I think that time is the most precious commodity of all and I don't want to waste it, I think this calls for a resolution. Which is: I will help only those who are willing to learn, and who will really try. Fortunately, there are a lot of folks like this; unfortunately, I think I have shortchanged them by wasting energy on the other kind. I don't expect every PC user to aspire to elite geek status, but I do expect them to listen, to follow my advice, and to put forth some actual effort- get some howto books, take some classes, sit butts down at computer and really investigate their applications. I don't fault anyone for having problems with their computers, because PCs are complex and annoying, and it's not easy to find competent help. (Geek Squad is good for laughs only.) But unfortunately, inept, willfully-ignorant PC users cause billions of dollars of collateral damage. I wouldn't care if they only shot holes in their own boats, but they're taking the rest of us down with them. So perhaps another resolution is in order: Find a way to keep these folks off the Internet. Let's give them their own pretend Internet, where they'll only infect and annoy each other. I Don't Get ItEven though I have vowed to not waste time, I still expend precious minutes wondering- what happens to some people? Where do they get the idea that they cannot learn? Or is it a form of manipulation to go all helpless, born of laziness? Maybe a punishment/reward program would work: learn this computing task and you'll get a fresh nekked piccy, or your house cleaned and lawn mowed, or whatever is most motivational to you. If you don't learn you get Tasered. Even though kids these days are growing up with computered-everything, most of them are no more advanced than your average TV-remote user. They're just pushing buttons.At the ripe old age of 50 I have more to look forward to than ever- if I had no outside interests, computers, tech in general, and FOSS would keep me challenged and busy the rest of my life. Since I have a lot of outside interests I know I'll never get to everything that I want to. So my fine helpless freeloaders, the free ride is over; I have way too many cool and interesting things to do, and fun people to do them with. I may even make it official and buy the ThinkGeek "No, I will not fix your computer" T-shirt. References"The Marching Morons" by C.M. Kornbluth, in my darker moments, looks like a prophecy"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig." --Robert Heinlein |
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Comments (81)
Unblocking Blockheads
Here is a price list for all those who wonder just what a good deal is when it comes to getting some decent Admin support for those computer troubles.
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~moose/sysadmin/pricelist....
;-)
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~moose/sysadmin/pricelist....
;-)
Scott
Thanks for the price list.
Have a Happy New Year.
Thanks for the price list.
Have a Happy New Year.
False diagnose.
5 earlier comments in the full thread.
Me and all the other geeks want it so!" -- is not a proper reason!
No, it becomes a proper reason if being a moron on the computer is followed by the refusal of the geek to waste time on you.
Truth is that the people Carla described so very accurately, vex the hell out of geeks and we geeks all know they are utterly lost, if we don't help them. Out of courtesy, at least they can learn to do some simple stuff.
When you are payed to do stuff like that, the paycheck is often consolation enough. If one wastes effort on their own unpaid time on this, it becomes very tiresome, very quickly.
If you can't be bothered to operate a computer properly, don't expect others to become your personal IT slave to compensate for your own lack of skills.
Then their is this:
* Why bother about plain text emails if HTML emails work for them?
Because sending garbled messages to people who can't read them easily wastes serious money in business.
* Why bother with copy'n'paste if retyping works for them?
Because retyping wastes unnecessary time and money. Bosses don't pay for incompetence.
* Why delete stuff from email, that doesn't bother them but just other readers?
Again, endless pages of duplicate text wastes time and money.
* Why bother about a BCC line when dumping their address books work?
Thank you for dumping my e-mail address around and increasing my chances of getting unwanted spam and malware. I'll think kindly of your stupidity when I have to clean up after the mess you caused.
No, it becomes a proper reason if being a moron on the computer is followed by the refusal of the geek to waste time on you.
Truth is that the people Carla described so very accurately, vex the hell out of geeks and we geeks all know they are utterly lost, if we don't help them. Out of courtesy, at least they can learn to do some simple stuff.
When you are payed to do stuff like that, the paycheck is often consolation enough. If one wastes effort on their own unpaid time on this, it becomes very tiresome, very quickly.
If you can't be bothered to operate a computer properly, don't expect others to become your personal IT slave to compensate for your own lack of skills.
Then their is this:
* Why bother about plain text emails if HTML emails work for them?
Because sending garbled messages to people who can't read them easily wastes serious money in business.
* Why bother with copy'n'paste if retyping works for them?
Because retyping wastes unnecessary time and money. Bosses don't pay for incompetence.
* Why delete stuff from email, that doesn't bother them but just other readers?
Again, endless pages of duplicate text wastes time and money.
* Why bother about a BCC line when dumping their address books work?
Thank you for dumping my e-mail address around and increasing my chances of getting unwanted spam and malware. I'll think kindly of your stupidity when I have to clean up after the mess you caused.
I am with Carla 100%. From personal experience:
I once agreed to try to fix the USB scanner belonging to someone my best friend knew. I'll never make that mistake again.
Once she had me there without him, she started harnaguing about him, to me, making several criminal accusations.
At the end of the day, I took half-payment and terminated the agreement. I told her why, told her that she was setting herself up for criminal prosecution, and told her that if she ever called me (I had foolishly given her my phone number) I would file a harassment complaint with the police department, detailing what she had subjected me to.
She had the nerve to be offended, of course. Her own brainlessness became obvious when, about an hour later, my best friend called wanting to know what was going on.
That's right. She had called HIM to complain about ME!
After I told him how she had behaved, he said, "No wonder she was so mad. You actually used logic with her."
Never again will I freelance like that.
I once agreed to try to fix the USB scanner belonging to someone my best friend knew. I'll never make that mistake again.
Once she had me there without him, she started harnaguing about him, to me, making several criminal accusations.
At the end of the day, I took half-payment and terminated the agreement. I told her why, told her that she was setting herself up for criminal prosecution, and told her that if she ever called me (I had foolishly given her my phone number) I would file a harassment complaint with the police department, detailing what she had subjected me to.
She had the nerve to be offended, of course. Her own brainlessness became obvious when, about an hour later, my best friend called wanting to know what was going on.
That's right. She had called HIM to complain about ME!
After I told him how she had behaved, he said, "No wonder she was so mad. You actually used logic with her."
Never again will I freelance like that.
@randyennis: I didn't question her decision to stop wasting her time on trying to teach everybody. That's absolutely OK.
I have a candidate to such a decision myself, but keep on being helpful because (1) it's a family sort of thing, and (2) the guy is about 20 years older than you! You may like to think about his perspective and his willingness to learn stuff that's not important to him.
While her decision is understandable, I do question her conclusion that people (in general) don't want to learn something new. Especially among Linux geeks this seems to have become a sort of prejudice, I believe.
But maybe, she just failed to educate herself about better ways of teaching and advocating? Generating fancy presentations might be not sufficient.
Just like understanding computers helps you to be more effective using them, understanding human nature makes you more effective teaching and advocating to humans.
It's quite ironic that people here argue for the former while at the same time argue against the later.
@r_t_trip: Who said that people expect geeks to become their personal IT slaves? I certainly didn't. If you don't want to provide free support, don't do it. Or get paid for doing it.
However, calling everybody idiots just because there are some very clueless ones still isn't right. Especially, if you fail to motivate about the subject at hand by not providing proper reasons.
I have a candidate to such a decision myself, but keep on being helpful because (1) it's a family sort of thing, and (2) the guy is about 20 years older than you! You may like to think about his perspective and his willingness to learn stuff that's not important to him.
While her decision is understandable, I do question her conclusion that people (in general) don't want to learn something new. Especially among Linux geeks this seems to have become a sort of prejudice, I believe.
But maybe, she just failed to educate herself about better ways of teaching and advocating? Generating fancy presentations might be not sufficient.
Just like understanding computers helps you to be more effective using them, understanding human nature makes you more effective teaching and advocating to humans.
It's quite ironic that people here argue for the former while at the same time argue against the later.
@r_t_trip: Who said that people expect geeks to become their personal IT slaves? I certainly didn't. If you don't want to provide free support, don't do it. Or get paid for doing it.
However, calling everybody idiots just because there are some very clueless ones still isn't right. Especially, if you fail to motivate about the subject at hand by not providing proper reasons.
Carla,
You are so right. Also, while I've been a fan of your stuff for some time (I quit reading Linux Journal), you have just cemented it by:
(a) admitting to being 50 years old (I turn 54 in 10 days) (b) quoting Robert A. Heinlein
Keep up the great work - and Happy New Year, everybody!
Mark
You are so right. Also, while I've been a fan of your stuff for some time (I quit reading Linux Journal), you have just cemented it by:
(a) admitting to being 50 years old (I turn 54 in 10 days) (b) quoting Robert A. Heinlein
Keep up the great work - and Happy New Year, everybody!
Mark
Claus, you misunderstood the entire article if you think I'm calling all people idiots who don't want to learn, or have this burning desire to teach everyone whether they want it or not. You also totally missed the point about collateral damage, or worse, don't think it matters.
Good points all around, and I truly sympathize with Carla on this. Being one of those who will kill free time that isn't being chewed up by kids, honey-do's, or WoW by doing IRC support. I have run the gamut with users who truly wish to learn but lack even the framework to know how or what questions to ask (the best kind btw) to the "I know everything there is to know about everything else so just help me with my question".
There comes a time when the helper has to step back and realize "This person would have problems using a toothpick" and move on to someone else. There really isn't a way to tell someone that you have met more intelligent soggy sawdust politely, the only thing is to remind them you are a volunteer and that their problem may well be beyond your skills. Let them think its technical rather than psychological.
"Just say no"
There comes a time when the helper has to step back and realize "This person would have problems using a toothpick" and move on to someone else. There really isn't a way to tell someone that you have met more intelligent soggy sawdust politely, the only thing is to remind them you are a volunteer and that their problem may well be beyond your skills. Let them think its technical rather than psychological.
"Just say no"
As much tech support I've done since starting corporate desktop and network help, "help desk", assembling PCs to order, then delivering and setting up for people, ugh!
One thing I've learned, some people should not have computers.
But one step above that point are two types: Those who require explicit instructions, and those who won't listen to explicit instructions (because they already know everything about computers).
It takes very little time before someone will be advised to use plain text and BCC, but those who refuse are lost. They just won't, because they know better than you do, nya! The only ones they will listen to are the ones that _they_ acknowledge as superior, usually only their secretary or boss.
I've had people object to the point of abject hostility that I dare to do a "reply to all" to a vast list of people in which I was one in the "To:" line, and when I tell them to use BCC if they don't want that sort of thing to happen, they blame it all on me. Sure enough, the next email I get from them has some dozen or hundred people in the To line again.
Here's my personal advice: Find a polite way to tell people what Netiquette is, then forget them. If they don't listen the first time, they won't listen the second.
Don't bother trying to teach a frog to sing. It wastes your time, and annoys the frog.
One thing I've learned, some people should not have computers.
But one step above that point are two types: Those who require explicit instructions, and those who won't listen to explicit instructions (because they already know everything about computers).
It takes very little time before someone will be advised to use plain text and BCC, but those who refuse are lost. They just won't, because they know better than you do, nya! The only ones they will listen to are the ones that _they_ acknowledge as superior, usually only their secretary or boss.
I've had people object to the point of abject hostility that I dare to do a "reply to all" to a vast list of people in which I was one in the "To:" line, and when I tell them to use BCC if they don't want that sort of thing to happen, they blame it all on me. Sure enough, the next email I get from them has some dozen or hundred people in the To line again.
Here's my personal advice: Find a polite way to tell people what Netiquette is, then forget them. If they don't listen the first time, they won't listen the second.
Don't bother trying to teach a frog to sing. It wastes your time, and annoys the frog.
I think you all missed Claus's point.
The fact is most people are self centred. You don't/can't teach them anything if it means they are asked to consider other people.
You can, on the other hand, get them to
bother about plain text emails bother with copy'n'paste i bother to delete stuff from email bother about a BCC line
if they think THEY will get something out of it. On the other hand they aren't interested if it's merely (in their mind) to benefit someone else, even if they are reaping the benefits of someone else doing it.
That's why when teaching people to Google, you find out what their interests are, and get them to Google those things, that's why searching for their name is so effective, and impresses them the most.
Actually it's "Don't bother trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and annoys the pig." and it was Robert Heinlein to whom it is attributed.
The fact is most people are self centred. You don't/can't teach them anything if it means they are asked to consider other people.
You can, on the other hand, get them to
bother about plain text emails bother with copy'n'paste i bother to delete stuff from email bother about a BCC line
if they think THEY will get something out of it. On the other hand they aren't interested if it's merely (in their mind) to benefit someone else, even if they are reaping the benefits of someone else doing it.
That's why when teaching people to Google, you find out what their interests are, and get them to Google those things, that's why searching for their name is so effective, and impresses them the most.
Quoting:Don't bother trying to teach a frog to sing. It wastes your time, and annoys the frog.
Actually it's "Don't bother trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and annoys the pig." and it was Robert Heinlein to whom it is attributed.
odd, my post came up empty. Shrug, will it was saved so here it is again:
gone again.
is there something broken on lx'er? Firefox and konq both fail to post my comment. . .
gone again.
is there something broken on lx'er? Firefox and konq both fail to post my comment. . .
No tracyanne, you missed the point, which was that Claus missed the point. I think you're both reading some other article.
a_hippie_2:
Your posts are parsed. If there is a less-than sign without a matching greater-than sign, the contents are discarded. Not sure what happens if there is a matching sign, but no valid tag. But my experiment in this post suggests they are discarded as well.
Your posts are parsed. If there is a less-than sign without a matching greater-than sign, the contents are discarded. Not sure what happens if there is a matching sign, but no valid tag. But my experiment in this post suggests they are discarded as well.
Quoting:No tracyanne, you missed the point, which was that Claus missed the point. I think you're both reading some other article.
If you say so.
Quoting:* People who sent HTML e-mails usually don't bother when getting HTML e-mails. * People who don't delete stuff from e-mails usually don't mind getting e-mails without deleted stuff. * People who dump their address books usually don't mind getting e-mails with address books dumped in the address field.
You're missing the point. They send *me* email. They are bothering *me* and wasting *my* time. By not following netiquette they are saying that their time is more valuable than my time and I find that offensive.
> By not following netiquette they are saying that their time is more valuable than my time and I find that offensive.
Indeed, I couldn't agree more.
So once they demonstrate they can not or will not be taught differently, don't waste more of your time.
Indeed, I couldn't agree more.
So once they demonstrate they can not or will not be taught differently, don't waste more of your time.
Hmm.... Frustration is quite understandable. The same approach to teaching people won't work on everybody. Not everybody's going to be wowed by a nice cool graphical slide show with wizbang animations and sound effects explaining how certain features of an e-mail client help the user be more productive.
In a sense, claus and Carla both have things correct. The user must be motivated to learn. A lot of users out there have this phobia that computers are monstrous, magical boxes that are all knowing. These users feel truly stupid for the first time in their life, and deep down, they hate it with a passion. That's why Justin Breithaupt, who also runs a computer business in Pomeroy, Washington has been talking to these same types of users to find out what works and what doesn't for them concerning an interface. I am doing my own research so that one day, users will find a reason to walk away from Big Bad Redmond.
In a sense, claus and Carla both have things correct. The user must be motivated to learn. A lot of users out there have this phobia that computers are monstrous, magical boxes that are all knowing. These users feel truly stupid for the first time in their life, and deep down, they hate it with a passion. That's why Justin Breithaupt, who also runs a computer business in Pomeroy, Washington has been talking to these same types of users to find out what works and what doesn't for them concerning an interface. I am doing my own research so that one day, users will find a reason to walk away from Big Bad Redmond.
Quoting:A lot of users out there have this phobia that computers are monstrous, magical boxes that are all knowing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_In,_Garbage_Out Always alive...
Bingo. Computers can do amazing things, but are as dumb as a brick and will only do exactly what they are told to do. ;)
I really hate this stupid thing,
I wish that they would sell it.
It never does just what I want,
But only what I tell it.
The point of my rant was not that I have this insane pathological need to make people use computers in the way that I think is best. I don't know how anyone could get that from the article; some of you make it sound like I'm pouncing on random computer users and demanding that they repent and reform. It's when people ask for my help- whether they actually pay me money, or whether I let myself be suckered into helping friends or family for free- and exert heroic efforts to avoid actually learning anything, that's what I get cheesed at. Thank you to the many lxerers who do get this.
I do not care in the slightest about folks who aren't interested; it's the ones who say "help me learn this" and then refuse to exert the slightest effort to learn that are wastes of time.
Some people simply should not ever go near a PC. Just like some folks should not be allowed to drive, or to handle sharp knives, or power tools, or many of the everyday things we take for granted. Not because they're incapable of learning a basic competence, but because somewhere in their lives they decided to be afraid of ever learning anything new, and refuse to even try. It's a sad thing to be in such a state, but I've chosen to not waste my time with such people.
I do not care in the slightest about folks who aren't interested; it's the ones who say "help me learn this" and then refuse to exert the slightest effort to learn that are wastes of time.
Some people simply should not ever go near a PC. Just like some folks should not be allowed to drive, or to handle sharp knives, or power tools, or many of the everyday things we take for granted. Not because they're incapable of learning a basic competence, but because somewhere in their lives they decided to be afraid of ever learning anything new, and refuse to even try. It's a sad thing to be in such a state, but I've chosen to not waste my time with such people.
I never said that you had an insane pathological need to make people use computers in the way you thought was best nor did I state that you were pouncing on random users. I figured it was people who did not want to learn in the first place. Whether it was fear or it was disinterest altogether, there is usually a reason behind someone not wanting to learn. Lots of people over-complicate matters and therefore can not seem to learn fast enough.
"somewhere in their lives they decided to be afraid of ever learning anything new, and refuse to even try. It's a sad thing to be in such a state, but I've chosen to not waste my time with such people."
Understandable. However, you might want to watch the movie Idiocracy and then re-assess what you just said. Maybe the teaching style doesn't match the style of learning. There needs to be more teachers with different styles in that case. However, I guarantee that most who don't understand "clicking a mouse" and other forms of terminology are afraid of learning, because they think it takes a wizard to run those things, when that is not the case at all. Again, people do not like feeling stupid and more than likely feel really bad for not being "smart enough." Then again, I can be completely full of bat poop.
"somewhere in their lives they decided to be afraid of ever learning anything new, and refuse to even try. It's a sad thing to be in such a state, but I've chosen to not waste my time with such people."
Understandable. However, you might want to watch the movie Idiocracy and then re-assess what you just said. Maybe the teaching style doesn't match the style of learning. There needs to be more teachers with different styles in that case. However, I guarantee that most who don't understand "clicking a mouse" and other forms of terminology are afraid of learning, because they think it takes a wizard to run those things, when that is not the case at all. Again, people do not like feeling stupid and more than likely feel really bad for not being "smart enough." Then again, I can be completely full of bat poop.
Speaking of Blockheads
I ran across this on digg this morning: http://rixstep.com/1/1/20070724,00.shtml
It's a collection of comments from a certain JerryLeeCooper posted in response to this ZDNet story: http://education.zdnet.com/?p=908
Hillarious!
It's a collection of comments from a certain JerryLeeCooper posted in response to this ZDNet story: http://education.zdnet.com/?p=908
Hillarious!
Those are some of the best troll posts I've seen. A very nicely calculated display of ignorance but it's a little over-the-top. A real idiot wouldn't be that articulate.
Oh come on, don't disillusion me! I want the deer one to be real!
Wow...just...wow
I think the problem here is that the Linux fans are a little too over-reactive and allow themselves to get baited into these flamewars. These were a constant activity on Tom's Hardware whenever a platform vs. platform news item was posted, usually a three-way battle between Linux, Mac, and Windows users. They have since disabled commenting on news items.
The Truth Will Make You Free
CYNIC, n.
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
-- Ambrose Bierce
Feeling a little cynical today, are we Carla?
-- Ambrose Bierce
Feeling a little cynical today, are we Carla?
heh, by your definition, yes!
Mutual respect and game theory
Nice rant TC. I can completely relate (and I'm 50 too ;-)).
What really annoys me when I try to help someone is if they do not show me the courtesy of reading and trying to understand what I am saying. This happens all the time especially online where people don't bother to properly read posts. I think this shows a lack of respect. It is one thing to disagree with advice it is another altogether to ignore it and act like a baby starling with its beak open.
After much grinding of teeth on the Ubuntu forum I have adopted an approach which has been shown rigorously in game theory to produce the optimal outcome:
Always give someone the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of any interaction. Then as soon as any lack of respect becomes evident let them know kindly. If they then persist with lack of respect terminate the interaction rather rapidly.
I find the basic dynamic above reduces blood pressure and ends up helping those who can be helped.
What really annoys me when I try to help someone is if they do not show me the courtesy of reading and trying to understand what I am saying. This happens all the time especially online where people don't bother to properly read posts. I think this shows a lack of respect. It is one thing to disagree with advice it is another altogether to ignore it and act like a baby starling with its beak open.
After much grinding of teeth on the Ubuntu forum I have adopted an approach which has been shown rigorously in game theory to produce the optimal outcome:
Always give someone the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of any interaction. Then as soon as any lack of respect becomes evident let them know kindly. If they then persist with lack of respect terminate the interaction rather rapidly.
I find the basic dynamic above reduces blood pressure and ends up helping those who can be helped.
You call it game theory. Looks to me like 'don't feed the troll'.
Quoting:Always give someone the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of any interaction. Then as soon as any lack of respect becomes evident let them know kindly. If they then persist with lack of respect terminate the interaction rather rapidly."Assume stupidity before malice."
And as soon as the malice becomes evident, act accordingly.
Martin,
I find it more irritating than trolling since the latter can always be quickly dismissed. Figuring out whether someone is genuine about learning takes interaction and time unfortunately hence the pretentious reference to game theory ;-)
@montezuma
hehehe
Quoting: ...act like a baby starling with its beak open...
hehehe
Yes, but things can be taken a bit too far as well. I once heard a story of how a brilliant software developer was basically treated like they no longer existed because they couldn't understand the "no top posting" rule for the developer mailing list...
The ripe old age of 50
> "At the ripe old age of 50..."
Pfft. Who are you trying to fool. Either that picture is way out of date, or you are more like 30.
Pfft. Who are you trying to fool. Either that picture is way out of date, or you are more like 30.
I could lie and say "aww, thanks! It's due to pure thoughts, clean living, and Linux!" But it is an old picture :)
Linux makes you younger?
echo 25 > /sys/bus/human/devices/0.0/age
TC -
Ripe old age of 50?
Sorry, little girl, there is no ripe old age of 50. Sigh. I guess that's the way it always is with you young chicks. "I'm so old! I'm so fat! I'm so annoying to anyone who wishes they were as young and as thin as I am!
Seriousl - 50 is the new 49, or something like that.
I would mention that you're only as old as you feel, but...
50 is old enough for those early morning (especially cold mornings) "Oh my bleeping back, please don't make me go up/down the stairs and really, why can't I just sleep in until ....well, whenever.
Ripe old age of 50?
Sorry, little girl, there is no ripe old age of 50. Sigh. I guess that's the way it always is with you young chicks. "I'm so old! I'm so fat! I'm so annoying to anyone who wishes they were as young and as thin as I am!
Seriousl - 50 is the new 49, or something like that.
I would mention that you're only as old as you feel, but...
50 is old enough for those early morning (especially cold mornings) "Oh my bleeping back, please don't make me go up/down the stairs and really, why can't I just sleep in until ....well, whenever.
I've always believed I'm as old as the woman I feel.
> I would mention that you're only as old as you feel, but...
On days like today I'm really glad that statement isn't true. :)
On days like today I'm really glad that statement isn't true. :)
>On days like today I'm really glad that statement isn't true. :)
No kidding. The last two days have been dominated by shoveling snow. I now seem to have discovered my inner 80 year old.
No kidding. The last two days have been dominated by shoveling snow. I now seem to have discovered my inner 80 year old.
Oh come on, you old fashioned people! the ripe old age of 50 is so 2007!
51 is entirely going to make it this year!
51 is entirely going to make it this year!
To me, 50 looks younger every day (which means the closer I get ...)
Should have charged them!
It always amazes me how quickly some people will dig for their note pad to write down everything I am teaching them after I utter this golden phrase.
"Before we get started you need to know this is on the clock."
"Before we get started you need to know this is on the clock."
Beautifully said!
Indeed, isn't this one of the underlying reasons people tend to use Windows? It's expensive, even if they themselves were handed a copy by a "friend", so it must be more valuable than something that is merely given away.
http://tlug.jp/articles/Windows_Is_Free
Indeed, isn't this one of the underlying reasons people tend to use Windows? It's expensive, even if they themselves were handed a copy by a "friend", so it must be more valuable than something that is merely given away.
http://tlug.jp/articles/Windows_Is_Free
where do the blocks come from?
7 earlier comments in the full thread.
> Reading for pleasure does seem to be one of the defining factors.
I've always loved curling up with a good book by Dostoyevsky or CS Lewis or Michael Crichton to while away a rainy day.
That reminds me, Neil Stephenson wrote an interesting little book called "in the beginning was the command line", and one of the points he made was that the kinds of people who are comfortable with the written word are the sort who can be comfortable with unix, and those who are uncomfortable with the written word are the sort of people who fear unix.
Speaking of Stephenson, he gives a thinly veiled nod to linux in his epic historical sci story "cryptonomicon", definitely a must read for any self-respecting geek.
I've always loved curling up with a good book by Dostoyevsky or CS Lewis or Michael Crichton to while away a rainy day.
That reminds me, Neil Stephenson wrote an interesting little book called "in the beginning was the command line", and one of the points he made was that the kinds of people who are comfortable with the written word are the sort who can be comfortable with unix, and those who are uncomfortable with the written word are the sort of people who fear unix.
Speaking of Stephenson, he gives a thinly veiled nod to linux in his epic historical sci story "cryptonomicon", definitely a must read for any self-respecting geek.
Only when there is mutual respect and positive encouragement can there be any way of getting someone to learn something new.
And if you want to know why no one wants to discuss why people refuse to learn (which I believe to be a false premise), then write about that, leave out the insults and name calling.
And if you want to know why no one wants to discuss why people refuse to learn (which I believe to be a false premise), then write about that, leave out the insults and name calling.
I second herzeleid's recommendation of Cryptonomicon. I found Neil's cynical sense of humor to be very much like my own.
As for TV, I currently do not pay for cable or satellite and when the analog signals go away in '09 - I might not even bother to get a digital TV or converter box.
As for TV, I currently do not pay for cable or satellite and when the analog signals go away in '09 - I might not even bother to get a digital TV or converter box.
@pat, a rose by any other name ...
being politically correct does no one any good either. Call a spade a spade and if it hurts their poor little feelings then there must be some truth for the barb to stick to in the first place. When one is blunt one is seldom misunderstood.
being politically correct does no one any good either. Call a spade a spade and if it hurts their poor little feelings then there must be some truth for the barb to stick to in the first place. When one is blunt one is seldom misunderstood.
Anonymous Azerthoth, I really hope you stick to only dealing with machines and not people.. You can be honest and not hurt someones feelings, it has nothing to do with being "politically correct", an over-abused term by people who want to disagree, but just can't come out and say it, so much for being blunt.
Anyway, if I'm truly interested in helping someone, the last thing I want to do is generate hostility, so being blunt, as you say, is not really an option. If I'm describing the people I'm trying to help as blockheads after the fact, I'm either in the wrong business, or I maybe I've got some other personal issues that I haven't addressed.
Anyway, if I'm truly interested in helping someone, the last thing I want to do is generate hostility, so being blunt, as you say, is not really an option. If I'm describing the people I'm trying to help as blockheads after the fact, I'm either in the wrong business, or I maybe I've got some other personal issues that I haven't addressed.
_Cryptonomicon_ was, to me, just too long. But then I've been quite the fan of SciFi, so it doesn't really matter me the _why_ of using organ pipes as a temporary RAM device, I don't need a 20 page explanation. Just say it works and let it go.
Yeah, "Finnix". I caught the reference too.
_In The Beginning Was The Command Line_ is a great essay... "And on the other side of the street, they're making tanks. Not slow, hulking iron things, but fast, fully modern Abrams M1A1 main battle tanks that get 100 miles to the gallon and carry your entire family. For free. At any moment there are dozens of them sitting out front of numerous dealerships, with the keys in the ignition, free for the taking."
The essay itself is available to anyone, for free, from Stephenson's website.
Yeah, "Finnix". I caught the reference too.
_In The Beginning Was The Command Line_ is a great essay... "And on the other side of the street, they're making tanks. Not slow, hulking iron things, but fast, fully modern Abrams M1A1 main battle tanks that get 100 miles to the gallon and carry your entire family. For free. At any moment there are dozens of them sitting out front of numerous dealerships, with the keys in the ignition, free for the taking."
The essay itself is available to anyone, for free, from Stephenson's website.
@pat:
Trying to teach someone who doesn't want to learn is sometimes perceived in itself as hostility. Viz.:
--the car owner who knows more than the mechanic --the self-diagnosing patient --the myriad lawyers on Slashdot
This perception has nothing to with the actual attitude of the person doing the talking.
A lot of people think that dangling their money in front of me makes them my boss. A lot of people are wrong. If they want my services, they can get out of my way and let me work; otherwise, they can find some other whipping-boy.
Trying to teach someone who doesn't want to learn is sometimes perceived in itself as hostility. Viz.:
--the car owner who knows more than the mechanic --the self-diagnosing patient --the myriad lawyers on Slashdot
This perception has nothing to with the actual attitude of the person doing the talking.
A lot of people think that dangling their money in front of me makes them my boss. A lot of people are wrong. If they want my services, they can get out of my way and let me work; otherwise, they can find some other whipping-boy.
You can always say no to the money Anonymous Gus3. If the clients expectations are unacceptable, don't take the business.
Of the scenarios you mention, none have anything to do with trying to teach someone, one is a service provided, the mechanic doesn't teach the person anything since the mechanic is not doing something the person would do in the normal everyday usage of a car, two can be handled by a doctor professionally, and three is just nonsense.
Of the scenarios you mention, none have anything to do with trying to teach someone, one is a service provided, the mechanic doesn't teach the person anything since the mechanic is not doing something the person would do in the normal everyday usage of a car, two can be handled by a doctor professionally, and three is just nonsense.
leave out the insults and name calling......
whooo boy! This is a reserved and restrained effort by ms TC...trust me on this one. If your sensibilities were bruised by this, I will not be the one to recommend some of her more pointed comments.
And who are we kidding here. It's political correctness all of the time in this country and there's no disguising it...you can call a lump of coal a diamond if you want, but when you pick it up, your hands are still filthy. The last thing a pc'er wants, at least here in Austin, is what they advocate identified as PC...it scares them to death...it pulls the covers right off of them.
PC is going to be the downfall of this nation...along with the whiny crybabies TC so astutely points out.
Other than that, I really don't have much of an opinion on the subject.
h
whooo boy! This is a reserved and restrained effort by ms TC...trust me on this one. If your sensibilities were bruised by this, I will not be the one to recommend some of her more pointed comments.
And who are we kidding here. It's political correctness all of the time in this country and there's no disguising it...you can call a lump of coal a diamond if you want, but when you pick it up, your hands are still filthy. The last thing a pc'er wants, at least here in Austin, is what they advocate identified as PC...it scares them to death...it pulls the covers right off of them.
PC is going to be the downfall of this nation...along with the whiny crybabies TC so astutely points out.
Other than that, I really don't have much of an opinion on the subject.
h
"PC is going to be the downfall of this nation...along with the whiny crybabies TC so astutely points out."
It's also the fear of thinking for one's own self. A good portion of the problem does stem from the public indoctrination (school) system. No Left Behind in this country has also been labeled "No One Gets Ahead." Another issue is less parental involvement in the lives of their children. They expect TV or something else to do the parenting for them (not always the case, but common nonetheless).
Here's an assignment just for fun...
1.) Watch Idiocracy (rent it if you have to...). That movie alone may open your eyes.
2.) Compare the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto to the American Constitution AND what currently exists in that same country today.
That may give a few more ideas as to where the blocks are coming from in addition to how to overcome those blocks. If people can't master technology, others can use that technology to control them.
It's also the fear of thinking for one's own self. A good portion of the problem does stem from the public indoctrination (school) system. No Left Behind in this country has also been labeled "No One Gets Ahead." Another issue is less parental involvement in the lives of their children. They expect TV or something else to do the parenting for them (not always the case, but common nonetheless).
Here's an assignment just for fun...
1.) Watch Idiocracy (rent it if you have to...). That movie alone may open your eyes.
2.) Compare the 10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto to the American Constitution AND what currently exists in that same country today.
That may give a few more ideas as to where the blocks are coming from in addition to how to overcome those blocks. If people can't master technology, others can use that technology to control them.
Quoting:Watch Idiocracy (rent it if you have to...). That movie alone may open your eyes.
Awesome Movie!!
Too Funny!!
Home schooled three, ones a lawyer :( Ones a nurse :)
And one is a game playing slacker °_°
Most of their pre-teen life there was no or limited TV. Yeah, they read.
Okay, lets put helios in charge of education. TC can be our PR person. Bob_R will do commerce azerthoth, I guess he should build snowmen? Scott, please take notes. The rest of you mill around smartly.
But all seriousness aside, WTF happened? ameriKa went from hero to hated in 30 years. Is that a record? Can Linux save us? No, Linux cannot save us but the kind of people that do Linux CAN save us!
Okay, lets put helios in charge of education. TC can be our PR person. Bob_R will do commerce azerthoth, I guess he should build snowmen? Scott, please take notes. The rest of you mill around smartly.
But all seriousness aside, WTF happened? ameriKa went from hero to hated in 30 years. Is that a record? Can Linux save us? No, Linux cannot save us but the kind of people that do Linux CAN save us!
heh, thanks colonel.
and #nixedreport
and #nixedreport
Quoting: Political Correctness is based on the assumption that you can pick up a turd by the clean end.
Morons shouldn't own computers!
G'day prof tuxchick,
-many thanks for Your splendid rant -UncleDave has been venting his spleen on this topic every sunday for years... --> this is from a fan of SoundBytes.org, ' the longest running computer show in the known universe', a compilation of their segment,'Uncle Dave's Story Hour'
'Alright kiddies, it's that time once again...'
http://udsh.net/udsh_071223.mp3
cheers, dar dobs
G'day prof tuxchick,
-many thanks for Your splendid rant -UncleDave has been venting his spleen on this topic every sunday for years... --> this is from a fan of SoundBytes.org, ' the longest running computer show in the known universe', a compilation of their segment,'Uncle Dave's Story Hour'
'Alright kiddies, it's that time once again...'
http://udsh.net/udsh_071223.mp3
cheers, dar dobs
"This damned guitar was tuned when I bought it"
Ahh yessss..... :)
Ahh yessss..... :)
> But all seriousness aside, WTF happened? ameriKa went from hero to hated in 30 years.
Oh boy, I could answer this. Really I could. But I don't want TC and Sander to get mad at me again!
Oh boy, I could answer this. Really I could. But I don't want TC and Sander to get mad at me again!
That's why the LXer forums have a private message system. And why there's e-mail :-)
Did I mention that I did first-line tech support for Apple back around the launch of System 7?
"What do mean! Of course it's plugged in! Do you think I'm stupid?"
"No sir, just starting at the biginning so nothing is missed. Can you verify that the machine is plugged in?"
"It's under my desk hold on... {censored}" click.
"What do mean! Of course it's plugged in! Do you think I'm stupid?"
"No sir, just starting at the biginning so nothing is missed. Can you verify that the machine is plugged in?"
"It's under my desk hold on... {censored}" click.
I guess a lot of people suffer from the 'Everything is already discussed, written and invented; and what difference do I make anyway?' syndrome.
Only listening to people who did actually learn stuff and not contemplating it for yourself works remarkably well these days. Also anxiety about all kind of things that might go wrong - and the laws coming with the anxiety - prevent people from experimenting. I always see this when people new to a computer start using it: They are so afraid to mess up things, they are too anxious to try out new things, which is why they refuse to learn new things. Telling them how to change the configuration on their PC is like telling them the best way to perform a somersault during bungee jumping.
Also, with all the complex choices people have to make today which force them to learn new things, they might be tired of learning. If you have to choose car insurance, you have to 'learn' and find out about the rules etc, if you buy a house you have to learn how mortgage works, if you buy a new computer you have to find out what all these terms mean and learn about specs, if you go on holidays to a country where a language is spoken you have to learn a few words in that language, if you want to drive you have to learn the traffic rules, you have to learn how the video recorder works, and on and on and on. I had health insurance from the state for a while, and didn't have to care about it, it just worked; no reason to worry. OK, maybe the insurance terms weren't all those well, and people who were privately insured were helped quicker and better, but I didn't have to read any terms. Than, 'state health insurance' was abolished, and I had to learn because I had to choose a new insurance from over 20 possible companies who offered at least 5 different insurances. I spent hours trying to compare terms etc., just to be sure I didn't end up paying too much or with bad insurance. Sitting in front of the TV and ordering fastfood doesn't require learning and is a nice way to pass time after you read about 'insurance terms' for two hours. It requires less energy than trying to learn Chinese after these two hours; and what you just learned about insurance can be processed by the brain.
In the past there were no car insuranes, mortgages, computers, video recorders, traffic rules and most people didn't have money to go on holiday. Therefore, in the past it was easier to choose for yourself what you wanted to learn and what not. Nowadays, to make all the choices someone has to make in a 'free market world' you are just forced to learn. The more one can choose, the more one has to learn. Compare installing Gentoo (the 'free market model') to installing Ubuntu.
Sometimes the free market works, sometimes it doesn't, but this isn't the place to discuss. Fact is, the more free the market becomes, the more choices people have to make, the more they are forced to learn, and the more they become tired of learning.
Personally, I believe people who live in a very regulated society where choices are pre-made for them can easier learn a lot more about a certain topic, because their mind isn't filled with mortgage terms, health insurance terms, how to choose a new car or video recorder and so on.
As an example: If I had used Ubuntu insead of Gentoo, I wouldn't have been forced to learn all kind of problems the Gentoo-choices raise (the more choices, the more possible combinations, the more that can go wrong), and instead I could have learned how to make animations using GIMP or SynFig, play the guitar or learn Chinese. Now, however since I was forced to learn how to 'fix' my EVMS system which I had chosen myself but had messed up, I spent a lot of time trying to learn how to fix it. After all this forum reading about EVMS I'm too tired to learn GIMP.
That must be why the OLPC doesn't come with Gentoo but a very simple pre-made desktop: If those children had to learn Gentoo they would be too tired and lack time to learn language and arithmetic.
Only listening to people who did actually learn stuff and not contemplating it for yourself works remarkably well these days. Also anxiety about all kind of things that might go wrong - and the laws coming with the anxiety - prevent people from experimenting. I always see this when people new to a computer start using it: They are so afraid to mess up things, they are too anxious to try out new things, which is why they refuse to learn new things. Telling them how to change the configuration on their PC is like telling them the best way to perform a somersault during bungee jumping.
Also, with all the complex choices people have to make today which force them to learn new things, they might be tired of learning. If you have to choose car insurance, you have to 'learn' and find out about the rules etc, if you buy a house you have to learn how mortgage works, if you buy a new computer you have to find out what all these terms mean and learn about specs, if you go on holidays to a country where a language is spoken you have to learn a few words in that language, if you want to drive you have to learn the traffic rules, you have to learn how the video recorder works, and on and on and on. I had health insurance from the state for a while, and didn't have to care about it, it just worked; no reason to worry. OK, maybe the insurance terms weren't all those well, and people who were privately insured were helped quicker and better, but I didn't have to read any terms. Than, 'state health insurance' was abolished, and I had to learn because I had to choose a new insurance from over 20 possible companies who offered at least 5 different insurances. I spent hours trying to compare terms etc., just to be sure I didn't end up paying too much or with bad insurance. Sitting in front of the TV and ordering fastfood doesn't require learning and is a nice way to pass time after you read about 'insurance terms' for two hours. It requires less energy than trying to learn Chinese after these two hours; and what you just learned about insurance can be processed by the brain.
In the past there were no car insuranes, mortgages, computers, video recorders, traffic rules and most people didn't have money to go on holiday. Therefore, in the past it was easier to choose for yourself what you wanted to learn and what not. Nowadays, to make all the choices someone has to make in a 'free market world' you are just forced to learn. The more one can choose, the more one has to learn. Compare installing Gentoo (the 'free market model') to installing Ubuntu.
Sometimes the free market works, sometimes it doesn't, but this isn't the place to discuss. Fact is, the more free the market becomes, the more choices people have to make, the more they are forced to learn, and the more they become tired of learning.
Personally, I believe people who live in a very regulated society where choices are pre-made for them can easier learn a lot more about a certain topic, because their mind isn't filled with mortgage terms, health insurance terms, how to choose a new car or video recorder and so on.
As an example: If I had used Ubuntu insead of Gentoo, I wouldn't have been forced to learn all kind of problems the Gentoo-choices raise (the more choices, the more possible combinations, the more that can go wrong), and instead I could have learned how to make animations using GIMP or SynFig, play the guitar or learn Chinese. Now, however since I was forced to learn how to 'fix' my EVMS system which I had chosen myself but had messed up, I spent a lot of time trying to learn how to fix it. After all this forum reading about EVMS I'm too tired to learn GIMP.
That must be why the OLPC doesn't come with Gentoo but a very simple pre-made desktop: If those children had to learn Gentoo they would be too tired and lack time to learn language and arithmetic.
Quoting:"if you buy a house you have to learn how mortgage works"
This is a very important thing, that many people over the last few years overlooked when purchasing their houses.(At least here in America) Foreclosures are at an all time high and our local news station did an interview of some people who were going through the foreclosure process and they said they don't know what happened. They bought a really expensive home with one of those loans that has a really low introductory rate for the first few years, then the rate jumps up. So even though the couldn't really afford the home, they could afford the payments at the low rate, but as always happens interest rates went up then they could not afford their payments anymore.
It seems if they could have spent some time learning what they were getting into they could have saved themselves some aggravation, humiliation, and losing their home.
It is strange that otherwise intelligent people seem stupid when it comes to learning something that is just a bit different from what they are used to. At least there is hope, Linux usage is growing, and I don't think it's just because you can get it for free.
This Gives Me an Idea.....
I read the entire article. It was timely of me to do so since I am doing a bit of a project myself. I am learning how to do a re-master of PCLOS for the fun of it, but I want to get something out of it too: mainly knowledge that can be applied to help other people learn how to operate a computer that is not laden with Microsoft software. ;)
I want some ideas from you concerning the interface (and suggesting that a switch be made to GNOME will not count.... lol... I'm sticking to the current interface, KDE, for the time being). What applications would you recommend be installed for a new user? How should the whole thing look? If tutorials are made, what format should they be in, and should there be tutorials for general operation, or for all the aps that are going to be used?
I'd like some input at this point, even though I have already made a re-master of sorts. I still have more to learn on getting it right (i.e. how to get rid of the "user" user account on first boot after installation of the new master and getting the blasted desktop shortcut icons to stay in the same friggin' place). I am doing all of this inside of Virtual Box, and I may be doing multiple editions targeted at different users. The question is, should I make multiple re-masters that target different audiences or just one comprehensive re-master. I would prefer that it be a CD instead of a DVD.
I want some ideas from you concerning the interface (and suggesting that a switch be made to GNOME will not count.... lol... I'm sticking to the current interface, KDE, for the time being). What applications would you recommend be installed for a new user? How should the whole thing look? If tutorials are made, what format should they be in, and should there be tutorials for general operation, or for all the aps that are going to be used?
I'd like some input at this point, even though I have already made a re-master of sorts. I still have more to learn on getting it right (i.e. how to get rid of the "user" user account on first boot after installation of the new master and getting the blasted desktop shortcut icons to stay in the same friggin' place). I am doing all of this inside of Virtual Box, and I may be doing multiple editions targeted at different users. The question is, should I make multiple re-masters that target different audiences or just one comprehensive re-master. I would prefer that it be a CD instead of a DVD.
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Unlike Microsoft aplications, where the user has no choice but to take the whole enchilada, Linux can be truly tailored for the type of people you describe.
So why not work on Unblocking those Linux Blockheads who insist that newbies learn driving Linux with a triple semi rig instead of an entry-level car like a Chevy Aveo or a Honda Fit, guiding a few of them to construct such a beginners version of Debian?
The nicest thing about Linux is that, as the Blockhead unblocks, apget can gradually turn that Aveo or Fit into the vehicle of their choice but leaving those triples to the geeks.
Just think how gratifying 2008 will be if you become part of that simple Debian movement!
Henry Keultjes Mansfield Ohio USA