Red Hat Drinks the Microsoft Kool-Aid
Tim Burke of Red Hat wrote a masterful apologetic for Microsoft's strong-arming and takeover of the most basic operation of a computer-- starting it up. Executive summary: We are in this 100% with our good friends in Redmond. |
Comments (124)
Way, way, way off base.
32 earlier comments in the full thread.
I suspect that is the main reason Red Hat did what they did. They cannot afford to be locked out of the desktop. Not at all.
It all started to make sense. Read this new article which has been posted on Lxer very recently.
MS is using "Divide & Conquer" to isolate and fight Red Hat.
You are right about flaming Canonical. It is the one betraying the community. Personally, I never considered Canonical to be part of the Linux community. They always were in it for the advancement of its own business.
Quoting:I suspect that is the main reason Red Hat did what they did. They cannot afford to be locked out of the desktop. Not at all.All the more reason to get into the OEM business. If they can create their own BIOS/EFI (or substitute for same), they can demonstrate that Microsoft doesn't own the world. Then UEFI would be not long for this world.
Quoting:All the more reason to get into the OEM business.
Excellent point, especially at this time. Best solution for all the problems that MS has been creating with the help of lackey OEMs, including this latest UEFI shenanigan.
I always advocated for Canonical/Ubuntu to do that and I never considered Red Hat since they pretty much abandoned the personal computer to concentrate on corporate business. It was bad decision then and it is still bad decision now to keep out of the PC and hand held devices business.
Red Hat has a much better chance of succeeding since they now have all the engineering and financial resources to do that. It might not be lucrative at first, but it will grow.
Quoting: Does anyone feel qualified to comment on the fact that Red Hat's official missives are likely to be aimed at as much at stock traders / investment analyst types as at technical types, and how that might affect the tone and purpose of Red Hat's public statements on such an issue?
You're doubtless right. But was it necessary to cheerlead Microsoft and snark at the Secure Boot critics? That's what I'm objecting to. The announcement could easily have been neutral, instead of rank codswallop.
It wouldn't be as directly lucrative as the Win 8 sticker/logo program, but I'm sure that it could be marketed as a sign of superior quality -- that some bit of hardware can be relied on, regardless of the OS you choose to run.
Love all of you btw!
Scott
My short chat with their floor manager led me to believe that they are all indeed running Red Hat Linux world-wide.
That would seem to conflict with any opinion that Red Hat is not in the desktop business. It may not represent their core but it obviously is an important part of their whole.
Quoting:That location alone has just over 300 work stations active in house . Every one of them are running Red Hat 6 Enterprise on the desktop. I don't know about their other locations but given the stature and success of this business, if every one of them are running Red Hat, it represents a substantial account for Red Hat support.Red Hat has customers with thousands or tens of thousands of workstations/desktops running RHEL.
Quoting:That would seem to conflict with any opinion that Red Hat is not in the desktop business. It may not represent their core but it obviously is an important part of their whole.Exactly.
Quoting:We welcome you to join the international Red Hat Society -- a global Sisterhood on a mission to give all women permission to step out of the demands of life and step into a world of giggles, Sisterhood and fun! Our Queens and Members are made up of Red Hatters (those over 50) and Pink Hatters (those under 50).
Looks like a par-TAY!!!
great.
g-r-r-r-o-w-l!
Quoting:I always advocated for Canonical/Ubuntu to do that and I never considered Red Hat since they pretty much abandoned the personal computer to concentrate on corporate business. It was bad decision then and it is still bad decision now to keep out of the PC and hand held devices business.
Red Hat has a much better chance of succeeding since they now have all the engineering and financial resources to do that.
OTOH from another above commentator's blogpost entitled 'News flash: Sky NOT falling' and found at http://larrythefreesoftwareguy.wordpress.com/2012/06/08/news-flash-sky-not-falling/
Quoting:No one does more for Linux and FOSS across the board — developing software and pushing it upstream, for starters — than Red Hat and Fedora. They do it pretty much thanklessly and while much of their efforts have made Red Hat a billion-dollar entity, they give back substantially to the FOSS community. Essentially calling Microsoft’s bluff on UEFI with this particular action is not capitulation, it’s just yet another thing Fedora and Red Hat are currently doing in order for people to be able to use UEFI-based hardware going forward.
According to the veracity of this blog quote, Red Hat is hardly abandoning "the personal computer [in order] to concentrate on corporate business" through at the very least, their developing software and their pushing such software upstream.
Insofar as Fedora remains Red Hat's "Community" (non-corporate) desktop distro, the benefits of the parent company's purchase of UEFI keys would likely and eventually trickle down to Fedora users who still may choose to keep UEFI secure boot activated.
Quoting:According to the veracity of this blog quote, Red Hat is hardly abandoning "the personal computer [in order] to concentrate on corporate business" through at the very least, their developing software and their pushing such software upstream.
No one can deny the scale or the quality of Red Hat's contributions to FOSS. I certainly mentioned that in some of my comments in different threads.
But in terms of abandoning the Personal Desktop (Individual not corporate), the fact is, Red Hat did initially but gradually started to come back when Ubuntu was getting the dominate FOSS Distro. Not sure what was there reasoning, but chances are due to limited resources or the desktop not as lucrative as the server market.
If RH had paid more attention and escalated its efforts as much as or even close to what it did for its Linux server Distro, Ubuntu wouldn't have had the chance of becoming as popular as it did. Red Hat realized that and consequently made the move to pay more attention to the desktop before it was too late.
OK, But What Should They Do?
33 earlier comments in the full thread.
They claim to have a done a full security code audit on the code back in the XP days. Then some months later they found a security hole that went all the way back to Windows 3.11.
From memory, which is somewhat faulty anymore, they've claimed to have done a complete rewrite with security in mind at least 3 times now. The only time they came close was with Vista. How did that work out?
Quoting:In the the Linux world "complete rewrite" means throwing away old code and starting over. In Windowsland it means piling new code on top of the old code.Given what has happened with "complete rewrites" in KDE and GNOME recently, I'm not sure I'd consider that a bragging point.
As I understand it:
0) If this Secure Boot stuff is too much trouble, one can (on traditional x86-based PCs) turn off "Secure Boot" mode.
1) the UEFI motherboard, in Secure Boot mode, verifies the boot-loader against a (the?) key in the firmware -- if the boot-loader doesn't pass, Game Over
2) the signed, verified boot-loader verifies the kernel -- if the kernel doesn't pass, Game Over
3) the kernel verifies drivers, modules, etc, are signed with a valid (ie. recognized) key -- if these don't pass, Game Over.
SO: Fedora is breaking (2) down into a two step process. The boot loader is divided into a MS-key signed "shim" that hands off to a Fedora-signed "full" GRUB boot-loader. This full boot-loader will recognize any keys you manage to load into the firmware (free, if the motherboard allows you to manage UEFI Secure Boot keys), or a shim you've compiled (with Fedora supplied tools) and signed yourself (if you've paid $99 for access to the MX/Verizon signing service -- you're basically jumping through the exact same hoops that Fedora does, to make their kernel "MS Boot"-compatible).
FINAL RESULT: "Bad Guys" can't install roots kits that alter or swap out the trusted kernel and/or the trusted boot-loader -- more precisely, they can, but they won't boot.
- - - - + - - - - + - - - - + - - - - -
Question #1: If I understand this correctly, the entire "Secure Boot" concept is utterly dependent on the UEFI/BIOS being inaccessible from the OS -- (I have re-flashed a BIOS, and I recall it was a "special" process that ran off a specially created floppy). Why is the inaccessible? Is this intrinsic to the hardware design? is it actually realistic to depend on this?
Question #2: How difficult will it be to create FOSS tools for accessing and modifying UEFI firmware and keys? (is there some reason to believe these will be immutably burned-in (as I assume TiVo does it, and ARM Win8 will do it) or would this be so stupid that not even OEMs will do it that way).?
http://www.uefi.org/about/
What interested me most was the second last Q/A paragraph which I duplicate below:
Q: Does UEFI increase security risks from viruses and the like? A: Any firmware implementation has to take care to address security. UEFI does not change that for better or worse.
So......what on earth are we playing at here. Microsoft is telling us that UEFI will dramatically improve security, but in fact, the UEFI specs appear to be neutral with respect to security. If I read things correctly, it is not UEFI as such but the Microsoft firmware version that is the problem ?? I'd like some comments on this one as it's getting a bit too deep for me.....software engineer I am not !!!!!!!
OK. I haven't read the spec, and this is purely my understand from reading what others have written, but others will undoubtedly correct me if I'm wrong.
UEFI allows for a secure boot option. This may be turned on or off by default, at the manufacturers discretion.
If the secure boot option is enabled, the boot loader and kernel (including the modules loaded at boot time) must be signed with a key which matches the key stored in firmware. At the manufacturer's option, this key may be preloaded or supplied by the user.
The concern is that manufacturers will choose to enable secure boot and force you to use the preloaded key (which will be for Windows, of course) with no other option. That is, they will not allow you to either disable secure boot or supply your own key.
If they allow you to turn of the secure boot option, then all is well for the average user, as any distro can be installed and work. If they allow you to provide your own key, then the dsitro can provide a key at install time and walk you through installing it. If they do neither, and the distro doesn't pay for Microsoft's key, you can't boot your installation.
And no, it doesn't protect against viruses much at all. It does protect (in theory) against rootkits, but that's a fairly small subset of viruses (though a bothersome one, I've had to remove a number of TDSS infections and other variants over the past 18 months). As someone else has pointed out, and my understanding here is really shaky, it's theoretically possible for a virus to infect the hypervisor on the machine, and in that case all bets are off, as even the UEFi check can be spoofed.
Does that answer your questions?
(And I wouldn't be surprised if Win 8 has more than its usual share of security issues, simply because of the awkward cobbling together of the new Metro environment with the legacy one.)
(and considering Microsoft's history, there are grounds to doubt this problem is an "unforeseen consequence" or free of covert encouragement)
Quoting:(is there some reason to believe these will be immutably burned-in (as I assume TiVo does it, and ARM Win8 will do it) or would this be so stupid that not even OEMs will do it that way).?
Quoting:If I read things correctly, it is not UEFI as such but the Microsoft firmware version that is the problem
That is it, these two statements should clarify everything.
UEFI doesn't enhance system security and the only think it does is implement a scheme very similar to Tivo's. It is nothing but Tivoization controlled by MS & company.
The board of directors are all commercial companies and there is no representative of FOSS like there is one for MS & Apple. That speaks volume.
In the members list, Canonical is a contributor & Red Hat just have a "Center of Information Architecture Research"
The UEFi is nothing but a scheme, a ploy to contain and control FOSS.
I am just waiting to hear what RMS is going to say about this whole shenanigan.
1. UEFI of itself is neutral with respect to virus protection, so the guff pumped out by Redmond and others is simply mischief making in order to fool the consumers. It is possible that the certification process might block root kits at first.....I give it 30 days.
2. The problem is the Firmware also included at the behest of Microsoft, and that is designed to limit the use of any computer (that has this Microsoft tampered UEFI) to being a Windows locked machine.......UNLESS........
3. UNLESS, the OEM's provide a mechanism to turn the Microsoft firmware off.
4. I now consider the Microsoft version of UEFI a very deliberate attempt to smash FOSS once and for all or if not, then to control it to Microsoft's satisfaction.
At the moment, the best simple hope on the horizon is consumer resistance and I think it will come from the business community. However, when you look at the above facts, I begin to wonder if there might just be a monopoly matter in the legal circles, because item 2 above spells out the Redmond intentions (as I see them) very clearly. Unless this corruption of UEFI by Microsoft is stopped, or the switch is included, then all computers apart from the Apple brand, might just as well be shipped as Microsoft branded devices.....unless a way is provided to reflash the bios chip and I am not sure we know about that as yet.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/linus-torvalds-on-wind...
Ultimately, it looks like he agrees with my concept that hacking of the certified UEFI is going to occur and very quickly. So, pointless ?
I'm greatly with tuxchick and Fettoosh on this one too. While UEFI hacking will occur quickly enough, there IS a good point to mention this fact. As much short-sighted sense as RedHat and now Canonical had in making the dirty deal with Macro$uck$, they can absolutely EXPECT to suffer some sort of negative consequences in the long-run. I just don't think these CURRENTLY large players shoulda rushed into this as quickly as they did. Both these large players DID drink the pleasnt-tasting poison from the evermore desperate M$.
Of course you logically disagree with this as well as well as with some of Fettoosh's major points above. So be it....
2c
Quoting:I don't particularly like what RedHat has done, but my hard pragmatic view would be that RedHat is doing the right thing by its stockholders, the company survival and most importantly, its customers.
If you follow my series of posts down, you will see that Fettoosh has actually used some of my posts to give what he says is an ideal summary of the situation. I can see exactly why RedHat has moved, and I explained why in one of my posts, but personally, I don't like it much at all. I thought I had made that pretty clear from the start.
You wrote: "Ultimately, it looks like he agrees with my concept that hacking of the certified UEFI is going to occur and very quickly. So, pointless ?"
I thought I had just made it clear that the quick-enough but inevitable hacking of UEFI ISN'T pointless and IS well-worth emphasizing. THIS is what you seemed to disagree with in your question rather than liking or not liking Red Hat & Canonical's logical need to drink the M$ Kool-Aid. At least that's my own perception of this. Capiche?
-fb
So simple it's
john
What planet are you living on again?
2c
2c
From someone still living on Planet Earth (but TG minimally in the M$ and Red Hat sphere of influence!) waiting, waiting, almost there ......
Right now the blame belongs squarely on Microsoft and the U.S. government for backing them. Here is a company which has proven it's dedication to FOSS over and over again, a company who employs more FOSS developers than any other, a company which has bought numerous proprietary software packages and opened them... Heaven forbid they should actually do what is clearly necessary to survive in the business environment that exists today. Nope, they should fall on the sword and go out of business, taking all those FOSS developers down with them if necessary.
I'm an apologist? It seems to me those who are attacking Red Hat are the ones who should be apologizing. Fewt got it right. He usually does.
Still waiting for f3wt to jump in with another name-calling or the rarely-busy caitlyn with another put-down.....
-fb
Microsoft owns Red Hat?
They are playing on people's lack of security knowledge and also playing towards the idea that users will be too stupid to set it up for themselves.
Red Hat == Scummy, backroom dealing, Microsoft stooge/co-conspirator.
At first I thought it was just the typical ignorance, but now I'm beginning to wonder...
(and before anyone goes off half-cocked with the inevitable accusations; I don't use RedHat, and I neither use nor like the Fedora project -- so there! Can we focus on rational discussion, please?)
Drinking the M$ Kool-Aid sure is a poor move that will soon enough lead to hacking UEFI who-knows-how-secure boot and probably loss of mindshare from most everyone OTHER than business large-enterprise customers!
2c
Quoting:Drinking the M$ Kool-Aid sure is a poor move that will soon enough lead to hacking UEFI who-knows-how-secure boot and probably loss of mindshare from most everyone OTHER than business large-enterprise customers!
OTOH, as other regular posters have expressed on different LXer threads, there are various facets to this same issue that may better balance out the antipathy directed to Red Hat. Among these facets are that what Red Hat and Ubuntu did were carried out of of necessity rather than malice, so that these Linux Server companies could remain competitive with one another and with Microsoft for "business large-enterprise customers". Another facet to this issue is the eventual plan that even non-Enterprise vendors and customers (e.g., on the Desktop) will benefit from these deals as long as patent-encumbering and trickle-down "hooks" are successfully avoided, and any such remaining hooks are distinctly unlike those of Novell's infamous Patent Deal.
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