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Dispelling the myths of Gentoo Linux, an honest review
I started my Linux journey in 1995 with a pile of "A" and "N" Slackware diskettes. It was a real thrill to run X-Windows on my 386 machine with 16MG of RAM. In 1997, when I was hired to work for Red Hat Software, Inc, I was brought kicking and screaming into the world of Red Hat. As the old adage goes, I stuck with what works. The nice thing about Red Hat is that it hides the complexity of Linux behind binary RPMS, but the downside to Red Hat is that it hides the complexity of Linux behind binary RPMS. Nevertheless it works, and I, like millions of others, have continued to use Red Hat through 2004. When Red Hat dropped Red Hat Linux in favor of Fedora, I switched to Fedora and continued to be happy with the software that came out of Raleigh.
A few weeks ago, however, I purchased an Opteron machine with the intention of playing with Linux on it, seeing what all the 64-bit fuss is about, and perhaps making it my new server. I sampled several AMD64-based distributions, including Gentoo 2004.0, and was delighted with what I found in this powerful distribution. I had purchased an ASUS SK8N motherboard, an AMD Opteron 142 processor, 2 gigabytes of DDR333 memory, and a 150G Serial ATA hard drive. The ASUS SK8N motherboard includes SATA onboard, and I couldn't resist the opportunity to test this new and improved hard disk standard. I purchased the case and cheap-o video card locally, at the only computer store I know of in small-town Kerrville, Texas.
The installationHaving previously downloaded and burned the Gentoo 2004.0 LiveCD for AMD64, I was ready for action. I inserted the CD into the drive and booted up the computer. Now, the installation of Gentoo 2004.0 is wildly different from other installation programs. It reminds me of Slackware from 1995, but a little less friendly, and no pile of diskettes. :) The installation is insanely different, and I absolutely loved it. This installation method is a breath of fresh air to me, and I think that those of you experienced Linuxers would also find it quite attractive. Let me describe the process for you:
The next step was to partition the disks, and I was happy to see my old and trusty friend fdisk was the recommended tool. Oddly, however, fdisk /dev/hda returned "Unable to open /dev/hda". After examining the output of dmesg, I discovered that the new SATA drives are accessible by /dev/sda instead of /dev/hda. Checking my kernel source revealed that, indeed, SATA is part of the SCSI system of the kernel. Having passed that obstacle, I was able to fdisk /dev/sda with no trouble. My disk is a 150G drive, and I chose a 32M partition for boot, 2G for swap, 30G for the system, and 130G for /dev/sda4 to contain my files. Now, at this point, I have to make a decision. Do I go through the long complete compile for which Gentoo is so famous? I was actually expecting that I would, since any alternative approach was unknown to me. Imagine my delight to learn that Gentoo includes what are called "stages", which are precompiled binaries that you can install in lieu of doing the compile yourself. You can choose to do one of three "stages". In the first stage, you compile everything yourself. In stage 2 you get more compiled binaries but you still compile some applications, and stage 3 appears to be a much more complete binary installation of the whole system. So, Gentoo's reputation as being a distribution that requires you to spend days (or weeks, months, years, as the jokes go) compiling is simply unearned. Nothing could be further from the truth - it can be a binary-only distribution, or a source-only distribution; it's your choice.
I chose to do every kind of installation available, to see the difference between them all. First I tried a stage 2 installation, which saved me from the bulk of the compilation process. Installing the system at this point was a simple untarring of the stage 2 file, and I was done. Not very exciting, but it does get the job done. Unsatisfied, I started at the beginning and did a stage 1 installation. This is the step that compiled GCC, glibc, and a variety of other necessary system applications. In the stage 1 installation, bootstrapping the system from scratch took 53 minutes. The next stage took 42 minutes. I was wondering if I'd ever see these famous month-long compiles. Having passed all three stages in an afternoon, I was ready to move on to compiling my kernel. Gentoo includes a nice utility called 'genkernel' which, should you choose to use it, compiles the kernel for you (yes, I've gotten lazy over the years). The .config file is the same that was used to build the LiveCD, so it'll support everything imaginable (and takes quite a long time to build. At least a couple minutes on my Opteron). The kernel compilation was joyfully easy and quick. Next up, setting up the system. Before proceeding, you will want to install your favorite text editor. For me, 'emerge vim' and I was ready to go. The default editor 'nano' (some sort of pico clone) that comes installed on the LiveCD is fine for newbies, but vi it ain't. There are several files that you'll be editing by hand, including creating your own /etc/fstab and /boot/grub/grub.conf by hand, so you'll want to be comfortable in your editor. In addition to some sundry and easy steps that are outlined in the handbook, there are some steps here that separate the men from the boys. This part of the installation is the most involved - you have to do a lot of the work yourself, and this is the area in which I believe Gentoo could improve the most. Really, manually creating files like fstab is fine if you've been sysadmining Linux for years, but for newer folks, it just isn't acceptable. I appreciate the power and control that Gentoo gives me, but there is no good reason to have to create your own grub.conf and fstab.
The Smoke TestHaving created my grub.conf and fstab, I held my breath and rebooted the box. Unfortunately, the bootup process failed as it was unable to load the Promise SATA driver, and thus I was not able to mount my filesystems. In other distributions, at this point you'd be best served just starting from the beginning, but thankfully, recovering with Gentoo is easy. I just booted back up with the LiveCD, remounted my system partitions, and went back to work on the kernel. This time I modified /usr/share/genkernel/x86_64/kernel-config-2.6 and changed CONFIG_SCSI_SATA_PROMISE from "m" to "y". While I was in there, I disabled some things that I won't need, like USB, IEEE1394, etc. I re-ran genkernel, rebooted, and this time my system booted with no problems.
Thoughts on the booted distributionThe first thing you notice about the system is its emptiness. The bareness of the distribution is absolutely thrilling to minimalists who don't prefer the kitchen-sink approach to Linux distributions. As you need things, you install them with a single command. If a program has dependencies, those dependencies are automatically downloaded and built along with the application you requested. When I needed to download something, and 'ftp' returned 'command not found', I ran 'emerge ftp' and less than 60 seconds later I had an ftp client. This is how everything works on Gentoo and I love it.So, besides the ease of use, the main advantage of Gentoo is the control it gives you over the binaries you produce and run. Before beginning any compile, you can customize the compile through an /etc/make.conf file, as well as "on-the-fly" environment variables from the shell. You can tell it to avoid SSL, QT, and GTK+ libraries, run GCC with -O2 (or -O3, etc), and so forth. Just setup your make.conf with exactly the flags that you desire, and everything you build will be compiled with those preferences. It's a real joy to know that the binaries you have on your system were compiled by you with exactly the libraries you wanted and the optimization flags you requested. Additionally, as with most other distributions, handling updates is simple. When the vendor releases a security alert or bugfix update, all you have to do is run 'emerge sync' to download the list of updated software packages, and then 'emerge packagename' to update your package. It's as simple as that.
ConclusionThe customization and optimization does make a difference and gives you fine-tuned control over the final product. If you rely on a lot of third-party applications, however, you may be best served sticking with Red Hat Enterprise Linux or Fedora, but if all you want is a solid Linux system to operate your standard internet enabled services like LAMP, you can't do better than Gentoo Linux. I have not yet tried Gentoo out as a desktop, so currently I am only recommending it for server use. I hope in the next few weeks (or months) I will try X and see how I like it. I expect to be pleased.
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Comments (60)
Let me see...
5 earlier comments in the full thread.
That's not really the point, ralsina. With Gentoo, you really *must* learn about how the system works. If you don't, you'll have many problems. Especially if you want to do stuff on a laptop, like CPUFreq, ACPI, etc. I found working with Gentoo that my understanding of my system increased significantly.
If you don't want to understand your system, then use Fedora or SuSE. I still use SuSE on my server, and for the quick and easy, I love it. But I wanted to learn more, so I took on Gentoo. There have been times I was very tempted to ditch it and install SuSE, but in the end, I got what I wanted.
So, the purpose with Gentoo is to understand more about your computer and how it works, optimizing it along with way. If you don't want to do that, then you should use another distro. All distros have their niche.
If you don't want to understand your system, then use Fedora or SuSE. I still use SuSE on my server, and for the quick and easy, I love it. But I wanted to learn more, so I took on Gentoo. There have been times I was very tempted to ditch it and install SuSE, but in the end, I got what I wanted.
So, the purpose with Gentoo is to understand more about your computer and how it works, optimizing it along with way. If you don't want to do that, then you should use another distro. All distros have their niche.
tizzyd: Again, you can learn that using any distro. The ACPI and CPUFreq software used in Gentoo is the same as in every other Linux distribution.
I am getting from your post the idea that things like that, in Gentoo, don't work until you learn about them. And that you like Gentoo because it made you learn about them.
Call me crazy, but if you really wanted to learn about that stuff, you can do it just as well on any other distribution. So that's not really a very reasonable pro-gentoo point.
I mean, it sounds like "stuff does't work on gentoo, so you leanr how to fix it, and that's good". That's weird to me.
I am getting from your post the idea that things like that, in Gentoo, don't work until you learn about them. And that you like Gentoo because it made you learn about them.
Call me crazy, but if you really wanted to learn about that stuff, you can do it just as well on any other distribution. So that's not really a very reasonable pro-gentoo point.
I mean, it sounds like "stuff does't work on gentoo, so you leanr how to fix it, and that's good". That's weird to me.
ralsina: I have used mandrake, slackware, debian, and I recently installed gentoo. I agree with you about learning how the distros work, I learned how a distro worked using mandrake. They all have the same software. However, conditional dependencies through USE flags is what sets gentoo apart from the rest. With mandrake, when you install a package all of that package's dependencies get installed as well, but the creators of the package decided what the dependencies should be. With gentoo, you have the option of deciding what optional dependencies you want to have automatically installed. This is about the only thing I see as an advantage over debian unstable. If you can do something similar with another distro please let me know. I don't really see the compilation as a big deal because I don't take advantage of it (I don't really try out compiler flags), but others might.
I've spent about 30 hours installing and using Gentoo on two machines and currently don't use it on either. I absolutely love several aspects of Gentoo but there are currently way too many problems one needs to solve just to get stable desktop going.
I love emerge, USE flags, the innovative init system, and the ability to use bleeding edge applications.
The reason I don't actively use Gentoo is that compiling from source is very fragile. To get KDE going from source, one needs to ebuild over 100 packages and several of the ebuilds will fail to compile. You then need to debug the ebuild. Fortunately, I could always find a fix on the Gentoo forums which is another one of Gentoo's strengths. The thing that really bothered me is that these known fixes to broken ebuilds didn't get incorporated into newer ebuilds! I would see newer versions of broken ebuilds that wouldn't incorporate the fixes. I didn't get the sense that Gentoo was getting better. That is why I gave up on Gentoo in spite of its really cool features. I will try it again sometime.
The standard I use to judge any Linux distribution is Knoppix. Knoppix boots from CD and just works correctly. There is absolutely no excuse for any other Linux distribution to not work as well as Knoppix because its source is available for all to see.
I love emerge, USE flags, the innovative init system, and the ability to use bleeding edge applications.
The reason I don't actively use Gentoo is that compiling from source is very fragile. To get KDE going from source, one needs to ebuild over 100 packages and several of the ebuilds will fail to compile. You then need to debug the ebuild. Fortunately, I could always find a fix on the Gentoo forums which is another one of Gentoo's strengths. The thing that really bothered me is that these known fixes to broken ebuilds didn't get incorporated into newer ebuilds! I would see newer versions of broken ebuilds that wouldn't incorporate the fixes. I didn't get the sense that Gentoo was getting better. That is why I gave up on Gentoo in spite of its really cool features. I will try it again sometime.
The standard I use to judge any Linux distribution is Knoppix. Knoppix boots from CD and just works correctly. There is absolutely no excuse for any other Linux distribution to not work as well as Knoppix because its source is available for all to see.
mlite75: simple. Get the src.rpm, edit the configure flags in the build step, remove dependencies from the spec, rebuild. It is a bit harder than doing it in gentoo, though.
The Gentoo init is not innovative. It's just a standard SysV init, with a different rc script. The only remotely original thing in it is conditional startup of services and service startup parallelization which:
a) Is better done by some (real) init replacements
b) Means that when you flip-flop the network everything goes down and then back up. Which is usually completely unnecessary.
c) Only makes about 45 seconds of a difference on startup. And anyway, how often are you supposed to boot? So, it may save you, I don't know, 2 minutes a day?
If you really want to have a cool init, get one f the real parallelizing provides-based inits that are floating around.
The Gentoo init is not innovative. It's just a standard SysV init, with a different rc script. The only remotely original thing in it is conditional startup of services and service startup parallelization which:
a) Is better done by some (real) init replacements
b) Means that when you flip-flop the network everything goes down and then back up. Which is usually completely unnecessary.
c) Only makes about 45 seconds of a difference on startup. And anyway, how often are you supposed to boot? So, it may save you, I don't know, 2 minutes a day?
If you really want to have a cool init, get one f the real parallelizing provides-based inits that are floating around.
I am a debian sarge user who is considering trying out gentoo on my laptop. two questions I have:
1 - what is the difference (besides the fact that compiling is optional) between gentoo and LFS (Linux From Scratch)? Is build-it-yourself init, fstab, password, group and other config files optional or mandatory?
2 are there any resources for overlaying gentoo over debian without hosing my system royally? (yes /home is on a seperate partition).
Currently Debian Sarge is giving me some fits with reguards to the kernels. I installed it using knoppix (kernel-2.4.22-xfs), installed a few optional kernels 2.4.24, 2.6.3 and a self-compiled 2.6.4.
2.4.22-xfs cdrw works fine but no nvidia glx driver, stuck with nv driver 2.4.24 nvidia glx works but hdc=ide-scsi does not work thus cdrw does not work 2.6.3 and 2.6.4 do not boot. 2.6.3 is from the debian sarge archive.
I am hoping that gentoo will work better.
1 - what is the difference (besides the fact that compiling is optional) between gentoo and LFS (Linux From Scratch)? Is build-it-yourself init, fstab, password, group and other config files optional or mandatory?
2 are there any resources for overlaying gentoo over debian without hosing my system royally? (yes /home is on a seperate partition).
Currently Debian Sarge is giving me some fits with reguards to the kernels. I installed it using knoppix (kernel-2.4.22-xfs), installed a few optional kernels 2.4.24, 2.6.3 and a self-compiled 2.6.4.
2.4.22-xfs cdrw works fine but no nvidia glx driver, stuck with nv driver 2.4.24 nvidia glx works but hdc=ide-scsi does not work thus cdrw does not work 2.6.3 and 2.6.4 do not boot. 2.6.3 is from the debian sarge archive.
I am hoping that gentoo will work better.
Actually, I think Gentoo has its place and other distros have their place. I mean, frankly, ralsina, you don't just bash a distribution because of its way of doing things. I don't care if I have to edit fstab or grub.conf, as long as I get all my partitions with the correct options mounted at boot-time, restrictions by who can mount and with what uid it gets mounted, flags for different file-systems... etc. There's a lot of tweaking that is surely for _power_ users. Joe Average won't want to do this, but well, I want to, and if Gentoo get's this done painlessly, cool with me.
On the other hand, Gentoo isn't in any case _redundant_, as it seems you think so in saying other distros do the same. I personally prefer to configure my packages by hand, rather than having druids drakes, or w/e.. Yast, some apt-util, or this or that do it for me. I'm sorry if that's too old school or too troublesome for others, but haven't we all got a right to choose what we would like?
There are aspects of Gentoo I consider superior (IMHO) to other distribution's alternatives, like for example:
-Outstanding ports-style package management, with dependency checking/handling that (again, IMHO) is superior to debian's apt-get's, urpmi's, click'n'run (is that what Lindow's is called?)... etc.
-Unstable packages are masked cleanly with ~arch keyword which you can obviously pass by with environment variables, or hard masked with package.mask, which you can edit at will.
-On the fly: USE, CFLAGS, ACCEPT_KEYWORDS... etc, all env. vars that give you a working env. that's just a pleasure.
-Improving reverse-dependencies.
-It's extensible framework, which allows for nearly any improvement, and not only allows, but is the aim.
-Excelent documentation from the docs section on the website, absolutely a must for any Gentoo user, specially the docs about ebuilds, env.d, admin... etc.
-Friendly forums, with great user activity.
Of course some other distro(s) could have these but I'm yet to find them. Actually being a former Slackware user, then a Debian user, I've moved to Gentoo with nothing but satisfaction. From Slackware to Debian i gained in the package management, but coming to Gentoo I'm back home with the best of both worlds, and more.
If Gentoo is peculiar in this or that aspect, you're not forced nor asked to try it, there're sure many of us who prefer this method of working to others, and that's what it's all about, CHOICE.
Re: Koroshiya
Well, honestly, I don´t see where I have ever said Gentoo shouldn´t exist, or that everyone should abandon Gentoo, in fact, let me be clear: if you like Gentoo, by all means waste your time with it ;-)
I am, however, seriously peeved whenever a weakness (or something thst, at least to me, is an obvious weakness) is flaunted as a strength.
You even say "and if Gentoo get's this done painlessly [fstab configuration?], cool with me."
Gentoo makes it *harder* than any other distro. In fact, it can´t be done any harder, since Gentoo´s approach to fstab configuration seems to be "you need a fstab, go write one".
In no way does Gentoo make it painless, in fact, it seems to go out of its way to make it painful ;-)
Unstable packages are marked as such on every package management worth a damn. That´s par for the course.
Yes, the gentoo forums are busy. Usually with people who know what they talk about. However, not nearly as much as they think they do.
I was highly entertained by a thread about a linux booting description I wrote, which covered the usual SysV stuff.
When posted on osnews, a dozen gentoo users popped up critizicing it for not mentioning gentoo.
Then it was posted in the gentoo forums.
The first reply (and half a dozen followups) were about how "the gentoo way" was different and simpler and nicer.
About post 12, someone actually bothered mentioning that this *was* the gentoo way, they just had renamed the runlevels.
The docs about ebuilds.... considering on other distros you don´t NEED ebuilds, I suppose it´s good it´s documented ;-)
And sure, you have your choice, and I have mine. But since when is it wrong for me to say chosing Gentoo may not be all that smart? Is only uninformed choice real choice? I think not.
Well, honestly, I don´t see where I have ever said Gentoo shouldn´t exist, or that everyone should abandon Gentoo, in fact, let me be clear: if you like Gentoo, by all means waste your time with it ;-)
I am, however, seriously peeved whenever a weakness (or something thst, at least to me, is an obvious weakness) is flaunted as a strength.
You even say "and if Gentoo get's this done painlessly [fstab configuration?], cool with me."
Gentoo makes it *harder* than any other distro. In fact, it can´t be done any harder, since Gentoo´s approach to fstab configuration seems to be "you need a fstab, go write one".
In no way does Gentoo make it painless, in fact, it seems to go out of its way to make it painful ;-)
Unstable packages are marked as such on every package management worth a damn. That´s par for the course.
Yes, the gentoo forums are busy. Usually with people who know what they talk about. However, not nearly as much as they think they do.
I was highly entertained by a thread about a linux booting description I wrote, which covered the usual SysV stuff.
When posted on osnews, a dozen gentoo users popped up critizicing it for not mentioning gentoo.
Then it was posted in the gentoo forums.
The first reply (and half a dozen followups) were about how "the gentoo way" was different and simpler and nicer.
About post 12, someone actually bothered mentioning that this *was* the gentoo way, they just had renamed the runlevels.
The docs about ebuilds.... considering on other distros you don´t NEED ebuilds, I suppose it´s good it´s documented ;-)
And sure, you have your choice, and I have mine. But since when is it wrong for me to say chosing Gentoo may not be all that smart? Is only uninformed choice real choice? I think not.
There are those who read books and there are those who write them. There are those who use Linux and there are those who live Linux. It's in my blood. I like all distros for one reason or another. But I _prefer_ Gentoo, again - for one reason or another.
I fail to understand why it would upset someone else if I choose to spend more time and effort doing something I enjoy.
It is like saying "why write books when there are so many already - it is easier to just read a book than write one."
I prefer pineapple on my pizza too.
So anyway, it is just a preference. Just be happy _you_ do not have to use Gentoo, shrug it off and move on. Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment; and what fun this punishment it is! he he he
I fail to understand why it would upset someone else if I choose to spend more time and effort doing something I enjoy.
It is like saying "why write books when there are so many already - it is easier to just read a book than write one."
I prefer pineapple on my pizza too.
So anyway, it is just a preference. Just be happy _you_ do not have to use Gentoo, shrug it off and move on. Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment; and what fun this punishment it is! he he he
Re: ilovegentoo
Your post seems to assume I am somehow a casual Linux user, or something like that.
I have been using Linux since 1994. My first distro was Yggdrasil. I installed Slackware from floppies (5 1/4 inch ones). I have been developing free software on Linux since 1995. I was one of the first KDE developers, in early 1997. I have made a living out of understanding Linux since 1996. I write software, package software, install software, configure software, and write about software, all on Linux. So, that argument "some read books, some write them" or "some use linux, some live linux" won't fly with me, dude.
I probably understand what goes on in a distro better than 99.999% of Linux users. I have been employed by a distro maker, too!
And trust me, it is quite possible to "live linux" and still feel something like Gentoo lacks purpose or usefulness, to the best of my understanding. Which is a pretty good understanding.
I am glad I don't have to use it, yes, like you said ;-)
I am however worried how when someone points out a shortcoming of Gentoo, the kneejerk reaction is you don't have to use it, we real 313373 linux users know its better.
If you can put out an interesting argument on why it's better beyond it's cool and I am in control, well, you ain't that elite, either ;-)
Your post seems to assume I am somehow a casual Linux user, or something like that.
I have been using Linux since 1994. My first distro was Yggdrasil. I installed Slackware from floppies (5 1/4 inch ones). I have been developing free software on Linux since 1995. I was one of the first KDE developers, in early 1997. I have made a living out of understanding Linux since 1996. I write software, package software, install software, configure software, and write about software, all on Linux. So, that argument "some read books, some write them" or "some use linux, some live linux" won't fly with me, dude.
I probably understand what goes on in a distro better than 99.999% of Linux users. I have been employed by a distro maker, too!
And trust me, it is quite possible to "live linux" and still feel something like Gentoo lacks purpose or usefulness, to the best of my understanding. Which is a pretty good understanding.
I am glad I don't have to use it, yes, like you said ;-)
I am however worried how when someone points out a shortcoming of Gentoo, the kneejerk reaction is you don't have to use it, we real 313373 linux users know its better.
If you can put out an interesting argument on why it's better beyond it's cool and I am in control, well, you ain't that elite, either ;-)
I full heartedly agree with ralsina on this one, and I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought this way. Ill be the first one to admit that in the 5 years ive been using linux, Ive learned about 75% of it because I broke something and it was fix it or format. Most everybody ive talked to that said they learned so much about linux by using Gentoo is for this exact same reason, ie. if you dont learn how to do it all you'll have is a $1000+ box with a blinking cursor. If gentoo *forced* you to have a deeper understanding of linux, then that's wonderful, but to tout it as a *feature* or somehow conclude it makes a better distro is absurd.
As mentioned earlier, apart from using the portage system there isnt anything gentoo can do that other distros cannot. And in fact 9 times out of 10 its much harder to do it on gentoo! And as a follow up to the setting of compile flags in Mandrake/Redhat, all you need to do toss them into ~/.rpmrc and --rebuild the src.rpm.
As mentioned earlier, apart from using the portage system there isnt anything gentoo can do that other distros cannot. And in fact 9 times out of 10 its much harder to do it on gentoo! And as a follow up to the setting of compile flags in Mandrake/Redhat, all you need to do toss them into ~/.rpmrc and --rebuild the src.rpm.
I'm tempted not to get involved at all, but here goes.
I am definitely not a linux guru -- I've been using it for just over a year, the first 6 months or so on various versions of Redhat, mostly 9. I was pretty happy with it, but there were always things that I couldn't make work -- mplayer comes to mind, and any kind of streaming content on the web.
I tried gentoo, and I have all these things working. This isn't because I got any smarter (though I did learn a lot via the install) but because someone else who had already figured it out coded it all into an ebuild.
Could I have learned how to fix all these things on Redhat 9? Probably. But I spent a lot of time on it, in some cases (mplayer) trying everything from rpms, to apt-for-rpm, to compiling from source, scrupulously following instructions.
So that's among the many reasons I now prefer Gentoo -- it works.
Having said all that, I just read today that someone ported anaconda so you can install Gentoo with it -- which to me sounds like a great idea. I'm not tied to the current Gentoo install process, it would be cool if there were a choice.
I am definitely not a linux guru -- I've been using it for just over a year, the first 6 months or so on various versions of Redhat, mostly 9. I was pretty happy with it, but there were always things that I couldn't make work -- mplayer comes to mind, and any kind of streaming content on the web.
I tried gentoo, and I have all these things working. This isn't because I got any smarter (though I did learn a lot via the install) but because someone else who had already figured it out coded it all into an ebuild.
Could I have learned how to fix all these things on Redhat 9? Probably. But I spent a lot of time on it, in some cases (mplayer) trying everything from rpms, to apt-for-rpm, to compiling from source, scrupulously following instructions.
So that's among the many reasons I now prefer Gentoo -- it works.
Having said all that, I just read today that someone ported anaconda so you can install Gentoo with it -- which to me sounds like a great idea. I'm not tied to the current Gentoo install process, it would be cool if there were a choice.
Ralsina:
First you say that the installation is harder, and then you say that that you are an expert user. Which is it?
I have used most of the hoard of linux distributions that have been available over the years. I have -never- found one as easy to install and use. Everything just works right "out of the box", as they say. Everything is exactly where I'd expect, and this is not the case with more "user friendly" distros like Redhat, Mandrake, or Suse. If you don't see what makes Gentoo such a pleasure to use than I'm sorry your experience wasn't as good as mine has been. Simply put, I use Gentoo because it's easier. And I'm not the only person who feels this way. This message was edited Apr 13, 2004 12:11 PM
I have used most of the hoard of linux distributions that have been available over the years. I have -never- found one as easy to install and use. Everything just works right "out of the box", as they say. Everything is exactly where I'd expect, and this is not the case with more "user friendly" distros like Redhat, Mandrake, or Suse. If you don't see what makes Gentoo such a pleasure to use than I'm sorry your experience wasn't as good as mine has been. Simply put, I use Gentoo because it's easier. And I'm not the only person who feels this way. This message was edited Apr 13, 2004 12:11 PM
Just because I am experienced, that doesn't mean it's easy.
I mean, I can solve partial differential equations. That doesn't mean it's easy, either.
In fact, let me be even more clear: I can make gentoo work great. I just don't see it as worth the effort, if I can make other distros work great in one tenth of the time.
I mean, I can solve partial differential equations. That doesn't mean it's easy, either.
In fact, let me be even more clear: I can make gentoo work great. I just don't see it as worth the effort, if I can make other distros work great in one tenth of the time.
Ok knuckle draggers.
After reading the article and all the posts I found myself wondering, does it really matter? As long as the linux you use gets the job done then what does it matter. If you take the time to become familer with the linux you use there should be few problems. But it really really really does not matter if something loads a 100th of a second faster or if you compiled it yourself. I feel that there are far too many Linux Distros. Perhaps the Linux community would be better off if many of them joined forces and improved the things that suck about Linux. OMG I admitted that there is something wrong with Linux. I shall now punish myself by reloading Gentoo 10 times. If slackware works for you then fan dang ding great, if gentoo works for you wooohoo. Point is they all work for someone but unfortunatly finding the one that works for you is sometimes difficult. But if you did not take the time to find out why something did not load or configure right don't throw a temper tantrum and say its a pile of hoo hoo. There are many things that can go wrong or be wrong while you install or use it. Anyway I am rambling so I will just shut my pie hole. Please send my your thoughts I would love to discuss it with you. I am always open to learning new things.
RichardBCranium
After reading the article and all the posts I found myself wondering, does it really matter? As long as the linux you use gets the job done then what does it matter. If you take the time to become familer with the linux you use there should be few problems. But it really really really does not matter if something loads a 100th of a second faster or if you compiled it yourself. I feel that there are far too many Linux Distros. Perhaps the Linux community would be better off if many of them joined forces and improved the things that suck about Linux. OMG I admitted that there is something wrong with Linux. I shall now punish myself by reloading Gentoo 10 times. If slackware works for you then fan dang ding great, if gentoo works for you wooohoo. Point is they all work for someone but unfortunatly finding the one that works for you is sometimes difficult. But if you did not take the time to find out why something did not load or configure right don't throw a temper tantrum and say its a pile of hoo hoo. There are many things that can go wrong or be wrong while you install or use it. Anyway I am rambling so I will just shut my pie hole. Please send my your thoughts I would love to discuss it with you. I am always open to learning new things.
RichardBCranium
I've been using Linux only for about 6 months now. I started with Gentoo because a friend I knew used it and recommended it to me, and after looking over a lot of the other distrobutions, I decided its flexibility appealed to me.
It was a bumpy introduction to Linux, to say the least. After about a month of tweaking, I finally had a fully-functional desktop I was satisfied with. Eventually, though, I got tired of compiling ... so, I decided to try out Suse Personal 9.1.
This distro was a nice break from Gentoo. However, I eventually ran into some problems with it involving my sound card and my wireless lan. I tried to figure out the problem, but being new to Linux, I had little idea what to do, and when I tried to find the answer by probing around in my system, I was overwhelmed by the sheer number of processes running under Suse that I didn't understand.
When running Gentoo, however, I made an attempt to learn each program as I emerged it, and felt like I had a better grasp of what was happening on my system.
I soon switched back to Gentoo and was able to get everything working as it should! I've realized that using Gentoo isn't really all that hard if you're used to programming. The best thing I like about it is how clean it is, and how mutable.
Now, if Suse had worked perfectly on my machine right out of the box, so that I didn't need to pay attention to the underlying system so much, I definitely would've stuck with it. But with the annoyances it was causing me, I found it refreshing to have a system without clutter: Gentoo.
It's really best to think of Gentoo as a meta-distro, anyway. If you have several computers (or have many family members with computers who aren't willing to learn Linux's innards), then it's awesome to use Gentoo to build your own small, domestic distro :) Compile your own binary packages into the constellation of dependencies best fit to your knowledge and use of Linux ... and distribute!
So basically, the key to understanding Gentoo is that it's not actually a distro so much as a tool for generating custom micro-distros. When it's all said and compiled, you've got yourself a very appliance-like system -- and just because you can emerge --update world doesn't mean you always have too! Bleeding edge is fun and all, but who wants to always be compiling?
Not to mention that Gentoo has a compilation cache you can use so that an emerge --update won't neccessarily have to recompile everything -- just the pieces of source that need it.
It was a bumpy introduction to Linux, to say the least. After about a month of tweaking, I finally had a fully-functional desktop I was satisfied with. Eventually, though, I got tired of compiling ... so, I decided to try out Suse Personal 9.1.
This distro was a nice break from Gentoo. However, I eventually ran into some problems with it involving my sound card and my wireless lan. I tried to figure out the problem, but being new to Linux, I had little idea what to do, and when I tried to find the answer by probing around in my system, I was overwhelmed by the sheer number of processes running under Suse that I didn't understand.
When running Gentoo, however, I made an attempt to learn each program as I emerged it, and felt like I had a better grasp of what was happening on my system.
I soon switched back to Gentoo and was able to get everything working as it should! I've realized that using Gentoo isn't really all that hard if you're used to programming. The best thing I like about it is how clean it is, and how mutable.
Now, if Suse had worked perfectly on my machine right out of the box, so that I didn't need to pay attention to the underlying system so much, I definitely would've stuck with it. But with the annoyances it was causing me, I found it refreshing to have a system without clutter: Gentoo.
It's really best to think of Gentoo as a meta-distro, anyway. If you have several computers (or have many family members with computers who aren't willing to learn Linux's innards), then it's awesome to use Gentoo to build your own small, domestic distro :) Compile your own binary packages into the constellation of dependencies best fit to your knowledge and use of Linux ... and distribute!
So basically, the key to understanding Gentoo is that it's not actually a distro so much as a tool for generating custom micro-distros. When it's all said and compiled, you've got yourself a very appliance-like system -- and just because you can emerge --update world doesn't mean you always have too! Bleeding edge is fun and all, but who wants to always be compiling?
Not to mention that Gentoo has a compilation cache you can use so that an emerge --update won't neccessarily have to recompile everything -- just the pieces of source that need it.
Ralsina, with all your years of Linux experience, why would you be interested in an approach like Gentoo's anyway? You've been there, done that, the thrill is gone... Fair enough.
Many of us, though, are still delighted with the idea of doing such a ground-up install (yes, even making fstab!).
I just installed Gentoo 2004.3, and I loved it. I love knowing where everything is, what it does, how to make it do exactly what I want. Compared to my experiences with Mandrake and Red Hat, I feel like my Linux IQ has gone up 100 points.
Sure, it's interesting to know that I could've installed one of the other distros in such a fine-grained way. But if I did, why would I then want to hang out in a community where so relatively few users were interested in knowing their systems so deeply? (Well, to help them, I suppose... :?)
As a technical writer, my job is to learn about a project, then to imagine what it's like _not_ to understand it. That's harder than it seems (and why developers are such notoriously poor documenters).
So I can appreciate why it may be hard for you to understand why we like Gentoo so much. I can also appreciate that most Gentoo users probably fall into that narrow area between complete noobs and jaded vets.
Anyway, ain't it great, having all these choices?
Cheers, Ander
Many of us, though, are still delighted with the idea of doing such a ground-up install (yes, even making fstab!).
I just installed Gentoo 2004.3, and I loved it. I love knowing where everything is, what it does, how to make it do exactly what I want. Compared to my experiences with Mandrake and Red Hat, I feel like my Linux IQ has gone up 100 points.
Sure, it's interesting to know that I could've installed one of the other distros in such a fine-grained way. But if I did, why would I then want to hang out in a community where so relatively few users were interested in knowing their systems so deeply? (Well, to help them, I suppose... :?)
As a technical writer, my job is to learn about a project, then to imagine what it's like _not_ to understand it. That's harder than it seems (and why developers are such notoriously poor documenters).
So I can appreciate why it may be hard for you to understand why we like Gentoo so much. I can also appreciate that most Gentoo users probably fall into that narrow area between complete noobs and jaded vets.
Anyway, ain't it great, having all these choices?
Cheers, Ander
All:
First, my thanks to ralsina, for any involvement she may have had with KDE in the early days. The assorted betas and pre-1.0 releases of KDE (well, StarOffice was a big help, too) allowed me to wipe Windows and never look back some 7 years ago.
I was introduced to Linux by a big-time Debian booster, circa Debian 1.2, and stuck with it (mostly) until the ridiculous brouhaha over whether KDE was free enough to be truly free. At that point, problems in getting an unstable version (in those days, your choices were run unstable or use software whose tech support could have been provided by Ptolemy) that didn't kill my desktop chased me away from Debian forever and into the arms of SuSE, where I have stayed ever since.
On those occasions when I put a different distro on one of my machines, I used RedHat briefly, and really liked Caldera.
The point, if I have one, is that your distro should suit your needs and wants. A second point, is that you should be careful casting stones.
Many of us have spent a lot of time tweaking Linux and its accompanying software over the years. We may or may not want to play with our systems, depending on what we need to do today.
These days, a lot of my Linux work consists of writing with OpenOffice, doing video work with Cinelerra, Kino, and other assorted tools, some web development, and assorted graphical tasks that fall within my tiny skillset.
Spending too much time just getting crap to work is not nearly so much fun when you have things that need to be done, something I discovered when I upgraded to an Athlon 64/64-bit Linux and discovered which of my favorite tools were not quite 64-bit clean.
I'm delighted to see newbies having a blast doing the things that I did years ago. You should be doing that. It's good for you and it's fun.
But so is doing my video work and my writing and not worrying too much about getting the system going. Just because I'm a doddering old turd, doesn't mean I'm clueless.
First, my thanks to ralsina, for any involvement she may have had with KDE in the early days. The assorted betas and pre-1.0 releases of KDE (well, StarOffice was a big help, too) allowed me to wipe Windows and never look back some 7 years ago.
I was introduced to Linux by a big-time Debian booster, circa Debian 1.2, and stuck with it (mostly) until the ridiculous brouhaha over whether KDE was free enough to be truly free. At that point, problems in getting an unstable version (in those days, your choices were run unstable or use software whose tech support could have been provided by Ptolemy) that didn't kill my desktop chased me away from Debian forever and into the arms of SuSE, where I have stayed ever since.
On those occasions when I put a different distro on one of my machines, I used RedHat briefly, and really liked Caldera.
The point, if I have one, is that your distro should suit your needs and wants. A second point, is that you should be careful casting stones.
Many of us have spent a lot of time tweaking Linux and its accompanying software over the years. We may or may not want to play with our systems, depending on what we need to do today.
These days, a lot of my Linux work consists of writing with OpenOffice, doing video work with Cinelerra, Kino, and other assorted tools, some web development, and assorted graphical tasks that fall within my tiny skillset.
Spending too much time just getting crap to work is not nearly so much fun when you have things that need to be done, something I discovered when I upgraded to an Athlon 64/64-bit Linux and discovered which of my favorite tools were not quite 64-bit clean.
I'm delighted to see newbies having a blast doing the things that I did years ago. You should be doing that. It's good for you and it's fun.
But so is doing my video work and my writing and not worrying too much about getting the system going. Just because I'm a doddering old turd, doesn't mean I'm clueless.
Hope you don't mind I, Gentoo user, get involved in the discussion too.
Let me tell you first I don't give a &* about optimization, and I don't like compiling. But nonetheless I use Gentoo, shall try to point out why.
So, let me tell Gentoo is developing from LFS to a fully blown distro in my opinion. Many people are begging for an installation tool, so they don't have to edit their grub.conf and fstab. Thus that's being developed now by the Gentoo-devels.
Then, let me tell there's an ongoing effort to take away the long compiling times, a 'bin-based' gentoo-distro called Genux (see genux.org). It's the same as Gentoo, but packages are precompiled. It's a pity money is involved if you like this.
Following that, I'll point to several Gentoo-benefits, not mentioned earlier. Though, since my lack of knowledge of other things, this stuff may have been included in other distros as well:
Automatic security update: Glsa-check (work in progress). This tool checks which packages have a known security issue, so you can fix this typing one command. Haven't heard this from any other distro, but excuse me if that's my fault.
The live CD is great for recovering-work. Used it for WindowsXP too.
Easy to deploy hard-disk cryptography. I use 256 bit AES for my home partition. Included in the portage tree (packages).
etc-update. When you install new packages, old config files aren't being thrown away, but you run etc-update, and only 'merge' (overwrite the old with new) config-files you want. This isn't in any other distro I know of.
Hardened kernel, amongst other things. I like to have PaX enabled, which greatly reduces the risks of buffer overflows etc. Also hardened gcc may be nice, but I don't exactly know the difference anyway. But hey, you at least can say you have it, and it gives you the sense of more security (also, Pam and grsec come with that kernel).
Possibility to (simply) use LVM2. Because you do the install yourself, this is very simple to 'insert' in installation. You can't do that with an distro that uses pre-defined install(program/script), I think.
Very much kernels to choose. To name some: "Normal", Hardened, grsec, win4lin (buggy when I tried it a year ago), vanilla, mm, Alan Cox / Con Koliva's patches, usermode-sources for usermode Linux, WOLK-kernel, even Xbox.
As I said earlier, the best doc. Special docs of how you can harden you're Linux install, and for the install-doc: it's actually explained what you're doing, so if you're new to Linux, like I was, you don't ask yourself if something is going wrong: Where should I correct that? since you know WHAT you've done. What does a Debian-user do if his MP3player won't mount as normal user? I know I have to 'do something' in fstab. Users who never touched the file may not know what it does at all.
Larry the Cow Rocks! (Ok, that one is not serious). Larry the Cow is the Gentoo-mascotte.
Easy to use when you switch from *BSD. Don't have to learn all that RPM stuff. Just use the ports! (The ports in OpenBSD never actually worked, so I was very surprised when I could install 100 programs automatically with not 1 err)
Now, as I pointed out earlier, I was a newbie to Linux (came from *BSD actually, but was a newbie there too. That was my first other-than-windows-experience. But OpenBSD is difficult to use for desktop, that's why I switched). Since I was a newbie, you can wonder what's the use of 'knowing what you are doing'. Now, let me say this: I'm trying to pass the LPIC level 1 exam, succeeded for the 101 exam, without too much effort. Couldn't have done that just using Debian I think. So, for end users, it's like a 'toy', but it's the best distro for learning Linux, I think, if you forget about LFS. It isn't very suited for people just wanting to edit some videos, or just quickly install a system to use a text-processor, as dinotrac pointed out.
That's why everyone should choose their own distro. Mine is Gentoo, and unless I can get all my stuff to work on *BSD, that's not going to change (except for Genux).
Let me tell you first I don't give a &* about optimization, and I don't like compiling. But nonetheless I use Gentoo, shall try to point out why.
So, let me tell Gentoo is developing from LFS to a fully blown distro in my opinion. Many people are begging for an installation tool, so they don't have to edit their grub.conf and fstab. Thus that's being developed now by the Gentoo-devels.
Then, let me tell there's an ongoing effort to take away the long compiling times, a 'bin-based' gentoo-distro called Genux (see genux.org). It's the same as Gentoo, but packages are precompiled. It's a pity money is involved if you like this.
Following that, I'll point to several Gentoo-benefits, not mentioned earlier. Though, since my lack of knowledge of other things, this stuff may have been included in other distros as well:
Now, as I pointed out earlier, I was a newbie to Linux (came from *BSD actually, but was a newbie there too. That was my first other-than-windows-experience. But OpenBSD is difficult to use for desktop, that's why I switched). Since I was a newbie, you can wonder what's the use of 'knowing what you are doing'. Now, let me say this: I'm trying to pass the LPIC level 1 exam, succeeded for the 101 exam, without too much effort. Couldn't have done that just using Debian I think. So, for end users, it's like a 'toy', but it's the best distro for learning Linux, I think, if you forget about LFS. It isn't very suited for people just wanting to edit some videos, or just quickly install a system to use a text-processor, as dinotrac pointed out.
That's why everyone should choose their own distro. Mine is Gentoo, and unless I can get all my stuff to work on *BSD, that's not going to change (except for Genux).
The biggest advantage of Gentoo
The part I like best about gentoo is the number of scientific packages I can easily install and how current the packages are. There are some really exotic things I can install by typing one line.
If you like open source applications and want a lot of them easily installable, Gentoo is great. I've found that I have to compile and install a lot of things to make a Redhat system useable for my work. With Gentoo, I have to do the same things, but it is soooo much easier. I just type 'emerge app-sci/iverilog' and that's it.
If you like open source applications and want a lot of them easily installable, Gentoo is great. I've found that I have to compile and install a lot of things to make a Redhat system useable for my work. With Gentoo, I have to do the same things, but it is soooo much easier. I just type 'emerge app-sci/iverilog' and that's it.
gentoo on desktop gets A+
Dave, I can testify that gentoo does as well as a desktop distro as any others I've used. I have it running on laptops, desktop intel, desktop athlons. Even have it running on a g3-266 (and its surprisingly useable.) This g3 mac was headed for the dumpster, but it compiled both perl and python in similar times as a p3-550 on my lan.
So anyway, gentoo and the g3 are keepers.
So anyway, gentoo and the g3 are keepers.
Gentoo and the time
Well, I was also very "wow cool" Gentoo. Yes, I learned some things from it. Most thing how to pass by all this installers and do it by hand (helps me a lot now when I install debian from Knoppix).
But the only negative thing with Gentoo I have, is that in the long term run there are small problems popping up. eg, last time mplayer refused to work because some sub libraries changed and mplayer was compield to some lib.so.2.0.0-a.1. The other thing is, even thought I have a Pentium 4 1.6Ghz and 1GB RAM, compiling takes an awful long time. And in my opinion its not worth it (except *). At home I, where I have an even slower PC, I switched to Debian, and the only thing I compile is the kernel.
*) When you want to install GNU/Linux on an Architekture not manly supported, eg Opterion. Then you almost can't ship around Gentoo at the moment.
So Gentoo is two sided medal. It has its good points in the USE flags (thought they could be a bit better) and the possibility to compile for different architectures, and its downside in compile time and no speed gain at all and the fact that there are on and off some problems.
*) When you want to install GNU/Linux on an Architekture not manly supported, eg Opterion. Then you almost can't ship around Gentoo at the moment.
So Gentoo is two sided medal. It has its good points in the USE flags (thought they could be a bit better) and the possibility to compile for different architectures, and its downside in compile time and no speed gain at all and the fact that there are on and off some problems.
I Like Gentoo, but compile some more first.
You say you dispell gentoo myths. You have compiled no X windows, no gnome, nothing. You dont have a desktop system, you have a server plain console. Your system specs are not the average users computer, your pretty much top of the line. I have a slower I/O, less ram, a more down to earth 32-bit proc. I'm the one that feels the painful gentoo installs. I'm not bashing gentoo in anyway, its a great distro. If you install binary-only though go with red-hat because its more rounded, if you want to compile and get every last ounch of performance out of the distro gentoo is the way to go. That being said compile X-Windows and Gnome and that is the painful gentoo installation. On the bright side after you compile gnome you compile almost any library you would ever dream of needing for any applications.
I have an AthonXP 2000+ and compile times in bootstrap and so on don't differ so much from his. Say maybe 10 minutes here 20 minutes there, but then again, from that to the 3 days some claim...
On the other hand, you don't _need_ to compile all from source. Just get your average GRP set and you're set to go, I actually don't build it all, as performance isn't all that different, what's important are USE flags. If a package takes no advantage of USE flags, what's the point building it when you can fetch it already compiled for your arch with suitable CFLAGS?
Even, Gnome doesn't take that long to compile, not as long as KDE at least. And if you're not happy with compiling that, then fetch the binary somewhere, you've got LiveCD's, online GRP, or even the chinstrap project...
Last time I built XFree was when I did a emerge -U world and XFree was in the list, but since I do it when I go to sleep it's painless. I just have about once every 3 weeks when cron checks for updates and emerges them at about 02:00 a.m, when I'm most probably asleep.
With Gentoo, as it is also with Debian, once you have you system set and ready, mantainance is really painless. Maybe a compile here and there, but Gnome doesn't come out with releases ever week, does it? Neither does KDE. Maybe kernel updates will be what you upgrade mostly, because GCC, coreutils, glibc, and so on, aren't updated so often. And Gentoo is so scalable...
What pain? On my Little 1.2 Duron I compile X, Gnome, Mozilla etc either entirely while sleeping, or at work. Within a few hours. When I use distcc that gets even shorter. Gentoo makes the best desktop. It is stable. I have no problems listening to mp3s, watching and recording dvds, running mythtv, playing games, using openoffice etc. Everything simply works.
I have an 800mhz duron with 512MB ram at work and can compile things even while working. I have the 2.6 kernel and I just run "nice --adjustment=10" so that I can work & compile at the same time.
If you don't want to compile, look at the Genux project (=pre-compiled Gentoo): Genux.org (developing).
It's a shame it costs money though.
It's a shame it costs money though.
Review ends where problems begin
I think it's interesting that the review left off exactly where the problems I and (if the Gentoo forums are any indication) many others have start.
I've gone back and forth between Gentoo and Fedora/Redhat for a while now. When using Fedora I miss the more aggressive release schedule of Gentoo (KDE 3.2.1, Emacs, etc..), but what always sends me back to Redhat/Fedora are the desktop difficulties.
I've been using Linux since about the same time as the author, and while I'm quite capable of screwing things up, I'm pretty experienced with Linux desktop admin and development. While I'm sure I could spend a couple weeks researching why fonts and sound don't work well out of the box on the several machines I have played with... but I don't want to and I shouldn't have too. Mandrake gets it right, SuSE gets it right, and Fedora has never had a problem either. Until the maintainers of Gentoo can setup the font ebuilds to properly configure xfs (at the very least) I'm not going to sit in front of a Gentoo box for the 12 hours a day I spend coding. Until the sound comes up easily and plays without distortion I'm going to spend those 12 hours mp3'ing on Fedora (which has no such issues). (And again, based on the Gentoo forums I am certainly not alone here)
I think that the power of Gentoo is that you can customize as needed and wanted. This is a boon that the other distro's just don't offer well, if at all. But that really isn't an excuse for poorly implemented defaults. A distro needs to work flawlessly in the default.
I don't mind pooring time into configuring my Emacs, my cross-compiling suites, and my debuggers. I need to customize them for my work and accept that burden to get them right. The rest of the desktop should just work.
- Hunter
I've gone back and forth between Gentoo and Fedora/Redhat for a while now. When using Fedora I miss the more aggressive release schedule of Gentoo (KDE 3.2.1, Emacs, etc..), but what always sends me back to Redhat/Fedora are the desktop difficulties.
I've been using Linux since about the same time as the author, and while I'm quite capable of screwing things up, I'm pretty experienced with Linux desktop admin and development. While I'm sure I could spend a couple weeks researching why fonts and sound don't work well out of the box on the several machines I have played with... but I don't want to and I shouldn't have too. Mandrake gets it right, SuSE gets it right, and Fedora has never had a problem either. Until the maintainers of Gentoo can setup the font ebuilds to properly configure xfs (at the very least) I'm not going to sit in front of a Gentoo box for the 12 hours a day I spend coding. Until the sound comes up easily and plays without distortion I'm going to spend those 12 hours mp3'ing on Fedora (which has no such issues). (And again, based on the Gentoo forums I am certainly not alone here)
I think that the power of Gentoo is that you can customize as needed and wanted. This is a boon that the other distro's just don't offer well, if at all. But that really isn't an excuse for poorly implemented defaults. A distro needs to work flawlessly in the default.
I don't mind pooring time into configuring my Emacs, my cross-compiling suites, and my debuggers. I need to customize them for my work and accept that burden to get them right. The rest of the desktop should just work.
- Hunter
Hi Hunter,
You might be correct - I don't know enough about Gentoo to know for sure. As I stated in the review article, this was a review of Gentoo on the server and I only recommended it for that purpose (even then, just for LAMP-type services).
As for the desktop, I don't yet know. I expect to have a lot of the problems that you mentioned in your post, and whether they are surmountable or not is yet to be seen. My review of Gentoo on the desktop very well may have a surprisingly different outcome than this server review. I'm still using White Box Enterprise Linux for my desktop (and Fedora for my wife's desktop) and am happy.
best wishes, Dave
You might be correct - I don't know enough about Gentoo to know for sure. As I stated in the review article, this was a review of Gentoo on the server and I only recommended it for that purpose (even then, just for LAMP-type services).
As for the desktop, I don't yet know. I expect to have a lot of the problems that you mentioned in your post, and whether they are surmountable or not is yet to be seen. My review of Gentoo on the desktop very well may have a surprisingly different outcome than this server review. I'm still using White Box Enterprise Linux for my desktop (and Fedora for my wife's desktop) and am happy.
best wishes, Dave
Hunterware: You can get a pretty aggresive KDE release schedule on Fedora using the packages from kde-redhat.sf.net.
It was there less than 48 hours after official release :-)
It was there less than 48 hours after official release :-)
*smile* I used them to do the upgrade. I also eagerly await Fedora Core 2 that will be out with many many updates.
While this project gave Fedora users fast access to an updated KDE, Gentoo gives it's users fast access to pretty much everything. It's almost spooky how many projects find their way into ebuilds and how quickly.
I just wish that they'd "raise the bar" with certain core desktop features (fonts and sound springing to mind).
- Hunter
P.S Dave, thank you for a clear and complete review of the Gentoo distrobution at a server or text-based level. I in no way meant to post otherwise. I just found it ironic that while Gentoo is so powerful on the server, the next step is exactly where the difficulties seem to arise (for me).
While this project gave Fedora users fast access to an updated KDE, Gentoo gives it's users fast access to pretty much everything. It's almost spooky how many projects find their way into ebuilds and how quickly.
I just wish that they'd "raise the bar" with certain core desktop features (fonts and sound springing to mind).
- Hunter
P.S Dave, thank you for a clear and complete review of the Gentoo distrobution at a server or text-based level. I in no way meant to post otherwise. I just found it ironic that while Gentoo is so powerful on the server, the next step is exactly where the difficulties seem to arise (for me).
Hunter,
If you've got a problem or suggestion, just visit bugs.gentoo.org. We can't go searching all over the Internet to find everybody's gripes and ideas.
By the way, I'm a little surprised you're still using legacy applications that use xfs and therefore the old core fonts setup, although your point is just as valid for fontconfig.
The general idea is "We tell you how to do it; you do it yourself." This is supported by our superb (in my opinion) documentation and the info given after each emerge.
Thanks, Donnie
By the way, I'm a little surprised you're still using legacy applications that use xfs and therefore the old core fonts setup, although your point is just as valid for fontconfig.
The general idea is "We tell you how to do it; you do it yourself." This is supported by our superb (in my opinion) documentation and the info given after each emerge.
Thanks, Donnie
Hi Hunter,
It may sound odd to you, but after installing Gentoo my fonts and sound just worked out of the box. I didn't have to configure anything to make it work, just as it should.. Setting up X was very simple also, just edited three lines in xorg.conf. In fact, I never had much issues with GUI-utilities. But I use very common hardware, it may be different with other hardware.
Just wanted to say it's not always Gentoo doesn't work out of the box.
It may sound odd to you, but after installing Gentoo my fonts and sound just worked out of the box. I didn't have to configure anything to make it work, just as it should.. Setting up X was very simple also, just edited three lines in xorg.conf. In fact, I never had much issues with GUI-utilities. But I use very common hardware, it may be different with other hardware.
Just wanted to say it's not always Gentoo doesn't work out of the box.
Gentoo Rocks but ....
Hey Guys,
Gentoo is by far the best distro in terms of performance. NO doubt about it. But the place where i stay internet BW is not easily available. For enjoying Gentoo a broadband connectivity is a must. And in India its very scarce. Only corporates can afford it. I had to install Gentoo using the Live CD and the stage3 install. But i needed a lot of other pkgs which i couldnt get hold of because of bad internet connectivity. If Gentoo Guys can probably have a stage3 CD-2 and CD-3 isoimages for download ..it would be very helpful for people like me.
Regards, Visu.
Gentoo is by far the best distro in terms of performance. NO doubt about it. But the place where i stay internet BW is not easily available. For enjoying Gentoo a broadband connectivity is a must. And in India its very scarce. Only corporates can afford it. I had to install Gentoo using the Live CD and the stage3 install. But i needed a lot of other pkgs which i couldnt get hold of because of bad internet connectivity. If Gentoo Guys can probably have a stage3 CD-2 and CD-3 isoimages for download ..it would be very helpful for people like me.
Regards, Visu.
Actually, you can get the packages cd and use that in liu of an internet connection to an rsync mirror. At least that was my understanding of it.
Poke around the gentoo mirrors for it, and if you can't find it then post to the gentoo forums.
TheLinuxGuy: hope this could help you:
I have a download-limit of 250M/ month, so I can't donwload too much too. (using Gentoo too). I live in the Netherlands.
So I decided to buy a Gentoo-dvd, +cd. The cd contains install stuff, the dvd almost all distfiles, well, at least 4.4Gb of it. I even heared all the distfiles (except games) + install, can be bought on 2dvd's, one of them is bootable and installs Gentoo. It's a pity I can't tell where to buy it.
Anyway, if you really like an install CD + distfiles DVD, look at http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/where.xml Maybe you can find it somewhere. I checked and the distfiles DVD aren't sold in many stores. If you really want it, ask me, then I'll ask if the Dutch store also could ship their DVD's to India. Moreover, that store also handles 'requests', so I could try to request all the distfiles on DVD's. But it could cost some money.
I have a download-limit of 250M/ month, so I can't donwload too much too. (using Gentoo too). I live in the Netherlands.
So I decided to buy a Gentoo-dvd, +cd. The cd contains install stuff, the dvd almost all distfiles, well, at least 4.4Gb of it. I even heared all the distfiles (except games) + install, can be bought on 2dvd's, one of them is bootable and installs Gentoo. It's a pity I can't tell where to buy it.
Anyway, if you really like an install CD + distfiles DVD, look at http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/where.xml Maybe you can find it somewhere. I checked and the distfiles DVD aren't sold in many stores. If you really want it, ask me, then I'll ask if the Dutch store also could ship their DVD's to India. Moreover, that store also handles 'requests', so I could try to request all the distfiles on DVD's. But it could cost some money.
Gentoo isn't for n00bs.
"In addition to some sundry and easy steps that are outlined in the handbook, there are some steps here that separate the men from the boys. This part of the installation is the most involved - you have to do a lot of the work yourself, and this is the area in which I believe Gentoo could improve the most. Really, manually creating files like fstab is fine if you've been sysadmining Linux for years, but for newer folks, it just isn't acceptable. I appreciate the power and control that Gentoo gives me, but there is no good reason to have to create your own grub.conf and fstab."
Gentoo is meant for n00bs. The moment they add a script for installation that automaticly detects hardware and writes config files, I'll find a diffrent distrobution.
Gentoo is meant for n00bs. The moment they add a script for installation that automaticly detects hardware and writes config files, I'll find a diffrent distrobution.
Amen, sort of ...
Actually Linux is for p***ies - far too easy to use for dorks without a Ph.D. in comp. sci. I'm coding my own OS, which will only require a modest amount of Assembler programming interface to properly configure the boot sequence. Just borrowing this cra**y pre-built PC (yeah, I only use PC's I've manufactured, and by "manufactured" I mean I build or create everything - any n00b a**hole can slap a pre-fab CPU onto a pre-fab mobo - none of that sh*t for me) from a friend to post. Well, we're off to go hunting - nothing like the kill and smell of fresh blood.
Frank Lee Testosterone
Frank Lee Testosterone
(chuckling) I could have done without the explitives, but the humour was definitely not lost on me. :)
C'mon Dave, *real* men are scatological. Although I must confess that I do find that I'm somewhat old to easily pick up "l33t-speak". I find I'm often searching for intended meanings - sort of an attempt at cross-generation scripting. Just remember, there are really only two simple axioms for many members of the "Linux community."
1. Don't dis my distro. 2. Anything you say that's positive about another distro is dis-ing my distro.
Now there are corollaries to those axioms, like
A. My distro is best because I'm smart and I chose it. B. I chose it because it's [ 'fastest' | 'hardest' | 'easiest' | 'newest' ]
"May the gods of Gentoo not smite thee, and keep thee from kernel panic."
1. Don't dis my distro. 2. Anything you say that's positive about another distro is dis-ing my distro.
Now there are corollaries to those axioms, like
A. My distro is best because I'm smart and I chose it. B. I chose it because it's [ 'fastest' | 'hardest' | 'easiest' | 'newest' ]
"May the gods of Gentoo not smite thee, and keep thee from kernel panic."
Gentoo is fastest, hardest, easiest, AND newest. :)
Feel free to say something positive about another distro. I will, however, respond to dissing my distro.
Feel free to say something positive about another distro. I will, however, respond to dissing my distro.
Not only have I compiled everything I also built my own car, smelted all the metal myself over a campfire. Why would I buy a prebuilt car when I can do it myself? I can do it better than they can and its faster too!!! I will call my car hairfire for obvious reasons. I could go on but I have a program compiling and I don't want to miss a 100th of a second of it.
Sorry but I do compiling in the bathroom while I am on the phone. Ok then bad joke.
disclaimer: Gentoo is a good distro for the right person and I am in no way dissin your distro just pokin at it.
RichadBcranium
Sorry but I do compiling in the bathroom while I am on the phone. Ok then bad joke.
disclaimer: Gentoo is a good distro for the right person and I am in no way dissin your distro just pokin at it.
RichadBcranium
Gentoo certainly isn't for noobs, but if you have a spare hard drive to play with I encourage anyone to try installing it, though patience is a virtue. If you're like me, it will probably take a few attempts to get it right and understand what you're doing and why you're doing it, but the handbook on the install CD or the website for that matter is quite good. Portage is a godsend. Makes installing packages and keeping up to date so easy. It certainly isn't without its faults, but as you progress you discover that they aren't always necessarily faults: they are often misunderstandings or misconfigurations on your part. Many a time I have cursed Gentoo and later discovered I didn't quite understand some critical details.
If you have any intention of installing packages precompiled for your processor from another CD (something that's possible and speeds things up considerably), then using "emerge sync" early is a bad idea. Once your system is reasonably set up you can copy the contents of the packages CD to /usr/portage/packages (you'll have to make the packages directory), then to install packages from this location and avoid the long compilation times that Gentoo is so famous for, use "emerge -k packagename". It's much quicker. When your system is up and running nicely, then you can think about using "emerge sync" and "emerge -u world". "etc-update" (often used after "emerge -u world") is also a fun tool to use, and a bit of investigation is advised before letting it wield its powers as it's a dangerous tool in inexperienced hands.
Given a few trials (well, it could be many if you've got less than expert Linux knowledge), it's not too difficult to install. You just have to read the instructions. I love Gentoo, though it's not for people expecting to throw a disc in and answer a few simple questions, reboot and have a perfectly working system 10 or 20 minutes later. Nor is it for people only wanting a working system without bothering with the guts of Linux per se. You have to earn your keep. Your reward for your hard work is experience and knowledge.
Luke This message was edited Jun 9, 2004 6:43 AM
If you have any intention of installing packages precompiled for your processor from another CD (something that's possible and speeds things up considerably), then using "emerge sync" early is a bad idea. Once your system is reasonably set up you can copy the contents of the packages CD to /usr/portage/packages (you'll have to make the packages directory), then to install packages from this location and avoid the long compilation times that Gentoo is so famous for, use "emerge -k packagename". It's much quicker. When your system is up and running nicely, then you can think about using "emerge sync" and "emerge -u world". "etc-update" (often used after "emerge -u world") is also a fun tool to use, and a bit of investigation is advised before letting it wield its powers as it's a dangerous tool in inexperienced hands.
Given a few trials (well, it could be many if you've got less than expert Linux knowledge), it's not too difficult to install. You just have to read the instructions. I love Gentoo, though it's not for people expecting to throw a disc in and answer a few simple questions, reboot and have a perfectly working system 10 or 20 minutes later. Nor is it for people only wanting a working system without bothering with the guts of Linux per se. You have to earn your keep. Your reward for your hard work is experience and knowledge.
Luke This message was edited Jun 9, 2004 6:43 AM
Can I just say...
thank you! I read this article last Friday and decided to give gentoo a shot. Now I sit here posting from my speedy little Vaio laptop running gentoo and gnome, having learned more about linux in the last 4 days than I have in the last 4 years.
This distro is without a doubt one of the best learning tools I have used!
This distro is without a doubt one of the best learning tools I have used!
!! I'm glad it's working out for you. It certainly is a fun and solid distro, my favorite. :) Reminds me of the old Slackware days, and it makes me feel like I should have a long gray beard. :-)
dave
dave
Fast and Flexible
If you think system -> packagesystem -> kernel -> config [ X - Gnome2] -> emerge [sync] XOR [--update system|world]
then this distro is real intuitive :-) Apart from my hyroglyphs this is a really easy distro to install and mantain
once you get the hang of it. I love it.
Gentoo on SATA.
Is it really that easy to configure in installing gentoo into SATA hard disk?
Wouldn't think it would be to hard to install any recent enough linux distro onto a sata based box so it shouldnt really be a problem with gentoo either.
With Slackware which isn't exactly bleeding edge its a walk in the park, no diff from an ide drive except for the device name as far as i can see.
of what i concern is that when i install gentoo on IBM server with SATA HD, will it be the same as of what Dave had mentioned(just that easy like instead of hda it is sda...)? but nonetheless, i'll try it out when i get the server and see what goes on. i'll post new reply so that anybuddy can give some advice on the issue...
Yes, and modern distro that uses the 2.6 kernel will automatically load your SATA driver and the drives will instantly be available. Easy as pie.
That assumes your hardware is supported, of course!
That assumes your hardware is supported, of course!
I intended to buy an IBM server with the specs below:
· Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 3.00GHz, 800MHz FSB, 1MB L2 Cache · 256MB PC2700 ECC DDR DIMM · 80GB Simple-Swap SATA Hard Drive · Integrated OnBoard 10/100/1000 Ethernet Adapter · Integrated RAID 0/1 Support · 48X IDE CD-ROM Drive
I don't know whether will the SATA hard drive be detected or not(of course i don't know which SATA brand they would use, WD? IBM? MAXTOR? Seagate?)? any suggestion? If this is going to work I'm sure I will stick with it...
Jack (Tech Support) Malaysia Gentoo Linux user.
· Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 3.00GHz, 800MHz FSB, 1MB L2 Cache · 256MB PC2700 ECC DDR DIMM · 80GB Simple-Swap SATA Hard Drive · Integrated OnBoard 10/100/1000 Ethernet Adapter · Integrated RAID 0/1 Support · 48X IDE CD-ROM Drive
I don't know whether will the SATA hard drive be detected or not(of course i don't know which SATA brand they would use, WD? IBM? MAXTOR? Seagate?)? any suggestion? If this is going to work I'm sure I will stick with it...
Jack (Tech Support) Malaysia Gentoo Linux user.
All SATA hard drives will be detected, as long as your SATA controller (which is on the motherboard usually) is supported. So, what is the name of the controller?
dave
dave
I haven't got the server yet, I'll post it when i got. thanks for the help.
Just looking at the SATA cables and connectors makes me VERY interested in this technology. Even the wrapped (circular) ide cables I use are no match for these in not hindering air flow in large, hot cases.
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Not that I tthink it's a bad dimension or anything, but, it's bizarro world for me :-)
Honestly, no, my breath doesn't quicken at all because the distro was compiled by me, not one bit. And no, absolute control is no big deal for me.
Computers are tools for me. Cool tools, but tools.
Besides, you know you *can* edit fstab and grub.conf while installing Red Hat or whatever, right? You don't *have* to, but you can (just switch to the terminal after installation ends, go to /mnt/sysimage and edit at will).
And you *can* recompile all your packages on any distro. But you don't have to. I know, on Gentoo you don't either. Then what's the difference?
I want the computer to do things for me, not I do things for her!
I know exactly how my operating system works. That doesn't mean I have to do each and every thing that is necessary for it to work. That's a waste of my time, because a tool can do it just as well. That's what computers were invented for!
In fact, I think all the arguments given in this thread are bizarre, and they make no sense to me. I am sure they make sense to you guys, but I suppose, indeed, I don't get it. I have a nagging feeling *you* don't get it, though ;-)
On another note, I find the comment about how gentoo users are "builders" while users of other distros are "buyers" amusing, and sad.
Amusing because gentoo "builders" using recipes to build stuff, are as blind as anyone to what happens. They have a (IMHO) false feeling of knowledge. They don't learn, they just do.
And sad, because that false feeling of learning is about learning something that is pretty useless. Sure, you can create fstab from scratch. you can create grub.conf from scratch. You can tell your system to recompile itself.
What's the PURPOSE????
That's what I don't get. If you just get fun from it, I suppose it's a worthy cause, but don't pretend that you are doing anything useful. You are playing with your system.
I want to use it for something else. Not for the system's sake.