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Linux doesn't need marketing

Posted by hkwint on · 87 comments
LXer Linux News; By H.Kwint - The Netherlands
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LXer Feature: 19-May-2009

Most Linux adepts will agree Linux could have a higher market share than it does today, if it had been marketed more effectively in the past. Therefore, lots of those adepts stress “Linux needs more marketing!” Some efforts have been done, most notably I remember the Indy 500 car which advertised Linux, and more recently the "We're Linux" Video Contest by Linux Foundation. One question hasn't been answered as of yet however: What's the goal of marketing Linux?

In his article “Linux is not an OS", Danijel Orsolic stresses generic Linux marketing would fail because there is no boundary about what encompasses the Linux platform and what not. In a reaction to that article, Sander Marechal objects this cannot be known as it never has been tried. One cannot argue that logic. However, looking at the market, Linux is rather successful, even without marketing. Even without generic advertising! But question remains, why?

The most important thing before starting any marketing is defining success and measurable objectives. But what would be the goal of generic Linux marketing? Increasing the market share of desktop Linux by 5%? As explained before by many people, Linux market share on the desktop cannot be measured accurately, so that's not an option.

Another attempt: More companies shipping Linux devices; for example hundred new models in six months? But if all are almost the same – like most Windows desktops – what's the gain? Or should more people with Linux certificates be the goal? But then people would only learn what's necessary to pass those exams. Until now, I never saw anyone define measurable, sensible and realistic goals for Linux.

Companies have been understanding this for the last decade. Look at Dell and Lenovo. Both recommend Windows Vista, but recommending it doesn't help them from distinguishing their products from the products of their competitors, so clearly this is not the way. Back to Linux, we can see this happening with the LiMo platform.

Unless you lived under a rock the past year, I guess you heard from the Android platform for mobile devices. At this moment there are five models of mobile devices shipping with Android Linux. At the same time, over thirty devices run the LiMo platform. “Then why isn't the amount of talk about LiMo not six times as big than the amount of Android talk?" I hear you ask.

It's because Samsung, Motorola and other LiMo allies have simply decided so. “Consumers should buy our phones because they're cool Samsung or Motorola gadgets, not because they run LiMo" is their vision. Look at Apple's iPhone page. It doesn't mention what operating system it is running. It doesn't have to.

The same goes for harddisk recorders from Sony and Philips. Newer models of them run Linux, older ones don't. It doesn't show a large “Linux" screen on your TV when you start them however. You can only find out if they use Linux by reading their manual; if they run Linux you'll find a phone number in the manual to ask for source code. Or look at the TiVo site. No mention of Linux at all. Last one: Look at the TomTom page. No mention of Linux again. Starting to see a pattern here? Still not convinced, then look at Google's Android site. Still no mention of Linux!

Those companies have chosen Linux even if it is not marketed. They would not have chosen it if they thought it was a bad product for their customers. Moreover, they know their customers – and their customers don't care. They want to share contacts and pictures, synchronize appointments and call with their mobile phones. They want apps on their iPhone. They want simple navigation. Or they want a stack for their mobile devices for which development is cheap. If what they want encompasses Linux, then implicitly they want Linux. But as long as the solution brings what they want, they don't care if the solution contains Linux or not. Moreover, almost all TiVo, HD-recorder and TomTom users don't know they are running Linux. So why would anyone promote it if people already buy it?

Well, because compared to the mobile phones there's one – and only one! - single smaller peculiar market where people know the name of the OS of their device. That's the desktop. Sometimes, Microsoft would rather not have people know the name, because lots of people are correctly blaming Microsoft if their computer doesn't work. Let's take a closer look at the desktop. Linux desktops are doing well on the government desktop. It's also slowly making its way into companies.

The only obstacle is consumer desktops. Apple doesn't sell their OS for generic consumer desktops. Neither doe RedHat or Novell, and Canonical gives them away for free! The conclusion here, is only Microsoft is the only company selling an OS for the consumer desktop. So no company is going to do marketing for an OS for the consumer desktop except for Microsoft. You would guess you had a very bad product if you are the only vendor and still have to do marketing, but lets skip past that. So the only reason to do Linux marketing would be for consumer PC's. However, customers don't have a choice when buying a desktop or laptop when it comes to their OS.

Back to marketing: From Microsofts Power Evangelism document we know platform marketing should be done by identifying the hurdles for developers and taking those away. The problems are the lack of choice the consumer has, not the lack of Linux marketing the consumer receives. Companies had that choice, and chose Linux. Even if it was not marketed to them. Government chose Linux. Some companies did. Lots of developers did. But consumers didn't. Linux doesn't need marketing, it needs consumers to be able to choose.

What should happen to enable consumers to choose deserves an article on its own, however.

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Comments (87)

The Real Role and Importance of Marketing

48 earlier comments in the full thread.

Sander_Marechal ·
Yes, Hasbro/Mattel own Scrabble and they have a loooong history of suing companies and hobbyists over copyright and trademark infringements. See e.g. the Scabulous case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabulous#Legal_and_copyright_...

They not only sue games bearing a similar name, but also games which use similar rules and board layout. This makes it hard to create (and find) FOSS scrabble games.
hkwint ·
So, what can we say... Hasbro understood the real role and importance of marketing their trademarks?

Porting XScrabble to KDE doesn't seem like a good idea anymore I'm afraid.

TA: Maybe try WordBiz: a Java interface for playing online scrabble. Not sure if there is a computer opponent and haven't tried it as of yet, but you may give it a go. Now we'll wait until Mattel lawyers figure out Romania belongs to EU so the owners of this site can be threatened; hopefully that will take a while.

http://isc.ro/linux/download.html
tracyanne ·
I sometimes wonder how Linux is supposed to get noticed at all. I've spent some time talking with a lady, in her 60s, who lives in New Jersey, she's quite keen to try Ubuntu, after have read about it and talked to me. She wants some hand holding, and I can't give her any. So I contacted the leader of the New Jersey Ubuntu Loco, his names Joe, his details are available on the NJUL website. this is over two weeks ago.

He seemed quite keen, he even got back to me almost immediately, which I took as a good sign, and suggested that they organise an install fest in my friend's area, since then neither she, I supplied Joe with her email address, nor I, I've since the initial encounter emailed Joe to ask him what's happening, have heard a dickie bird from the New Jersey Ubuntu Loco, or it's leader... nothing, not a peep, no updates, no request for information on when would be a good time for my friend, absolute stony silence.

With this sort of attitude among Linux advocates it's no wonder, Linux languishes, unsung, unheard of by the masses.
tuxtom ·
Quoting:With this sort of attitude among Linux advocates it's no wonder, Linux languishes, unsung, unheard of by the masses.
It isn't surprising that there there isn't anyone breaking down the door to do some hand-holding for a 60-something woman on her computer. Not that there is anything wrong with her needing some help, and it is all noble that she wants to use Ubuntu and all, but it will be a support nightmare and a lot of incessant work in even the best-case scenario. I put my own 70-something father back on a Mac after trying to support him on Ubuntu. It just wasn't economically feasible. You might even consider that when looking at Linux adoption in general. When it comes to opportunity cost, the Microsoft or Apple Tax is considerably less than the Linux Tax.
tracyanne ·
@ tuxtom bull5h1t.

Everyone of the people I've set up with Linux, Mandriva and Ubuntu, is over 60, and they are anything but a support nightmare. In fact they require little to no support at all after the initial training session and single follow up.
caitlyn ·
My Mom still runs Windows, but when she visits she sits down at one of my Linux boxes and does all the things she wants to do without difficulty. She's in her 70s.
tuxchick ·
Yeah, let's keep using older women as the poster children for morons who can't learn anything technical.
caitlyn ·
Well... my point is, in part, that older women can do just fine with Linux and are generally no more or less likely to learn easily than any other demographic group you care to name. But, yeah... the stereotyping is getting really annoying.

-Caitlyn (somewhat older woman)
hkwint ·
I have to admit no Scrabble (and Rummikub) would be a showstopper for my grandma if she were to try something else than Windows (she's over 70). That's the only thing she did with her $1000 lappy. Speaking about stereotype, ahem. My mother by the way, is also not able to learn anything technical, and she's not an older woman. But I have to admit I don't understand the new 'universal' remote control of my father either.
tuxchick ·
Sorry caitlyn, I was whining at tuxtom. I should have made that clear. I'm on the other side of 50 and getting more fabulous :)

In real life some folks are naturally adept with computers and don't need a lot of help, and some folks are always going to need some hand-holding, especially for tasks that they perform only occasionally. It has nothing to do with age or sex.
hkwint ·
Yeah, there are enough men of my age struggling with Windows-viruses etc. at all; having no clue how to fix all this.

My father is on his way; without any of my help he installed OpenOffice because Microsoft didn't allow him to use his old not-so-legal MS Office anymore. I have to notice this happened last year, and the MS-office version was 2000. Nice way to treat happy customers I guess; even if they didn't pay. About OOo: As long as my mother doesn't know it's another program she's rather fine with it. So we exchanged icons; put the blue W on OOo and all is fine. Then Outlook was not able to communicate with the Exchange server from the school where she works; probably after some update. My father fixed that by installing Opera; the M2 client did work with Exchange. Let me repeat: Outlook didn't work with Exchange, M2 did! We all know Opera respect standards, but that Microsoft doesn't respect their own standards _is_ news in my opinion. I mentioned Thunderbird, but when my mother understands how to do mail communication we're usually just really happy because she needs a lot of 'handholding'; she's the type that takes notes the first three times you explain how to do some task on the computer. Probably the reason I didn't attempt to give her a Linux PC as of yet; after 5 years she figured out how to cope with Windows; and while Linux will probably take less time it still would take some time. However, softlinking is something that's really missing in Windows and her files always end up in the wrong dir (the My Document thats hierarchically both below and above the desktop etc. mess that's Windows; if you ever worked with XP you'll understand). And that I would be able to do remote 'bug-hunting' via SSH or so also sounded like a pro to her.

Lately I visited a friend of mine; 25 year old male. When the Windows-virus scanner told him in one of the biggest red fonts I ever saw "Your computer contains viruses" his only reaction was "Gotta be kidding, like I didn't knew that!" and he happily continued browsing. I told him he should find a crack for the expired trial virus-scanner*; wanting to help him (believe it or not; a lot of people of my age are really afraid to switch to anything else. Seeing me using Gentoo isn't a good introduction to Linux also). But he didn't understand all that, it sounded like to much work; and he didn't give much about it as long as his nzb's continued to download. Yeah, he found out how to do the latter one, something even I always struggle with. Learning, it's all about what your priorities are I suggest.

*Coming soon to you: Scrabble™ Windows(R) edition. How many points would that be, expiredtrialvirusscanner ?

So, now I confessed. I'm lame. Too lame to switch my parents, sister and friend to Linux. Phew, I feel bad, I have to empty the refrigerator and fill my stomach now.
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tracyanne ·
Well TC I'm knock knock knockin on 60's door. And like a fine wine I get better with age.
caitlyn ·
I'm a year away from 50. I'm trying to figure out a way to change the nature of time and put off the day... No luck so far.
Borax_Man ·
Quoting: If the definition of freedom in using an OS is by what applications you can install, then Windows is probably the most Free OS you can use. I don't agree with that though. I think freedom in an OS is me deciding how, when, where, and if I use my computer, not the OS supplier. Under that definition Windows is not very free and OSX is even less.
How exactly is Windows restrictive? Apart from the product activation and licenses, you can run it as much as you like on an installed system, where you like when you like.

Quoting: The reason to market Linux is to people get exposure to it. Just like the is marketing for other categories of things, beef, cheese, milk, cotton, etc. So when people go into make a decision they have some information. Though marketing Distro's is just as important, if not more.

If you make a choice with only have the available information then you did not freely make the choice.


They have such ads here, for beef, banana's etc. Ads for the product, but not any specific brand. They are done by vested interests who profit from sales, but they are not for your benefit. They are to implant thoughts into your head, and grab some of your mental real estate which every marketer in the country is competing for. So when you walk into the supermarket, you have memory of the dancing butchers chanting "High in Iron" which will inflience your decision. You would know about beef and banana's without annoying jingles and ads alerting you to the fact they exist.

eople don't want to choose distros anyway. What would you base the choice on? If you just wanted to use Linux, the amount of time you would have to spend learning the different nuances between distros (which to you would seem pointless and subtle) would essentially be the first shackle you come accross. Before you've even begun to install Linux, you've already lost some of your time to have to learn about distros, simply because some technophiles think that forking an OS many times is great, and that everyone should have the same zeal in 'learning' about the OS that they do.

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gus3 ·
Quoting:Apart from the product activation and licenses, you can run it as much as you like on an installed system, where you like when you like.
The simple fact that Microsoft intended to restrict the number of programs running on Windows 7-based netbooks flies in the face of that statement. What you are, and are not, allowed to run on Windows is entirely up to the whim of Microsoft.
hkwint ·
Quoting:How exactly is Windows restrictive?


You should read the EULA. [url=http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows Vista_Ultimate_English_36d0fe99-75e4-4875-8153-889cf5105718.pdf]http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows Vis...[/url]

At least 'where you like' is not true given term 20; 'how you like' is not true given term 9 and 10, 'how much you like' is not true given term 1 and 4 of 'additional license terms' and 10 of the general terms. 'When you like' is not true for stuff like OOXML for which the license is not perpetual.
jdixon ·
> Apart from the product activation and licenses, you can run it as much as you like on an installed system, where you like when you like.

Unless the Windows Activation servers go down, or misidentify your system as using a pirated version.

> What would you base the choice on?

Well, when I started using Linux (1994), the choice was a lot simpler, and the obvious distro then was the one I'm still using. :)
caitlyn ·
The argument seems to boil down to people don't want to make choices. They want choices made for them or at least they should only have simple choices. That sounds like how totalitarian governments justify themselves. We know what's best for you. Trust us. Uh huh...

People don't want to choose distros? Most people don't know what a distro is if you're talking about the masses. Just as people learn to choose between Macintosh and Fuji and Gala and Roma apples they'll learn to choose what distro is tastiest for them or just run whatever comes preloaded on their machines. My netbook came preloaded with Ubuntu Netbook Remix which just plain works and is very much ready for the masses. With good quality preloaded systems people can accept the default or become educated and make choices. At least they have the freedom to choose, something Microsoft does not provide.
tracyanne ·
Slightly out in left field.

My partner and I have just unpacked after having been at a computer fair in the bay. We had a stand there Feral Penguin Computers. We had two laptops (a netbook and a full size laptop) and two desktops all promoting Linux (in it's Ubuntu incarnation).

The netbook, my BenQ, is running Ubuntu Netbook Remix (Jaunty) the Fulsized laptop a brand new (1 month old) HP Presario, that a customer had asked me to upgrade to Linux, and loaned to me for the show by the same customer, is running Ubuntu (Jaunty) with the Full 3D desktop), as is one of the Desktops, an Asus with AMD 64 bit, (it's about 12 months old), also loaned to me by a customer for the show (also running the 3D desktop on a 22 inch Dell Monitor), an an older HP Pavilion running XUbuntu (Jaunty).

What surprised me was the number of people who not only stopped to look, but also stopped to enquire, and learn. even more surprising we picked up 4 customers, plus a young bloke (10 year old) who already has Ubuntu on his laptop, who wants to learn how to program on Linux.
gus3 ·
tracyanne, if cloning humans ever becomes legal, can you be first in line? We need about 200 more of you to send around.

"Linux" doesn't need marketing

Libervis ·
I completely agree with your article Hans. :)

My argument was basically that there is no such thing as a concrete "Linux OS" and that marketing it as such is a marketing fail. So saying that Linux doesn't need marketing is even in that context completely true. I would say not only does it not need marketing, but it would be a bad idea to do specifically *Linux* marketing, because then you don't know what exactly are you marketing since "Linux" is not a single thing, unless you're specifically referring to the kernel.

The examples you mentioned are all examples of either marketing a specific *Linux based OS* or a specific *Linux based device*. That was my point and that's what I wanted to encourage. Market specific *Linux based* products, from operating systems to compete head on with Windows (like Ubuntu OS, Fedora OS, PCLinuxOS, Mint OS etc. etc.) to devices which use components from the Linux ecosystem (and larger FOSS ecosystem). Google already does it for the embedded devices. They don't market Linux and then say Android is a Linux distro (which it technically is). Instead they market Android, a specific product or platform.

You basically just proved my whole point and I thank you. I think this line of thinking will help a lot of people interested in "marketing" to know how exactly to approach it with respect to Linux, and the lesson is: Don't market Linux, market the products which use Linux.
caitlyn ·
When I saw the title I was sure I was going to disagree and write a response to Hans. Now that I've read it I have to say that he has a point. More correctly, Linux doesn't need generic marketing as if it was one unified product but rather Linux devices and solutions. That is still marketing Linux. It's just a different sort of marketing. So... I still disagree but he works from a very reasonable premise and lays out a very real hurdle to marketing Linux per se.

It is possible to market a distribution which has a more limited meaning than Linux. Canonical clearly does market Ubuntu and does so pretty darned well. They are marketing Ubuntu specifically, not Linux generically.

Ultimately Linux does need marketing but that marketing needs to be contextualized. I can point to any number of netbooks running any number of distributions and then point to the same model running Windows XP and demonstrate that the Linux version is faster and can do more, particularly once you add antivirus, anti-spyware, and a personal firewall to the Windows box to bring the level of security up close to where the Linux box is to start with. I can demonstrate that the Linux box is a complete solution while the Windows box needs more software added which adds to the cost. I can argue successfully that the Linux box is a better choice regardless of distribution.

Linux really does need marketing. The problems Hans identifies are very real and create special hurdles to Linux marketing that are very real. That doesn't mean the marketing doesn't need to be done. Otherwise people will stick with what they know even if other choices are available. That means Windows continues to dominate which, to me, if a far less than optimal outcome.
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number6x ·
Cotton, the fabric of our lives Linux, the kernel of the tubes

Pork, the other white meat Linux, the other OS (No, not Mac, The other other OS)

Just Do It! Just Use It!

Spoon! I got nothin'
Sander_Marechal ·
I always thought Emacs was the other, other OS...

/me ducks
jdixon ·
I've always liked "Linux, the choice of a GNU generation".
azerthoth ·
Sander your safe now, I think jd just got all the tomato's redirected at him.
hkwint ·
Quoting:Ultimately Linux does need marketing but that marketing needs to be contextualized.


Exactly what I thought Caitlyn, but it was too long for a title; you probably know how these things go. Another, probably better title would have been 'Marketing is not what Linux needs the most right now'. But hey, you gotta stir some discussion isn't it?

Linux could use some marketing to speed up adoption, that's probably true. But if you would like to speed up Linux adoption, there are other things needing more attention. A legal framework in which OEM's are forced to have a simple method of refunding unused software such as Windows is one, but I touched that topic too often and think people are bored of that talk nowadays, especially when it comes from me.

The other thing Linux needs for the big audience to work on the desktop would be to decrease fragmentation of efforts and projects, is my guess.

Only after that I'd put marketing.
Libervis ·
This thread must have internal cognitive dissonance.. or is employing doublethink. :P

First it is agreed that "Linux doesn't need marketing", but specific Linux based things do and then now there's talk again about Linux marketing. Few posts down the road and nobody will have any idea where they started and everyone will be discussing Linux marketing as if it was generic...

If it's contextualized, by which I suppose it is meant that "we advertise a *product* which has a Linux kernel in it, NOT the Linux kernel itself and "Linux as an OS" (a fallacy), then we can't even refer to that as "Linux marketing" anymore without causing confusion, or maybe we can, but should be careful to be a little more explicit about what we're talking about. I guess that would involve specifying what our goal is. We want to promote products and operating systems which use the Linux kernel, the GNU userland and include mostly Free Open Source Software, right?

That understood decreasing fragmentation of efforts and projects is actually irrelevant to the goal because we're no longer looking at "Linux" as The One Thing to be advertised. Unification becomes largely irrelevant as far as marketing is concerned. Let there be multiple package managers, desktop environments etc.. We aren't advertising all of them at once. They're different components for different products for different audiences and thus require marketing specific to each of them. Let diversity then continue to bring innovation, no pressure applied.

In a sense what I'm arguing for is disassembling the concept of Linux as a single community, a single product, a single anything aside from the kernel itself. Just as I once realized there really is no such thing as a Linux community (but rather many little communities who just happen to use something hooked to the Linux kernel) today I am realizing there is no such thing as a single Linux... anything.. an OS, a product, whatever you want. Calling it an ecosystem is as far as you get to some approximation of reality. But if you wanna advertise an ecosystem what you're really advertising is a kernel, the GNU Project or the FOSS licensing, nothing more.
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caitlyn ·
"Linux as an OS" is not a fallacy. Distributions which package things with the Linux kernel to create an OS are, by the Linux community, the wider IT sphere, and indeed anyone in the general public who is at all computer savvy, are generically called "Linux". The Linux OS (no, not GNU Linux, as most of it isn't GNU) refers to the completed product. I know you don't agree, Libervis, but you are most definitely in the minority on this one.

In that broad context Linux needs marketing, period. When doing contextual marketing, meaning marketing of a distribution or of a Linux device or system, the advantages of using Linux over the competition need to be touted. That is plain, old fashioned marketing of Linux (generic) done in a way that sells a specific product. Within that sort of context Linux (generic OS) does need to be marketed, period.
Libervis ·
> The Linux OS (no, not GNU Linux, as most of it isn't GNU) refers to the completed product.

Most of it isn't Linux either so on the same basis on which you discount "GNU" you can discount "Linux". Of course, the difference (only one it seems) is that Linux is simply a more popular term.

Though I'm not arguing the FSF's points here and insisting it be called "GNU/Linux". Technically my position isn't necessarily so much about terminology as much about a marketing focus. Terminology just happens to be a big part of marketing (branding basically).

Also, you don't have to brand all Linux based distributions as a "Linux OS" to do generic branding. It's enough to call it Linux and when asked just refer to an "ecosystem" or some other term which *clearly* implies that it is not a single product, but rather a multitude of things with certain common characteristics. That's a lot better than presenting all distros at once as if they were a single one (which is how most people understand the meaning of an OS, the way we Linux geeks understand a single distro).

Bottom line, if you want to advertise generically, advertise it as a Linux Ecosystem (TM?). Makes sense? :)

Edit: Just to clarify.. once we push the connotation between the term "Linux" and the term "Ecosystem" even when someone uses the term "Linux OS" to describe, for instance, Ubuntu, they are more likely to mean something like "Microsoft OS" than something like "Windows OS". Basically, when someone calls it a "Linux OS", they will mean "an OS that uses components from the Linux Ecosystem, just like when someone says a "Microsoft OS" they mean "an OS made by Microsoft".
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Marketing is ineffective if your product has no shelf space

Dietrich ·
I've been actively discussing this issue over at ZDNet.

The thread at ZDNet:

http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-10535-0.html?forumID=1&thread...

My contention (in the U.S.) is that MS violates Section 5 of the FTC Act (Tying).

In the U.S., where retail store point of sale is concerned, consumer choice is intentionally being limited.

MS is guilty of 'Tying' their software to the sale of OEM PCs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tying_(commerce)

This is anti-trust anti-competitive and anti-consumer choice.

A consumer *should* have the choice to go to a store (walk-in, not the Internet) select and purchase a PC with or without an O/S present.

See the white paper study entitled Revitalizing Section 5 of the FTC Act Using Consumer Choice Analysis here:

http://www.abanet.org/antitrust/at-source/09/02/Feb09-Lande2...

Citing in particular, beginning on page 6:

==================================================== 3. Incipient Exclusive Dealing and Tying Violations.

There is substantial uncertainty over the market share required to establish a tying violation, and the amount of foreclosure necessary for an exclusive dealing violation.31 Similar uncertainty exists over how much pressure or inducement, in the form of a discount or other conduct, must exist before an arrangement will be termed a "tying" or "exclusive dealing" arrangement.32 The traditional market share requirements and degree of certainty over whether an effective tie or exclusive dealing arrangement should be found to exist should be relaxed when the case involves a defendant with a significantly larger market share than that of the plaintiff. In these "incipient" tying or exclusive dealing situations, incumbents often will be able to disadvantage significantly smaller competitors or would-be entrants because their market share is larger, even if it is not large enough for a traditional Sherman Act violation. Suppose, for example, a company introduces a new brand of super-premium ice cream. Suppose also that an existing seller of super-premium ice cream has 30 percent of this market, and also another 30 percent of the premium and non-premium ice cream markets. Then suppose the incumbent firm tells supermarkets that they have to choose between the established firm's products and the newcomer's products. No efficiencies would arise if the established firm's demands were met.

These facts, including defendant's low market share, would be unlikely to constitute either a tying or exclusive dealing case. Moreover, market definition and market power or foreclosure issues would be extremely difficult, lengthy, and costly to litigate. However, if the incumbent?s exclusionary strategy succeeded, consumer choice in this market, in terms of varieties of ice cream on the market, would be diminished for the short term. Moreover, successful exclusion would risk diminishing incentives to innovate and enter by non-incumbents in the long term. This conduct should violate Section 5 as an incipient exclusive dealing or tying arrangement.

The consumer choice framework helps explain why incipient tying and exclusive dealing arrangements should violate Section 5. Its focus on actual or potential choice in the marketplace should also increase predictability for the business community and make it more likely that reviewing courts would uphold the Commission's determinations. Moreover, treating incipient exclusive dealing or tying arrangements as a violation of Section 5 would advance international harmonization in an increasingly globalized economy by beneficially moving U.S. antitrust law in the direction of European Union competition law.

Conclusion

In conclusion, Section 5 of the FTC Act should be interpreted to be significantly broader than the other antitrust laws. But this expansive mandate only should be used within the consumer choice framework.

====================================================

Consumers don't have choice in the U.S. and that must change.

Dietrich T. Schmitz http://www.dtschmitz.com Twitter: @dtschmitz
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azerthoth ·
OK, I understand the reasoning behind your market control arguments, but what in the wide wide world of sports does that have to do with linux marketing?

I wont go into the self promotion at the end.

p.s. as to marketing having no effect w/o shelf space ... thats bunk just on its face, as proven by billy mays and the multi billion dollar available only through TV ads and not in stores model. Then there are several internet only models to choose from that are as effective.
Sander_Marechal ·
Quoting:Then suppose the incumbent firm tells supermarkets that they have to choose between the established firm's products and the newcomer's products.


You won't catch Microsoft doing that (anymore). That's the problem. MS stopped saying to OEMs that they can only ship Windows and no other OS back when the US DoJ got involved. These days, it is strongly suspected that MS gives discounts on Windows prices to OEMs who only ship Windows, but there's no proof. The problem is that the razon thin margins in the OEM business mean that OEMs really need that discount in order to be competitive in the Windows PC market. Even if Linux would reach 10% sales then still 90% would be Windows PC sales so OEMs would still really need that discount.
hkwint ·
Quoting:That's the problem. MS stopped saying to OEMs that they can only ship Windows and no other OS back when the US DoJ got involved.


Do we have proves or sources demonstrating that? Ken's story (about BlackHawk @ Dell) suggests otherwise.

Quoting:but what in the wide wide world of sports does that have to do with linux marketing?


I raised the point that Linux marketing is fruitless if people cannot choose to buy Linux without buying Windows. But I didn't want to elaborate on the latter as I think most people are tired of me starting that entire discussion all over without anything having been changed in the last decade.

Quoting:p.s. as to marketing having no effect w/o shelf space ... thats bunk just on its face,


I guess you shouldn't take that literally, it's just that there are (almost?) no Linux computers on the shelf space that don't require you to buy Windows. Yes, there are if you buy from small companies, but those don't benefit from the scale advantages that Del etc. benefit from, so there's no level playing field I'd suggest.
tuxchick ·
Gah, the right-hand margin is cut off because of Dietrich's post. Dear Dietrich, if you are actually engaging in discussion here and not just hitting-and-running, please delete a few hundred of those equals signs. thanks, me.
jdixon ·
> ...MS is guilty of 'Tying' their software to the sale of OEM PCs.

Well, duh. Now, prove it. The current agreements between Microsoft and the various OEM's are top secret, and any OEM who lets them out into the wild will probably pay dearly. The only way your going to see those agreements is with a court order, and I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to have fake agreements in place ready to hand out to the court.
tuxchick ·
Proof is the sticky part. I've been told verbally that it is so by friends in the business, but nobody will go on record.

Yay, page is fixed, thanks dietrich!
dinotrac ·
YAWWWWWNNNNN!!!!!

Perhaps somebody has missed the fact that Dell and others have offered Linux PCs for some time, or

that the first wave of netbooks were Linux-only.

Microsoft's best argument --

Look!! A whole segment of computers offered to the public with Linux only. We make Windows available as an alternative, and everybody wants it.

In another thread, I described how a lovely little Dell Mini-9 with Ubuntu came into my hands because the buyer couldn't tether his Treo-750 to it, something he could do with no trouble whatsoever on a Windows version of the same machine. He wants Windows boxes and Windows boxes only.

There is no law against giving people what they want, and no tying if vendors can offere other OS's.

The customer is always right (and I'm not)

hkwint ·
What I failed to communicate when writing the article about 'Linux doesn't need marketing', is that it especially is the view of the ones who DO market Linux-devices, and it's not especially _my_ view.

However, both Google, nowadays Intel, LiMo, Philips, TiVo, Sony; they are all Linux-customers. When their view seems to be Linux doesn't need marketing and given their reasons (which is not written anywhere except for LiMo, it's just a logical conclusion when watching their behaviour), I thought "Yes, they're right".

The discussions that evolved over here gives good arguments why Linux - as a general brand - _does_ need marketing. Introduction in classes at schools, brand awareness, awareness of an alternative, that's the kind of things which are important, and to a certain degree I do agree. However, as I tried to explain, lack of general Linux-brand marketing it's not the most important thing that's holding Linux back right now.

Back to the customer is right:

"Always connected", "Instant On", "3D graphics", "Always on", "Built in GPS", "Intuitive interface", "Full Web browsing", "easy to share", "Rich Multimedia", as what does that sound to you?

If your first thought is "Linux" you're right. But they don't mention it. Nor do they mention their own name, like Intel likes to do (Intel inside). No, they know their customers. They know their customers don't care about freaking names they (may have) never heard before. They know their customers care about a smart netbook which is characterized by; well, the list mentioned above.

Now wait what the next 'itrunsbetterwithwindows' response will be (hosted[1] with GPL sofware[2] and not Silverlight, noticed?) Wannasee the 2 min Linux-advertisement that doesn't mention Linux nor the company itself? It's here:

http://www.hellosmartbook.com/index.html

[1] http://itsbetterwithwindows.com/ [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowplayer
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