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Intel® Linux™ versus Microsoft® Windows
I once enjoyed life as an executive, especially the conceptual aspects of the game. During one phase, we used to discuss vicious cycles which led to living in a box. We needed to think outside the lines. We also discovered that the instructions on how to get out of the box were written on the outside of the box. That riddle created Satori which brought about innovation. Andy Grove used to contribute to the global conceptual conversation with terms like recognizing an inflection point. He seems to have schooled his pupils at Intel well. They know the intricacies of finding a vision, aligning on outcomes and disseminating their discoveries. This leads us to one of Intel's significant discoveries on how to grow their business without Microsoft's governance. Thinking outside the box, they have gone into large populated areas of the globe with little to no PC adoption and set themselves up to sell more products than ever before. You might find it a brilliant strategy. Intel opened technical hubs in China, India, Brazil and Egypt. Originally, Intel called these "platform definition centers" and promoted them as their commitment to the global channel. They discussed how they assisted OEM manufacturers in these locales in creating opportunities. So far, Intel doesn't seem to pose a threat to Microsoft's dominance in the global desktop market. But if you dig a little deeper, you'll discover in certain markets, Intel may have escaped Redmond's grasp and dominance. A document titled Government-Assisted PC Programs and Open Source Software: Lessons from the Intel Experience starts with an interesting subtitle:
Wait just a minute. Did you read what I just quoted? Intel has experience in helping design Government-Assisted PC Programs with Linux? That's not exactly what they wrote. They wrote that they assisted technology vendors and software developers. OK, that shouldn't run against the grain of Microsoft. If you look at the quote they also included policy-makers. Would that include people like Sergio Amadeu of Brazil's Information Technology Institute or Ma Lin of the Beijing Municipal Science and Technology Committee? What other policy makers has Intel helped and how? If we read a little further into the document we see:
The document goes on to explain detailed information of how to set up a GAPP and what pitfalls to avoid. It gives further information of the types of programs people can use. Like: The case for GAPPs is straightforward. As an ICT foundation is built and citizens become more technology savvy, a country boosts its productivity and competitiveness. Efforts to lay this foundation usually begin by identifying a GAPP target population segment: Perhaps the most telling sign of Intel's strategy comes when the document states that: Some expect the Microsoft Windows* market share, today well in excess of 90 percent worldwide, to erode in the coming years. Market share for Mac OS X* is expected to remain flat and demand for every other non-Microsoft desktop operating system is expected to dwindle. So Linux, already the fastest growing desktop operating system, is poised to continue making desktop inroads. Intel walking on the edge of a sword?My experience with both companies shows that Intel has a significant edge over Microsoft in every area of technology. If Intel sees Microsoft's market share eroding, then they will flow with the trend and speed it up to benefit their shareholders. To grow their business, Intel will also go where people don't want Microsoft trying to run their governments. Or as a petition in Brazil says:
Some countries will not allow Microsoft to try to run their governments unlike the US or the European Union. In the long-term, many analysts, including me, believe Microsoft will become irrelevant. But today, Intel depends on Microsoft. Even a hint of Microsoft changing horses could hurt Intel significantly. For example, Microsoft could give Dell the OK to use AMD processors. Intel picking up steamIn the article about Intel offering low-cost PC's in rural China published yesterday, we showed how the platform definition center has turned into a full-blown business.
Intel has also established a Client Linux Resource Center. You can find a remarkable amount of information about Intel and Linux at the site. While examining the site, I found extensive information below the fold. For example, on a page called Open Source Resource you will see: You've decided you want freedom of choice for your software solutions, and Intel is here to help you succeed. Whether you are a business, a government agency, educational institution, software developer, or Intel channel member, here is where you can find information about Intel® platforms, Linux*, and open source software. Topics covered extensively include: On the Intel Client Linux Resource Center page, you will find a variety of tools. For example, one of those tools allows you to download quick start kits. The website shows:
Intel has invested significantly in their Linux initiative. They have approached the market correctly by cooperating with Governments in India, China, Brazil and other countries. They have put money to work in those places so that the countries involved become self-sufficient. In China, the PC's Intel makes are high quality, low priced units. For example the system in rural China costs $350 and has Linux as the "user-friendly" OS. The press in the United States has missed the boat. Intel has contradicted the Microsoft story and is proving Linux works. In doing so, we believe Intel has found a way out of the vicious cycle of Microsoft's world. What's next?Perhaps we should ask, what's left? If what we see in China works and we have no reason to believe it will not, Intel stepped out of the box. Not only would they free themselves from Microsoft, they could become the dominant global PC market maker. That would free Intel from the demands of HP. Dell, IBM and others. They could allow AMD to become Microsoft's best friend as Redmond becomes irrelevant over the next five years. In August 2005, Intel made an announcement that got little of the explosive press attention that generally accompanies significant technology events:
While quietly, Intel extricates itself from the grip of a partner who believes it has an entitlement to everything in the world. |
Comments (70)
I had to read it twice...
Pretty great article. all right! Excellent work. Well-written and nicely organized. The implications are huge- this is not the 'death by a thousand cuts' threat that Linux represents, but a much bigger, potentially more catastrophic threat to microsoft. Think about it: if a hardware vendor with the size and influence of Intel succeeds in opening these overseas markets, many more hardware vendors will follow- RAM, graphics, NIC, mobos, plus all the peripherals, the scanners, printers, cameras- this could be the wedge that breaks microshaft's grip.
But it won't mean the end of Microsoft. Quite the opposite- once you get people buying computers, the market broadens for everyone. But I doubt that the current leadership of microsoft sees this, since they seem to be pathologically bent on owning the world by any means except merit and good service. Anyone remember the Aesop's fable about the dog crossing the bridge? He had a bone in his mouth. When he saw his reflection in the water, he thought it was another dog with a bone, and tried to take it away. Of course by snapping at his own reflection he lost everything.
But it won't mean the end of Microsoft. Quite the opposite- once you get people buying computers, the market broadens for everyone. But I doubt that the current leadership of microsoft sees this, since they seem to be pathologically bent on owning the world by any means except merit and good service. Anyone remember the Aesop's fable about the dog crossing the bridge? He had a bone in his mouth. When he saw his reflection in the water, he thought it was another dog with a bone, and tried to take it away. Of course by snapping at his own reflection he lost everything.
Tuxchick....The ramifications for increase in Linux Development alone makes my hands shake...and no I am not over-reacting. This is...this is a neck-jarring left turn. No, it won't mean the end of MS...It means a catastrophic outbreak of Linux. As you pointed out: many more hardware vendors will follow- RAM, graphics, NIC, mobos, plus all the peripherals, the scanners, printers, cameras- this could be the wedge that breaks microshaft's grip.
And I have to sleep tonight...good luck with that.
helios
And I have to sleep tonight...good luck with that.
helios
What did Microsoft ever do to you?
13 earlier comments in the full thread.
"Pat Boone In A Metal Mood: No More Mr. Nice Guy"
Tuxchick,
Imagine how we Americans with even a hint of sophistication feel about that one :)
Tuxchick,
Imagine how we Americans with even a hint of sophistication feel about that one :)
"Should I go on (more generally about 'sophisticated' people in the US)?"
Hey hkwint, stop picking on our smallest minority!
Hey hkwint, stop picking on our smallest minority!
Microsoft were in the right place at the right time with a cheap windowing shell over cheap DOS available for cheap hardware. UNIX at the time needed hardware costing about ten times as much to run, so was only used industrially. Microsoft's had very little competition for graphical systems in the home and that competition was destroyed by various practices which have been proven in court.
As for programming. I ran away from Windows 3.1. It's programming interface was terrible in comparison to Linux's at the time. Linux was true 32 bit where Windows 3.1 was 16 bit. Linux had sensible division of responsibility between the shell and the program, where in Windows the program did everything leading to inconsistency between different programs. Linux had powerful scripting languages for simple tasks.
As for programmers - there are too many who don't have the knowledge they really need. Too many just happy to wire up controls in Visual Basic. I wonder how they're dealing with the conceptual shift to VBdotNet, though I think I have some understanding how. I've met programmers who don't understand recursion or other simple algorithms. I've met managers who are afraid of recursion. I've also met programmers who develop programs as single big classes with lots of global statics.
Yes the programmers are cheaper, and the development can be more rapid, but with the increased complexity of DotNet the end result seems full of problems and maintenance is a nightmare. I am always pleased when code I design or write responds to the inevitable change in requirements or additional features without breaking its model or needing a rewrite.
The following quote from the first reply:
"Do you really think Intel will abandon Microsoft? Not ever. If they're smart, they'll know who buttered their bread. Intel has done dumb things in the past and Microsoft always forgives them."
Sounds like the kind of racket that Microsoft are associated with.
As for programming. I ran away from Windows 3.1. It's programming interface was terrible in comparison to Linux's at the time. Linux was true 32 bit where Windows 3.1 was 16 bit. Linux had sensible division of responsibility between the shell and the program, where in Windows the program did everything leading to inconsistency between different programs. Linux had powerful scripting languages for simple tasks.
As for programmers - there are too many who don't have the knowledge they really need. Too many just happy to wire up controls in Visual Basic. I wonder how they're dealing with the conceptual shift to VBdotNet, though I think I have some understanding how. I've met programmers who don't understand recursion or other simple algorithms. I've met managers who are afraid of recursion. I've also met programmers who develop programs as single big classes with lots of global statics.
Yes the programmers are cheaper, and the development can be more rapid, but with the increased complexity of DotNet the end result seems full of problems and maintenance is a nightmare. I am always pleased when code I design or write responds to the inevitable change in requirements or additional features without breaking its model or needing a rewrite.
The following quote from the first reply:
"Do you really think Intel will abandon Microsoft? Not ever. If they're smart, they'll know who buttered their bread. Intel has done dumb things in the past and Microsoft always forgives them."
Sounds like the kind of racket that Microsoft are associated with.
avenger,
"UNIX people seem to hate the company that made the PC available, popularized it, took it to other countries around the world, made it user friendly, gave people an opportunity to make a living, simplified programming and made it possible for Linux to exist by giving Intel a market."
The company that did that was Compaq.
They reverse engineered the proprietary BIOS of the IBM PC.
This allowed for cheap clones to enter the market place.
Before the clones an IBM PC would cost you about $2,000.00 US, had almost no third party software, and ran some obscure clone of a clone of CP/M called 'pc/dos'.
In comparison, a APPLE ][ + cost $1,200.00, supported more memory, had tons of after market software titles, and about 90% market share for micro computer sales.
After Compaq reverse engineered the BIOS it was a different story. The hardware market was open to competition. Market economics lead to commoditization, standardization, and lower prices for consumers. Each IBM PC sold used to result in a big profit margin, after the clones profits were much slimmer, and have continued to fall as commoditization has continued.
This is very similar to the process happening in software due to F/OSS. The high profit margin vendors that depended on proprietary software lock-in are being competed out of existence by standardized low-cost commodity software. Profits for the new guys are razor thin, so there won't be any more software billionaires, but the consumers will see lower costs and higher profits for themselves and for their own businesses.
Microsoft did not give Intel a market, any more than Shell Oil gave Ford cars a market. People didn't buy cars because someone started building gas stations on the corner, the gas stations were built by competing fuel supliers trying to supply the car owners with fuel. Its important to remeber that those car owners could buy fuel from one of many suppliers, not just one monopoly!
The hardware came first creating a market for software. Without the cheap Intel based clones, there would have only been a small proprietary market for Microsoft. The creation of cheap "open" architecture Intel clones resulted in a much larger market for Microsoft to sell its goods in. That openness spurred creativity and innovation as well as doom for many closed hardware vendors. I think Apple is the only survivor from a field of over a dozen.
The same openness is now reducing the margins in the software market. There will be lower margins in the future, and many current vendors will cease to exist.
Sheesh, talk about revisionism, you really take the cake avenger. I hope you are a shill, because if you think that Microsoft created the market for Intel, you really have a very warped sense of reality
"UNIX people seem to hate the company that made the PC available, popularized it, took it to other countries around the world, made it user friendly, gave people an opportunity to make a living, simplified programming and made it possible for Linux to exist by giving Intel a market."
The company that did that was Compaq.
They reverse engineered the proprietary BIOS of the IBM PC.
This allowed for cheap clones to enter the market place.
Before the clones an IBM PC would cost you about $2,000.00 US, had almost no third party software, and ran some obscure clone of a clone of CP/M called 'pc/dos'.
In comparison, a APPLE ][ + cost $1,200.00, supported more memory, had tons of after market software titles, and about 90% market share for micro computer sales.
After Compaq reverse engineered the BIOS it was a different story. The hardware market was open to competition. Market economics lead to commoditization, standardization, and lower prices for consumers. Each IBM PC sold used to result in a big profit margin, after the clones profits were much slimmer, and have continued to fall as commoditization has continued.
This is very similar to the process happening in software due to F/OSS. The high profit margin vendors that depended on proprietary software lock-in are being competed out of existence by standardized low-cost commodity software. Profits for the new guys are razor thin, so there won't be any more software billionaires, but the consumers will see lower costs and higher profits for themselves and for their own businesses.
Microsoft did not give Intel a market, any more than Shell Oil gave Ford cars a market. People didn't buy cars because someone started building gas stations on the corner, the gas stations were built by competing fuel supliers trying to supply the car owners with fuel. Its important to remeber that those car owners could buy fuel from one of many suppliers, not just one monopoly!
The hardware came first creating a market for software. Without the cheap Intel based clones, there would have only been a small proprietary market for Microsoft. The creation of cheap "open" architecture Intel clones resulted in a much larger market for Microsoft to sell its goods in. That openness spurred creativity and innovation as well as doom for many closed hardware vendors. I think Apple is the only survivor from a field of over a dozen.
The same openness is now reducing the margins in the software market. There will be lower margins in the future, and many current vendors will cease to exist.
Sheesh, talk about revisionism, you really take the cake avenger. I hope you are a shill, because if you think that Microsoft created the market for Intel, you really have a very warped sense of reality
avenger:
I'm not totally sure why a lot of people are like you in that you always tend to stereotype the rest of the world outside of America (and probably G-8 countries) as non-sophisticated. What grounds do you have in saying that? You do not judge a certain society as simple based on their gross national product (which is in my country, rice) or their per capita income. Just because most of my countrymen or people from other countries similar to mine have not owned computers for the most part, it does not make them stupid or so base as to not know how to operate one.
In my case, I have had to install and configure my Linux PC without the benefit of a local user group or computer guru. Being one of the early adopters, I can only rely on a dial-up connection, Linux forums, and Google for help. A trip to IRC channels in freenode.net is futile, as most chatters there only talk amongst themselves and noobs are totally ignored. Even getting the dial-up modem to configure correctly is a hard task already (we mostly have winmodems in this country). Surely there's some semblance of computer sophistication in me somehow, right?
If you wanna know, Microsoft still markets in our "simple" country. It even takes pains to kill off software pirates and businesses using pirated software in preparation of Vista. Would you want to reconsider your analysis now?
I'd rather think that Linux is a more sophisticated OS than Windows. To be familiar and comfortable with the command line in itself takes a lot of learning and skill to understand (of course, I'm referring to casual PC users and not programmers). But if you wanna think that most G-8 citizens are, by birth, sophisticated, I respect that OPINION (I shudder at the thought of the sophistication level exhibited by a lot of forum posters with spelling like "dependancy" and "realy" and their most thought-out post would involve a flame on another poster), but I digress. In fairness, there are also other well-mannered people in forums.
The only reason Microsoft chooses to center its efforts on G-8 countries more is that people of those countries have the buying power. We in other less-developed countries would not have pirates in our midst if we also had money to buy original software. We also get our PCs usually by buying parts separately and assemble it, so there isn't much Microsoft can do to preload our PCs with Windows. Yes, there are still entities like HP and such who sells prebuilt PCs, but I highly doubt that they make a killing in that endeavor.
To answer your question about what Microsoft ever did for me, I would have to say that while Microsoft first introduced me to graphical computing in Windows '95, for which I am grateful for, there's not much else they did good for me.
I can only recall the many times I've had to retype large portions of my work due to the BSOD I get every so often (and that's even with the Autosave option ticked). It could be my own fault for not saving often, but do I really have to save my work every 5 minutes or so? That certainly puts a crimp on the groove you get into when you're typing. I can also point to the oh-so-many trojans and malware that has infected my system, causing me to reinstall Windows (as well as other programs) every once in a while. And to think I don't even go to porn sites or warez sites. Also, Windows runs slowly for me compared to Linux. On the same system, Linux runs faster, even with all the eye-candy configured, to Windows with only the base install. And maybe it's because of the "bloat" people talk about, an equally-capable Linux install with the programs I want and need would take only around 4 gigs of space as opposed to the 20 gigs I need for Windows and the programs I want and need. Those 16 gigs would certainly be useful to archive photos and videos instead. And lastly, the unethical business practices of Microsoft also affects me and other end-users.
While you may think that only other software companies Microsoft has annihilated/bought off are those affected, I'd like to think in terms of what could have been. And those what-could-have-beens may certainly turn out to be better software for us users. Good thing there's open source now.
I'm not totally sure why a lot of people are like you in that you always tend to stereotype the rest of the world outside of America (and probably G-8 countries) as non-sophisticated. What grounds do you have in saying that? You do not judge a certain society as simple based on their gross national product (which is in my country, rice) or their per capita income. Just because most of my countrymen or people from other countries similar to mine have not owned computers for the most part, it does not make them stupid or so base as to not know how to operate one.
In my case, I have had to install and configure my Linux PC without the benefit of a local user group or computer guru. Being one of the early adopters, I can only rely on a dial-up connection, Linux forums, and Google for help. A trip to IRC channels in freenode.net is futile, as most chatters there only talk amongst themselves and noobs are totally ignored. Even getting the dial-up modem to configure correctly is a hard task already (we mostly have winmodems in this country). Surely there's some semblance of computer sophistication in me somehow, right?
If you wanna know, Microsoft still markets in our "simple" country. It even takes pains to kill off software pirates and businesses using pirated software in preparation of Vista. Would you want to reconsider your analysis now?
I'd rather think that Linux is a more sophisticated OS than Windows. To be familiar and comfortable with the command line in itself takes a lot of learning and skill to understand (of course, I'm referring to casual PC users and not programmers). But if you wanna think that most G-8 citizens are, by birth, sophisticated, I respect that OPINION (I shudder at the thought of the sophistication level exhibited by a lot of forum posters with spelling like "dependancy" and "realy" and their most thought-out post would involve a flame on another poster), but I digress. In fairness, there are also other well-mannered people in forums.
The only reason Microsoft chooses to center its efforts on G-8 countries more is that people of those countries have the buying power. We in other less-developed countries would not have pirates in our midst if we also had money to buy original software. We also get our PCs usually by buying parts separately and assemble it, so there isn't much Microsoft can do to preload our PCs with Windows. Yes, there are still entities like HP and such who sells prebuilt PCs, but I highly doubt that they make a killing in that endeavor.
To answer your question about what Microsoft ever did for me, I would have to say that while Microsoft first introduced me to graphical computing in Windows '95, for which I am grateful for, there's not much else they did good for me.
I can only recall the many times I've had to retype large portions of my work due to the BSOD I get every so often (and that's even with the Autosave option ticked). It could be my own fault for not saving often, but do I really have to save my work every 5 minutes or so? That certainly puts a crimp on the groove you get into when you're typing. I can also point to the oh-so-many trojans and malware that has infected my system, causing me to reinstall Windows (as well as other programs) every once in a while. And to think I don't even go to porn sites or warez sites. Also, Windows runs slowly for me compared to Linux. On the same system, Linux runs faster, even with all the eye-candy configured, to Windows with only the base install. And maybe it's because of the "bloat" people talk about, an equally-capable Linux install with the programs I want and need would take only around 4 gigs of space as opposed to the 20 gigs I need for Windows and the programs I want and need. Those 16 gigs would certainly be useful to archive photos and videos instead. And lastly, the unethical business practices of Microsoft also affects me and other end-users.
While you may think that only other software companies Microsoft has annihilated/bought off are those affected, I'd like to think in terms of what could have been. And those what-could-have-beens may certainly turn out to be better software for us users. Good thing there's open source now.
I do not know if I am prepared to respond to your statement. I don't generalize and say "people like you". I cannot explain why you have any anger at "people in G-8" countries for your circumstances. I do not believe that "other people" caused your situation.
Whatever situation you find yourself in, you should do whatever you can to find social mobility. I'm a black man in America. My parents graduated from college, found jobs and worked and saved so I could go to college. I had to work and financed my education. I paid off my loans early. I have no idea what it was like for my grandparents becaue by the time I was born, segregation was over in the US.
I expect that with the growth of technology and the charity of countries like mine, that people in countries like your own are only a generation or two away from being out of poverty. I just believe that you have to take personal responsibility for your situation and do what you can to rise above the circumstances.
I find it difficult to associate your circumstances with mine because I live in an industrialized nation. My family and friends live in the same culture. I can't identify with you and I suppose that a large American corporation like Microsoft cannot identify with you. Then just sell computer products.
If Linux makes it easier to learn to use a computer, then I can't argue with that. I'm not selling Microsoft. I still don't know what they did to you.
Whatever situation you find yourself in, you should do whatever you can to find social mobility. I'm a black man in America. My parents graduated from college, found jobs and worked and saved so I could go to college. I had to work and financed my education. I paid off my loans early. I have no idea what it was like for my grandparents becaue by the time I was born, segregation was over in the US.
I expect that with the growth of technology and the charity of countries like mine, that people in countries like your own are only a generation or two away from being out of poverty. I just believe that you have to take personal responsibility for your situation and do what you can to rise above the circumstances.
I find it difficult to associate your circumstances with mine because I live in an industrialized nation. My family and friends live in the same culture. I can't identify with you and I suppose that a large American corporation like Microsoft cannot identify with you. Then just sell computer products.
If Linux makes it easier to learn to use a computer, then I can't argue with that. I'm not selling Microsoft. I still don't know what they did to you.
Microsoft don't have to have personally hurt me in order for me to strongly dislike them. Their tactics, behaviour and attitude are quite sufficient. They tell lies, they're not the only company that does so and they're not the only company I dislike.
I think that any company that influences policy for it's own ends should be disbanded immediately. Just like any company that out-sources overseas should be punished severely. This isn't about service. Microsoft et al wouldn't p*ss on you if you were on fire, they want your money, they want your children's money and they'll break laws, tell lies, run smear campaigns and threaten and bully anyone in order to continue collecting that money.
Take the XBox. It has 5.1 sound - that doesn't work without the special adapter available from Microsoft for an extra charge. It has a DVD player - that also doesn't work without the special adapter - available for an exra charge. It's internet ready - but, yes you guessed it, more money for Microsoft for the special adapter. You can play with other people - if you go and buy an extra controller. So we see, it's not about providing people with anything, it's about Microsoft modularising everything and charging extra for each module. If you are happy with this as a business model then there's something wrong with you. If Microsoft made cars you'd get a chassis, bodywork and maybe some windows but you'd have to pay extra for the engine and the wheels and you'd have to pay Microsoft per mile every time you went out in it.
And finally, picking on people because they make spelling mistakes is pathetic.
Take the XBox. It has 5.1 sound - that doesn't work without the special adapter available from Microsoft for an extra charge. It has a DVD player - that also doesn't work without the special adapter - available for an exra charge. It's internet ready - but, yes you guessed it, more money for Microsoft for the special adapter. You can play with other people - if you go and buy an extra controller. So we see, it's not about providing people with anything, it's about Microsoft modularising everything and charging extra for each module. If you are happy with this as a business model then there's something wrong with you. If Microsoft made cars you'd get a chassis, bodywork and maybe some windows but you'd have to pay extra for the engine and the wheels and you'd have to pay Microsoft per mile every time you went out in it.
And finally, picking on people because they make spelling mistakes is pathetic.
avenger: if, after all the replies you received, you still don't understand what Microsoft did to us (to us all, including you, but you seem to be so used to it you don't realise it is *not* normal to be treated that way), you'll probably never understand it. You've been pointed out a number of times that your beliefs about what Microsoft did for computing were incorrect (by people who were *there*, in the industry, when it happened), and yet you refuse to listen. At this point, this is not lack of understanding anymore. It's active refusal to understand. And we have no need for someone who asks questions but refuses to listen to the answers.
And if you really can't fathom our reasons, then you have a big problem, because it means you have no idea what your rights as a consumer and citizen are, and you believe the way you are treated right now by such companies as Microsoft is ethically and legally correct. You're wrong on both counts.
I don't think it's worth carrying on this discussion. I have no interest in talking to someone who doesn't listen. Consider it the last comment I'll have on this thread.
And if you really can't fathom our reasons, then you have a big problem, because it means you have no idea what your rights as a consumer and citizen are, and you believe the way you are treated right now by such companies as Microsoft is ethically and legally correct. You're wrong on both counts.
I don't think it's worth carrying on this discussion. I have no interest in talking to someone who doesn't listen. Consider it the last comment I'll have on this thread.
Quoting: I cannot explain why you have any anger at "people in G-8" countries for your circumstances.
"Understand" would be a more precise wording.
Quoting:I do not believe that "other people" caused your situation.
Perhaps you were either unattentive or more likely your training in history was deficient at the schools you attended. Your beliefs are not fully supportable without even knowing what former colonial power was in charge (if any, a few nations escaped direct conquest) that skewed historical structure, economy and population solely for that power's benefit.
Avenger,
You state: "Whatever situation you find yourself in, you should do whatever you can to find social mobility. I'm a black man in America. My parents graduated from college, found jobs and worked and saved so I could go to college. I had to work and financed my education. I paid off my loans early. I have no idea what it was like for my grandparents because by the time I was born, segregation was over in the US."
If your remarks are honest, then I can only say that you are incredibly isolated from most of world's realities. Would that you had learned more from your parents and grandparents about the struggles they went through to get you to the 'comfy' position you are in today. You might then have a little more empathy or at least understanding of the situations in the rest of the world and in our own country. Some of your remarks are perfect examples of why many justly regard us as ugly Americans.
You then go on to say: "Further, the fact that Linux is marketed in third world countries means it can't win the hearts and minds of the more sophisticated computer buyers who live right here in the US!"
And Windows is also marked there, so, I guess that means they won't want that either? Come on Avenger, I thought you attended College... Missed the logic classes did you? And, The average computer user in the US just buys what he is told to buy. Just tell them that it's the latest, and greatest and that it runs games fast... No sophistication involved. Currently Linux is a much more sophisticated OS, and, the only difference you see is that it costs less, so it can't be any good. Talk about warped logic.
What you need to learn is that while people with more than superficial understanding are rare in any situation or location, the US has no patent on sophistication nor does a narrow understanding of technology and economics equate to any kind of sophistication. It the worst kind of insult to even hint that Americans or 'G-8' countries are the only sophisticated people. Sophisticated people do exist in America, but, you sir are not one of them.
You state: "Whatever situation you find yourself in, you should do whatever you can to find social mobility. I'm a black man in America. My parents graduated from college, found jobs and worked and saved so I could go to college. I had to work and financed my education. I paid off my loans early. I have no idea what it was like for my grandparents because by the time I was born, segregation was over in the US."
If your remarks are honest, then I can only say that you are incredibly isolated from most of world's realities. Would that you had learned more from your parents and grandparents about the struggles they went through to get you to the 'comfy' position you are in today. You might then have a little more empathy or at least understanding of the situations in the rest of the world and in our own country. Some of your remarks are perfect examples of why many justly regard us as ugly Americans.
You then go on to say: "Further, the fact that Linux is marketed in third world countries means it can't win the hearts and minds of the more sophisticated computer buyers who live right here in the US!"
And Windows is also marked there, so, I guess that means they won't want that either? Come on Avenger, I thought you attended College... Missed the logic classes did you? And, The average computer user in the US just buys what he is told to buy. Just tell them that it's the latest, and greatest and that it runs games fast... No sophistication involved. Currently Linux is a much more sophisticated OS, and, the only difference you see is that it costs less, so it can't be any good. Talk about warped logic.
What you need to learn is that while people with more than superficial understanding are rare in any situation or location, the US has no patent on sophistication nor does a narrow understanding of technology and economics equate to any kind of sophistication. It the worst kind of insult to even hint that Americans or 'G-8' countries are the only sophisticated people. Sophisticated people do exist in America, but, you sir are not one of them.
I don't see how attacking me personally does anything but allow you to justify or rationalize you own beliefs. This has devolved from a discussion about IT to an attempt to degrade an individual. You have a very shallow worldview.
In two hundred years, who will even care about these insignificant matters. Jim and some of the other people commenting here have convinced me that you have a limited understanding of people. You do not distinguish between the things you can change and the thing you cannot.
I came here to look at technology not have someone insult me. You should consider your own beliefs, behaviors and motives. Take a look at what you wrote. I did and I consider the source.
We've gone from what has Microsoft done to you to how bad and wrong I am. People only make others wrong to make themselves right.
Ya'll.
In two hundred years, who will even care about these insignificant matters. Jim and some of the other people commenting here have convinced me that you have a limited understanding of people. You do not distinguish between the things you can change and the thing you cannot.
I came here to look at technology not have someone insult me. You should consider your own beliefs, behaviors and motives. Take a look at what you wrote. I did and I consider the source.
We've gone from what has Microsoft done to you to how bad and wrong I am. People only make others wrong to make themselves right.
Ya'll.
Ooops. Avenger: You nailed it.
Each person had a valid point. But the thread devolved from your points about Microsoft to a personal attack.
Don't give up on Linux because you did not get your question answered. Some of us don't know how to separate our emotions from rational arguments. That's reflective of us not of the technology.
Microsoft did some things that caused financial set backs, specifically and directly to me.
Now, I am not out for revenge because that's a waste of life force. But, you won't find those kind of hassels if you use open source software and don't have to worry about agreements with vendors, etc.
So, if you are offended and I think you probably are, please have some compassion. You asked legitimate questions and for the time frame I can see where you were coming from.
Let us know if we can help.
Each person had a valid point. But the thread devolved from your points about Microsoft to a personal attack.
Don't give up on Linux because you did not get your question answered. Some of us don't know how to separate our emotions from rational arguments. That's reflective of us not of the technology.
Microsoft did some things that caused financial set backs, specifically and directly to me.
Now, I am not out for revenge because that's a waste of life force. But, you won't find those kind of hassels if you use open source software and don't have to worry about agreements with vendors, etc.
So, if you are offended and I think you probably are, please have some compassion. You asked legitimate questions and for the time frame I can see where you were coming from.
Let us know if we can help.
Can I mod this down as flamebait??? Seriously though, if you really think MS made it because of it's superiority, may I suggest you read the book "Accidental Empires" by Robert X. Cringley. Cringley was a real insider during the 80's and witnessed alot of what went on first hand, and also got a lot of accounts from others who witnessed it first hand. It will give you a real insight into MS and what made them a success, as well as what made the PC big. -hint, it wasn't windows-
I have watched this thread long enough, sabre. Moderate it down, please.
Regarding Cringley - this should provide anyone with his background:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cringely
I question his credibilty.
Regarding Cringley - this should provide anyone with his background:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cringely
I question his credibilty.
sabre --
Don't know what Cringely said, but I am real sure it was Lotus 1-2-3...
Don't know what Cringely said, but I am real sure it was Lotus 1-2-3...
Considering that none of the answers given were good enough for avenger, I hope that they were read by people who were actually interested in what was said, rather than arguing pointlessly.
I will concede that Microsoft has not invaded my home and eaten my food, drank my booze, played loud music, and left a big mess. No one from Microsoft has punched me in the nose, kicked my cat, stolen my stuff, driven across my lawn, painted graffiti on my walls, or badmouthed me to my friends.
Microsoft did not make my car break down, nor taught my horse bad habits, nor borrowed things from my neighbors and never returned them.
What they have done is destroy hundreds of promising companies; destroyed customer choice by locking up hardware vendors to the point that hardware support for Linux and other platforms is reduced to a do-it-yourself endeavor; completely wasted the time and energy of sysadmins and network admins like me who are forced to invest far too much time and resources and bandwidth in dealing with attacks launched from hundreds of thousands of trivially compromised Windows boxes, even when we are not running any Windows boxes. My last year of consulting I calculated that 20% of my total billings was directly related to security problems caused by Microsoft's insecure crapware. I greatly resent being collateral damage in the name of increasing BillG's fortune.
I do not believe that Microsoft's success in the PC business is a good thing- they marketed a complex, difficult, completely insecure product as something that was easy and fun, in effect putting loaded guns in the hands of millions of children. If Windows users would all disconnect from the Internet right now, I wonder how many years it would take for existing exploits to go away. Even worse, they brought the same strategy to IT infrastructure, promising that semi-skilled monkeys could run networks and servers.
They treat customers as enemies. Remember the BSA, Business Software Alliance? A better name would be the BillG Gestapo. Want to cause someone a world of hurt? Fink them off to the BSA. Right or wrong, their business will be disrupted and they will be out a huge amount of money for absolutely no good reason.
In all seriousness and honesty, I cannot think of a single reason to admire or like Microsoft, nor can I think of a single good thing to say about the company. I think they are the worst possible thing that could have happened to computing.
I will concede that Microsoft has not invaded my home and eaten my food, drank my booze, played loud music, and left a big mess. No one from Microsoft has punched me in the nose, kicked my cat, stolen my stuff, driven across my lawn, painted graffiti on my walls, or badmouthed me to my friends.
Microsoft did not make my car break down, nor taught my horse bad habits, nor borrowed things from my neighbors and never returned them.
What they have done is destroy hundreds of promising companies; destroyed customer choice by locking up hardware vendors to the point that hardware support for Linux and other platforms is reduced to a do-it-yourself endeavor; completely wasted the time and energy of sysadmins and network admins like me who are forced to invest far too much time and resources and bandwidth in dealing with attacks launched from hundreds of thousands of trivially compromised Windows boxes, even when we are not running any Windows boxes. My last year of consulting I calculated that 20% of my total billings was directly related to security problems caused by Microsoft's insecure crapware. I greatly resent being collateral damage in the name of increasing BillG's fortune.
I do not believe that Microsoft's success in the PC business is a good thing- they marketed a complex, difficult, completely insecure product as something that was easy and fun, in effect putting loaded guns in the hands of millions of children. If Windows users would all disconnect from the Internet right now, I wonder how many years it would take for existing exploits to go away. Even worse, they brought the same strategy to IT infrastructure, promising that semi-skilled monkeys could run networks and servers.
They treat customers as enemies. Remember the BSA, Business Software Alliance? A better name would be the BillG Gestapo. Want to cause someone a world of hurt? Fink them off to the BSA. Right or wrong, their business will be disrupted and they will be out a huge amount of money for absolutely no good reason.
In all seriousness and honesty, I cannot think of a single reason to admire or like Microsoft, nor can I think of a single good thing to say about the company. I think they are the worst possible thing that could have happened to computing.
Another issue came to my mind regarding the question "What did MS do to you?"
You see, as most of you probably know, I live in Europe. That's also why I threatened to mention Florida elections etc. above, but this was only meant to illustrate to Avenger that American people might not be as sophisticated as a minority of the Americans like he think. So, I apologize to all Americans who don't think they're the most sophisticated country in the world for trolling like this.
(In another topic I already told: What MS does to others is more important than what it did to me. MS likes to put poor 'software pirates' in jail in El Salvador, Honduras etc., but it doesn't do anything about software piracy in the US government. http://linuxtoday.com/developer/2000021100305OP )
Anyway, I was speaking about MS and Europe, and what comes to mind first, are of course software patents. They tried to push it through, thereby putting small SMB's out of business becaue they can't pay millions for trials like MS can, and if they pay the license fees, they will become bankrupt also.
Now, as you might noticed, MS is crying because the judge decided they infringe on Eolas' patents and should pay big money. Then why are they the biggest proponents of unlimited patentability, like the Eolas patent? When talking about this stuff, I always quote Bill Gates in a 1991 memo:
How does this quote relate to the following article: [url=http://news.com.com/Gates wants patent power/2100-1014_3-5288722.html?tag=nl]http://news.com.com/Gates wants patent power/2100-1014_3-528...[/url] (Bill Gates wants patent power, and is pretty excited about the 10 patents a week MS issues) It means, when MS was small, they were 'afraid' of software patents, because they knew, big companies like IBM could put them out of business by using them, and if IBM had used them against poor Bill, MS probably wouldn't have existed anymore. Not because they infringed IBM patents, but because MS didn't have much money for trials back then. Now they are a big company, and they try to put small innovative companies out of business by patenting everything they can think of, no matter if there's prior art or not (sudo, double mouseclick etc).
They also hired lobbyist, who represented themselves as representatives from the SMB's. (Microsoft ISN'T an SMB!). Furthermore, when Ireland was the 'chair-country' of the EU, Irelands minister McCreevy managed to get MS as the main-sponsor of the Ireland-chairmanship of the EU. Denmark was against softwarepatents, but Ireland didn't allow Denmark to speak. Then, this same McCreevy became the commissioner of intern stuff in the EU. For 'some' reason, he tries to help MS as good as he can now, and is one of the largest proponents of software-patents himself.
Meanwhile, everyone in the EU knows software-patents stiffle innovation, and swpats would mean the EU can almost only import software from the US (because US companies hold almost all the software patents), which is bad for its economy.
If the REAL SMB's hadn't united themselves (economicmajority.org) to let the real SMB's speak out against software patents, I'm sure MS & co would have succeeded in pushing through US-style software-patents in the EU.
At the moment, they are still trying to make this software patents legal via the backdoor in the EU. And if someone sues them for infringing, then they cry and say 'the quality of software-patents' should be 'improved', and there's 'prior art'.
(Where's a bag to vomit?)
BTW what would New Orleans look like today, if MS didn't squeeze that much money out of the US-governments (70% operational profit for Windows/ MSOffice customers like you and me), for example if the US governments switched to Linux, and would have used the savings because of no licensing fees for building dikes in New Orleans?
You see, as most of you probably know, I live in Europe. That's also why I threatened to mention Florida elections etc. above, but this was only meant to illustrate to Avenger that American people might not be as sophisticated as a minority of the Americans like he think. So, I apologize to all Americans who don't think they're the most sophisticated country in the world for trolling like this.
(In another topic I already told: What MS does to others is more important than what it did to me. MS likes to put poor 'software pirates' in jail in El Salvador, Honduras etc., but it doesn't do anything about software piracy in the US government. http://linuxtoday.com/developer/2000021100305OP )
Anyway, I was speaking about MS and Europe, and what comes to mind first, are of course software patents. They tried to push it through, thereby putting small SMB's out of business becaue they can't pay millions for trials like MS can, and if they pay the license fees, they will become bankrupt also.
Now, as you might noticed, MS is crying because the judge decided they infringe on Eolas' patents and should pay big money. Then why are they the biggest proponents of unlimited patentability, like the Eolas patent? When talking about this stuff, I always quote Bill Gates in a 1991 memo:
Quoting:If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented, and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today."Challenges and Strategy Memo.
How does this quote relate to the following article: [url=http://news.com.com/Gates wants patent power/2100-1014_3-5288722.html?tag=nl]http://news.com.com/Gates wants patent power/2100-1014_3-528...[/url] (Bill Gates wants patent power, and is pretty excited about the 10 patents a week MS issues) It means, when MS was small, they were 'afraid' of software patents, because they knew, big companies like IBM could put them out of business by using them, and if IBM had used them against poor Bill, MS probably wouldn't have existed anymore. Not because they infringed IBM patents, but because MS didn't have much money for trials back then. Now they are a big company, and they try to put small innovative companies out of business by patenting everything they can think of, no matter if there's prior art or not (sudo, double mouseclick etc).
They also hired lobbyist, who represented themselves as representatives from the SMB's. (Microsoft ISN'T an SMB!). Furthermore, when Ireland was the 'chair-country' of the EU, Irelands minister McCreevy managed to get MS as the main-sponsor of the Ireland-chairmanship of the EU. Denmark was against softwarepatents, but Ireland didn't allow Denmark to speak. Then, this same McCreevy became the commissioner of intern stuff in the EU. For 'some' reason, he tries to help MS as good as he can now, and is one of the largest proponents of software-patents himself.
Meanwhile, everyone in the EU knows software-patents stiffle innovation, and swpats would mean the EU can almost only import software from the US (because US companies hold almost all the software patents), which is bad for its economy.
If the REAL SMB's hadn't united themselves (economicmajority.org) to let the real SMB's speak out against software patents, I'm sure MS & co would have succeeded in pushing through US-style software-patents in the EU.
At the moment, they are still trying to make this software patents legal via the backdoor in the EU. And if someone sues them for infringing, then they cry and say 'the quality of software-patents' should be 'improved', and there's 'prior art'.
(Where's a bag to vomit?)
BTW what would New Orleans look like today, if MS didn't squeeze that much money out of the US-governments (70% operational profit for Windows/ MSOffice customers like you and me), for example if the US governments switched to Linux, and would have used the savings because of no licensing fees for building dikes in New Orleans?
well, sir avenger, if you cannot understand the situation that underlies underdeveloped countries vis-a-vis technology, then i am sorry to say that you also have no right to place judgment as the rest of us having "shallow worldviews". suffice to say that at least in my case, i have full understanding of the workings in developed countries, workings in our poor country (bad politics and rotten apples), and Microsoft.
i have seen how the posts by other people after i made mine have adequately answered the question you posed about what Microsoft did to us. even after so many reasons, you fail to understand and ask the question again and again. if you must be a fanboi (other people: is this the slang term for MS fans in this forum? :) ), i respect that, but please, just as i respect your viewpoint, respect ours.
i have seen how the posts by other people after i made mine have adequately answered the question you posed about what Microsoft did to us. even after so many reasons, you fail to understand and ask the question again and again. if you must be a fanboi (other people: is this the slang term for MS fans in this forum? :) ), i respect that, but please, just as i respect your viewpoint, respect ours.
vinzer - clarification regarding the term fanbois: I encountered the term applied almost exclusively as being flung at supporters of Mac, Linux and other Unix based type variants (or more properly run alikes) in the slashdot comments sections. It was the tenor or tone of these remarks and their targets that made me assign such a pejorative term to fans of Microsoft. Moreover, it was seeing comments critical of MS moves moderated to invisibility that made me make the connection even more solid.
avenger - if you are so sensitive to personal, critical comments directed towards yourself, why are you so blithely ignorant of the content of your own comments directed at others? You may take your comments as being patently evident, whereas too many of the counter comments call in question the very basis of your tacit assumptions.
avenger - if you are so sensitive to personal, critical comments directed towards yourself, why are you so blithely ignorant of the content of your own comments directed at others? You may take your comments as being patently evident, whereas too many of the counter comments call in question the very basis of your tacit assumptions.
AMD & Microsoft v Linux (?)
Quoting:They could allow AMD to become Microsoft's best friend as Redmond becomes irrelevant over the next five years.
I doubt it. AMD has some other business going on too.
Remember the MIT laptop project? If I remember well, these laptops feature AMD processors.
Quoting: Initial discussions have been held with China, Brazil, Thailand, and Egypt.
Do these countries sound familiar after reading Tom's article? Hint:
Quoting:You might find it a brilliant strategy. Intel opened technical hubs in China, India, Brazil and Egypt.
So, as wel AMD as Intel are going to sell Linux-boxes in this countries. As you might remember, these MIT $100 laptops might go to over 100 million people.
As a result of this, Microsoft might end up with no chip-manufacturer friends (who aren't allowde to sell anything without Windows by MS) at all.
You see, the people at AMD almost have the same vision as the people at Intel (and the vision MS lacks): it's better to make less profit from more people for a while, to increase your business, and this especially works if the end-products are cheap, which means they can't feature Windows. This is true for the ~$350 Intel boxes, but especially for the $100 laptop-project.
So, if we add the MIT's (AMD's) laptop project with this Intel/Linux alliance, what does this mean?
It means, I have to update the "estimated number of Linux-users" page, at counter.li.org, which is now 29 million, but it could grow a factor 10-20 in the next five years.
BTW, people always tell you: when more users use product X, more bugs will be found; Linux is secure because nobody uses it, it's market share is too little. I always answer them, if more people use Linux, more people are viewing the code too. What would happen with Linux if the number of people looking at the code grows with only some factor 5? If the number of testers growed that much? And what would happen to the [quality of the] applications? (No need to answer)
Child molesters
13 earlier comments in the full thread.
We have been discovered by the MS Astroturf Brigade. Expect more.
tuxchick: What? Don't tell me that people are hired to simply create confusion on news sites -- that would be stupid, immoral and (heh) a waste of time here.
You'll truly know we've been discovered when you get that call from Wag-Ed. I can't wait, myself. --FeriCyde
You'll truly know we've been discovered when you get that call from Wag-Ed. I can't wait, myself. --FeriCyde
LOL Tuxchick, they must have to go to MS Astoroturf training camp.... I just can't imagine anyone who could arive at that headstate without intensive brainwashing %)
You know, "mk" does remind me of Microsoft Apologists I used to argue with during the heyday of usenet. I used to argue vociferously in "alt.fan.bill-gates" with a bunch of people.
I looked up two of the pro-MSFT names I could recall last year. They existed as Real Humans, one actually employed at MSFT. I wonder how his ego gets through the door.
I looked up two of the pro-MSFT names I could recall last year. They existed as Real Humans, one actually employed at MSFT. I wonder how his ego gets through the door.
You guys are merciless.
Good.
Doncha love having the facts on your side? That makes it easy.
Good.
Doncha love having the facts on your side? That makes it easy.
Jimf,
Good comeback.
I wonder if its in lesson three or four at the training camp where they teach the recruits to start threads with names like this one has, so news sites get blocked by many proxy server rules?
I haven't seen the manual, so I'm just making a guess...
Good comeback.
I wonder if its in lesson three or four at the training camp where they teach the recruits to start threads with names like this one has, so news sites get blocked by many proxy server rules?
I haven't seen the manual, so I'm just making a guess...
No number6x, the first lesson is obviously incoherency.... then weeks of txt messaging on a cell... :)
OK. Have we traced anyone to a secure facility for the criminally insane?
Actually tadelste, we are all at the facility... it's that guy that keeps calling in here trying to sell astroturf that is the hastle :D
yeah, me and jim are collaborating on a pair of beaded mocassins in TherPuOps. We share- he gets one, I get one.
Oh no!... now comes the fight about who gets left and who gets right :D
Tom.... comment of the day, this ;-)
Jim, take whichever one you want- if you dare.
Actually, the tuxxie chick has rights to comment of the day posting. Indeed.
She can also have 'both' beaded mocassins with my blessing :)
You have been discovered...indeed.
Congratulations. I smell another /. around the corner
To be worthy of Microsoft attention is to be considered a Microsoft threat.
helios
Congratulations. I smell another /. around the corner
To be worthy of Microsoft attention is to be considered a Microsoft threat.
helios
phsolide: or to put it another way:
Those who do not understand Unix are doomed to reinvent it. Poorly.
Those who do not understand Unix are doomed to reinvent it. Poorly.
Cannot tell you where I heard this, however, I was told years ago within Microsoft they thought: NT was Unix done right!
You mean because they put Free BSD code into the product without attribution?
Or maybe because DEC got Microsoft to believe it was a PC version of VMS before DEC unloaded the terrible project to Microsoft?
Or maybe because DEC got Microsoft to believe it was a PC version of VMS before DEC unloaded the terrible project to Microsoft?
Quoting: ... because they put Free BSD code into the product without attribution?
Not sure why the Microsofties thought that way. Since it was such common knowledge that MS used BSD code, I thought they had displayed the BSD acknowledgment somewhere, though I have never seen it on NT 3, 4 or 5.
Quoting: [or] ... a PC version of VMS ...
Again I do not know. However, I thought DEC got its cash after the fact by either bring a suit or threatening to do so. Moreover, I thought they hired Dave Cuttler and all parties were aware that he was doing VMS for the pc as NT. Furthermore, from what I read recently that was the mechanism by which DEC got MS to support the Alpha chip.
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helios is speechless.