I must be doing something wrong.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| theboomboomcars Jun 02, 2011 12:42 AM EDT |
I dropped windows during my first year of marriage due to the frustration of dealing with drive by malware and related junk. For the last 6 years or so I haven't had to deal with problems that wouldn't get fixed no matter what I did, short of re-installation. The aggravation I put up with during the first six months of my marriage from windows was far more than all the remaining years from linux. So I would say that my experience is the exact opposite of this guy. Before I got married I would upgrade some hardware every few months trying to get windows to run smoother. We have only done upgrades twice since, there hasn't been a need. Though I do get antsy every year wanting to put a computer together, though usually someone has something for me to do. |
| Scott_Ruecker Jun 02, 2011 12:49 AM EDT |
Wait..you mean its Linux's fault I'm a Bachelor?!?! ;-) |
| nikkels Jun 02, 2011 1:04 AM EDT |
And the reason he started using Linux is........................? |
| tracyanne Jun 02, 2011 1:39 AM EDT |
My replay to young Sam the non Batchelor man. quote:: There is a reason why Windows, not Linux, is my primary desktop OS. It's also the reason why you are getting serious clock slew. Clock slew is a common problem with Windows, and has been for as long as I've use Windows, that dates back to Windows 3.1, and includes 3.11, 95, 98, NT 4 (server uas my desktop), 2000 (desktop and server), XP, Vista, and 7, and also 2008 server) I have never seen clock slew on a Linux desktop or server, except when the Linux desktop is run inside a VM on top of Windows, I can't speak for Linux servers, as I've never run them in a VM on Windows. You would be better of to run a Linux based OS on the hardware, and run Windows in a VM, as I now do. Windows is much more reliable in this scenario. |
| Ridcully Jun 02, 2011 5:41 AM EDT |
Okay......I'm a married man, but that's irrelevant. The first thing I did was look up on the web just exactly what "Scientific Linux" is because I honestly didn't know.........and to quote its own website: http://www.scientificlinux.org/ Quoting:SL is a Linux release put together by Fermilab, CERN, and various other labs and universities around the world. Its primary purpose is to reduce duplicated effort of the labs, and to have a common install base for the various experimenters. I'd like this man to satisfy my curiosity: Why is he running Scientific Linux ???? As far as I know, he's running a standard Windows system, not an experimental/test/beta Windows system so you could deduce that he just wants a computer system that works.......Therefore, why in heavens name is he knowingly running a distro designed for experimentation and then complaining ? I'd have bet any money that he'd have to hack things around in this distro in order to get them doing what he wants. Or am I missing something here ? If he just wants a Linux OS that just works like his Windows system does, there are plenty of good distros around and they won't misbehave. |
| dinotrac Jun 02, 2011 6:36 AM EDT |
How do I get this guy to come to my house? There's a woman living here who insists she's been married to me for more than 25 years. Worse -- she's got a couple of kids with her. One of them's a teenager!! A teenager....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A poor linux-using certified bachelor like me should not have to put up with this. |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 02, 2011 6:51 AM EDT |
dino, If this were a soap opera we would know immediately that it's nothing but a hallucination. You married with kids ... impossible. Who would put up with you? Case closed. On trac for bachelor only Linux. YBT |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 02, 2011 7:11 AM EDT |
Better yet people, the U.S. census shows that fewer than 50% households are headed by married couples for 2010 (and this might included married, same sex couples). So victory is just around the bend, the recent census just reflects an older, continuing trend of fewer and later marriages that are corrected by divorce statistics rather than premature deaths to escape the ennui of married life. See Linux will triumph? YBT |
| pmpatrick Jun 02, 2011 8:49 AM EDT |
Ridicully, I think you got it wrong. Scientific Linux is not an experimental linux distro; it's a distro for scientists doing experimental particle physics research. It's bascially an RHEL clone originally put together by the scientists at Fermi Lab and modified for their specific purposes. The results of particle physics experiments require sophisticated software for analysis, all of which is *nix based. Scientific Linux provides a common platform for running this software. |
| JaseP Jun 02, 2011 9:39 AM EDT |
Getting back to the topic,... In my home, I have everyone using the same Cairo-dock + Compiz interface,... Laptops/netbooks/tablets, my desktop, the TVs (HTPCs). Same basic configuration. Only exceptions are the Android & Maemo devices,... & the Wii... All Linux, though (except the Wii, but it's not web connected). It has made life easier, except for the occasional complaint that Excel is better than OO Calc, from the Mrs. This guy's going about it all wrong... |
| Ridcully Jun 02, 2011 9:47 AM EDT |
@pmpatrick..........Okay.....no problems and rather interesting in any case - my incorrect interpretation of "experimental". In English, the same set of words can be understood in different ways by different readers. But again, why on earth would someone run this rather specialised distro apparently as a "standard Linux distro" when there are far better and simpler options ? It could be that Sam Trenholm has a particular need for this distro, but he doesn't explain why. Again, just sheer curiosity. |
| hkwint Jun 02, 2011 11:40 AM EDT |
Hey, I'm no bachelor! I have put up with my marriage with Gentoo for over 8 years now. Sometimes we had arguments, relationship sometimes nearly broke when my partner suffered from yet another breakdown, and needed much of attention to feel 'whole' again. And yes, I have to admit I'm interested in other distro's and sometimes look / stare at them. I even tried them sometimes, much to the disdain of Gentoo. But us two, we're still together. And I'm pretty sure even if we divorce, it will take only a week before I become engaged with another distro. And like you have Bachelor of Science (BS) and Bachelor of Arts (BA), if I'm a bachelor then I'm a Bachelor in Linux. |
| Fettoosh Jun 02, 2011 12:00 PM EDT |
Quoting: It could be that Sam Trenholm has a particular need for this distro, but he doesn't explain why. Again, just sheer curiosity Reading his brief cv http://www.samiam.org/index.html , He is a web developer and I don't think he would be interested in a Linux Distro especially tailored to be used in scientific research environment. I believe his motives are the same as all others before him who used to narrow their reviews to a specific odd ball Distro that lacks certain features and apply it to Linux in general. We've seen many such reviews before and this guy is trying to revive the trend. That is the only reason I can think off. |
| mortenalver Jun 02, 2011 12:03 PM EDT |
SL is not really a specialised distro, it's rather similar to CentOS. But I don't think I'd choose it as my main desktop OS, since it's very focused on stability and doesn't provide the latest versions of software like KDE and Gnome. Hmm... wait a moment... |
| lcafiero Jun 02, 2011 12:33 PM EDT |
I'm with Fettoosh here -- why the heck is this guy using Scientific Linux when, from the tone of the blog item, it's way over his head? It sounds like trolling to me. |
| tuxchick Jun 02, 2011 12:42 PM EDT |
Leaving out the snit about why Windows is better, isn't this the sort of thing we rail about all the time in Linux? No documentation and head-pounding aggravation over dumb stuff? |
| skelband Jun 02, 2011 1:09 PM EDT |
Funnily enough (well it didn't actually seem that funny) last night my daughter asked me to print off a PDF of a mock exam paper. Well we use Ubuntu 10.10 which I convinced the family was the wise choice and for the most part it's true. Sent it to the Epson R200 workhorse..... "Printer error occurred". OK, sent it to the HP LaserJet 5si downstairs..... "Printer error occurred". OK, print one page... "Printer error occurred". Now my daughter's getting a bit ticked off at this point. So what do I do? "pdf2ps paper.pdf > paper.ps" and send to LaserJet downstairs. Woohoo. Works. Now, at the back of my mind, I just know that if I had weakened and powered up the Windows XP dualboot it would have just worked. But I persevered and got the job done. Most people would have put a brick through the screen I suspect by that point. My point? No point I guess, but having a family means that these things just have to work for the benefit of family harmony. |
| lcafiero Jun 02, 2011 2:04 PM EDT |
@Tuxchick -- This is a classic yeahbut, as in "Yeah, but . . . ." Yeah, clearly documentation in most Linux/FOSS software could be better, and hopefully someday it will be in those programs where it is lacking. But what strikes me as odd about this post, again, is that this guy uses Scientific Linux rather than something more -- how can I put this? -- simple; like -- oh, I don't know -- Ubuntu (which has excellent documentation. See? I said something nice about Ubuntu). Maybe it's me, but I'd expect someone who's using SL to have a higher degree of experience to use it successfully. It's akin to my having a driver's license, but I'm not going to start driving Indy cars anytime soon since it's a lot more "car" than I should be allowed to handle without proper instruction and training. @skelband -- kudos, by the way. |
| tuxchick Jun 02, 2011 2:27 PM EDT |
Larry, Scientific Linux is a Red Hat clone, just like CentOS. The two issues he describes-- clock skew and BDF font incompatibility-- are fundamental functions that should just work, especially in a "grownup" distro like RHEL. If this happened in Ubuntu it would be no surprise, given their love of mucking with anything and everything for random reasons. The font incompatibility is extra-wack. Granted, the author could be some kind of ranty weirdo. But I don't think he's so far off base. Except for preferring winduhs, of course. |
| gus3 Jun 02, 2011 4:55 PM EDT |
Two guys flying a helicopter, get lost in a fog. As they creep through the vapor, they notice that they're approaching a large building. A little closer, and they see people inside, looking at them. The passenger in the helicopter writes, in large letters on a piece of paper, "WHERE ARE WE?" After much scurrying about inside, the people in the building hold up a hand-lettered sign that says, "IN A HELICOPTER". With this factually correct but totally useless answer, the pilot knows that he's over the Microsoft campus, and can then dead-reckon his way to the nearest heliport. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jun 02, 2011 6:41 PM EDT |
Scientific Linux = CentOS minus the drama (and delays) |
| 4ebees Jun 03, 2011 6:45 AM EDT |
With three kids and a wife running her own business, we have three desktops, a home server and three laptops running GNU/Linux...dunno what went wrong in my household. |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 03, 2011 8:35 AM EDT |
Quoting: [...] three kids and a wife running her own business, we have three desktops, a home server and three laptops running GNU/Linux ...dunno what went wrong [...] Nothing, with your diminished hive population you stand no chance of defeating Windows. Just proves Bee population collapse continues*. I suggest you retreat to a Windows machine and run a tutorial on fulfilling your duties of flower pollination. By the way, I wouldn't mind learning where you store the honey. YBT * Despite discovering the cause their is no assurance a fix can be found in time. With Bees and bachelors being the primary users of Linux, factors beyond their control will stop its growth to a sub niche level. |
| JaseP Jun 03, 2011 9:44 AM EDT |
He can't do that. If he switches to Windoze, the only hive he'll belong to is the hive mind of the Borg collective... "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.” |
| gus3 Jun 03, 2011 11:44 AM EDT |
MBT, don't worry, there are enough sons of bees... |
| tracyanne Jun 03, 2011 6:34 PM EDT |
Apparently we're all loudmouths http://samiam.org/blog/20110603.html because we responded/offered advice. Seems to me he isn't actually interested in anything other than slagging Linux, because he even deliberately misunderstood what I said to him. The bloke obviously is either doing something terribly wrong or is making it up as he goes, because why he would choose Windows XP over Windows 7 and either over a good Linux based OS, like Linux Mint, is beyond me. The fact is it is highly likely the instability issues he's experiencing in his chosen Linux install is more than likely due to his choice of running Linux in a VM on top of Windows. |
| samiam Jun 03, 2011 8:29 PM EDT |
I'm letting people know I have just revamped how I handle blog comments on my site. Real quickly: * If anyone wants their email to me removed from http://samiam.org/blog/20110603.html let me know and I will remove the email you sent to me as well as my reply to it from the page. * I have updated my email system; this required changing the encryption key used to generate email addresses. Please go to http://samiam.org/mailme.php to get my email. * My lxer.com email address has been disabled. The only way to contact me is to either get my email at http://samiam.org/mailme.php, or, less ideally, post a follow-up to this message. In terms of using Linux, I think you guys would do yourselves a lot of good having Windows on at least one of your computers; I regret the eight years or so of my life when I only used Linux and didn't have at least one computer running Windows on my desktop. |
| tuxchick Jun 03, 2011 8:40 PM EDT |
Quoting: I regret the eight years or so of my life when I only used Linux and didn't have at least one computer running Windows on my desktop. I regret the years of my life when I avoided using tampons. But now I think they're great, and you should use them too. |
| helios Jun 03, 2011 9:52 PM EDT |
spewed pepsi all over a brand new 25 inch LCD TC...thanks for that. I regret the eight years or so of my life when I only used Linux You "regret" it? Really? That's one of the strangest statements I've heard in a long time. Personally, I've used Linux flawlessly for 6 years. This current install has been in-line upgraded since Ubuntu 9.04 without a single problem. I haven't rebooted this computer in over 120 days. I haven't had to protect myself from viruses for six years I haven't had to defrag a registry for six years. I've communicated with windows-using local, state and government agencies without a problem for six years. I haven't had to purchase an operating system or software for six years. I haven't had a bsod or corrupt system for six years. I haven't had to "fix" or reinstall a friend's or relative's computer for six years. I regret that I spent so much time doing all the things above before I switched to Linux. Hours upon hours wasted when I could have been productive. Yeah, you're right...Linux sucks. |
| Scott_Ruecker Jun 03, 2011 9:54 PM EDT |
I 2nd your comment Helios.. |
| jdixon Jun 03, 2011 10:31 PM EDT |
> ...In terms of using Linux, I think you guys would do yourselves a lot of good having Windows on at least one of your computers What makes you think we don't use Windows? I don't know about the others, but I have to use (and support) Windows at work. That's more than enough to convince me that I want nothing to do with it on my home machine. The only real reason for a home user to use Windows is because they need specific applications which are Windows only. This usually translates to games, but may include software for compatibility with work, tax software, or some other specialty need. And for everything but games, you can usually get by running Windows in a virtual machine. |
| tracyanne Jun 04, 2011 2:17 AM EDT |
Quoting:That's one of the strangest statements I've heard in a long time. Personally, I've used Linux flawlessly for 6 years. And I have used one or another linux based operating system flawlessly for over 10 years. While at the same time I've used one or another version of Windows begining with 3.1 with any one of a number of stability problems right up until I started running Windows on a VM on top of Linux, where it is strangely exceptionally stable. I am now more certain than ever that this joker is simply flame baiting. The assumption that we don't know anything about Windows smacks of a typical fanboy. @samiam I assumed you were genuine, and offered you some insight based on my experience, you chose to return that gesture with insults. As far as I'm concerned my reply to your blog stands, so that everyone can see how you return comment with insult. I'm sure that people will work out for themselves that it was your intention all along. |
| Ridcully Jun 04, 2011 3:34 AM EDT |
I'll second your comments Tracyanne.......especially those about "flame baiting". I'd also suggest that the above rather unworthy comments from "samiam/Sam Trenholm" indicate that LXer is now reaching the radar of the Windows crowd because LXer is becoming known for its pretty good, serious, educational and on-subject discussion forums and threads. One thing I have noticed from bitter experience, especially on a particular USA IT site, is that Windows people almost immediately try to smash serious discussion about alternative computing systems and rapidly move into personal attacks - unless of course, the subject is the glorification of the software produced by Redmond. From what I can see so far, Sam Trenholm chose to use a Linux version that is totally unsuited to what I see as his requirements, and frankly, he does not seem to be able to handle it anyway. I'd give this little stirring episode up as a bad joke ........ and it tells you more about the perpetrator than it does about either Linux or Windows. And I confess that was a VERY enjoyable two cents worth. |
| helios Jun 04, 2011 4:12 AM EDT |
but I have to use (and support) Windows at work. Yeah, I forgot about that part. Windows does have its place in the market. I will put a child through college on the money I make fixing problems on Windows-based computers. http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2011/06/wooooo-freakin-hoooooo... I should not have slighted Microsoft Windows for its obvious value in the economy. |
| gus3 Jun 04, 2011 7:14 AM EDT |
My sanity is not for sale, for any price. |
| mortenalver Jun 04, 2011 7:46 AM EDT |
It's interesting that he complains that no one googled Scientific Linux to find out what it was. It seems to me that a clear description of what SL is has been given several times in this discussion. |
| jdixon Jun 04, 2011 9:37 AM EDT |
> ...My sanity is not for sale, for any price. Most people who know me question whether I had any sanity to sell to begin with. :) > It's interesting that he complains that no one googled Scientific Linux to find out what it was. Interesting is the word alright. Apparently he's never heard of distrowatch. |
| Fettoosh Jun 04, 2011 10:20 AM EDT |
Quoting:I think you guys would do yourselves a lot of good having Windows on at least one of your computers; @Samiam, Has it occurred to you that we prefer Linux because we know Windows better than you do and we run windows only as needed? Of course not, otherwise you wouldn't make such a statement. |
| skelband Jun 04, 2011 11:28 AM EDT |
I will give my few cents worth if you like. As a developer, I have to run Ubuntu Linux, OS X, Windows XP and Windows Server 2008. I can tell you that Windows XP is almost a pleasure to work with although I always prefer the Gnome environment of Ubuntu which is my default go-to to do work. Windows Server 2008 is one of the most unpleasant, awful, badly designed environments that I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. Windows Explorer in Server 2008 has a UI that is so muddled and disorganised I just don't know where to begin. The worst of it is that it is the 64-bit version and they have decided to implement it in such a mind-numbingly obtuse way for the purposes of backward compatibility such that System32 is actually 64-bit. They have two version of ODBC odbcad32.exe, one of which is 64-bit and they both look exactly the same. I could go on but I won't. It hurts my brain. |
| hkwint Jun 04, 2011 1:09 PM EDT |
gus3: Thanks for the helicopter joke, I didn't knew that one yet. Last week, I was on Win7. I wanted to use 'right-mouse-click' from my keyboard, to be more productive. For some weird reason, some bloke who wrote the software I was using appointed "Shift+F10" to some function of the program, without a way to change it (closed source means no way to change it as end user). So I figured I could use the 'menu' / application-key. But I had a stupid dumbass keyboard where I needed to press something like Fn+PrintScreen (both exact opposites of my keyboard), so that was not going to make me more productive. I figured out, in Windows, there must be some way to change the keys. And there is! Write hexadecimal stuff to the registry. Really! I have to mass with scan codes and 4-byte null terminators. And you have to enter in hex-code the number of keys you want to remap! http://www.usnetizen.com/fix_capslock.php Of course, there's an "app" for this; the Windows-way of solving brainfart-developer decisions like the above. As long as I have to do hexadecimal calculations and write them to the register to change settings, I'd say Windows is certainly not ready for the desktop. I mean, come on, I think since the 70's (I wasn't born yet, but anyway), I think PC's could be 'commanded' without writing hex-codes. Last time I had to enter hex-codes, was because I assembled stuff for my Z80, but the cable to send programs didn't work to send the hex-output to my graphical (TI) calculator. And you know what? It turned out my self-soldered cable wasn't to blame. Windows had the address of the parallel-port wrong. So again, Windows was to blame for me having to type hex-stuff. I wasn't really computer literate back then, but there was no way I could figure, how to change the address (should be 0278 / 0378 but wasn't) of the parallel port. So yeah, if I hadn't Windows on one of my computers, I'd really miss it - since such would mean I would have definitely advanced beyond the 'interfacing with your computer using hex-codes' era, to more friendly ways of interacting with my PC. Like the command line interface and text files, the ones one can use on Linux to change key mappings; without needing to count how many keys one wants to remap. But thanks to Windows, indeed, I didn't progress; and still stuck in the hex-era. Thanks a lot! BTW: And you know how I solved the right-click issue? Logitech firmware wouldn't enable me to map a special key (like "play" or "e-mail") to the apps-key. So I programmed an AutoIt (v3) script to send the apps-key. Then I compiled that AutoIt v3 script to an executable. Then, I used Logitech firmware to start that exe when I press the special key. So wait a minute, I have to compile my own program just to _change_ one effing key? On Linux, this is a matter of half a minute, using the antique xkeycaps, which does the job fine. On Windows, I spent about a darn hour to fix this infantile rubbish. Yeah, like you see, I'm still mad at those stupid devs for losing me yet another hour of productivity. The second time, as last time I had to figure out I couldn't use the "Windows key + letter" (like Win+F) to start a program, because Windows automatically remaps the Windows key to "Ctrl+Shift". But I don't want to remap to effing Ctrl+Shift; programs use that combination! Even _Linux_ can use the _Windows key_ to start programs! Really, Windows is a big clusterfart and I'm glad I don't have to use it at home. And if so, for programs to upgrade my mobile-phone or PND or a friend of mine wants to play online poker or such, I use VirtualBox. |
| Koriel Jun 04, 2011 2:13 PM EDT |
Nice little cartoon that explains the whole Windows, Mac and Linux thing http://theoatmeal.com/blog/fix_computer |
| tuxchick Jun 04, 2011 3:56 PM EDT |
The Oatmeal is awesome. I buy his stuff he is so awesome :) |
| montezuma Jun 04, 2011 6:22 PM EDT |
Hey Hans, But Windows 8 is going to be AWESOME and blow ipads away: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/opinion/2075827/windows-... ROFLMAO Le Inq is trolling |
| tracyanne Jun 04, 2011 6:44 PM EDT |
Quoting:Nice little cartoon that explains the whole Windows, Mac and Linux thing 1 he's trying too hard to be funny 2 He's perpetuating the FUD about Linux 3 I weep |
| DrGeoffrey Jun 04, 2011 7:04 PM EDT |
@TA - That's pretty much what I was thinking. Granted, I'm a newbie to linux (only about 5 years), but I've never had to recompile the kernel. Meanwhile, over in winhell, Best Buy, Office Depot, and various other pay-for-windows-tech-support firms regularly inform their customers, 'You have a virus, and we need to reinstall Windows.' |
| tracyanne Jun 04, 2011 7:47 PM EDT |
@ DrGeoffrey I've been using Linux for over 10 years and I've never, willing or other wise, compiled a kernel, and the only time I've ever compiled any application for Linux was when I was new to Linux and didn't know I could find the application in the Package manager, because I was till thinking in terms of how one sources and installs software on Windows. |
| theboomboomcars Jun 04, 2011 8:50 PM EDT |
Quoting:Nice little cartoon that explains the whole Windows, Mac and Linux thing Since I never went with step 1 to fix a problem in Linux I never had to take step 2. |
| tracyanne Jun 04, 2011 8:53 PM EDT |
Why I use Linux. I use Windows and won't touch Linux: So you use Linux do you. Me: Yes, it's so much better than Windows IUWAWTL: You wouldn't say that if you had ever used Windows Me: Oh but I do use Windows, I use Mac too. You know those things you can't work out how to do on Windows, well here's how you do it, and here's how it's even easier to do those things on Linux IUWAWTL: So you obviously know a lot about computers, no wonder you are able to use Linux, because it's so hard to do things on Linux. You can't win, you can't even break even. |
| helios Jun 04, 2011 11:27 PM EDT |
You can't win, you can't even break even. That's what happens when we try to talk to most computer users. To many of them, the computer is no less an appliance than their refrigerator. Windows is simply the bulb that constantly burns out. |
| Ridcully Jun 05, 2011 2:51 AM EDT |
I realise this is coming in obliquely, but has anybody heard anything more about the proceedings in the EU Commission regarding the challenge to OEM pre-installation of Windows on computers sold in Europe ?? For some reason, Helios' comment reminded of it. My "musings" then suggested that if computers could be purchased as bare devices, and the users are faced with OS installation choices - and have to think a little, it may trigger the same response that happened when the EU forced Microsoft to provide users with an initial screen which allowed them to choose their default browser. It had a rather negative effect upon blind acceptance of IE. I remain convinced that the OEM-Microsoft nexus needs to be broken and consumer rights restored. Just try to purchase a bare computer in Australia.........just try ! Go to any large computer retail store and as far as I know, you WILL BE FORCED to pay the Microsoft tax if you purchase any computer. Since I think she has more fingers on the pulse than I have, Tracyanne may be able to provide further details - I'd be interested to see them if she can. |
| tracyanne Jun 05, 2011 3:15 AM EDT |
Quoting:Just try to purchase a bare computer in Australia.........just try Sorry Rid, I can get you a laptop with no OS, Ubuntu or Windows, your choice, from the factory tomorrow (3 to 5 days delivery). Price from $AU499 retail. plus delivery. Extra if you want Windows instead of Ubuntu. But yes it's absolutely true, go to any retailer and you won't have any choice except Windows |
| Ridcully Jun 05, 2011 3:27 AM EDT |
Thanks Tracyanne......but don't be sorry !!! I'm delighted to know there is a way of getting at a new laptop sans Windows......I really didn't know you could. Will be in touch over that one because I'd like more details. Allow me to be very sorry however, that you did confirm the retailer and Windows bit. It remains a disheartening situation. I've also just remembered one tiny glimpse of light I had about 2 years ago. It was a promotional display by Dell at Chermside shopping centre in Brisbane. The salesmen there confirmed that they would supply a Dell computer with Linux pre-installed if I ordered it. |
| gus3 Jun 05, 2011 3:15 PM EDT |
If you ordered it... right. They won't advertise it, won't put it in front of people, and then they use the resulting "no customer demand" as justification to keep Linux out of the spotlight. Jerks. |
| tracyanne Jun 05, 2011 5:15 PM EDT |
Actually gus they do advertise it. It's one of the advertised options in the build part. You have to choose your OS, otherwise you don't get one. It's the retailers that choose Windows, or not. A reasonable percentage of their direct factory sales are Ubuntu, not a big percentage but enough that they make sure their machines work with Linux. |
| caitlyn Jun 06, 2011 5:12 PM EDT |
You know, every time I have to use Windows for a customer I feel handcuffed. It is just so limited and generally a pain compared to doing the same things with Linux. I haven't had a Windows machine at home since 1998 and, as I do have to use Windows periodically, I must say I am better off with just Linux and only Linux. But heck, if Sam wants to use Windows more power to him. Just don't trash everyone who disagrees. |
| tracyanne Jun 06, 2011 5:48 PM EDT |
There's also another company in Australia that sells all their stock only direct from Factory, who also offere Laptops and net books with Linux, in fact they only offere them with Linux and no other choice. The specs on their machines aren't as good as the one's I can sell retail, they are fairly low spec machines, b ut they are at least $AU100.00 cheaper than any price I can do. Based on the customer repsonses on thier web site I'd say most of the customers are happy with their Linux (Ubuntu) powered machines. |
| BernardSwiss Jun 06, 2011 6:46 PM EDT |
" It's one of the advertised options in the build part. You have to choose your OS, otherwise you don't get one." Yes -- and no. I broke down once and started to order -- or at least explore the possibility of ordering -- a netbook from Dell. What I discovered was that once I selected the Linux OS option, I lost the option to get a larger battery (providing 6+ hours life rather than ~3 hours). Backing-up through the process confirmed that the larger batteries were indeed available for Windows versions, and indeed not available with Linux. I forget what other options Dell deemed somehow "incompatible" with / unavailable for Linux, except that Norton 360 security suite wasn't one of them :-P Right then and there, I lost what little interest I might have had in buying a Linux computer from Dell. |
| tracyanne Jun 06, 2011 6:52 PM EDT |
@BernardSwiss Dell my well try all sorts of shenanigans to give the appearance of supporting Linux, while in fact not doing so. But that does not apply in the case I have posted about. You get the same hardware with No OS, Ubuntu, or Windows, no smarmy "but you can't get this option if you chose that option". You order the hardware, then you order the OS to go on it, or not. |
| BernardSwiss Jun 06, 2011 9:08 PM EDT |
Sorry, tracyanne -- I thought we were talking about Dell shenanigans. I wasn't dissing your Aussie OEM (I'm way over in Canada). It sounds good, I hope that the nasty smoke&mirrors, bait&switch practices -- deceitfully offering Linux to customers while simultaneously sabotaging it as a value proposition -- dies an ugly death and in its death throes bites its practitioners (hopefully somewhere where it really hurts). Or at least provides more honest and forward outfits like your Australian company with a solid opportunity to gain market share. I see that Asus has once again announced it's providing Linux (Ubuntu) netbooks. I wonder how that will turn out? |
| jdixon Jun 06, 2011 9:26 PM EDT |
> I wonder how that will turn out? How long will it take Microsoft to pony up the additional money to make Asus toe the line? Good question. I honestly have no idea. Blowing $8 Billion on Skype can't have helped their bribery fund any. |
| tracyanne Jun 06, 2011 10:17 PM EDT |
@BernardSwiss, I buy all my computers from them. They are good, and the only time I had any trouble was with a netbook, when I sent it back they flashed a new BIOS and it worked perfectly afterwards |
| caitlyn Jun 07, 2011 7:53 PM EDT |
With samiam claiming we all should own a Windows box I could not resist. With apologies to the late Theodore Geisel: I do not like Windows and SPAM I do not like them samiam I do not like them in my home I do not like them where I roam I do not like them on a mobile device or on my desktop, they don't play nice I do not like them in my house I do not click on them with my mouse I do not like Windows and SPAM I do not like them samiam |
| tuxchick Jun 07, 2011 9:45 PM EDT |
Applause, Caitlyn! Wonderful! |
| Koriel Jun 07, 2011 11:37 PM EDT |
My problem is that im pretty much hogtied into keeping one Windows 7 box around as im a serious gamer and in that field, Linux i'm afraid still does not cut the mustard through no fault of its own. I would love to get rid of Windows, everything else is Linux and has been since the late 90's. As far as i'm concerned if it weren't for gaming Windows would be a dead platform in my house. Why would anyone want to keep it around if they didn't have to, just getting off the virus merry-go-round is justification enough to ditch it. I have a dream that a time will come when Linux becomes an excellent gaming platform supporting all the latest gaming goodness, I also believe in the tooth fairy and santa clause :) PS: I'm not a bachelor as Linux allows me to spend more time with my family even my 3 year old knows his way around a Linux PC why because its child's play, I dread to think what he would do if I said "Im sorry son but the PC has a virus that daddy needs to fix and it could be a while before you can watch your Diggers and Dump trucks on Youtube" thankfully with Linux this is a scenario I will never have to deal with! |
| Ridcully Jun 08, 2011 4:01 AM EDT |
@Caitlyn........I just read your wonderful "samiam" out to my wife for a very special reason. And yes, she can laugh now, but there was a time, many years ago, when she had to "babysit" five kids and each time she did so, they requested that she read Green Eggs and Ham as their bedtime story.........Little wonder that after dozens of readings, she worked up a considerable distaste(?) for the story.......but she can laugh at it now. Loved your version. :-) Very well done. (That should trigger a nerve in anybody with either RN, RNZN or RAN backgrounds.) |
| hkwint Jun 08, 2011 4:21 AM EDT |
Montezuma: Thanks for the laugh! Ridcully: I have been in contact with FSFE and they have been in contact with the EU DG about the issue you raised. Lots of times I wrote about it on LXer, but you may have missed it. In short, as I don't want to hijack the thread, a quick recap: -OEM's decide to bundle their products with Windows. Officialy, Microsoft is not forcing them. So it's not Microsoft causing their monopoly on "store PC's", but OEM's. -OEM's (think Dell, HP, Acer) don't have a dominant position (defined as "over 40% market share" here in EU), like Microsoft. If OEM's don't have a dominant position, they can't abuse it - against EU Treaty Article 81/82. -If Microsoft offers monetary incentives not to ship with Linux - like you and I are pretty sure they do - then probably they are in violation of 81/82. But there's no proof, as the contracts between MS and the OEM's are secret. And without "really strong reasons to believe they are in violation", there's no way they're going to raid offices, like for example the Dutch competition authority NMa regularly does. -Once I called the NMa, but they're not going to do anything about said issue. -Once I contacted 10 OEM's about the issue and their return policy. Most didn't respond, some like Acer have a return policy, some like HP / Toshiba think they're not required to do so. -Following actions like mine, MS changed the EULA: IIRC since 7 you can only receive a refund if you return the computer as well. -The DG of Competition of the EU is seriously understaffed. -Italian ADUC filed a formal complaint following the 'rules for complaining'. I heard via-via from the DG it's not a problem of nobody complaining, but a lack of proof and manpower. -The DG asked businesses to hand over any proof to them. But why would OEM's snitch? Snitching is usual here in the EU; the one who snitches about being part of a cartel doesn't have to pay fines. Think of the recent cases of steel / elevator / memory cartels. OEM's are pretty dependent on Microsoft, that's the issue. Microsoft OTOH isn't dependent on single OEM's. If one OEM doesn't want to cooperate, they'll raise Windows volume licensing prices for that OEM to such a level, they can't compete with the other OEM's who do work with Microsoft. If HP/Acer/Toshiba pay $20 per Windows license because on consumer desktops they don't sell FreeDOS/Ubuntu/bare, and Dell has to pay $50 per Windows license because they do offer Ubuntu, then Dell PC's with Windows will end up $30 more expensive than the competition at MediaMarkt/Saturn etc, guess who loses market share! In such a way, Microsoft is not forbidding OEM's to sell non-Windows computers, but given the dominance of Windows PC's, still effectively forcing them. As demand for Windows remains high, new entrants like Asus / MSI first weren't dependent on MS - so they could sell Linux like they did on the Eee. But consumers demanded Windows, so they became dependent and had to pull Linux prototypes from exhibitions (pretty sure because MS asked). As you probably recall Dell pulled within a day (!) an advert on their Ubuntu-offerings saying Linux suffers less from viruses then you-know-who. -For Dell et. all, as 99%+ of the people want Windows, they put the Windows images on the HD at their manufacturing locations in India; that's cheaper. Even if from time to time they have to refund $200 or so if some Lin-fanboy doesn't want it. Cheaper then selling no-OS and ask consumers in store what they want. That's the situation, and there's not much to be done about it. Except if tons of consumers - just for the sake of bullying and causing an administrative burden - buy lots of PC's, don't accept the MS EULA and return their PC to the stores. Only snitching OEM's can really change something. |
| Ridcully Jun 08, 2011 9:15 AM EDT |
Many thanks Hkwint.........I want to go away and digest your response very slowly. I haven't seen this sort of detail before. |
| Fettoosh Jun 08, 2011 12:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:OEM's decide to bundle their products with Windows. That is not all, they also refuse to offer a choice unless when buying a large quantity. True, legally there is nothing that can be done about it sans a proof. Customers to take action is far fetched, they either don't care, not convinced, or not united enough. But something can be done about it. Adopt a Linux-PC Among the multiple reasons why Linux adoption is slow, two main ones standout. Lack of commercial apps/games, and over all support. For home users, commercial apps are not of a big deal because for most, there are Open Source replacements and Virtual Machines to run Windows apps are available. Support could remove these barriers. So for home users, it boils down to support. So how does Adopt a Linux-PC work? There are many forums and support sites and I am sure they are doing good job, but are they organized and structured to give customer quality and friendly service? I don't think so. What is needed is a free/donation/subscription volunteer based Linux support center that would give professional support. Sort of a "Internet Help Desk" system that would furnish support no matter what distribution, application, or problem related to Linux is. Helios Project is doing a great job but, AFAIK, limited geographically and to supplying & supporting refurbished computers ONLY, why can't it be extended or a new project for a Help Desk System be created for support purposes? I think it is time to act. |
| skelband Jun 08, 2011 1:00 PM EDT |
@Koriel: "As far as i'm concerned if it weren't for gaming Windows would be a dead platform in my house." Our Ubuntu box running Wine 1.3 cutting edge has a special login called Gamer. We use that when we want to run games on the machine. I have to say that we don't run the absolutely most up-to-date games but the kids and I do enjoy Tomb Raider, Unreal Tournament (various versions), FarCry etc and they all run great under Linux. There are a few which won't but that list is quickly becoming vanishingly small. A year or two ago, I had the expectation that Wine would most likely not run a piece of Windows software. These days, I am more surprised when it doesn't work. |
| Koriel Jun 08, 2011 1:30 PM EDT |
@skelband Wine is fine for certain slightly older games but unless your willing to spend a lot of time fiddling on the newer ones then you might as well forget it especially if their is a good chance after all the fiddling it still wont work as Wine just lacks the support for it. I've also been down the Transgaming Cedega route and that was just plain awful, I hear Crossover is pretty good but still doesn't support the latest stuff. Also their is the video driver problem, ATI Catalyst linux driver is just total crap under wine and just about anything else. Their is a reason Mozilla dont allow hardware acceleration on Linux when an ATI card is present and only Nvidia is supported by them. So for now its a solitary Windows 7 box. |
| mbaehrlxer Jun 14, 2011 9:55 AM EDT |
it's true, linux really is only for batchelors.
i too switched to windows after i got married.
read the details of my plight here:
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.foresight.devel/1944 greetings, eMBee. |
| helios Jun 14, 2011 10:26 AM EDT |
If life were but a game, I could agree...Diane plays Pogo on Linux incessantly and has never had any problems. But again, I find myself a bit to0 busy to game, except the rare occasion of kicking someone's a$$ on a Nexuiz Lan. Other than that, I wouldn't agree to the MS Windows EULA with a gun to my head. If most thinking people would read it, they'd have to actually agree that their convenience is more important than their principles. Than again, those stuck using it at work are, uh...stuck using it at work. |
| BernardSwiss Jun 14, 2011 7:41 PM EDT |
Actually, it's true. I mean, if I used Windows at home, I'd be all up to date on fixing Windows issues, and at the coffee shop I could solve that pretty girl's Windows Woes in five maybe ten minutes. Or at least give an authoritative diagnosis ("The problem is that you're using Windows", just doesn't cut it). But as a Linux user, it takes me more like forty minutes, at least (probably more), so she loses patience, figures I'm a dweeb -- one who thinks he's a geek but doesn't really even "know computers" after all -- and she's out of time anyways and heads back to work or where-ever, carefully avoiding any signs of encouraging further contact... Yep, it's clear and obvious (self-evident, really) that Linux users are going to be bachelors... |
| gus3 Jun 14, 2011 8:29 PM EDT |
@Bernard, http://mindplusplus.wordpress.com/2004/09/19/an_important_an... If you need to actually, you know, LOOK at it, well, I suppose we can't all be gurus. More details at http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/69214.html |
| cr Jun 15, 2011 8:57 AM EDT |
caitlyn wrote: But heck, if Sam wants to use Windows more power to him. Just don't trash everyone who disagrees. And see if you can get his home address. Every so often there's gonna be a Windows box out at the curb there on trash-collection day because the HD's full of worms, or the registry is b0rk3d, or the cup-holder won't retract, or the ashtrays are full. That's another box you can run Linux on without paying a cent of Redmond tax. |
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