- Site menu:
- Latest Discussions
- Latest Newswire
- Archives
- Submit Story
- Story HOWTO
- Syndicate
- E-mail Alerts
Linux Journal: How Not To Run A Business
Here we are at the sad, sorry end of our Linux Journal saga, with an unhappy conclusion. (Please see the links at the end for the previous articles in this series.) Here is a synopsis of our story so far:
Apologizing For The Abusive SpouseDoc Searls made a few private apologies here and there, just like back in 2000, talk about deja vú, but it was never clear if he was speaking for the magazine, or just making excuses like an abused spouse ("Officer, $spouse didn't mean it! It's just been all this stress lately!")I'm Not Offended, So You Shouldn't Be EitherI received a lot of private communications both from a number of people associated in various ways with Linux Journal, and from my own loyal network of spies.What I hear from my spy network is that the publisher and senior editors think the ad is screamingly funny; they don't get why readers are upset; they don't care that readers are upset; and they're just going to sit back and let it blow over. Carlie Fairchild, the publisher and owner since December 2006, has been involved with Linux Journal since 1995. So it's safe to say the buck stops with her. I have to wonder- where on Earth did Ms. Fairchild get the idea that alienating her customers is a good business practice? So what if she finds sexist, demeaning humor funny? It doesn't belong in Linux Journal. I paid my subscription money in good faith for many years, trusting to receive good Linux articles. If I want to read about blowjobs or read about how helpless and stupid women are, I don't expect to find it in Linux Journal. There are abundant sources for that elsewhere. I am somewhat amused by the many "I'm not offended, so you shouldn't be either" comments in the discussions about this. This is a weird and stupid thing to say. What do your feelings have to do with me? That's approaching an unhealthy level of narcissism. Money TalksAnyway I suspect that the humor quotient is far less important than the money quotient. Which complicates the question of who is the customer here? I suspect that Ms. Fairchild considers the advertisers to be her real customers, and us subscribers and readers to be unfortunately necessary annoyances.Clueless R UsBut that doesn't excuse Linux Journal's long and sorry record of portraying women as idiots and bimbos- the blowjob ad was merely the final slap in the face. It's a technical magazine- all they had to do was stick to Linux topics and refrain from insulting readers. Leave out the blowjobs, leave out the stupid cartoon ads that portray us as helpless bimbos needing rescue by studly geeks, fire the person who came up with Gnull and Voyd, and also the person who approved it for publication.Linux Journal's sister publication, Tux Magazine, brought to us the absolutely horrible Mango Parfait, which I swear was written by a dorky middle-aged man trying to sound like a hip teenage girl. Dude- you failed. She sounds like a twittering fool who just can't go a minute without mentioning her boyfriend or how cute she is. I guess you missed the part where us womens learned to be capable professionals without having to talk about our boyfriends and our looks incessantly. (And those of us who have girlfriends can do it too.) We actually know how to talk and behave professionally, if you can imagine what that is like. I figure I've written maybe three-quarters of a million words over the course of my technical writing career. I never felt that my readers had to be reassured that there was a man in my life just to assure them of my credibility, which was fortunate because I never had one. I never had to include sex acts, either. While we're on the subject of general cluelessness, one of the editors of Tux Magazine joined the Freespire Leadership board while he was still editor. What parts of "conflict of interest" and "journalists don't do that" were so hard to understand? A few years ago their editor-in-chief du jour (they have a hard time keeping the job filled) approached Linuxchix.org to ask what they could do to increase the number of women subscribers. We offered a number of ideas: more women authors. Cut out the insulting crap. Some ideas for topics, like hardware reviews where the products are actually tested and not just regurgitated press releases, more information on hardware compatibility, more articles on networking and system administration, and fewer on nine-foot tall Ultimate PCs made of plywood, and some other cool things I forget. Nothing dopey like "paint it pink." Just make it relevant, interesting, and not offensive. As anyone who continued to read the magazine knows, all of that went nowhere. What Do Clueful Businesses Do?They don't ignore customer complaints, but respond as quickly as possible and try to make things right. They don't insult their customers or potential customers in the first place. I wonder if the giggles the folks at LJ had over the blowjob ad made up for the bad publicity and loss of readers.What Next?Nothing much. Linux Journal has lost me as a reader and supporter, as well as a number of other people. My original goal was to discuss these issues with the publisher or general manager, because I've felt for years that Linux Journal is an important publication that deserves our support. All they had to do was quit being obnoxious- what's so hard about that?Please Read Before You RantFirst two articles:Linux Journal: the Last Idiot's Club Dear Linux Journal: News Flash- Women Are People
QSOL breaks their tasteless advertising promise Who Runs This Show?Ownership of Linux Journal and Tux Magazine is rather convoluted; the two consistent people in charge are Phil Hughes and Carlie Fairchild. Desktoplinux.com does a bit of genealogy:
"Linux Journal, meanwhile, was acquired from SSC in December of 2006 by Belltown Media Inc., based in Houston, Texas. Belltown Media, in turn, was founded by Carlie Fairchild..."
Hall of ShameTech Tips with Gnull and Voyd. Try to count how many different people can be denigrated in a single article:
That's just a sampling that you can still find online. I threw away all of my years of Linux Journals last spring in a fit of tidiness, so (perhaps thankfully) I don't have more horrid examples for you, and believe me there are plenty.
OTOH, I am curious if there is even a single instance where a woman was portrayed with her own photograph, as a Linux professional. All I remember are odious cartoons.
Mango Parfait is in a class of annoying all her own:
"Executive editor Jill Franklin is almost as
pretty as I am too, but she is too busy to be
me. Maybe they are not as pretty as I am,
but I am still jealous of Carlie and Jill. They
have boyfriends who pay attention to
them. Are you reading this, Otaku? For one
minute I think maybe they have boyfriends
who pay attention because they are really
prettier than I am. But that is impossible.
I am glad to disappoint all of you. I
am simply Mango Parfait, the most cute,
brilliant and humble Manga girl I know."
Be grateful I didn't copy the entire passage. You can read it in its entirety if you have a strong stomach. Just think if all those paragraphs had been devoted to some useful Linux howtos, instead of nauseating readers en masse- maybe Tux Magazine would still be alive. They should have kept Marcel Gagné as the editor in chief; then they would have delivered good content and not ruined it with stupid stuff.
|
Comments (133)
LJ: writing off half the population is stupid, not funny
I've go three daughters, too, as well as two sisters, a wife and a mother.
I seem to be less upset than most by the ad, but I'm really upset that the folks at LJ haven't figured out that you can make the same joke without being demeaning. Oh sure they'll still offend the professional nose-out-of-jointers, but everything does.
Picture it more like this -- everything is the same except for the text:
" Well, what did you expect, sport? It's like our servers. Sure, they look great, but the real beauty lies under the covers in our frapnabbits and watchamacallits and our Linux OS. Treat them with respect and appreciation, and they might just take you places you never imagined."
I seem to be less upset than most by the ad, but I'm really upset that the folks at LJ haven't figured out that you can make the same joke without being demeaning. Oh sure they'll still offend the professional nose-out-of-jointers, but everything does.
Picture it more like this -- everything is the same except for the text:
" Well, what did you expect, sport? It's like our servers. Sure, they look great, but the real beauty lies under the covers in our frapnabbits and watchamacallits and our Linux OS. Treat them with respect and appreciation, and they might just take you places you never imagined."
So it looks like they've lost 3 customers now. I wonder how long it will take at this rate to make a difference? Get the point?
Albert
Albert
Lost me, too. I won't buy an issue of LJ, either as a subscriber, or off the newsstand, until Petreley is gone. Margaret Richardson was gone less than a month after this ad ran the first time seven years ago; Petreley deserves the same.
While I agree that it's not at all professional, and the Gnull and Voyd and Mango Parfait jokes are less than infantile, I can't say that I'm in the least upset by the Ads in question, I don't find them offensive or demeaning, They don't bother me at all. I can understand that you do, but to me they are merely pathetic, and rather than feeling offended, or demeaned myself, I think it demonstrates the inadequacies of the people who created them. My low opinion of advertising people is merely confirmed.
tracyanne:
Well, I am not offended either, not in a direct way anwyay, but there is something one must understand about this type of thing. The idea that "IT people" - programmers, system administrators, etc. - are all male, gets reinforced over and over again. This makes it harder for legitimately skilled women to get jobs in that industry. It may not offend everyone, but it is harmful.
Well, I am not offended either, not in a direct way anwyay, but there is something one must understand about this type of thing. The idea that "IT people" - programmers, system administrators, etc. - are all male, gets reinforced over and over again. This makes it harder for legitimately skilled women to get jobs in that industry. It may not offend everyone, but it is harmful.
>The idea that "IT people" - programmers, system administrators, etc. - are all male,
Question:
Would you find this ad offensive, then, if the magazine acknowledged the existence of women in other ways?
Must every ad always address the entire market, or is it ok for an advertiser to address particular ads to a segment of the market? After all, I know that companies in the travel industry have specific ads aimed at gay travelers. Other ads target the straight trade.
Mind you, you've got to be careful how you do that. You might not want to start an ad that targets Latinos with "So fed up with all those stupid and smelly gringos that you'd just like to kill them all?"
Question:
Would you find this ad offensive, then, if the magazine acknowledged the existence of women in other ways?
Must every ad always address the entire market, or is it ok for an advertiser to address particular ads to a segment of the market? After all, I know that companies in the travel industry have specific ads aimed at gay travelers. Other ads target the straight trade.
Mind you, you've got to be careful how you do that. You might not want to start an ad that targets Latinos with "So fed up with all those stupid and smelly gringos that you'd just like to kill them all?"
The way I understand it, it's not just this ad that's the issue, but that LJ makes a habit out of painting this stereotype.
As for that ad. Well, if the magazine was called Linux Blokes, and was specifically and openly aimed at males, then the ad would likely not have gotten such a nasty reception. Unless of course you are offended by women portrayed as sex objects, which I am sure a magazine called "Linux Blokes" might be so full of anyway that the blowjob ad would hardly even be noticed.
Tech magazines have a habit of being male-oriented though... bikini-and-iPod-clad women on the front cover - that sort of thing. And these are not guy-mags (supposedly), they are just tech mags that happen to carry the "technology is for men" subtext.
Advertising should not necessarily always target everyone, of course. Llike advertising panty-liners to men. But it's really daft to have an advert single out a demographic that has every right to be a prospective customer.
An aside: That ad also seems to only target single men or ones who'd consider cheating on their signifcant others.
As for that ad. Well, if the magazine was called Linux Blokes, and was specifically and openly aimed at males, then the ad would likely not have gotten such a nasty reception. Unless of course you are offended by women portrayed as sex objects, which I am sure a magazine called "Linux Blokes" might be so full of anyway that the blowjob ad would hardly even be noticed.
Tech magazines have a habit of being male-oriented though... bikini-and-iPod-clad women on the front cover - that sort of thing. And these are not guy-mags (supposedly), they are just tech mags that happen to carry the "technology is for men" subtext.
Advertising should not necessarily always target everyone, of course. Llike advertising panty-liners to men. But it's really daft to have an advert single out a demographic that has every right to be a prospective customer.
An aside: That ad also seems to only target single men or ones who'd consider cheating on their signifcant others.
Quoting:This makes it harder for legitimately skilled women to get jobs in that industry. It may not offend everyone, but it is harmful.
I agree, on the other hand, I've never come across anything like that here in Australia. I suppose it exists, but I've never encountered it, and nor do I know anyone who has.
Must every ad always address the entire market, or is it ok for an advertiser to address particular ads to a segment of the market? After all, I know that companies in the travel industry have specific ads aimed at gay travelers. Other ads target the straight trade.
No, that would be silly. But if you're going to address one segment of the market, you don't have to offend another. I'd prefer that any magazine I subscribe to be trying to expand the market to Linux, instead of just targeting males. I'm not any happier with the "men are stupid" trend I see in other types of advertising.
No, that would be silly. But if you're going to address one segment of the market, you don't have to offend another. I'd prefer that any magazine I subscribe to be trying to expand the market to Linux, instead of just targeting males. I'm not any happier with the "men are stupid" trend I see in other types of advertising.
Quoting:Must every ad always address the entire market,
They never do. Ads always address a market segment.
The word on the street is that Nick Petreley was let go last week from Linux Journal. Not sure if it was directly related to this or just the general direction of the magazine.
>The word on the street is that Nick Petreley was let go last week from Linux Journal.
Yeah...verified on Nick's varlinux.org.
If he was let go for the ad, somebody is seriously goofy, me thinks. Advertising and general content tend not to mix. I suppose he could be a fall guy. After all, TC's comments indicate that the higher ups had no problem with the ad.
Yeah...verified on Nick's varlinux.org.
If he was let go for the ad, somebody is seriously goofy, me thinks. Advertising and general content tend not to mix. I suppose he could be a fall guy. After all, TC's comments indicate that the higher ups had no problem with the ad.
People like to rant because it makes them feel relevant.
"then don't write off half the population with your sniggering locker room attitude"
It isn't half the population, a very small sliver actually. So by writing off the small minority they're probably appealing to the vast majority which equals money.
"The idea that "IT people" - programmers, system administrators, etc. - are all male, gets reinforced over and over again."
Aren't they? There are exceptions but most are. I teach Linux classes at the college level and only 20% of my students are women. Is it because there's someone at the classroom door mocking them so they don't feel comfortable coming to class or is it because the majority just aren't interested. A smaller percentage actually make it in the industry after getting their degree and most (not all) of the reason is they don't excel where they need to. A small small percentage take the world by storm.
At the point that the women outnumber the men the attitude will change because now women would be a bigger market and where the money is. Do you really think that will ever happen? At some point it isn't about prejudice anymore, it's just what is.
I don't read tech magazines to see ads. As a matter of fact I read all LJs and I never saw the ad. If you buy it to read the ads maybe you should pick a different magazine.
I think another thing needs to be addressed here as well. We've gotten so sensitive about everything that we no longer have what this great country was founded on - freedom. Yes we've gotten so free we aren't. We can't show and ad of a black guy with a basketball because then we're stereotyping black people and some short black guy will get upset, you can't tell the girl in the next cubicle that she looks nice or you'll lose your job and be taken to court (if you're lucky), you can't put an Indian guy running a 7-11 in a cartoon etc... It goes on and on. You can't put a guy getting a bj in an advertisement when in reality most women have given one and most guys have gotten one. We'll get to the point in time where we'll be fined for acknowledging real life.
We live in a knee-jerk society where everyone thinks everything has to do with them. If someone pulls in front of you on the freeway you have to get upset because your rights as a red blooded American were wronged. At the very least you honk or yell and unfortunately some drivers might go as far as popping a cap in the trunk of the offender. In any Latin-American country or most of Europe this wouldn't even get a reaction because that's just the way they drive.
If the magazine doesn't have anything good in it then don't read it - period, we're done, move on. At the slightest hint of offense people get the rope. We have as humans the ability to process emotion however we want. If you feel you MUST get upset about something focus on the c02 levels in the atmosphere or global hunger...
BTW - If anyone should get upset it should the head Unix admin at work because not only is she a woman but she's gay so the ad REALLY wasn't aimed at her, but she didn't, she like me was too busy reading the articles about Linux.
"then don't write off half the population with your sniggering locker room attitude"
It isn't half the population, a very small sliver actually. So by writing off the small minority they're probably appealing to the vast majority which equals money.
"The idea that "IT people" - programmers, system administrators, etc. - are all male, gets reinforced over and over again."
Aren't they? There are exceptions but most are. I teach Linux classes at the college level and only 20% of my students are women. Is it because there's someone at the classroom door mocking them so they don't feel comfortable coming to class or is it because the majority just aren't interested. A smaller percentage actually make it in the industry after getting their degree and most (not all) of the reason is they don't excel where they need to. A small small percentage take the world by storm.
At the point that the women outnumber the men the attitude will change because now women would be a bigger market and where the money is. Do you really think that will ever happen? At some point it isn't about prejudice anymore, it's just what is.
I don't read tech magazines to see ads. As a matter of fact I read all LJs and I never saw the ad. If you buy it to read the ads maybe you should pick a different magazine.
I think another thing needs to be addressed here as well. We've gotten so sensitive about everything that we no longer have what this great country was founded on - freedom. Yes we've gotten so free we aren't. We can't show and ad of a black guy with a basketball because then we're stereotyping black people and some short black guy will get upset, you can't tell the girl in the next cubicle that she looks nice or you'll lose your job and be taken to court (if you're lucky), you can't put an Indian guy running a 7-11 in a cartoon etc... It goes on and on. You can't put a guy getting a bj in an advertisement when in reality most women have given one and most guys have gotten one. We'll get to the point in time where we'll be fined for acknowledging real life.
We live in a knee-jerk society where everyone thinks everything has to do with them. If someone pulls in front of you on the freeway you have to get upset because your rights as a red blooded American were wronged. At the very least you honk or yell and unfortunately some drivers might go as far as popping a cap in the trunk of the offender. In any Latin-American country or most of Europe this wouldn't even get a reaction because that's just the way they drive.
If the magazine doesn't have anything good in it then don't read it - period, we're done, move on. At the slightest hint of offense people get the rope. We have as humans the ability to process emotion however we want. If you feel you MUST get upset about something focus on the c02 levels in the atmosphere or global hunger...
BTW - If anyone should get upset it should the head Unix admin at work because not only is she a woman but she's gay so the ad REALLY wasn't aimed at her, but she didn't, she like me was too busy reading the articles about Linux.
"Must every ad always address the entire market, or is it ok for an advertiser to address particular ads to a segment of the market?...if you're going to address one segment of the market, you don't have to offend another."
Exactly.
According to my spies, Nick Petreley left for reasons not related to this, and he and Ms. Fairchild were both all a-giggle over the ad. Never mind that it insults men (stereotype loser geeks who can't get girlfriends) and women (not geeks, just boytoys), never mind that it is nowhere near "edgy", but is an old, worn-out joke; they think it's the bee knees. And it came with a fat check attached, which is probably its most compelling virtue.
Margie Richardson, according to the grapevine, left because she could not get along with Phil Hughs. Which makes her a member of a large club. Carlie Fairchild owns and controls the magazine now, and has been running it for a number of years. She bears the ultimate responsibility.
As I tried to make clear in the article, it's not just this ad. It's a set of ingrained and incurable bad values and attitudes. When Kevin Shockey, who was editor in chief of Tux Magazine, joined the board at Freespire that should have resulted in an ultimatum- quit the board or quit being editor. But no, it was all fine, no conflict of interest here. Sheesh.
Exactly.
According to my spies, Nick Petreley left for reasons not related to this, and he and Ms. Fairchild were both all a-giggle over the ad. Never mind that it insults men (stereotype loser geeks who can't get girlfriends) and women (not geeks, just boytoys), never mind that it is nowhere near "edgy", but is an old, worn-out joke; they think it's the bee knees. And it came with a fat check attached, which is probably its most compelling virtue.
Margie Richardson, according to the grapevine, left because she could not get along with Phil Hughs. Which makes her a member of a large club. Carlie Fairchild owns and controls the magazine now, and has been running it for a number of years. She bears the ultimate responsibility.
As I tried to make clear in the article, it's not just this ad. It's a set of ingrained and incurable bad values and attitudes. When Kevin Shockey, who was editor in chief of Tux Magazine, joined the board at Freespire that should have resulted in an ultimatum- quit the board or quit being editor. But no, it was all fine, no conflict of interest here. Sheesh.
I just wrote a rather long post about why only 20% of your students are women, and decided to just delete it. You don't really get it and likely never will.
>The idea that "IT people" - programmers, system administrators, etc. - are all male,
It's even worse. While my wife entered the IT world earlier than I did many people think she will only serve the thee and coffee.
The bank account managers, tax inspectors and so on always ask for me in a meeting while I don't know anything what they're talking about. Only the accountant understands, she a women. :-)
It's even worse. While my wife entered the IT world earlier than I did many people think she will only serve the thee and coffee.
The bank account managers, tax inspectors and so on always ask for me in a meeting while I don't know anything what they're talking about. Only the accountant understands, she a women. :-)
I'm stunned...
Carla,
I read your post completely tonight, including all of the links, and I have to say it has opened my eyes to something I hadn't paid attention before. Yes, I suppose that means that I've been part of the problem. I've never been sexist (toward/against men/women) in my life, but I have been like many people out there. I ignored things like the QSOL ad. I read Linux Journal, but never noticed the ad. I also never read Gnull and Voyd, although reading it now, I understand why I was never attracted to read it. I did read Mango Partait because I liked the tips, but always found it distracting, annoying and bizarre to read "her" personal comments.
And, therein lies my problem, and the problem many people have: we tend to allow things that we know are wrong to just slip by, unchallenged. Perhaps its something akin to people watching a mugging and just walking by. To change anything in the world, you first have to notice it. Then you have to become angry. Then you have to do something about it. Otherwise, we'd still be living in the dark ages.
I found the posting by mattcaron on LiveJournal to be telling. He and his friends weren't offended by the QSOL ad, so it must not be offensive. By his reasoning, making fun of people with mental illnesses must be okay if the majority of people don't object. People with mental illnesses are the minority, so their opinion doesn't matter. I wonder what he would say if the majority of people were offended by pictures of men with cats squished into the side of their face. Ha, ha, ha... I think you get my point, mattcaron.
To add more complexity to the whole situation, I was struck by ads that appeared on the Feministing page you linked to. Tonight, there were Google ads for "Sexy Women" that led to a porn directory. And, one titled "Find sexy women here" with a subtext reading "Get your hands on the most powerful method to attract the hottest women." The link from that one took me to a page with, among other things, "Learn about... The psychology behind compelling women to chase you... even when they're out of your league." I'm not sure whether it's men or women, or both, who should be most offended with that portrayal. The same Feministing page also had a display ad for sex toys picturing a woman tied up at the ankle.
The point is that sexism is so incredibly woven into our society that even a feminist Web site can perpetuate it. We are none of innocent and we still have a long way to go to change centuries of attitudes and behaviours. Back to my original point: change can only happen with awareness, followed by action. Which is a long route to saying that you are helping to create awareness, which I thank you for. As for the action: I will follow the link to Linux Journal to express my objections. And, I've bought my last issue of Linux Journal.
Stephen Wilson Toronto, Canada
I read your post completely tonight, including all of the links, and I have to say it has opened my eyes to something I hadn't paid attention before. Yes, I suppose that means that I've been part of the problem. I've never been sexist (toward/against men/women) in my life, but I have been like many people out there. I ignored things like the QSOL ad. I read Linux Journal, but never noticed the ad. I also never read Gnull and Voyd, although reading it now, I understand why I was never attracted to read it. I did read Mango Partait because I liked the tips, but always found it distracting, annoying and bizarre to read "her" personal comments.
And, therein lies my problem, and the problem many people have: we tend to allow things that we know are wrong to just slip by, unchallenged. Perhaps its something akin to people watching a mugging and just walking by. To change anything in the world, you first have to notice it. Then you have to become angry. Then you have to do something about it. Otherwise, we'd still be living in the dark ages.
I found the posting by mattcaron on LiveJournal to be telling. He and his friends weren't offended by the QSOL ad, so it must not be offensive. By his reasoning, making fun of people with mental illnesses must be okay if the majority of people don't object. People with mental illnesses are the minority, so their opinion doesn't matter. I wonder what he would say if the majority of people were offended by pictures of men with cats squished into the side of their face. Ha, ha, ha... I think you get my point, mattcaron.
To add more complexity to the whole situation, I was struck by ads that appeared on the Feministing page you linked to. Tonight, there were Google ads for "Sexy Women" that led to a porn directory. And, one titled "Find sexy women here" with a subtext reading "Get your hands on the most powerful method to attract the hottest women." The link from that one took me to a page with, among other things, "Learn about... The psychology behind compelling women to chase you... even when they're out of your league." I'm not sure whether it's men or women, or both, who should be most offended with that portrayal. The same Feministing page also had a display ad for sex toys picturing a woman tied up at the ankle.
The point is that sexism is so incredibly woven into our society that even a feminist Web site can perpetuate it. We are none of innocent and we still have a long way to go to change centuries of attitudes and behaviours. Back to my original point: change can only happen with awareness, followed by action. Which is a long route to saying that you are helping to create awareness, which I thank you for. As for the action: I will follow the link to Linux Journal to express my objections. And, I've bought my last issue of Linux Journal.
Stephen Wilson Toronto, Canada
QUOTE
The point is that sexism is so incredibly woven into our society that even a feminist Web site can perpetuate it.
/QUOTE
Very true, and therein lies the issue of stereotypes. Personally, I agree with the series of recent posts about chauvinism in computer science, but what I don't like are situations where it get ascribed to open source, which is irrelevant in this case. Please correct me if I missed something.
Very true, and therein lies the issue of stereotypes. Personally, I agree with the series of recent posts about chauvinism in computer science, but what I don't like are situations where it get ascribed to open source, which is irrelevant in this case. Please correct me if I missed something.
Quoting:but what I don't like are situations where it get ascribed to open source, which is irrelevant in this case. Please correct me if I missed something.
Well, if you observe KDE Commit Digest, you can see that the percentage of female committers made a huge 300% jump a few weeks ago: from around 0.6% to around 2.0%. I've been always amazed at this number. I'm not saying that KDE is sexist, but that's telling anyway... IMHO. [and remember the quote about statistics ;)]
"On teh intarweb, no one knows your a gurl."
But seriously, is it possible there is less female participation simply because there is less female participation?
If I make a blog page, it's going to relate issues like guns, individual responsibility, flight, scifi, and very likely references to physically attractive women.
Is that sexist? Without doubt, someone will think so.
If some woman "objectified" me positively, I'd be flattered.
But seriously, is it possible there is less female participation simply because there is less female participation?
If I make a blog page, it's going to relate issues like guns, individual responsibility, flight, scifi, and very likely references to physically attractive women.
Is that sexist? Without doubt, someone will think so.
If some woman "objectified" me positively, I'd be flattered.
But a blog is not a journal aiming to be a respected voice. Neither is it an advert likely to be shown on many web pages where the viewer has no choice in it's appearance.
Context, as ever, is everything.
Context, as ever, is everything.
"Personally, I agree with the series of recent posts about chauvinism in computer science"
Can someone tell what's wrong with Chauvinism? This entire country was founded on it.
Can someone tell what's wrong with Chauvinism? This entire country was founded on it.
"Neither is it an advert likely to be shown on many web pages where the viewer has no choice in it's appearance."
Um, somebody doesn't spend enough time surfing the web. The ads on the web are worse than any you've ever seen in LJ and no you don't have a lot of choice in getting the. Let me ask one thing. Did you read any of the articles in the magazine or just the ads?
"But seriously, is it possible there is less female participation simply because there is less female participation?"
At the request of a Linux using woman friend I decided I would see if I could answer some questions in the Linux Chix mailing list because she said there were questions that were being asked that nobody could answer. I have acquired quite a bit of Linux knowledge over the years so I figured I could help some other Linux users. I monitored the conversation for about two weeks and countless times the threads would just degenerate into women bashing men because of them not giving the women a fair chance. It wasn't about Linux at all, it was about women getting upset and other women consoling them. I gave up. The ones that actually wanted to discuss Linux left and joined a non-gender related forum. My friend canceled the mailing list subscription.
This isn't about LJ or blow jobs or Linux. It's about women wanting to voice their feelings and be acknowledged in return.
Um, somebody doesn't spend enough time surfing the web. The ads on the web are worse than any you've ever seen in LJ and no you don't have a lot of choice in getting the. Let me ask one thing. Did you read any of the articles in the magazine or just the ads?
"But seriously, is it possible there is less female participation simply because there is less female participation?"
At the request of a Linux using woman friend I decided I would see if I could answer some questions in the Linux Chix mailing list because she said there were questions that were being asked that nobody could answer. I have acquired quite a bit of Linux knowledge over the years so I figured I could help some other Linux users. I monitored the conversation for about two weeks and countless times the threads would just degenerate into women bashing men because of them not giving the women a fair chance. It wasn't about Linux at all, it was about women getting upset and other women consoling them. I gave up. The ones that actually wanted to discuss Linux left and joined a non-gender related forum. My friend canceled the mailing list subscription.
This isn't about LJ or blow jobs or Linux. It's about women wanting to voice their feelings and be acknowledged in return.
wow canadianwriterm, thanks for an articulate summary of pretty much all the key issues.
That's interesting about the ads on Feminista, because Google ads are configurable. I believe that here on LXer they are tuned to not serve up Microsoft ads. Maybe it's a case of "money trumps everything."
Nice post, thanks.
That's interesting about the ads on Feminista, because Google ads are configurable. I believe that here on LXer they are tuned to not serve up Microsoft ads. Maybe it's a case of "money trumps everything."
Nice post, thanks.
> But a blog is not a journal aiming to be a respected voice.
Ah! And here we come back to the idea of boycott. They may have been aiming to be a respected voice, but _they didn't hit the target_!
That means they get to be ignored.
The better, more reliable voices will be the ones respected.
Maybe, just maybe, respect is _earned_.
Ah! And here we come back to the idea of boycott. They may have been aiming to be a respected voice, but _they didn't hit the target_!
That means they get to be ignored.
The better, more reliable voices will be the ones respected.
Maybe, just maybe, respect is _earned_.
> The better, more reliable voices will be the ones respected.
What's actually probably going to happen with Linux Journal is that their readership base will decline and then stagnate while the Linux user population grows. Eventually the major publishing houses will see the potential market and put out Linux magazines to match the current Windows magazines. They'll take over the market, and Linux Journal will fade away into insignificance.
Or, maybe they'll decide to drop all pretenses and become the FHM/Maxim of the Linux magazine market, thus ensuring their continued existence as a niche magazine. Some would say they're already well on their way.
What's actually probably going to happen with Linux Journal is that their readership base will decline and then stagnate while the Linux user population grows. Eventually the major publishing houses will see the potential market and put out Linux magazines to match the current Windows magazines. They'll take over the market, and Linux Journal will fade away into insignificance.
Or, maybe they'll decide to drop all pretenses and become the FHM/Maxim of the Linux magazine market, thus ensuring their continued existence as a niche magazine. Some would say they're already well on their way.
Me too
LJ (and Tux) lost me a good while ago. Their inane editorial content got to me before the ads did. Still, I've followed this thread since the August ad was released and never realized it'd been run twice. Inexcusable.
Think about how this makes the community look as a whole
I hadn't noticed the offensive content personally, but I too am very disappointed in LJ for their poor taste. One thing they need to ask themselves is "how is this going to reflect on the Linux community?". Well, IMHO, I think it makes the Linux community look bad and makes us look like we're sexist.
My friends, that is NOT the way to win friends and influence people! To anyone who thinks it is, you've got another thing coming!
Linux is a clearly technically superior operating system to Windows, yet it seems like someone or other within the community is sabotaging it and the chance it has to become mainstream. Several years ago it was all the infighting between different camps such as RPM vs. DEB, GNOME vs. KDE, etc. And now this, which has NO business whatsoever in a Linux magazine!
WAKE UP, LJ! If Linux is going to gain a significant market share on the desktop, then you're going to need to knock it off with this demeaning attitude toward women or else it's gonna make Linux look bad, and when we're trying to deliver the TKO to that Goliath from Redmond, that is NOT the image Linux needs, and it's NOT FUNNY!
For the record, unless LJ gets their act together, I'm not about to buy LJ whenever I'm at Barnes & Noble or Borders. I think a boycott of LJ and its affiliated publications may be in order here. LJ, does the word BOYCOTT mean anything to you? It should, unless you don't mind seeing LJ cease publication -- which it will if you don't change your attitudes toward women.
My friends, that is NOT the way to win friends and influence people! To anyone who thinks it is, you've got another thing coming!
Linux is a clearly technically superior operating system to Windows, yet it seems like someone or other within the community is sabotaging it and the chance it has to become mainstream. Several years ago it was all the infighting between different camps such as RPM vs. DEB, GNOME vs. KDE, etc. And now this, which has NO business whatsoever in a Linux magazine!
WAKE UP, LJ! If Linux is going to gain a significant market share on the desktop, then you're going to need to knock it off with this demeaning attitude toward women or else it's gonna make Linux look bad, and when we're trying to deliver the TKO to that Goliath from Redmond, that is NOT the image Linux needs, and it's NOT FUNNY!
For the record, unless LJ gets their act together, I'm not about to buy LJ whenever I'm at Barnes & Noble or Borders. I think a boycott of LJ and its affiliated publications may be in order here. LJ, does the word BOYCOTT mean anything to you? It should, unless you don't mind seeing LJ cease publication -- which it will if you don't change your attitudes toward women.
"I hadn't noticed the offensive content personally,"
And most people wouldn't have either if it wasn't for Carla's promotion campaign.
"Linux is a clearly technically superior operating system to Windows," Which has nothing to do with market share: VHS won!
"For the record, unless LJ gets their act together," Sorry, but there is way enough politically correct bullshit around, there is no need to ask for more hypocrite and watered down to the point of tasteless, disney-like Orwellian environment.
"Linux is a clearly technically superior operating system to Windows," Which has nothing to do with market share: VHS won!
"For the record, unless LJ gets their act together," Sorry, but there is way enough politically correct bullshit around, there is no need to ask for more hypocrite and watered down to the point of tasteless, disney-like Orwellian environment.
> Sorry, but there is way enough politically correct bullshit around, there is no need to ask for more hypocrite and watered down to the point of tasteless, disney-like Orwellian environment.
Woot! (I think that is the first time I have ever typed that)
However, Disney-like crap _sells_. Just ask my 4-year old.
However, Disney-like crap _sells_. Just ask my 4-year old.
> ...and watered down to the point of tasteless...
Well, tasteless definitely describes the ad which prompted this discussion. So I don't guess you have to ask for it where Linux Journal is concerned.
Well, tasteless definitely describes the ad which prompted this discussion. So I don't guess you have to ask for it where Linux Journal is concerned.
lies, fallacies and mis-representations
32 earlier comments in the full thread.
Hmm, over twelve hours and nothing new...
Aw, what happened to our widdle twolls? Did we'uns hurt their feelings?
Aw, what happened to our widdle twolls? Did we'uns hurt their feelings?
Oh geez, don't encourage them! It's more fun to concentrate on dissecting dino's posts with faultless surgical precision and remorseless, irrefutable logic.
> It's more fun to concentrate on dissecting dino's posts with faultless surgical precision and remorseless, irrefutable logic.
Well, yes. It is. There's a slight change in the degree of difficulty though. :)
Well, yes. It is. There's a slight change in the degree of difficulty though. :)
>It's more fun to concentrate on dissecting dino's posts with faultless surgical precision and remorseless, irrefutable logic.
I would think so. I wonder why nobody around here has tried that?
I would think so. I wonder why nobody around here has tried that?
> I wonder why nobody around here has tried that?
I don't think you're giving Abe enough credit Dino. Whether he's succeeding or not, he's trying.
I don't think you're giving Abe enough credit Dino. Whether he's succeeding or not, he's trying.
I don't think dino actually believes a lot of what he writes.
He just likes to watch things burn, so when he sees a small flame, he pours on the gasoline. :)
He just likes to watch things burn, so when he sees a small flame, he pours on the gasoline. :)
>I don't think dino actually believes a lot of what he writes.
Actually, I do believe a lot (not all) of what I write, but not a lot of what people infer from what I write.
It drives me up a wall, though, when people try to make up arguments to avoid their true motivations -- something that happens a lot in life, including FOSSland.
It leads to silliness and contradiction and that drives me up a wall.
Almost as much as when I am wrong. Fortunately, that never happens. ;0)
Actually, I do believe a lot (not all) of what I write, but not a lot of what people infer from what I write.
It drives me up a wall, though, when people try to make up arguments to avoid their true motivations -- something that happens a lot in life, including FOSSland.
It leads to silliness and contradiction and that drives me up a wall.
Almost as much as when I am wrong. Fortunately, that never happens. ;0)
> ... drives me up a wall.
> Almost as much as when I am wrong.
> Fortunately, that never happens. ;0)
Is the view good from up there? :)
Is the view good from up there? :)
>Is the view good from up there? :)
It would be better if you guys shaped up and got your acts together...
It would be better if you guys shaped up and got your acts together...
> ...and got your acts together...
Dino, I'll have you know that my act is completely together. Well, as soon as my wife gets done setting up the stage props. And the costumes get back from the cleaners. And the Siberian tigers arrive from the zoo. And....
Dino, I'll have you know that my act is completely together. Well, as soon as my wife gets done setting up the stage props. And the costumes get back from the cleaners. And the Siberian tigers arrive from the zoo. And....
I pity the poor director who tries to direct this herd of cats!
Perhaps for some people he's hoping it's a disappearing act.
>And the Siberian tigers
You've got Siberian tigers?
I am soooooo jealous. I tried painting stripes on my daughter's rabbit, but it just isn't the same.
You've got Siberian tigers?
I am soooooo jealous. I tried painting stripes on my daughter's rabbit, but it just isn't the same.
> I tried painting stripes on my daughter's rabbit, but it just isn't the same.
It's because you didn't glue tiger teeth onto the rabbit.
It's because you didn't glue tiger teeth onto the rabbit.
>It's because you didn't glue tiger teeth onto the rabbit.
Ahhh!!!!
Ahhh!!!!
> You've got Siberian tigers?
No. The zoo is being somewhat intransigent about the matter. :(
No. The zoo is being somewhat intransigent about the matter. :(
> I tried painting stripes on my daughter's rabbit, but it just isn't the same.
It helps if you start with one of these, Dino: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070905
It helps if you start with one of these, Dino: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070905
"Hmm, over twelve hours and nothing new... Aw, what happened to our widdle twolls? Did we'uns hurt their feelings?"
I have better things to do with my life than to attempt to argue circles with individuals who have no interest in acknowledging the other parties viewpoints. Do to the sarcastic and close minded nature of this thread I don't feel it worth my time to bother wasting any more of the precious minutes of my life engaging in it.
Cheers, Xipher
I have better things to do with my life than to attempt to argue circles with individuals who have no interest in acknowledging the other parties viewpoints. Do to the sarcastic and close minded nature of this thread I don't feel it worth my time to bother wasting any more of the precious minutes of my life engaging in it.
Cheers, Xipher
>Do to the sarcastic and close minded nature of this thread I don't feel it worth my time to bother wasting any more of the precious minutes of my life engaging in it.
In other words, yes.
In other words, yes.
> ...no interest in acknowledging the other parties viewpoints.
Oh, I acknowledge your viewpoint. I don't bother responding to viewpoints I don't acknowledge. I just don't consider it valid or worthwhile, since both you and smget seem intent on misrepresenting Carla's statements. Smget more so than you, to be fair.
> Do to the sarcastic and close minded nature of this thread...
Sarcasm is one of my normal reactions when I encounter what I consider idiocy. If you want me to have an open mind to your position on a subject, don't make what I consider idiotic arguments.
> I don't feel it worth my time to bother wasting any more of the precious minutes of my life engaging in it.
Which is perfectly reasonable and understandable. Cheers also.
Oh, I acknowledge your viewpoint. I don't bother responding to viewpoints I don't acknowledge. I just don't consider it valid or worthwhile, since both you and smget seem intent on misrepresenting Carla's statements. Smget more so than you, to be fair.
> Do to the sarcastic and close minded nature of this thread...
Sarcasm is one of my normal reactions when I encounter what I consider idiocy. If you want me to have an open mind to your position on a subject, don't make what I consider idiotic arguments.
> I don't feel it worth my time to bother wasting any more of the precious minutes of my life engaging in it.
Which is perfectly reasonable and understandable. Cheers also.
And yet you're still in business...
The Ad was offensive. Gnull & Voyd is offensive. Mango Parfait is Offensive. Are you on our side, or not?
Too much of the Linux Media is "Linux Media" in name only. When they're not being blantantly FUD-partners with the 900 pound gorilla, you find them being utterly without clue, pandering to the perceived lowest common denominator, without realizing that they're making themselves look like the stereotypes they think their readers are.
Too much of the Linux Media is "Linux Media" in name only. When they're not being blantantly FUD-partners with the 900 pound gorilla, you find them being utterly without clue, pandering to the perceived lowest common denominator, without realizing that they're making themselves look like the stereotypes they think their readers are.
You'd think somebody might try creating a useful, thoughtful publication for people who actually care about Linux.
Contrarian, to be sure, but there might be a market there.
Contrarian, to be sure, but there might be a market there.
> You'd think somebody might try creating a useful, thoughtful publication for people who actually care about Linux.
LXer?
LXer?
>LXer?
LXer certainly fits that description, but I was thinking something less geared at the faithful -- something like Linux Journal pretends to be on occasion. Useful how-tos, etc.
LXer certainly fits that description, but I was thinking something less geared at the faithful -- something like Linux Journal pretends to be on occasion. Useful how-tos, etc.
I would say we are more like a (constantly updated) newspaper than a magazine like LJ.
To put LXer in print would be a waste of trees, it would be seriously out of date within hours of publication.
>Useful how-tos, etc.
We have a link to one of the biggest how-to websites around at the top of the page.
http://www.howtoforge.com/
To put LXer in print would be a waste of trees, it would be seriously out of date within hours of publication.
>Useful how-tos, etc.
We have a link to one of the biggest how-to websites around at the top of the page.
http://www.howtoforge.com/
I'll say it again here...PCLinuxOS Magazine is now circulated by over 20 thousand each month...it's available online and in PDF format AND it isn't always just PCLinuxOS :D
Is it a shameful plug? You bet...I'm proud of the magazine and what they've accomplished.
Is it a shameful plug? You bet...I'm proud of the magazine and what they've accomplished.
Mango Parfait
I agree with a lot of the points you make here. I find it interesting that what is written for Mango Parfait in essence reads just like the comments a Manga author makes on the back pages of a manga (if that is what it is called). A bit of self-denigration, self-importance and referrals to personal affairs. Perhaps Mango is more of an attempt to emulate the mannerism of Manga authors. Yet one could argue that if the writing was eliciting a negative response the author should have write more appropriate content.
a few more LJ nuggets
19 earlier comments in the full thread.
shm:
>> And your high school was 1 in 11,700 in the country
Wrong country. And we're talking about the readership of Linux Journal. My point was that 3% is a significant number.
But anyway, I won't waste any more time on you either... you are exactly the third dumbest person I have ever encountered online.
>> And your high school was 1 in 11,700 in the country
Wrong country. And we're talking about the readership of Linux Journal. My point was that 3% is a significant number.
But anyway, I won't waste any more time on you either... you are exactly the third dumbest person I have ever encountered online.
> I tried really hard to support the guy
Your problem is that you're just too friendly.
Your problem is that you're just too friendly.
>Your problem is that you're just too friendly.
Everybody says that. My sweet nature is always getting me into trouble.
Everybody says that. My sweet nature is always getting me into trouble.
"Wrong country. And we're talking about the readership of Linux Journal."
that's just incredible. You bring up your 'high school analogy' and then you complain about it being off topic ???
"My point was that 3% is a significant number." That may have been your point, but you haven't made it with your high school analogy. And no, no other analogy will do either. now matter how big the base, 3% is 3 per 100, and is below the noise level of most thing you measure, especially as far as 'opinions' goes. The 90K reference readership number is not even that precise. Have you ever heard of significant digits ? in the quoted web page, how many significant digit there are in the 90,000 announced... do you think it is 90000 +/- 1 ? In real life if would be amazing if that number was accurate to +/- 1000. And since it is self-reported for marketing purpose, it is very likely inflated by much more than that.
And BTW. there is absolutely no way that the 90K number would reflect any post-Carla period. There is no way that before the end of August, LJ could know with any serious precision how many paid reader they had for the month. All they can tell you is how many they printed. They cannot possibly know at that point how many will 'come-back' as unsold from the newsstands... Which means that, whatever conclusion you draw from these numbers, they would still tell you nothing about Carla's impact on the financial well-being of LJ.
">> Sometimes the numbers that matter most are not the people you have, but the people you could have if you were just a little smarter.
>True, but that sure doesn't support shmget's argument. It is an informed statement."
Of course... the Ads that LJ do NOT run would miraculously attract 'potential' readers... that where not attracted before the ad was _not_ run, but all the sudden somehow felt that LJ did not run a ad that would have offended them, and flock.... Spooky action at a distance eh ?
Furthermore, 3% is already twice the rate of women developers in Free Software (source: "Anne Østergaard, Women in Free Software, finding from FLOSSPOLS". I don't have handy reliable stats about the user's demographic landscape, but odds are good that LJ is in the ballpark.
[So I guess you have come to the light on one of the reasons for the weakness of your argument when you say
Demographics
# Male: 97% # Female: 3% ]
When I 'say' this, it is not an argument, but quoting a fact summited, in that case, by linuxchick.
You are then attributing to me a dumb argument by jacog. Where did you find me saying,writing or assuming that every women are offended and no man is ?
When I wrote "Sure, that is a valid objection thanks." I was sustaining you objection to jacog argument - which you were responding to (as the quote that preceded the response indicated). and thanking you for a welcomed attempt at a rational thought.
that's just incredible. You bring up your 'high school analogy' and then you complain about it being off topic ???
"My point was that 3% is a significant number." That may have been your point, but you haven't made it with your high school analogy. And no, no other analogy will do either. now matter how big the base, 3% is 3 per 100, and is below the noise level of most thing you measure, especially as far as 'opinions' goes. The 90K reference readership number is not even that precise. Have you ever heard of significant digits ? in the quoted web page, how many significant digit there are in the 90,000 announced... do you think it is 90000 +/- 1 ? In real life if would be amazing if that number was accurate to +/- 1000. And since it is self-reported for marketing purpose, it is very likely inflated by much more than that.
And BTW. there is absolutely no way that the 90K number would reflect any post-Carla period. There is no way that before the end of August, LJ could know with any serious precision how many paid reader they had for the month. All they can tell you is how many they printed. They cannot possibly know at that point how many will 'come-back' as unsold from the newsstands... Which means that, whatever conclusion you draw from these numbers, they would still tell you nothing about Carla's impact on the financial well-being of LJ.
">> Sometimes the numbers that matter most are not the people you have, but the people you could have if you were just a little smarter.
>True, but that sure doesn't support shmget's argument. It is an informed statement."
Of course... the Ads that LJ do NOT run would miraculously attract 'potential' readers... that where not attracted before the ad was _not_ run, but all the sudden somehow felt that LJ did not run a ad that would have offended them, and flock.... Spooky action at a distance eh ?
Furthermore, 3% is already twice the rate of women developers in Free Software (source: "Anne Østergaard, Women in Free Software, finding from FLOSSPOLS". I don't have handy reliable stats about the user's demographic landscape, but odds are good that LJ is in the ballpark.
[So I guess you have come to the light on one of the reasons for the weakness of your argument when you say
Demographics
# Male: 97% # Female: 3% ]
When I 'say' this, it is not an argument, but quoting a fact summited, in that case, by linuxchick.
You are then attributing to me a dumb argument by jacog. Where did you find me saying,writing or assuming that every women are offended and no man is ?
When I wrote "Sure, that is a valid objection thanks." I was sustaining you objection to jacog argument - which you were responding to (as the quote that preceded the response indicated). and thanking you for a welcomed attempt at a rational thought.
> ...You bring up your 'high school analogy' and then you complain about it being off topic...
You know, it would really help if you had some grasp of the language you are trying to argue with. What part of "wrong country" did you not understand?
The rest of your statements aren't worth bothering with. They do more to win the argument for your opposition than they do for you.
You know, it would really help if you had some grasp of the language you are trying to argue with. What part of "wrong country" did you not understand?
The rest of your statements aren't worth bothering with. They do more to win the argument for your opposition than they do for you.
It wasn't even an analogy... just a point of reference to show my own view on the number's significance.
Pfahrrrgh ... I am done with this thread... I am just getting pissed off now. His rational and emotional frame of reference is entirely based on his own gender, his own place of residence - probably his own race, his own income group etc. as well. In fact, he shows a complete inability to think how someone else might feel about a topic.
"I am not upset, neither should you be. I don't think offending more than 2000 people is so bad, neither should you."
Go play with your Action Man.
Pfahrrrgh ... I am done with this thread... I am just getting pissed off now. His rational and emotional frame of reference is entirely based on his own gender, his own place of residence - probably his own race, his own income group etc. as well. In fact, he shows a complete inability to think how someone else might feel about a topic.
"I am not upset, neither should you be. I don't think offending more than 2000 people is so bad, neither should you."
Go play with your Action Man.
jacob wrote:
"I am guessing he's no older than 16"
and
"His rational and emotional frame of reference is entirely based on [...] his own income group[...]"
The pattern here is an Argumentum ad hominem Fallacy combined with few Argumenta ad populum Fallacies. [http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#populum]. Of course "jacog" has absolutely no ideas about my gender, place of residence, race, age, income group, etc. Actually, as shown above, his tripping over his wild guesses every two posts.
jacob wrote: ["I am not upset, neither should you be. I don't think offending more than 2000 people is so bad, neither should you."
Go play with your Action Man. ]
you are inventing quotes. the text above that you put inside double-quote is you own invention and is not a quote. the form in this instance, is called a Strawman fallacy. I can play that game too: "I am upset, so you should be too. I think that 2000 is a big number regardless of the frame of reference and I don't believe in significant digits, confidence intervals nor statistical significance, neither should you".
The pattern here is an Argumentum ad hominem Fallacy combined with few Argumenta ad populum Fallacies. [http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#populum]. Of course "jacog" has absolutely no ideas about my gender, place of residence, race, age, income group, etc. Actually, as shown above, his tripping over his wild guesses every two posts.
jacob wrote: ["I am not upset, neither should you be. I don't think offending more than 2000 people is so bad, neither should you."
Go play with your Action Man. ]
you are inventing quotes. the text above that you put inside double-quote is you own invention and is not a quote. the form in this instance, is called a Strawman fallacy. I can play that game too: "I am upset, so you should be too. I think that 2000 is a big number regardless of the frame of reference and I don't believe in significant digits, confidence intervals nor statistical significance, neither should you".
> I am upset, so you should be too.
I'm not upset. The ad did not bother me at all, and I'm not a Linux Journal subscriber.
I don't care whether you're upset or not. Whether the ad bothers you or not, whether you choose to subscribe to LJ or not, and why you may do so are none of my concern.
What is my concern is your attacking people who are offended by the ad when all they are doing is voicing their concerns and requesting that other people who agree with them do likewise. Whether you like it or not, that's what responsible people do, and I won't stand by while you try to intimidate them into shutting up. Not that you have any hope of intimidating TC in any case, but...
I'm not upset. The ad did not bother me at all, and I'm not a Linux Journal subscriber.
I don't care whether you're upset or not. Whether the ad bothers you or not, whether you choose to subscribe to LJ or not, and why you may do so are none of my concern.
What is my concern is your attacking people who are offended by the ad when all they are doing is voicing their concerns and requesting that other people who agree with them do likewise. Whether you like it or not, that's what responsible people do, and I won't stand by while you try to intimidate them into shutting up. Not that you have any hope of intimidating TC in any case, but...
>What is my concern is your attacking people
My concern, jd, is that you're letting a self-absorbed, self-impressed, non-thinker ruin your day.
Don't let the cockroaches in the basement make you miss the view from the garden.
My concern, jd, is that you're letting a self-absorbed, self-impressed, non-thinker ruin your day.
Don't let the cockroaches in the basement make you miss the view from the garden.
Quoting:"I am upset, so you should be too. I think that 2000 is a big number regardless of the frame of reference and I don't believe in significant digits, confidence intervals nor statistical significance, neither should you"
Um, wasn't your first post in this thread an attempt at statistical analysis? In the other thread too is memory serves. I don't mind your having an opinion differing from nearly every other active poster at LXer, I do however wish you would at least try to be consistent.
Oh wait you were attributing that as a made up quote. I get it now. The reference was just worded poorly enough as to confuse.
I would like to point out though that your attempted analysis of 1 being not enough to make a large enough quorum for Carla to make a "we" statement was flawed from the start. Had you researched even a little bit you would have known that she had the support of many of the active members here at LXer and elsewhere prior to her postings. That sir is enough to deflate your argument from the start.
Currently you seem to be engaged in a regimen of expanding the statistical base of use until you reach a point that agrees with your position via numerical analysis. Much like a politician will poll a specific demographic to show support for his ideology, a more general and less specific base will show the exact opposite.
p.s. dino don't worry about me getting worked up here, I find this guy entertaining in an semi educated caveman sort of way. I'd like to see just how deep a hole he willing to dig for himself for entertainment value alone.
> I'd like to see just how deep a hole he willing to dig for himself for entertainment value alone.
Just remember to throw some lime down into the pit. We must be sanitary.
Just remember to throw some lime down into the pit. We must be sanitary.
Remember you want quicklime, not dolomite lime. It's a common mistake, and amusing to anyone who is not downwind.
>Remember you want quicklime, not dolomite lime. It's a common mistake, and amusing to anyone who is not downwind.
Good catch, though I don't know the difference, I'm sure I would see the difference in results.
Good catch, though I don't know the difference, I'm sure I would see the difference in results.
Correction:
To date shmget has been applying stochastic analysis not statistical.
To date shmget has been applying stochastic analysis not statistical.
Quoting: stochastic analysis 1. n. [Reservoir Characterization]
An analysis related to a process involving a randomly determined sequence of observations, each of which is considered as a sample of one element from a probability distribution.
> My concern, jd, is that you're letting a self-absorbed, self-impressed, non-thinker ruin your day.
Naw. A 160 mile round trip drive to reimage two machines, fix two minor user problems, and attempt to get some new software working on a machine (unsuccessfully, so far); while responding to 3 other phone calls from the office I just left is what ruins my day. He's minor.
Not that I'm complaining or anything. Just another normal day as a support tech.
Naw. A 160 mile round trip drive to reimage two machines, fix two minor user problems, and attempt to get some new software working on a machine (unsuccessfully, so far); while responding to 3 other phone calls from the office I just left is what ruins my day. He's minor.
Not that I'm complaining or anything. Just another normal day as a support tech.
"Um, wasn't your first post in this thread an attempt at statistical analysis?"
No.
"In the other thread too is memory serves." Memory does not serve you well, I'm afraid.
"I don't mind your having an opinion differing from nearly every other active poster at LXer" Me neither. Argumentum ad Numerum [http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#numerum] is no comfort to me.
"The reference was just worded poorly enough as to confuse." which part of "you are inventing quotes[...]the form[..] is called a Strawman fallacy. **I can play that game too**:" did confuse you ?
[Had you researched even a little bit you would have known that she had the support of many of the active members here at LXer and elsewhere prior to her postings.]
the only number she offered was 30, as the number of signatures she collected for a petition to LJ. she also mentioned an untold number of 'others' that did not join her petition but complained solo. So, even if that was the only sticking point, that is still very far from the representativity she appear to claims.
[That sir is enough to deflate your argument from the start.] Even if she was actually representing a significant number of readers - in fact even more so, I would still argue that going from - Don't be mad, our server won't go down on you either - to - QSOL promise a blowjob for every purchase - is complete non-sens. And even if that egregious connection could be made, I would still defend the idea that thought polices are bad(tm), that anytime, anywhere, someone campaign to forbid/restrict/chill speech in the name of 'moral value', that lead to bad things, and the most immediate action I can take is to actually subscribe to LJ, which I did. and that is what, was the content of my first post.
Along the way there has been distraction like "3% of 90000 is 2700 women. Put 2700 people in a room and tell me they are too insignifact a number to worry about pissing off. My high school only had 900 students."
"Currently you seem to be engaged in a regimen of expanding the statistical base of use until you reach a point that agrees with your position via numerical analysis"
you are confusing me with linuxchicks:
"I know that astute LXer readers will dispute a direct cause-and-effect from the issues I've raised, LJ's declining circulation, and the failures of other projects by the same publisher." ... Here are some interesting numbers:"
even inventing a new one along the way: priusquam hoc ergo propter hoc. it happened before it therefore it happened because of it
"I find this guy entertaining in an semi educated caveman sort of way."
Again, Carla's words are appropriate here:
"Spineful Living, lesson 7: Assumptions Make....
Even in my old age, it still surprises me how often people like to think they know everything about me, and feel free to say the most obnoxious things."
"In the other thread too is memory serves." Memory does not serve you well, I'm afraid.
"I don't mind your having an opinion differing from nearly every other active poster at LXer" Me neither. Argumentum ad Numerum [http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#numerum] is no comfort to me.
"The reference was just worded poorly enough as to confuse." which part of "you are inventing quotes[...]the form[..] is called a Strawman fallacy. **I can play that game too**:" did confuse you ?
[Had you researched even a little bit you would have known that she had the support of many of the active members here at LXer and elsewhere prior to her postings.]
the only number she offered was 30, as the number of signatures she collected for a petition to LJ. she also mentioned an untold number of 'others' that did not join her petition but complained solo. So, even if that was the only sticking point, that is still very far from the representativity she appear to claims.
[That sir is enough to deflate your argument from the start.] Even if she was actually representing a significant number of readers - in fact even more so, I would still argue that going from - Don't be mad, our server won't go down on you either - to - QSOL promise a blowjob for every purchase - is complete non-sens. And even if that egregious connection could be made, I would still defend the idea that thought polices are bad(tm), that anytime, anywhere, someone campaign to forbid/restrict/chill speech in the name of 'moral value', that lead to bad things, and the most immediate action I can take is to actually subscribe to LJ, which I did. and that is what, was the content of my first post.
Along the way there has been distraction like "3% of 90000 is 2700 women. Put 2700 people in a room and tell me they are too insignifact a number to worry about pissing off. My high school only had 900 students."
"Currently you seem to be engaged in a regimen of expanding the statistical base of use until you reach a point that agrees with your position via numerical analysis"
you are confusing me with linuxchicks:
"I know that astute LXer readers will dispute a direct cause-and-effect from the issues I've raised, LJ's declining circulation, and the failures of other projects by the same publisher." ... Here are some interesting numbers:"
even inventing a new one along the way: priusquam hoc ergo propter hoc. it happened before it therefore it happened because of it
"I find this guy entertaining in an semi educated caveman sort of way."
Again, Carla's words are appropriate here:
"Spineful Living, lesson 7: Assumptions Make....
Even in my old age, it still surprises me how often people like to think they know everything about me, and feel free to say the most obnoxious things."
Aw geez, shmget, what's your point? Other than you enjoy cobbling together random non sequiturs and calling them rational arguments.
Trying to "prove" that something is offensive is entirely subjective; it's all bound up in history and experience. It's not a matter of proof anyway, as dino (I think) mentioned lo so many comments ago somewhere. The reality is what people believe and how they behave; in this case, noisily. A smart publisher wouldn't wait for a public fuss; smart businesspeople pay close attention to customer feedback.
You don't care about Linux Journal at all, just like all the other foamy-mouths ranting about "this is not offensive, get over it", who are all mad over the 30-word summaries on what's been written about this, and are expending considerable energy trying to prove me "wrong." That's a loser strategy. It's uninformed and boring. It's like two little kids locked in an endless "are too" "are not" "are too" "are not" "are too" "are not" cycle.
You're not doing very well as disproving my business case, either. I'm really not sure what you're saying- coherence helps, if you can find some. If you're saying that a single ad is supposed to reverse a 7-year decline, that kind of thinking just might make you a management candidate at LJ.
Trying to "prove" that something is offensive is entirely subjective; it's all bound up in history and experience. It's not a matter of proof anyway, as dino (I think) mentioned lo so many comments ago somewhere. The reality is what people believe and how they behave; in this case, noisily. A smart publisher wouldn't wait for a public fuss; smart businesspeople pay close attention to customer feedback.
You don't care about Linux Journal at all, just like all the other foamy-mouths ranting about "this is not offensive, get over it", who are all mad over the 30-word summaries on what's been written about this, and are expending considerable energy trying to prove me "wrong." That's a loser strategy. It's uninformed and boring. It's like two little kids locked in an endless "are too" "are not" "are too" "are not" "are too" "are not" cycle.
You're not doing very well as disproving my business case, either. I'm really not sure what you're saying- coherence helps, if you can find some. If you're saying that a single ad is supposed to reverse a 7-year decline, that kind of thinking just might make you a management candidate at LJ.
On a side note TC, PCLinuxOS magazine now has a circulation of over 20 thousand :D
shmget is like a well designed HID, his buttons are easy to push.
So... confession time... who here gets a kick out of seeing him all riled up? Or am I the only one behaving in an infantile manner... haha... ahem, ok... off to go play with my Action Man now... he has a dinner date with the Weebles.
So... confession time... who here gets a kick out of seeing him all riled up? Or am I the only one behaving in an infantile manner... haha... ahem, ok... off to go play with my Action Man now... he has a dinner date with the Weebles.
> Or am I the only one behaving in an infantile manner
You're the only one. The rest of us are engaged in a serious study of button-pushing and it's impact on the adolescent mind.
You're the only one. The rest of us are engaged in a serious study of button-pushing and it's impact on the adolescent mind.
I agree.
Your handling of HTML leaves much to be disired, as I found trying to write a comment.
I agree.
See my post, "Linux Journal Lost South of Calais"
http://daveshields.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/linux-journal-lo...
It also calls attention to a problem in lxer's own garden, and also offers a cautionary note on which gardens can be trusted.
thanks, dave
http://daveshields.wordpress.com
I agree.
See my post, "Linux Journal Lost South of Calais"
http://daveshields.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/linux-journal-lo...
It also calls attention to a problem in lxer's own garden, and also offers a cautionary note on which gardens can be trusted.
thanks, dave
http://daveshields.wordpress.com
Quoting:Your handling of HTML leaves much to be disired
That's probably because our comment system doesn't handle HTML at all, aside from bold and italics tags.
Most sites do handle a larger subset of HTML, notably WordPress, which is also powered by PHP.
thanks, dave
thanks, dave
Post a comment
A free account is needed to post. Write your comment here first: your text is kept in this browser while you sign up or log in, and is waiting for you when you come back.
Your message:Markdown: **bold**, *italic*, [text](https://link), - lists, > quotes, $x^2$ for math. Formatting help
Sign up and post (it is free) or Log in and post
|
|
dthacker