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Linux Today founder calls for a boycott of Linux Today
Back in 1997, prior to the foundation of LWN.net and LinuxWorld.com, good online daily Linux news sources were non-existent. As a result of the growth of this community, news websites were inevitable. The first one that I am aware of was Three Point's Linux News, founded, managed and published by your humble editor. |
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Comments (30)
Full Agreement
I couldn't agree more. A site that I used to frequent has had the same problem. If you go to linuxplanet.com you will find the same ads that dave is talking about. This kind of offensive and contradictory material was not there at the beginning, say when Dennis E. Powell was contributing. I really enjoyed going to that site for reliable and relatively recent aritlces/opinions, but not any longer. Words cannot express my frustration.
In all fairness, I believe that they are associated with JupiterWeb as well. This does not excuse the bad advertising, though. Is this kind of thing going to be the new norm? I certainly hope not.
OOPS, I don't ...kill this post.--- POST DELETED
This message was edited Aug 2, 2004 12:59 AM
I Respectfully Disagree
Although I can understand the heightened emotions and clenched fists the Microsoft ads can cause, I tend to be much more pragmatic about them. First, I love to see MS burn up that big cash reserve on completely useless endeavors. Does anyone really think that the average Linux user would be swayed in the least by those ads? One of the reasons that many of us use Linux is because we've used MS products in the past, and we've learned that the hype and promises from MS never turn out to be true.
From reading Linux Today, we also know that those 'independent studies' touted in those ads are nothing more than MS sponsored FUD.
In the end, if Microsoft spending ad dollars helps keep my favorite Linux news site in business, well then I'll tip my hat to them in thanks, continue to ignore their products, and look forward to the day when their market share has dropped to the point where they can no longer afford to buy useless advertising.
From reading Linux Today, we also know that those 'independent studies' touted in those ads are nothing more than MS sponsored FUD.
In the end, if Microsoft spending ad dollars helps keep my favorite Linux news site in business, well then I'll tip my hat to them in thanks, continue to ignore their products, and look forward to the day when their market share has dropped to the point where they can no longer afford to buy useless advertising.
"Does anyone really think that the average Linux user would be swayed in the least by those ads?"
This is the difficulty linux is having getting past being a boys club... There should be no "average linux user"... The average hardcore PC user wasn't swayed by the "Convert to a mac" series of ads.. but thats not to say that mac use didn't increase in leaps and bounds....
I'm finding it difficult getting into linux (although believe me I'm interested) and microsoft propoganda isn't making my decision any easier... Its very easy for a multi billion dollar empire to crush open source (and microsoft is actively seeking that) using strategically placed, manipulative (simplistic) advertising.
*WE* know that the independent studies are MS sponsored... but the average user doesn't... Thats microsoft's strength.. they don't overestimate peoples attention spans.
MS market share will keep increasing as people are fooled into thinking that they are getting a better deal with big brother watching their back and 'free' hardware.. Linux just has to open its eyes and start backing ONE name for the end user, start offering a clearer path to swapping to linux (it has to be easy.. don't say it is easy.. it has to be painfully easy - you're fighting apathy here) and stop acknowledging Microsofts existence... Linux *IS* the mainstream...
I'm finding it difficult getting into linux (although believe me I'm interested) and microsoft propoganda isn't making my decision any easier... Its very easy for a multi billion dollar empire to crush open source (and microsoft is actively seeking that) using strategically placed, manipulative (simplistic) advertising.
*WE* know that the independent studies are MS sponsored... but the average user doesn't... Thats microsoft's strength.. they don't overestimate peoples attention spans.
MS market share will keep increasing as people are fooled into thinking that they are getting a better deal with big brother watching their back and 'free' hardware.. Linux just has to open its eyes and start backing ONE name for the end user, start offering a clearer path to swapping to linux (it has to be easy.. don't say it is easy.. it has to be painfully easy - you're fighting apathy here) and stop acknowledging Microsofts existence... Linux *IS* the mainstream...
I recently had a potential convert to linux mention that they were a bit nervous abou it cos "Linux is in trouble, isn't it?" (almost direct quote). FUD *does* work to some extent, have no doubts about that. And I have doubts about any news site that's broadcasting "independent surveys" that I believe to be biased crud. I know that it's "only" adverts, but Linux Today has attached their name to the ads. FUD works both ways, and contaminates all it touches.
The parent made a good point about apathy. I have a friend called Ed. He actively avoids anything that could possibly brand him as a compsci, but he has recently started using Mozilla rather than IE because he sees it as being clearly superior. The day that Ed starts using Linux is the day that I will be fully convinced that Linux is mainstream. Until then, keep working on your GUIs and manpages people.
The parent made a good point about apathy. I have a friend called Ed. He actively avoids anything that could possibly brand him as a compsci, but he has recently started using Mozilla rather than IE because he sees it as being clearly superior. The day that Ed starts using Linux is the day that I will be fully convinced that Linux is mainstream. Until then, keep working on your GUIs and manpages people.
I concur with brewer13210. It gives me great pleasure to have MSFT finance a (in my opinion) good news site.
Of course, if LT/JupierMedia becomes too dependent on MSFT advertising, things could get "interesting", but we should cross that bridge only when we come to it, and not before.
Of course, if LT/JupierMedia becomes too dependent on MSFT advertising, things could get "interesting", but we should cross that bridge only when we come to it, and not before.
I recall this same argument with the Linux Magazine a while back when they started accepting ads from MS. There were many for AND many against the ads. I recall replying to one of the ads via email and thanking MS marketing for sponsoring a magazine for Linux:) IMO we have to take these situations with a grain of salt. If LT has sold out to MS influence, then in a short time we will see this and remove LT from one of our Mozilla startup tabs. If not, then this story will die and LT readers will enjoy more Linux press.
Live long and prosper:)
Thanks,
Dale
Live long and prosper:)
Thanks,
Dale
Who pays attention to adverts ? One of my favourite websites here in Australia, has those same Windows Server 2003 -v- Linux adverts on it all the time. I don't go there for the advert, I go there for the content of the webpages.
If Micro$oft expect to influence me into buying their webserver software, I have some awful news for them. I'm not in IT. I'm not a web developer. I don't buy servers for anyone. I'm just a computer hobbyist who likes using Linux and has 2 out of 3 PC's running it. My wife is sitting 4 feet to my left, tapping away on the one MS Windows PC in the house. If they want to waste money (as so many have pointed out) advertising to the Linux community, they will probably get the same result as spammers. One in a million might actually pay attention.
As for Dave (Linux Today founder) : I understand his feelings. But Dave, don't sweat it. Micro$oft is well on the way to pricing itself out of it's market. The "facts" presented in the advertisement seem unsupportable in view of the fact that they are steadily losing market share in the server market, as far as I know.
If Micro$oft expect to influence me into buying their webserver software, I have some awful news for them. I'm not in IT. I'm not a web developer. I don't buy servers for anyone. I'm just a computer hobbyist who likes using Linux and has 2 out of 3 PC's running it. My wife is sitting 4 feet to my left, tapping away on the one MS Windows PC in the house. If they want to waste money (as so many have pointed out) advertising to the Linux community, they will probably get the same result as spammers. One in a million might actually pay attention.
As for Dave (Linux Today founder) : I understand his feelings. But Dave, don't sweat it. Micro$oft is well on the way to pricing itself out of it's market. The "facts" presented in the advertisement seem unsupportable in view of the fact that they are steadily losing market share in the server market, as far as I know.
I'm with you, Dave.
I loved Linux Today during your tenure. I had no idea this site existed until now--glad to see you, glad to see you're still on the winning team!
Linux Today has my boycott. I can't stand ads in general, but this is intolerable on a Linux site. This message was edited Jun 4, 2004 7:02 PM
Linux Today has my boycott. I can't stand ads in general, but this is intolerable on a Linux site. This message was edited Jun 4, 2004 7:02 PM
"I can't stand ads in general, but this is intolerable on a Linux site."
Christ. Are you a child or a socialist? (Is there a difference?)
Since bandwidth is *not* free, it must be paid for somehow. The only three ways are subscriptions, advertisements and subsidies/gifts. Thus, I tolerate banner ads, and use Mozilla's pop-up browser blocker to minimize the intrusive crud.
Christ. Are you a child or a socialist? (Is there a difference?)
Since bandwidth is *not* free, it must be paid for somehow. The only three ways are subscriptions, advertisements and subsidies/gifts. Thus, I tolerate banner ads, and use Mozilla's pop-up browser blocker to minimize the intrusive crud.
Users of Free Software shouldn't be seeing Flash ads
Flash is proprietary software and therefore GNU/Linux users who exclusively use free software [http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html] shouldn't even be able to view these ads, I know I can't. How are we to help spread the use of free software if we continue to use and support proprietary software whether it is produced by Microsoft, Macromedia, or whoever?
Not all of us are zealots that want to have nothing but a free system. I just want a system that works and that I enjoy being in. Do I care if it's 100% free? That's a big NO.
I'm not too sure about the boycott of Linux Today because I found those nasty flash ads on MANY of the Linux sites. With due respect for sn1per007 I have a boxed set Linux Distribution from Mandrake and it comes with the Macromedia flash installed. It only took a couple of days of the Microsoft ads to get me to UNINSTALL Macromedia. Now if I can figure out what to do with those damned pop-ups inviting me to go load it every time I view a page that uses Marcomedia.
However.. having said that, I will join the boycott because it shows unity and the Linux community needs to really show unity in the face of the never ending Microsoft attacks.
However.. having said that, I will join the boycott because it shows unity and the Linux community needs to really show unity in the face of the never ending Microsoft attacks.
The suggestion wasn't that we boycott the site because it used flash ads, but because the subject of those flash ads was (often) Microsoft sponsored lies about how Windows is better than Linux.
Which we know isn't true.
By boycotting the site, if enough people stop visiting them, we send the message, "gather your advertising revenue from elsewhere" (say, from SuSE, RedHat, Mandrake and others who could advertise there) or at least exercise some control over what you advertise.
The use of FlashPlayer, RealPlayer et al is a personal choice and doesn't really have an impact on this issue. (IMO)
cat LXerLinuxToday
Already switched from LinuxToday to LXer (and from linuxgazette.com to http://linuxgazette.net).
Thank you. Luca
Note: the original title of this post was "cat LXer > LinuxToday". I'm sorry, the redirection character doesn't appear. This message was edited Jun 5, 2004 4:06 AM
Thank you. Luca
Note: the original title of this post was "cat LXer > LinuxToday". I'm sorry, the redirection character doesn't appear. This message was edited Jun 5, 2004 4:06 AM
Enterprise Linux versus Windows 2003 Server
YES , I share Dave's opinion regarding Linux Today.
However, from my very personal standpoint:
The core issue at this time is not "Enterprise Linux versus Windows 2003 Server".It is "Enterprise Linux versus SunOS & HP-UX & AIX &..."
This message was edited Jun 5, 2004 10:02 AM
But you're not hearing all kinds of FUD from Sun (maybe some), HP, and IBM. Microsoft, on the other hand, seems to live to trash Linux.
dave
dave
That's because they're scared.
Do they actually control the ads? I do not think so.
From my understanding, internet.com sells space to entities such as double-click, etc. Double-click, etc sells the ad space to different companies. As part of the agreement, internet.com has to accept all the ads as a package deal.
I fired up IE since I have ad blocking in Mozilla/Firebird and today there is a Bellsouth, McData, Internet Planet, and a vBulletin ad. No Microsoft ads I could see.
Sour grapes, anyone? Regret selling the site?
Those third-party ad agencies always give publishers the chance to block companies from being advertised on your website.
"Sour grapes, anyone? Regret selling the site?"
Not at all - as I said in the editorial, the folks at internet.com truly are good people. I like most of them personally. I'm speaking as a member of the Linux community. The fact that I did start the site with Dwight does hopefully give some weight to my words, but I certainly don't regret not having authority. I'm glad I sold it to them, and, with the exception of the advertisements they have, I'm happy with what they have done with it over the past 5 years.
Dave
"Sour grapes, anyone? Regret selling the site?"
Not at all - as I said in the editorial, the folks at internet.com truly are good people. I like most of them personally. I'm speaking as a member of the Linux community. The fact that I did start the site with Dwight does hopefully give some weight to my words, but I certainly don't regret not having authority. I'm glad I sold it to them, and, with the exception of the advertisements they have, I'm happy with what they have done with it over the past 5 years.
Dave
"Here are my points for the Linux community:
1. Do we want to continue to support a Microsoft-friendly (and anti-Linux) website by continuing to read it daily?
2. Would we be comfortable sending our boss and/or other decision makers in our company to this website for Linux-related news and information?
3. Can we continue to trust this website with unbiased news, now that we see how close to Microsoft they are?
It's easy to say that these are just ads, but the truth is, Linux Today is now being sponsored/funded by Microsoft, and they are cheerfully placing blatantly anti-Linux advertisements on their home page. This is an outrage that must be stopped."
1. They are in business and have sites/forums for all different kinds of subjects. 2. "how close to Microsoft they are" makes it sound as if they are a Microsoft subsidiary. After looking at their homepage, I do not think so. 3. I would be comfortable sending anyone to the site. If they are basing personal and business decisions on advertising, so what? That is their right. 4. I disagree the Justlinux forum is "anti-linux". You know there is a BIG difference between a Linux fanatic and a Linux advocate. I do not like fanatics- they usually end up hurting the cause they are fanatical about. I am not supporting the boycott, I do not think this is a fight between good and evil, God and the Devil, or right or wrong. It is a difference of opinion about operating systems and software development models. Not the most important thing on this planet.
1. Do we want to continue to support a Microsoft-friendly (and anti-Linux) website by continuing to read it daily?
2. Would we be comfortable sending our boss and/or other decision makers in our company to this website for Linux-related news and information?
3. Can we continue to trust this website with unbiased news, now that we see how close to Microsoft they are?
It's easy to say that these are just ads, but the truth is, Linux Today is now being sponsored/funded by Microsoft, and they are cheerfully placing blatantly anti-Linux advertisements on their home page. This is an outrage that must be stopped."
1. They are in business and have sites/forums for all different kinds of subjects. 2. "how close to Microsoft they are" makes it sound as if they are a Microsoft subsidiary. After looking at their homepage, I do not think so. 3. I would be comfortable sending anyone to the site. If they are basing personal and business decisions on advertising, so what? That is their right. 4. I disagree the Justlinux forum is "anti-linux". You know there is a BIG difference between a Linux fanatic and a Linux advocate. I do not like fanatics- they usually end up hurting the cause they are fanatical about. I am not supporting the boycott, I do not think this is a fight between good and evil, God and the Devil, or right or wrong. It is a difference of opinion about operating systems and software development models. Not the most important thing on this planet.
Disgusting ...
thats what it is! But it is the inevitable result of total commercialization of this once proud website. Certainly Linux Today could evaluate what is 'appropriate' and what is 'inappropriate' in terms of advertizing. In my opinion, infomercials (MS funded 'independent studies' and the like) of the type commonly employed by Microsoft are questionable in the first place. To allow them to run on any site centered around any non-Microsoft OS shows both bad taste and bad judgment on the part of the host site. Beginning in 1999, I would read LinuxToday daily and often post comments. Anyone frequenting the site these days will notice that even though I still gloss over it, I seldom post comments anymore, let alone submitting contributions. And its not just the Microsoft issue. It's the fact that I just don't find that much news there that interests me anymore. They have evolved a policy of holding up and sitting on any news that they decide to cover internally and then they only publish their internal piece. AND they tend to focus attention on their own internal editorial productions even when they are obnoxious and irritating to the community. Anyone remember Dennis whats his name? While I probably won't be 'boycotting' the site, I certainly won't be spending much time there nor going out of my way to buy from their advertisers. So over the past several years I have been spending more and more time at pclinuxonline.com and other more useful news sites. And now Dave is back! YESS! Go Dave! As of today lxer is discovered and bookmarked. Welcome back Dave! We wish you the best!
I'm truly delighted to discover this site. Like you say, Dave is back! Yea!!!
I have been really annoyed by the MS FUD^Wads on Linuxtoday. I've also been really annoyed with the way LT just rolls over and dies on weekends and holidays and when the wind is blowing from a certain direction. I always felt that Dave's heart was in it in a way that I don't think Brian's is. I'm definitely switching out my bookmarks.
I have been really annoyed by the MS FUD^Wads on Linuxtoday. I've also been really annoyed with the way LT just rolls over and dies on weekends and holidays and when the wind is blowing from a certain direction. I always felt that Dave's heart was in it in a way that I don't think Brian's is. I'm definitely switching out my bookmarks.
I just go about what I feel
- and it feels wrong.
Those are the people that funded SCO. Those are the people that destroyed/closed-down good companies.
It's not blind zealotry but a question of simple respect and one's dignity.
If its a question about funding I rather be closed down than have false propaganda rotating on a site of mine.
Anyway, this will be my new place.
If its a question about funding I rather be closed down than have false propaganda rotating on a site of mine.
Anyway, this will be my new place.
Then lets be consistent
If we are going to boycott Linux Today - then we need also to boycott all of the OSDN sites because they have a Microsoft ad on virtually every page.
I agree with that. I quit reading Newsforge long before I stopped reading LT. Newsforge was for a combination of (1) advertising proprietary software that wouldn't even run on Linux if you tried and (2) just some of the poorest quality drivel that I have ever seen by what appears to be people trapped in a Microsoft world.
Agree Dave, but actually...
I HAVE boycotted LT already ! Since you launched lxer, basically, I've never gone back to LT (I wonder how true for others ?). Frankly, I've never seen any FLOSS/GNU/Linux news on LT in the last two years which wasn't 'broken' by more superior sites like lwn, varlinux, groklaw, or...lxer ! To me, LT has become irrelevant - I'm not sure internet.com should't just 'pack it in' for linux news
Not to minimize your main point, IMHO it IS bad editorial judgement on LTs part to postion those ads as they do. I do realize many business newcomers and manager-types who are digging into gnu/linux might be confused by such ads.
Not to minimize your main point, IMHO it IS bad editorial judgement on LTs part to postion those ads as they do. I do realize many business newcomers and manager-types who are digging into gnu/linux might be confused by such ads.
Ditto. I stopped reading LT after I read lxer for a few days.
I guess I boycotted LT before this article was written so I didn't even *know* about this article until now. I have a new site for which to gather my Linux news. Thanks Dave!
The rant got linked on Newsforge
. . . where I saw it and then found your site. You might consider blowing your top a little more often.
Maybe the issue should have been as a topic for debate, i.e., ask "Is it right for LT to host anti-Linux ads and should they be boycotted?" -- But I know what it's like to have an idea and get carried away.
Maybe the issue should have been as a topic for debate, i.e., ask "Is it right for LT to host anti-Linux ads and should they be boycotted?" -- But I know what it's like to have an idea and get carried away.
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